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Ouch! And more Runout adjustments

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  • Dan Andersson
    I had a hard stop a couple of days ago. Operator brainmelt as usual but it s been a long time since my last one so I guess it was a statistically required
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 4, 2012
      I had a hard stop a couple of days ago. Operator brainmelt as usual but it's been a long time
      since my last one so I guess it was a statistically required event.

      So, I have to recalibrate the micRO to get rid of the resulting runout this long weekend.

      I'm planning to take some snapshots during the process if anyone else is bothered to see
      how it can be done.

      The "hard stop" wasn't really a full stop, "merely" a racket of sparks and noise. The spindle/toolholder became misaligned so I need to adjust the runout again.

      While making a double sided PCB, I forgoy I had "edges" switched on so I tried to mill into
      the fixture pins while milling the second side of the PCB. The milling pins I use is broken carbide drills.

      I have now tried milling carbide with a carbide tool. I didn't burn down the garage but I've never seen so much sparks emanating from something so little.

      Also, I'm considering changing the emergency stop function to: Switch off spindle motor first, Home the Z axis with max speed - then stop all the other processes or just shut down the maions supply to the mill and spindle motor.

      //Dan
    • Dan
      ... Yes please. Would be much appreciated. If I understand your directions pretty much anyone else should be able to! :^)
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 4, 2012
        --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm planning to take some snapshots during the process if anyone else is bothered to see how it can be done.
        >
        Yes please. Would be much appreciated. If I understand your directions pretty much anyone else should be able to! :^)
      • Dan Andersson
        ? That was easy?! It s possible to adjust the Y axis runout ( the gantry ) as well as the X axis by adding shims. I happened to have car top valve adjustment
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 4, 2012
          ? That was easy?!

          It's possible to adjust the Y axis runout ( the gantry ) as well as the X axis by adding shims. I happened to have car top valve adjustment shims for an old sportscar in my metric car junk box.

          Just release the two top screws on the motor mount. By placing shims between the mount left or right side, Y runout adjustment can be done. By adding shims between the Z block upper part and the tool mount, a good adjustment of the X runout can be done.

          You can easily get rid on a huge amount of runout this way.

          I'm going to order a new box of shim just to have on the shelf.

          It should be easy to add some kind of grub screw solution here but...

          The grub scre adjustment on the Z block is for fine adjustment.

          I'm looking into building/setting up a measure fixture with Johansson Pass bits to enable max accuracy of the adjustment process. These are also called "Slip Gauges" and comes in both metric and imperial sizes.

          We Swedes call the Johansson Pass Bits because he invented them!

          The surfaces are so exact that by "slipping" two pieces together, they stick together by the force of air pressure. If you have a 1mm and a 0.5mm gauge put together, they are so tight that you don't loose accuracy because of the joint.

          ////

          I'll try to take some snaps when I get the new shim.

          //Danand

          On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 15:51:37 -0000
          "Dan" <DanDurachko@...> wrote:

          > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I'm planning to take some snapshots during the process if anyone else is bothered to see how it can be done.
          > >
          > Yes please. Would be much appreciated. If I understand your directions pretty much anyone else should be able to! :^)
          >
        • Dan Andersson
          I found plastic shim. It s easier to cut than steel shim. http://www.stephensgaskets.co.uk/AssortedShimPacks.html Not to expensive either. You can find this
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 4, 2012
            I found plastic shim. It's easier to cut than steel shim.

            http://www.stephensgaskets.co.uk/AssortedShimPacks.html

            Not to expensive either.

            You can find this kind of stuff in the US and elsewhere to of course.

            I like the shim solution as no modifications is required on the bot!

            //Danand

            On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:18:30 +0100
            Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:

            >
            > ? That was easy?!
            >
            > It's possible to adjust the Y axis runout ( the gantry ) as well as the X axis by adding shims. I happened to have car top valve adjustment shims for an old sportscar in my metric car junk box.
            >
            > Just release the two top screws on the motor mount. By placing shims between the mount left or right side, Y runout adjustment can be done. By adding shims between the Z block upper part and the tool mount, a good adjustment of the X runout can be done.
            >
            > You can easily get rid on a huge amount of runout this way.
            >
            > I'm going to order a new box of shim just to have on the shelf.
            >
            > It should be easy to add some kind of grub screw solution here but...
            >
            > The grub scre adjustment on the Z block is for fine adjustment.
            >
            > I'm looking into building/setting up a measure fixture with Johansson Pass bits to enable max accuracy of the adjustment process. These are also called "Slip Gauges" and comes in both metric and imperial sizes.
            >
            > We Swedes call the Johansson Pass Bits because he invented them!
            >
            > The surfaces are so exact that by "slipping" two pieces together, they stick together by the force of air pressure. If you have a 1mm and a 0.5mm gauge put together, they are so tight that you don't loose accuracy because of the joint.
            >
            > ////
            >
            > I'll try to take some snaps when I get the new shim.
            >
            > //Danand
            >
            > On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 15:51:37 -0000
            > "Dan" <DanDurachko@...> wrote:
            >
            > > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I'm planning to take some snapshots during the process if anyone else is bothered to see how it can be done.
            > > >
            > > Yes please. Would be much appreciated. If I understand your directions pretty much anyone else should be able to! :^)
            > >
          • Dan Andersson
            I managed to spend a couple of hours with the micRO today without freezing the proverbial off. It s still to chilly here in the North of the UK for longer
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 5, 2012
              I managed to spend a couple of hours with the micRO today without freezing the proverbial off.
              It's still to chilly here in the North of the UK for longer garage session but the sun is more warming now.

              The main purpose was to shim up the bot properly to eliminate the "static" runout.

              The M3 is to big and with a way to weak base plate to allow for a full surface runout
              adjustment.

              The surface I have the M3 resting on is not entirely flat so I can measure distortion of
              various numbers over he surface. By just placing the hand on with of the corners or anywhere
              on the base, the runout changes.

              I tested how dull tooling affects the runout as well today.
              Using worn bend mills pushes the base down when milling a flat surface so much the base flexes
              and a new cut is visible at a second run on the same coordinates.
              This effect decreases at the bot corners and more or less cease to be a problem with new and sharp tools.

              The grub screws at the Z-block changes the X axis runout ( my Y axis is the gantry axis ).
              The change in Y axis by tightening of the grubs are minimal.

              Adding shim between the tool holder and Z block makes a larger difference than the grubs as expected.
              Easing and tightening the two Z block screws to many times means I have to fin slightly larger and/or longer screws - the threads are going. BE CAREFUL! The original screws are way to shallow!

              Conclusion based upon todays tests:

              Higher surface accuracy at low or high X. Best surface accuracy at high/low X and high/low Y.

              Tramming the bot is not enough. I need to introduce a "squaring" procedure instead. Tramming is good enough for shallow works like milling PCB's and shallow 3D profiles..

              I must prioritize getting a new base. My concrete base is to heavuy and creates dust all the time. It's just now good enough surface quality to work ok.

              I'm looking at bolting down the base on a thick and stiff material to prevent the need to replace the base plate all together. The rubber foot solution I use now is not good enough when maximum
              surface quality is required.

              To make life even more interesting today, my flex shaft started to oscillate and that introduced rather big runout tracks. Conclusion - flex shaft cannot be used and trusted when high surface quality is required. I'm looking at a vacuum driven turbine now - maybe maybe...

              As the surface where I have my base plate on is uneven, I might have to shim the bot corner blocks.
              But this will be bad and not creating a uniform runout of the full surface.

              Questions arized:

              Do I adjust for max accuracy only at a smaller area of the bot?
              What is the min/max values for the effect of the Z block grubs?
              How much is the dynamic base flex when milling?

              Todo:

              A full base logged surface plot. i need to write up a python program for this, should n't be that difficult.

              Prioritize the work on getting a new ER11 spindle without a flex shaft drive. ER16 is to large but maybe... I'd prefer top keep the sindle OD on 1". Watercooling? Maybe buit I need to add cooling of the tool.

              Get a price for a 26" by 26" and 1" alu "flat" sheet to act as a rigid base for the base...
              Or possibly a granite slab.

              Ideally, a full base replacement with a T-slotted stiffer base. The holes we use now is embarrassingly bad.

              I need to buy a full set of 1/4" and 6mm tools to replace the rather worn bits I have.
              And I'm not even contemplating buying any cheaply made bits this time. There are reasons good
              bits costs!

              Luckily, the bot will pay some it's dues and generete some stuff I can invoice. That will pay
              for a batch of new and sharp tools.

              I'm contemplating building a 100% enclosure with cooling and vacuum in/outlets. I'll look into
              the cost when the bot generated invoices are being paid.

              I have to admit the bot has been generating some 5 grand worth of invoices so the darn thing have at least paid the hardware bill now ( or will in a while ).


              Comparison with the competing mills on the internet:

              Our bot is still brilliantly designed! The alternatives in the same price region are simply
              not good enough. Especially the "3020" type China produced mills and alikes found on Ebay.


              The good stuff:

              PCB milling with the micRO is stunningly good. By far better than many of the competing solutions below 5,000$

              The design is fairly "open" and allows for user added improvements.


              The open design of the micRO is amongst the best out thwere, we just need to make it ready built...

              The bot is a good asset with a lot of potential.

              To bad LL bungled the good work!

              //danand


              On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:27:12 +0100
              Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:

              >
              > I found plastic shim. It's easier to cut than steel shim.
              >
              > http://www.stephensgaskets.co.uk/AssortedShimPacks.html
              >
              > Not to expensive either.
              >
              > You can find this kind of stuff in the US and elsewhere to of course.
              >
              > I like the shim solution as no modifications is required on the bot!
              >
              > //Danand
              >
              > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:18:30 +0100
              > Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > ? That was easy?!
              > >
              > > It's possible to adjust the Y axis runout ( the gantry ) as well as the X axis by adding shims. I happened to have car top valve adjustment shims for an old sportscar in my metric car junk box.
              > >
              > > Just release the two top screws on the motor mount. By placing shims between the mount left or right side, Y runout adjustment can be done. By adding shims between the Z block upper part and the tool mount, a good adjustment of the X runout can be done.
              > >
              > > You can easily get rid on a huge amount of runout this way.
              > >
              > > I'm going to order a new box of shim just to have on the shelf.
              > >
              > > It should be easy to add some kind of grub screw solution here but...
              > >
              > > The grub scre adjustment on the Z block is for fine adjustment.
              > >
              > > I'm looking into building/setting up a measure fixture with Johansson Pass bits to enable max accuracy of the adjustment process. These are also called "Slip Gauges" and comes in both metric and imperial sizes.
              > >
              > > We Swedes call the Johansson Pass Bits because he invented them!
              > >
              > > The surfaces are so exact that by "slipping" two pieces together, they stick together by the force of air pressure. If you have a 1mm and a 0.5mm gauge put together, they are so tight that you don't loose accuracy because of the joint.
              > >
              > > ////
              > >
              > > I'll try to take some snaps when I get the new shim.
              > >
              > > //Danand
              > >
              > > On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 15:51:37 -0000
              > > "Dan" <DanDurachko@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I'm planning to take some snapshots during the process if anyone else is bothered to see how it can be done.
              > > > >
              > > > Yes please. Would be much appreciated. If I understand your directions pretty much anyone else should be able to! :^)
              > > >
            • Gerrit Visser
              Check out granite countertop manufacturers for off cuts or sink cut outs. Good source of granite surface plates. From: micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 5, 2012

                Check out granite countertop  manufacturers for off cuts or sink cut outs. Good source of granite surface plates.

                 

                From: micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Andersson
                Sent: April-05-12 5:39 PM
                To: micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [micRo-cnc] Re: Ouch! And more Runout adjustments

                 

                 


                [snipped]

                Questions arized:

                Do I adjust for max accuracy only at a smaller area of the bot?
                What is the min/max values for the effect of the Z block grubs?
                How much is the dynamic base flex when milling?

                Todo:

                A full base logged surface plot. i need to write up a python program for this, should n't be that difficult.

                Prioritize the work on getting a new ER11 spindle without a flex shaft drive. ER16 is to large but maybe... I'd prefer top keep the sindle OD on 1". Watercooling? Maybe buit I need to add cooling of the tool.

                Get a price for a 26" by 26" and 1" alu "flat" sheet to act as a rigid base for the base...
                Or possibly a granite slab.

                Ideally, a full base replacement with a T-slotted stiffer base. The holes we use now is embarrassingly bad.

                I need to buy a full set of 1/4" and 6mm tools to replace the rather worn bits I have.
                And I'm not even contemplating buying any cheaply made bits this time. There are reasons good
                bits costs!

                Luckily, the bot will pay some it's dues and generete some stuff I can invoice. That will pay
                for a batch of new and sharp tools.

                I'm contemplating building a 100% enclosure with cooling and vacuum in/outlets. I'll look into
                the cost when the bot generated invoices are being paid.

                I have to admit the bot has been generating some 5 grand worth of invoices so the darn thing have at least paid the hardware bill now ( or will in a while ).

                Comparison with the competing mills on the internet:

                Our bot is still brilliantly designed! The alternatives in the same price region are simply
                not good enough. Especially the "3020" type China produced mills and alikes found on Ebay.

                The good stuff:

                PCB milling with the micRO is stunningly good. By far better than many of the competing solutions below 5,000$

                The design is fairly "open" and allows for user added improvements.

                The open design of the micRO is amongst the best out thwere, we just need to make it ready built...

                The bot is a good asset with a lot of potential.

                To bad LL bungled the good work!

                //danand

                On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:27:12 +0100
                Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:

                >
                > I found plastic shim. It's easier to cut than steel shim.
                >
                > http://www.stephensgaskets.co.uk/AssortedShimPacks.html
                >
                > Not to expensive either.
                >
                > You can find this kind of stuff in the US and elsewhere to of course.
                >
                > I like the shim solution as no modifications is required on the bot!
                >
                > //Danand
                >
                > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:18:30 +0100
                > Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > ? That was easy?!
                > >
                > > It's possible to adjust the Y axis runout ( the gantry ) as well as the X axis by adding shims. I happened to have car top valve adjustment shims for an old sportscar in my metric car junk box.
                > >
                > > Just release the two top screws on the motor mount. By placing shims between the mount left or right side, Y runout adjustment can be done. By adding shims between the Z block upper part and the tool mount, a good adjustment of the X runout can be done.
                > >
                > > You can easily get rid on a huge amount of runout this way.
                > >
                > > I'm going to order a new box of shim just to have on the shelf.
                > >
                > > It should be easy to add some kind of grub screw solution here but...
                > >
                > > The grub scre adjustment on the Z block is for fine adjustment.
                > >
                > > I'm looking into building/setting up a measure fixture with Johansson Pass bits to enable max accuracy of the adjustment process. These are also called "Slip Gauges" and comes in both metric and imperial sizes.
                > >
                > > We Swedes call the Johansson Pass Bits because he invented them!
                > >
                > > The surfaces are so exact that by "slipping" two pieces together, they stick together by the force of air pressure. If you have a 1mm and a 0.5mm gauge put together, they are so tight that you don't loose accuracy because of the joint.
                > >
                > > ////
                > >
                > > I'll try to take some snaps when I get the new shim.
                > >
                > > //Danand
                > >
                > > On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 15:51:37 -0000
                > > "Dan" <DanDurachko@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I'm planning to take some snapshots during the process if anyone else is bothered to see how it can be done.
                > > > >
                > > > Yes please. Would be much appreciated. If I understand your directions pretty much anyone else should be able to! :^)
                > > >

              • Dan Andersson
                On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 22:38:59 +0100 ... I ment a cube instead of a square. The tramming only take into account the 2D aspects, not the full 3D aspect. After
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 5, 2012
                  On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 22:38:59 +0100
                  Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:

                  > Tramming the bot is not enough. I need to introduce a "squaring" procedure instead. Tramming is good enough for shallow works like milling PCB's and shallow 3D profiles..

                  I ment a "cube" instead of a square.

                  The tramming only take into account the 2D aspects, not the full 3D aspect. After all,
                  it's a 3D milling machine and not a flatlander...

                  //danand
                • Dan Andersson
                  I thoight of that but almost all industrial production in the UK is either closed down ( sold to India or China ) or if still here, centralized. Where I live,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 5, 2012
                    I thoight of that but almost all industrial production in the UK is either closed down ( sold to India or China ) or if still here, centralized.

                    Where I live, the City of Hull at the very North East of England, it's the end the world.
                    Most production are based in the Midlands, a couple of hours away from here.

                    I have Britains largest Aluminium supplier downtown so that is the immediate choice.

                    I'll check what a custom slab will cost me.

                    //Danand

                    On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 20:06:59 -0400
                    "Gerrit Visser" <gerrit@...> wrote:

                    > Check out granite countertop manufacturers for off cuts or sink cut outs.
                    > Good source of granite surface plates.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    > Of Dan Andersson
                    > Sent: April-05-12 5:39 PM
                    > To: micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [micRo-cnc] Re: Ouch! And more Runout adjustments
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [snipped]
                    >
                    > Questions arized:
                    >
                    > Do I adjust for max accuracy only at a smaller area of the bot?
                    > What is the min/max values for the effect of the Z block grubs?
                    > How much is the dynamic base flex when milling?
                    >
                    > Todo:
                    >
                    > A full base logged surface plot. i need to write up a python program for
                    > this, should n't be that difficult.
                    >
                    > Prioritize the work on getting a new ER11 spindle without a flex shaft
                    > drive. ER16 is to large but maybe... I'd prefer top keep the sindle OD on
                    > 1". Watercooling? Maybe buit I need to add cooling of the tool.
                    >
                    > Get a price for a 26" by 26" and 1" alu "flat" sheet to act as a rigid base
                    > for the base...
                    > Or possibly a granite slab.
                    >
                    > Ideally, a full base replacement with a T-slotted stiffer base. The holes we
                    > use now is embarrassingly bad.
                    >
                    > I need to buy a full set of 1/4" and 6mm tools to replace the rather worn
                    > bits I have.
                    > And I'm not even contemplating buying any cheaply made bits this time. There
                    > are reasons good
                    > bits costs!
                    >
                    > Luckily, the bot will pay some it's dues and generete some stuff I can
                    > invoice. That will pay
                    > for a batch of new and sharp tools.
                    >
                    > I'm contemplating building a 100% enclosure with cooling and vacuum
                    > in/outlets. I'll look into
                    > the cost when the bot generated invoices are being paid.
                    >
                    > I have to admit the bot has been generating some 5 grand worth of invoices
                    > so the darn thing have at least paid the hardware bill now ( or will in a
                    > while ).
                    >
                    > Comparison with the competing mills on the internet:
                    >
                    > Our bot is still brilliantly designed! The alternatives in the same price
                    > region are simply
                    > not good enough. Especially the "3020" type China produced mills and alikes
                    > found on Ebay.
                    >
                    > The good stuff:
                    >
                    > PCB milling with the micRO is stunningly good. By far better than many of
                    > the competing solutions below 5,000$
                    >
                    > The design is fairly "open" and allows for user added improvements.
                    >
                    > The open design of the micRO is amongst the best out thwere, we just need to
                    > make it ready built...
                    >
                    > The bot is a good asset with a lot of potential.
                    >
                    > To bad LL bungled the good work!
                    >
                    > //danand
                    >
                    > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:27:12 +0100
                    > Dan Andersson <dan@... <mailto:dan%40andersson.co.uk> > wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > I found plastic shim. It's easier to cut than steel shim.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.stephensgaskets.co.uk/AssortedShimPacks.html
                    > >
                    > > Not to expensive either.
                    > >
                    > > You can find this kind of stuff in the US and elsewhere to of course.
                    > >
                    > > I like the shim solution as no modifications is required on the bot!
                    > >
                    > > //Danand
                    > >
                    > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:18:30 +0100
                    > > Dan Andersson <dan@... <mailto:dan%40andersson.co.uk> > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ? That was easy?!
                    > > >
                    > > > It's possible to adjust the Y axis runout ( the gantry ) as well as the
                    > X axis by adding shims. I happened to have car top valve adjustment shims
                    > for an old sportscar in my metric car junk box.
                    > > >
                    > > > Just release the two top screws on the motor mount. By placing shims
                    > between the mount left or right side, Y runout adjustment can be done. By
                    > adding shims between the Z block upper part and the tool mount, a good
                    > adjustment of the X runout can be done.
                    > > >
                    > > > You can easily get rid on a huge amount of runout this way.
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm going to order a new box of shim just to have on the shelf.
                    > > >
                    > > > It should be easy to add some kind of grub screw solution here but...
                    > > >
                    > > > The grub scre adjustment on the Z block is for fine adjustment.
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm looking into building/setting up a measure fixture with Johansson
                    > Pass bits to enable max accuracy of the adjustment process. These are also
                    > called "Slip Gauges" and comes in both metric and imperial sizes.
                    > > >
                    > > > We Swedes call the Johansson Pass Bits because he invented them!
                    > > >
                    > > > The surfaces are so exact that by "slipping" two pieces together, they
                    > stick together by the force of air pressure. If you have a 1mm and a 0.5mm
                    > gauge put together, they are so tight that you don't loose accuracy because
                    > of the joint.
                    > > >
                    > > > ////
                    > > >
                    > > > I'll try to take some snaps when I get the new shim.
                    > > >
                    > > > //Danand
                    > > >
                    > > > On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 15:51:37 -0000
                    > > > "Dan" <DanDurachko@... <mailto:DanDurachko%40psu.edu> > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:micRo-cnc%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > , Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I'm planning to take some snapshots during the process if anyone
                    > else is bothered to see how it can be done.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > Yes please. Would be much appreciated. If I understand your directions
                    > pretty much anyone else should be able to! :^)
                    > > > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Dan
                    FWIW I just bought two pieces of something from a local supplier here for our lab. They are roughly 9 inches by 16 inches by 5/4 inches. Ran us around
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 6, 2012
                      FWIW I just bought two pieces of "something" from a local supplier here for our lab. They are roughly 9 inches by 16 inches by 5/4 inches. Ran us around $100.00 USD. This place sells "scrap" on a per square foot flat rate with no cut charges. I could buy a micRo sized piece no problem as some of the "scraps" were quite large.

                      --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I thoight of that but almost all industrial production in the UK is either closed down ( sold to India or China ) or if still here, centralized.
                      >
                      > Where I live, the City of Hull at the very North East of England, it's the end the world.
                      > Most production are based in the Midlands, a couple of hours away from here.
                      >
                      > I have Britains largest Aluminium supplier downtown so that is the immediate choice.
                      >
                      > I'll check what a custom slab will cost me.
                      >
                      > //Danand
                      >
                      > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 20:06:59 -0400
                      > "Gerrit Visser" <gerrit@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Check out granite countertop manufacturers for off cuts or sink cut outs.
                      > > Good source of granite surface plates.
                    • Dan
                      Yes, this is the problem I m having. For general stuff like carving a wooden sign imperfect full orthogonality is totally acceptable. I recently made a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 6, 2012
                        Yes, this is the problem I'm having. For general stuff like carving a wooden sign imperfect full orthogonality is totally acceptable. I recently made a linear translation stage from acrylic and teeny linear bearings with 3 millimeter diameter ways which included a 50 gram full scale force transducer and a cool little displacement transducer with sub-micron resolution and the lack of "squareness" of the Z caused me some grief. I was able to work around it but I'd like to be able to mill a cube with all sides square with respect to one another within a reasonable amount of error. In truth, I was rather shocked the squareness is as bad as it "appears" to be on my micRo. I need to do more work quantifying this lack of orthogonality but am too busy typing lengthy, rambling replies on Yahoo. LOL! It's nice to still have a place to vent now that Lumenlab has maybe taken the final plunge into oblivion. Thanks danand.

                        --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 22:38:59 +0100
                        > Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Tramming the bot is not enough. I need to introduce a "squaring" procedure instead. Tramming is good enough for shallow works like milling PCB's and shallow 3D profiles..
                        >
                        > I ment a "cube" instead of a square.
                        >
                        > The tramming only take into account the 2D aspects, not the full 3D aspect. After all,
                        > it's a 3D milling machine and not a flatlander...
                        >
                        > //danand
                        >
                      • micRo-cnc-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        ... Cheaper than hiring a shrink to listen to you rant, too. Rick
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 6, 2012
                          --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@> wrote:
                          >
                          > ... I need to do more work quantifying this lack of orthogonality but am too busy typing lengthy, rambling replies on Yahoo. LOL! It's nice to still have a place to vent now that Lumenlab has maybe taken the final plunge into oblivion. Thanks danand.
                          >

                          Cheaper than hiring a shrink to listen to you rant, too.

                          Rick
                        • Dan Andersson
                          On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 14:42:50 -0000 ... I didn t setup the group, I merely brought the idea up and someone ( please remind us ) set it up. //danand
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 6, 2012
                            On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 14:42:50 -0000
                            "Dan" <DanDurachko@...> wrote:

                            > Thanks danand

                            I didn't setup the group, I merely brought the idea up and someone ( please remind us ) set it up.


                            //danand
                          • Dan Andersson
                            I noticed that when tightening the screws to prevent backlash, the base buckles! It creates a bulb at the centre of the base. Alu extrusions with T-slots
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 6, 2012
                              I noticed that when tightening the screws to prevent backlash, the base buckles!
                              It creates a "bulb" at the centre of the base.

                              Alu extrusions with T-slots doesn't solve this problem.

                              To be able to "cube up" the micRO, we need once and for all to find a good base first. With none or little flex.

                              //danand


                              On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 14:42:50 -0000
                              "Dan" <DanDurachko@...> wrote:

                              > Yes, this is the problem I'm having. For general stuff like carving a wooden sign imperfect full orthogonality is totally acceptable. I recently made a linear translation stage from acrylic and teeny linear bearings with 3 millimeter diameter ways which included a 50 gram full scale force transducer and a cool little displacement transducer with sub-micron resolution and the lack of "squareness" of the Z caused me some grief. I was able to work around it but I'd like to be able to mill a cube with all sides square with respect to one another within a reasonable amount of error. In truth, I was rather shocked the squareness is as bad as it "appears" to be on my micRo. I need to do more work quantifying this lack of orthogonality but am too busy typing lengthy, rambling replies on Yahoo. LOL! It's nice to still have a place to vent now that Lumenlab has maybe taken the final plunge into oblivion. Thanks danand.
                              >
                              > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 22:38:59 +0100
                              > > Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Tramming the bot is not enough. I need to introduce a "squaring" procedure instead. Tramming is good enough for shallow works like milling PCB's and shallow 3D profiles..
                              > >
                              > > I ment a "cube" instead of a square.
                              > >
                              > > The tramming only take into account the 2D aspects, not the full 3D aspect. After all,
                              > > it's a 3D milling machine and not a flatlander...
                              > >
                              > > //danand
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                            • Dan
                              The bulbing does make perfect sense now that you mention it. I don t mind the holes for holding stuff but slots WOULD be nicer. I wonder . . . could one
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 6, 2012
                                The "bulbing" does make perfect sense now that you mention it. I don't mind the holes for holding stuff but slots WOULD be nicer. I wonder . . . could one make a grid of blind holes (or through holes for that matter) in the base bottom and just cast the damn Al plate in concrete? How bad might that be? What disadvantages? Could then face a few thou (or whatever it takes!) off the base and kind of be done with it. I almost always use some kind of sacrifice anyway so might not even consider milling the actual Al base. Once it's SOLID that's a big part of the battle. Casting in concrete kinda makes it a bit less portable though! LOL!

                                --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > I noticed that when tightening the screws to prevent backlash, the base buckles!
                                > It creates a "bulb" at the centre of the base.
                                >
                                > Alu extrusions with T-slots doesn't solve this problem.
                                >
                                > To be able to "cube up" the micRO, we need once and for all to find a good base first. With none or little flex.
                                >
                                > //danand
                              • Dan
                                I neglected to mention the - maybe - obvious. Screw anchors into the base bottom so the concrete would have something to grab!!!
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 6, 2012
                                  I neglected to mention the - maybe - obvious. Screw anchors into the base bottom so the concrete would have something to grab!!!

                                  --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, "Dan" <DanDurachko@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The "bulbing" does make perfect sense now that you mention it. I don't mind the holes for holding stuff but slots WOULD be nicer. I wonder . . . could one make a grid of blind holes (or through holes for that matter) in the base bottom and just cast the damn Al plate in concrete? How bad might that be? What disadvantages? Could then face a few thou (or whatever it takes!) off the base and kind of be done with it. I almost always use some kind of sacrifice anyway so might not even consider milling the actual Al base. Once it's SOLID that's a big part of the battle. Casting in concrete kinda makes it a bit less portable though! LOL!
                                  >
                                  > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I noticed that when tightening the screws to prevent backlash, the base buckles!
                                  > > It creates a "bulb" at the centre of the base.
                                  > >
                                  > > Alu extrusions with T-slots doesn't solve this problem.
                                  > >
                                  > > To be able to "cube up" the micRO, we need once and for all to find a good base first. With none or little flex.
                                  > >
                                  > > //danand
                                  >
                                • Dan Andersson
                                  There are a couple of catches... The bulbing is not static. If you mill with high feed rate and 1/4 in hard materials, the bulbing changes with the load on
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 6, 2012
                                    There are a couple of catches...

                                    The bulbing is not static. If you mill with high feed rate and 1/4" in hard materials, the bulbing
                                    changes with the load on the spindle.

                                    I tried to mill down my base as you might remember from my early LL forum posts. But everytime I changed something, the base was off again. I solved this by introducing the probing and the problem caused by a bulbing base was gone for 2D operations. Every time I tighten up the backlash tension, I get changes.

                                    So the way forward would be to clamp down the base in something more rigid and countersing the screws and then face off the full base surface once and for all.

                                    I tried a concrete base but never succeeded to get a good concree mix. I need some modern hitek solution that doesn't create dust. Even looking at the darned concrete base created dust...

                                    I'm going to test a 1" marine plywood base under the alu base. That should make it all less flexible BUT! The forces are rather substantial when the spindle is moving. Probably in the reqion of 150 - 200 pound drag or push. No wonder the base flexes.

                                    I'm moving towards a granite slab. Either natural or engineered ( powder granite ).

                                    //danand


                                    On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 18:53:30 -0000
                                    "Dan" <DanDurachko@...> wrote:

                                    > I neglected to mention the - maybe - obvious. Screw anchors into the base bottom so the concrete would have something to grab!!!
                                    >
                                    > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, "Dan" <DanDurachko@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > The "bulbing" does make perfect sense now that you mention it. I don't mind the holes for holding stuff but slots WOULD be nicer. I wonder . . . could one make a grid of blind holes (or through holes for that matter) in the base bottom and just cast the damn Al plate in concrete? How bad might that be? What disadvantages? Could then face a few thou (or whatever it takes!) off the base and kind of be done with it. I almost always use some kind of sacrifice anyway so might not even consider milling the actual Al base. Once it's SOLID that's a big part of the battle. Casting in concrete kinda makes it a bit less portable though! LOL!
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I noticed that when tightening the screws to prevent backlash, the base buckles!
                                    > > > It creates a "bulb" at the centre of the base.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Alu extrusions with T-slots doesn't solve this problem.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To be able to "cube up" the micRO, we need once and for all to find a good base first. With none or little flex.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > //danand
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • mkrzenski@ymail.com
                                    Hey Denand was curious if you ever implemented the granite slab? I ve been considering something like this for my M3 as well. Thanks
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jul 6, 2012
                                      Hey Denand was curious if you ever implemented the granite slab? I've been considering something like this for my M3 as well.

                                      Thanks



                                      --- In micRo-cnc@yahoogroups.com, Dan Andersson <dan@...> wrote:

                                      > I'm going to test a 1" marine plywood base under the alu base. That should make it all less flexible BUT! The forces are rather substantial when the spindle is moving. Probably in the reqion of 150 - 200 pound drag or push. No wonder the base flexes.
                                      >
                                      > I'm moving towards a granite slab. Either natural or engineered ( powder granite ).
                                      >
                                      > //danand
                                      >
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