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Re: [Methane Hydrate Club] Re: comments on SE

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  • foryeshua1@juno.com
    B1, excellent. This is the description I was trying to describe from memory a long time ago. I did not include that the potential for another lightening
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 17, 2002
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      B1, excellent. This is the description I was trying to describe from
      memory a long time ago. I did not include that the potential for another
      lightening strike rebuilds in short time. Seconds as I remember it. It
      was a story about strikes measured from the Waldorf Astoria bld. Thanks,
      Walter

      On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 06:24:10 -0000 "b1blancer_29501"
      <b1blancer1@...> writes:
      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "solarelectrojet" <foryeshua1@j...>
      wrote:
      > Mike,
      > It is my understanding that lightening strikes in the Northern
      > Hemisphere start out with a few weak connection making discharges
      > down from the cloud and when there are enough of these in place to
      > form conductance paths, a huge jolt of lightening comes from the
      > earth up into the cloud and probably the conductance paths above it.
      > This would leave a discharged condition as far as charge is concerned
      > on the site of discharge on the ground. Electrical charges would
      > flow toward this site, not away from it.
      >

      Lightning is lightning, no matter if its in the Northern or Southern
      hemisphere. It all acts the same way. A lightning bolt starts out
      with what's called a stepped leader. That relatively weak electrical
      discharge starts down from the cloud, goes a few hundred feet, and
      stops for a fraction of a second. It then starts again, maybe in a
      completely different direction. It keeps repeating the process as it
      proceeds closer to the ground. When it gets within a few hundred feet
      of the ground, the earth begins to "feel" it coming. Objects on the
      ground send up positive leaders. Positive leaders can come from just
      about anything...a tree, a pole, a blade of grass, a house, your head....

      The incoming downstroke will then connect with one of the outgoing
      positive leaders. When that happens, its like closing a switch. The
      circuit is completed, and a catastrophic blast of millions of volts
      and hundreds of thousands of amps follows as the charge is drained.
      However, the drain is often not complete with the first hit.
      Subsequent strokes then follow, which gives lightning the flickering
      appearance. Those strokes will follow the same path as the first,
      since the first one created a corona path of ionized gas, which is a
      good conductor of electricity.

      Incidentally, the vast majority of lightning strikes are either
      cloud-to-cloud or within the same cloud.

      The Learning Channel has run a show called "Electric Skies" a few
      times. If they ever do it again, make it a point to watch it. It is
      quite fascinating.


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    • foryeshua1@juno.com
      Mike, Those currents moving slowly deep within the earth. . . Perhaps this story is about movements closer to the surface, but when they measured how fast the
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 17, 2002
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        Mike, Those currents moving slowly deep within the earth. . . Perhaps
        this story is about movements closer to the surface, but when they
        measured how fast the charge was being replaced so that a new strike
        could occur at the Empire State Bld, it was a matter of seconds. The
        reason there wasn't another immediate lightening bolt was that the path
        of conductance to discharge was not in place because it had been burned.
        Currents moving deeper in the earth? Well maybe between the surface and
        the area of molten magma, for there I would assume that electricity moves
        fast. Evidenced by the lightening that comes from Volcanoes. Walter

        On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:17:56 -0000 fredwx <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
        writes:
        Mike, you said
        "Okay? Now, I am NOT talking about moving currents in the air up and
        down but moving currents either in the ionosphere that would impact
        the cirrus by a capacitive balancing below them, or specifically, I
        am talking about a slower movement of charges in general deep
        underneath the earth."...

        The ionosphere is typically very high up (70km or more) while cirrus
        cloues exists at about 6-10Km. My understanding of electricty is
        somewhat limited so how does the ionosphere at 70Km or higher
        interact with the cirrus clouds some 60 or more km below?

        Fred

        --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
        > Dr. Walt wrote:
        >
        > > It is my understanding that lightening strikes in the
        > Northern
        > > Hemisphere start out with a few weak connection making discharges
        > > down from the cloud and when there are enough of these in place
        to
        > > form conductance paths, a huge jolt of lightening comes from the
        > > earth up into the cloud and probably the conductance paths above
        it.
        >
        > I would agree and that is my understanding as well.
        >
        >
        > > This would leave a discharged condition as far as charge is
        > concerned
        > > on the site of discharge on the ground. Electrical charges would
        > > flow toward this site, not away from it.
        >
        > I think you are not following what I am talking about. The
        > electrical currents in the ionosphere flow fairly well as the air
        is
        > thin enough to move a current. The name ionosphere itself denotes
        > that.
        >
        > But currents don't move well at all in the troposphere due to the
        > insulating properties of air. OTOH, when there is a storm, as you
        > describe, current can move from the lower ionosphere, which is
        > positively charged BUT maintained that way by strikes, to the
        > terresphere, which in general carries a "positive" charge, or is
        > "acidic", meaning more H+ ions then OH- ions in the waters.
        >
        > Okay? Now, I am NOT talking about moving currents in the air up
        and
        > down but moving currents either in the ionosphere that would impact
        > the cirrus by a capacitive balancing below them, or specifically, I
        > am talking about a slower movement of charges in general deep
        > underneath the earth.
        >
        > >
        > > If you can take time to define these terms, Thanks If not I'll
        > keep
        > > trying to learn from context. BTW, Thanks for the definitions
        you
        > > have just sent. I"m beginning to see.
        > > Gyre
        > >
        > > SST
        > >
        > > GOM
        > >
        > > CAP
        > >
        > > OZ
        > >
        > > NOAA Link
        > >
        > > GHG
        > >
        > > Another comment. In one place I found you defining a warmer
        > > West Pacific current, which you defined as being able to conduct
        > more
        > > electricity. I would agree, but isn't it also possible that its
        > > warmer condition in the first place is caused by a General
        Northern
        > > flow of Solar Electrojet Current, which would also account for
        the
        > > other atmospheric phenomena accompanying the current North? The
        way
        > I
        > > reason the current turns around and goes South by Japan is that
        it
        > > discharges its SE current along its Northern loop and then the
        > > relatively discharged water is drawn back around by its eddy flow.
        >
        > No. It is not that I haven't considered this and I realize you are
        > trying as more of an expert to re-invent a wheel that I have been
        > been working on in context for years. The problem is that the
        cirrus
        > are impacted over a large area of charge in the ionosphere or the
        > oceans but the air insulates any current movement between, except
        for
        > convective lightning discharges or tropical storms and their
        centers
        > and a process called capacitive inductance. In any event, it is
        just
        > related to the current movements, or the temperature of currents
        > where those movements occur and the relative inductance that occurs.
        >
        > Flaring is another matter, but is more of a general feature rather
        > than a localized one.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > Wow, we have exchanged a lot of info recently. No one else
        > has
        > > asked any questions. Is Sunday and Saturday slow?
        >
        > There are many lurkers to this site but few posters--mostly Fred
        and
        > B-1. B-1 posts late at night and Fred posts whenever I write
        > anything outragious ;)
        >
        > On other nets I
        > > have found it to be so. Well thanks for your time in answering
        so
        > > generously my beginners questions. Thanks Walter


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      • pawnfart
        http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/national/16ALAS.html In Alaska, rising temperatures, whether caused by greenhouse gas emissions or nature in a prolonged mood
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 17, 2002
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          http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/national/16ALAS.html


          In Alaska, rising temperatures, whether caused by greenhouse gas
          emissions or nature in a prolonged mood swing, are not a topic of
          debate or an abstraction. Mean temperatures have risen by 5 degrees
          in summer and 10 degrees in winter since the 1970's, federal
          officials say.
          I have a number of Gaia comments.

          First, the difference between winter and summer averages is due to
          dams in Asia and around the Pacific, more likely than not. That is
          because the dams delay WHEN the electrical insulation from hydrates
          flows into the Pacific and when cirrus feedbacks occur.

          Second, there is a confusion occurring in the climate debate about
          places near the poles which appear to be exeriancing dramatic
          warming, like the 5 degrees Celcius where in Antarctica where B-21,
          and 22 broke off near the tip of South America in the Southern Oceans
          and yet there are cold anomalies to the interior and cold anomaly
          SSTs in most of the Southern Ocean itself, excepting that area. This
          Alaska story is no different. What both places are REALLY about is
          how a WARMER OCEAN is an ocean which conducts electrical currents
          better. I realize I keep repeating this but it is so critical a
          thought that it must be until those who need to know, understand the
          significance of this comment. Near Alaska in particular, there are
          two smaller gyres called the Berring, and the especially important,
          the Alaskan. These currents/gyres have east to west aspects, just
          like there is an eddy near where B-21 and 22 broke off. OTOH, the
          Southern Ocean itself is mostly a west to east current, that per
          Fleming's right hand rule is going to put electrons into the ocean
          and not enhance cirrus cloud activity. Hence, a warmer ocean means
          that this dynamic is even more efficient, and the cirrus clouds even
          more absent. Likewise, as the oceans have warmed, the west to east
          moving portions of the N. Pacific gyre reduces cirrus even more--with
          the warmer, more conductive waters. That means that the continental
          U.S. may see even cooler summers, like we are now-because most of the
          US is at that latitude of where the gyres move against cirrus, and/or
          down wind of it!

          Last year when an Arctic thunderstorm made national news, the John
          Daly's of the debate ridiculed the report. But as Alaska melts, one
          of the more interesting aspects will be how Gaia reacts electrically
          to where places on the tundra which are no longer protected by the
          electrical insulation of the perma-frost.

          Because of the electrical nature of these cloud feedback, there is
          great danger for non-linear change. It is well known that neo-
          glacials are proceeded by warming and that the place of the neo-
          glacial where ice sheets are first laid is called the Cordilleran Ice
          Sheet, after the mountains ranging north and south along the Canadian
          Pacific coast. This ice sheet extended all the way to the Allutian
          Islands but did not cover much of Alaska itself . . .
          portions of this message have been removed]
        • b1blancer_29501
          ... moves ... Absolutely there are electric currents moving deep within the Earth. That s what generates Earth s magnetic field. The generation of a planetary
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 17, 2002
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            > Currents moving deeper in the earth? Well maybe between the surface and
            > the area of molten magma, for there I would assume that electricity
            moves
            > fast. Evidenced by the lightening that comes from Volcanoes. Walter
            >

            Absolutely there are electric currents moving deep within the Earth.
            That's what generates Earth's magnetic field. The generation of a
            planetary magnetic field requires a molten iron core, or at least a
            molten outer core, as Earth has. The liquid iron has to be moving to
            generate the current. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism of how it
            works. Maybe somebody could enlighten me??
          • foryeshua1@juno.com
            On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 03:53:36 -0000 b1blancer_29501 ... and ... moves ... Absolutely there are electric currents moving deep within the Earth. That s what
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 18, 2002
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              On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 03:53:36 -0000 "b1blancer_29501"
              <b1blancer1@...> writes:

              > Currents moving deeper in the earth? Well maybe between the surface
              and
              > the area of molten magma, for there I would assume that electricity
              moves
              > fast. Evidenced by the lightening that comes from Volcanoes. Walter
              >

              Absolutely there are electric currents moving deep within the Earth.
              That's what generates Earth's magnetic field. The generation of a
              planetary magnetic field requires a molten iron core, or at least a
              molten outer core, as Earth has. The liquid iron has to be moving to
              generate the current. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism of how it
              works. Maybe somebody could enlighten me??

              It seems to me that the idea of earth generating its own field with its
              own movement is illogical. I believe the SE which I really don't believe
              most have even thought of the possibility of it, is really the cause of
              the real power, that shifts pole positions, causes lightening, spins the
              earth on its axis, etc. Walter
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