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Re: [Methane Hydrate Club] Re: comments on SE

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  • foryeshua1@juno.com
    Mike, Those currents moving slowly deep within the earth. . . Perhaps this story is about movements closer to the surface, but when they measured how fast the
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 17, 2002
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      Mike, Those currents moving slowly deep within the earth. . . Perhaps
      this story is about movements closer to the surface, but when they
      measured how fast the charge was being replaced so that a new strike
      could occur at the Empire State Bld, it was a matter of seconds. The
      reason there wasn't another immediate lightening bolt was that the path
      of conductance to discharge was not in place because it had been burned.
      Currents moving deeper in the earth? Well maybe between the surface and
      the area of molten magma, for there I would assume that electricity moves
      fast. Evidenced by the lightening that comes from Volcanoes. Walter

      On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:17:56 -0000 fredwx <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      writes:
      Mike, you said
      "Okay? Now, I am NOT talking about moving currents in the air up and
      down but moving currents either in the ionosphere that would impact
      the cirrus by a capacitive balancing below them, or specifically, I
      am talking about a slower movement of charges in general deep
      underneath the earth."...

      The ionosphere is typically very high up (70km or more) while cirrus
      cloues exists at about 6-10Km. My understanding of electricty is
      somewhat limited so how does the ionosphere at 70Km or higher
      interact with the cirrus clouds some 60 or more km below?

      Fred

      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
      > Dr. Walt wrote:
      >
      > > It is my understanding that lightening strikes in the
      > Northern
      > > Hemisphere start out with a few weak connection making discharges
      > > down from the cloud and when there are enough of these in place
      to
      > > form conductance paths, a huge jolt of lightening comes from the
      > > earth up into the cloud and probably the conductance paths above
      it.
      >
      > I would agree and that is my understanding as well.
      >
      >
      > > This would leave a discharged condition as far as charge is
      > concerned
      > > on the site of discharge on the ground. Electrical charges would
      > > flow toward this site, not away from it.
      >
      > I think you are not following what I am talking about. The
      > electrical currents in the ionosphere flow fairly well as the air
      is
      > thin enough to move a current. The name ionosphere itself denotes
      > that.
      >
      > But currents don't move well at all in the troposphere due to the
      > insulating properties of air. OTOH, when there is a storm, as you
      > describe, current can move from the lower ionosphere, which is
      > positively charged BUT maintained that way by strikes, to the
      > terresphere, which in general carries a "positive" charge, or is
      > "acidic", meaning more H+ ions then OH- ions in the waters.
      >
      > Okay? Now, I am NOT talking about moving currents in the air up
      and
      > down but moving currents either in the ionosphere that would impact
      > the cirrus by a capacitive balancing below them, or specifically, I
      > am talking about a slower movement of charges in general deep
      > underneath the earth.
      >
      > >
      > > If you can take time to define these terms, Thanks If not I'll
      > keep
      > > trying to learn from context. BTW, Thanks for the definitions
      you
      > > have just sent. I"m beginning to see.
      > > Gyre
      > >
      > > SST
      > >
      > > GOM
      > >
      > > CAP
      > >
      > > OZ
      > >
      > > NOAA Link
      > >
      > > GHG
      > >
      > > Another comment. In one place I found you defining a warmer
      > > West Pacific current, which you defined as being able to conduct
      > more
      > > electricity. I would agree, but isn't it also possible that its
      > > warmer condition in the first place is caused by a General
      Northern
      > > flow of Solar Electrojet Current, which would also account for
      the
      > > other atmospheric phenomena accompanying the current North? The
      way
      > I
      > > reason the current turns around and goes South by Japan is that
      it
      > > discharges its SE current along its Northern loop and then the
      > > relatively discharged water is drawn back around by its eddy flow.
      >
      > No. It is not that I haven't considered this and I realize you are
      > trying as more of an expert to re-invent a wheel that I have been
      > been working on in context for years. The problem is that the
      cirrus
      > are impacted over a large area of charge in the ionosphere or the
      > oceans but the air insulates any current movement between, except
      for
      > convective lightning discharges or tropical storms and their
      centers
      > and a process called capacitive inductance. In any event, it is
      just
      > related to the current movements, or the temperature of currents
      > where those movements occur and the relative inductance that occurs.
      >
      > Flaring is another matter, but is more of a general feature rather
      > than a localized one.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > Wow, we have exchanged a lot of info recently. No one else
      > has
      > > asked any questions. Is Sunday and Saturday slow?
      >
      > There are many lurkers to this site but few posters--mostly Fred
      and
      > B-1. B-1 posts late at night and Fred posts whenever I write
      > anything outragious ;)
      >
      > On other nets I
      > > have found it to be so. Well thanks for your time in answering
      so
      > > generously my beginners questions. Thanks Walter


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    • pawnfart
      http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/national/16ALAS.html In Alaska, rising temperatures, whether caused by greenhouse gas emissions or nature in a prolonged mood
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 17, 2002
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        http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/national/16ALAS.html


        In Alaska, rising temperatures, whether caused by greenhouse gas
        emissions or nature in a prolonged mood swing, are not a topic of
        debate or an abstraction. Mean temperatures have risen by 5 degrees
        in summer and 10 degrees in winter since the 1970's, federal
        officials say.
        I have a number of Gaia comments.

        First, the difference between winter and summer averages is due to
        dams in Asia and around the Pacific, more likely than not. That is
        because the dams delay WHEN the electrical insulation from hydrates
        flows into the Pacific and when cirrus feedbacks occur.

        Second, there is a confusion occurring in the climate debate about
        places near the poles which appear to be exeriancing dramatic
        warming, like the 5 degrees Celcius where in Antarctica where B-21,
        and 22 broke off near the tip of South America in the Southern Oceans
        and yet there are cold anomalies to the interior and cold anomaly
        SSTs in most of the Southern Ocean itself, excepting that area. This
        Alaska story is no different. What both places are REALLY about is
        how a WARMER OCEAN is an ocean which conducts electrical currents
        better. I realize I keep repeating this but it is so critical a
        thought that it must be until those who need to know, understand the
        significance of this comment. Near Alaska in particular, there are
        two smaller gyres called the Berring, and the especially important,
        the Alaskan. These currents/gyres have east to west aspects, just
        like there is an eddy near where B-21 and 22 broke off. OTOH, the
        Southern Ocean itself is mostly a west to east current, that per
        Fleming's right hand rule is going to put electrons into the ocean
        and not enhance cirrus cloud activity. Hence, a warmer ocean means
        that this dynamic is even more efficient, and the cirrus clouds even
        more absent. Likewise, as the oceans have warmed, the west to east
        moving portions of the N. Pacific gyre reduces cirrus even more--with
        the warmer, more conductive waters. That means that the continental
        U.S. may see even cooler summers, like we are now-because most of the
        US is at that latitude of where the gyres move against cirrus, and/or
        down wind of it!

        Last year when an Arctic thunderstorm made national news, the John
        Daly's of the debate ridiculed the report. But as Alaska melts, one
        of the more interesting aspects will be how Gaia reacts electrically
        to where places on the tundra which are no longer protected by the
        electrical insulation of the perma-frost.

        Because of the electrical nature of these cloud feedback, there is
        great danger for non-linear change. It is well known that neo-
        glacials are proceeded by warming and that the place of the neo-
        glacial where ice sheets are first laid is called the Cordilleran Ice
        Sheet, after the mountains ranging north and south along the Canadian
        Pacific coast. This ice sheet extended all the way to the Allutian
        Islands but did not cover much of Alaska itself . . .
        portions of this message have been removed]
      • b1blancer_29501
        ... moves ... Absolutely there are electric currents moving deep within the Earth. That s what generates Earth s magnetic field. The generation of a planetary
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 17, 2002
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          > Currents moving deeper in the earth? Well maybe between the surface and
          > the area of molten magma, for there I would assume that electricity
          moves
          > fast. Evidenced by the lightening that comes from Volcanoes. Walter
          >

          Absolutely there are electric currents moving deep within the Earth.
          That's what generates Earth's magnetic field. The generation of a
          planetary magnetic field requires a molten iron core, or at least a
          molten outer core, as Earth has. The liquid iron has to be moving to
          generate the current. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism of how it
          works. Maybe somebody could enlighten me??
        • foryeshua1@juno.com
          On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 03:53:36 -0000 b1blancer_29501 ... and ... moves ... Absolutely there are electric currents moving deep within the Earth. That s what
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 18, 2002
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            On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 03:53:36 -0000 "b1blancer_29501"
            <b1blancer1@...> writes:

            > Currents moving deeper in the earth? Well maybe between the surface
            and
            > the area of molten magma, for there I would assume that electricity
            moves
            > fast. Evidenced by the lightening that comes from Volcanoes. Walter
            >

            Absolutely there are electric currents moving deep within the Earth.
            That's what generates Earth's magnetic field. The generation of a
            planetary magnetic field requires a molten iron core, or at least a
            molten outer core, as Earth has. The liquid iron has to be moving to
            generate the current. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism of how it
            works. Maybe somebody could enlighten me??

            It seems to me that the idea of earth generating its own field with its
            own movement is illogical. I believe the SE which I really don't believe
            most have even thought of the possibility of it, is really the cause of
            the real power, that shifts pole positions, causes lightening, spins the
            earth on its axis, etc. Walter
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