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Re: It's all electrical baby

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  • fredwx
    You said Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically resulted in the past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts glaciers and produces cold
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 5, 2002
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      You said "Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically
      resulted in the past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts
      glaciers and produces cold SSTs from the cirrus behavior. And when
      these warmer oceans get to moving west to east, as in off the coast
      of California, they reduce cirrus strongly, cool SSTs, and dry things
      out. California has received record low rainfall, consistant with
      this notion."

      Could the warmer SST along the Antartic that are melting the ice
      cause in increase in freshwater overlying the saltwater and thus
      reducing the inflow of warmer surface currents from the north?


      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/SeasonalClimateOutlook/SouthernOscil
      > lationIndex/30DaySOIValues/
      >
      > http://psbsgi1.nesdis.noaa.gov:8080/PSB/EPS/SST/climo.html
      >
      > Interesting w/ the SOI readings from flaring recently have been
      neg,
      > and yet even as SSTs around equatorial currents in the east Pac are
      > warming anomaly, to the south and north of that anomaly they
      remains
      > cold.
      >
      > What I am about to write is why this is absolutely the hottest
      place
      > on climate, right here, even as political headlines today are not
      > nearly as meaningful. If you can track, track, if you can see it,
      see
      > it. If not, STFU and listen until you can write something
      meaningful.
      > And as far as models predicting anything, like ENSO, they are all
      > crap because they start with SSTs and don't see the biological or
      the
      > electrical, especially how the biology modulates and becomes even
      > more important than what the sun is doing!
      >
      > I am simply going to do an compare and contrast two graphics after
      > making some assumptions. These are pictures, built on the same
      > dataset for anamolies. The assumptions I will make are based on the
      > well founded observations and Fleming's right hand rule. I will
      > assume that Lindzen/Fu's La Nina "iris" are electrical to these
      rules
      > that when currents and winds are sustained they induct a field that
      > sustains cirrus, feedsback IR levels that in turn warm oceans and
      > increases precip.
      >
      > This requires, per Fleming's rule, that the currents and winds are
      in
      > the east to west direction for electrical enhancement, where a
      vector
      > of electrons rises upward out of the ocean. OTOH, if the movement
      of
      > ocean current and winds are east to west, the resulting induction
      > gives a field of electrons moving into the ocean, against cirrus
      > behavior being enhanced, resulting in colder SSTs, low cloud IR
      > characteristics and so forth.
      >
      > The warmer a conducter as in the oceans, the better it will induct.
      > Think of it this way. Imagine you had an electrical generater, and
      > instead of having copper wires used for the induction, you used
      > something less conductive. Result? Less power output.
      >
      > In early January 1997 assume two cooling factors on the oceans in
      > general. One, we were post flaring min. While the flaring cycle is
      > not significant from a radiation standpoint, less than 2% change
      from
      > what I have read, it is electrically interesting, and enhances
      > cirrus, causing as much as a 20% change in heat energy from min to
      > max. Whether you agree with this as an electrical feature of
      flaring
      > or not, it doesn't matter--observation of warming during the solar
      > max is without serious contention. Two, we were post Mt. Pinatubo.
      > SOx emissions from volcanoes drop the phase change temp of cirrus
      and
      > hence reduce Gaia warming impacts. Again, whether you agree this is
      > an electrical feature or not, cooling and SOx have been observed
      and
      > go without serious dispute.
      >
      > Now, switch to early January 2002 to date. This was during,
      following
      > a second peak of the flaring cycle. There has been a significant
      > lapse since a volcanic event, and SOx emissions in the air have
      been
      > low.
      >
      > Okay. In Jan 97 there was incredible rains to California:
      >
      > http://water.wr.usgs.gov/flood97/
      >
      > This was from what is called the Pine-apple express. Now, go back
      to
      > the SST page:
      >
      > http://psbsgi1.nesdis.noaa.gov:8080/PSB/EPS/SST/climo.html
      >
      > Go to January 7, 1997.
      >
      http://www.osdpd.noaa.gov/PSB/EPS/SST/climo_archive/data/anomnight.1.6
      > .1997.gif
      >
      > Note the La Nina conditions (low flaring, positive SOI) and the
      warm
      > SSTs running from the Hawaiian Islands to California. Also notice
      > that the Antarctica Southern Ocean's circumpolar contains warm
      > anomalies (which will figure in the El Nino that is to come). The
      > gyres in general at that time were colder. That means, per the
      rules
      > and assumptions I have given above, that the west to east
      > circumpolar, for instance, is going to have colder ocean
      temperatures
      > in general, and that causes LESS induction AGAINST cirrus, counter
      > intuitively WARMING SSTs. The west to east moving part of the
      gyres,
      > especially the N. Pacific, can also be seen to move AGAINST the
      > cirrus, electrically, LESS, producing the warm SSTs and then the
      > storms of the Pine apple.
      >
      > Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically resulted in
      the
      > past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts glaciers and
      > produces cold SSTs from the cirrus behavior. And when these warmer
      > oceans get to moving west to east, as in off the coast of
      California,
      > they reduce cirrus strongly, cool SSTs, and dry things out.
      > California has received record low rainfall, consistant with this
      > notion.
      >
      > It's all electrical, baby!
    • pawnfart
      You said Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically resulted in the past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts glaciers and produces cold
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 6, 2002
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        You said "Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically
        resulted in the past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts
        glaciers and produces cold SSTs from the cirrus behavior. And when
        these warmer oceans get to moving west to east, as in off the coast
        of California, they reduce cirrus strongly, cool SSTs, and dry things
        out. California has received record low rainfall, consistant with
        this notion."

        Could the warmer SST along the Antartic that are melting the ice
        cause in increase in freshwater overlying the saltwater and thus
        reducing the inflow of warmer surface currents from the north?

        +++

        There are two primary reasons why I doubt that the melting glaciers
        present a fresh water capping issue that "blocks" the Pacific gyre.
        This is consistant with the so-called conveyor belt theory
        popularized by Professor William Calvin of Washington University in
        Atlantic Monthly. The first reason is that the leading scholar
        pushing this theory, Dr. Warren B. White of Scripps in 1999 dropped
        his research following ENSO and all his papers were no longer
        online. Then he started to study cloud behavior in India, focusing
        on very complex cloud albedo models. In short, I think he too
        thought it was about clouds. The second reason is speed. The
        salinity wave moves very slowly if it moved just by diffusion and
        mixing. At the same time, he noted a coupling of pressures and
        salinity and temperatures, with interactions with the glacial ice,
        but like I said, he seemed unsatisfied with his own results in terms
        of explaining El Nino. The electrical explaination not only gives
        the speed required to match the SSTs, but also links temperture and
        salinity with pressures--namely because the more conductive the water
        by being warm the more cirrus are reduced down wind from there, so
        you will have these persistant alternating salty and warm and cold
        and diluted patches he describes--including the interactions with the
        ice sheets. IOW, electrical movements of cirrus explains his
        findings--poor man gave up on himself. I emailed him and urged him
        to join our yahoo group but he wasn't apparently interested or
        thought Gaia was valid.

        Another thing that has to be mentioned here. The Southern Ocean has
        some life from the "upwellings" but doesn't have river sources of
        biological materials. But if you think about, say, the N. Atlantic,
        it is the ocean with the most rivers--yet is warmer and more saline
        than the Pacific! Why? Gaia, of course. The rivers cause more
        water to be taken from the Atlantic--because of the biological
        material insulating the ocean bottoms.

        ==========

        You said "The west to east moving part of the gyres, especially the
        N. Pacific, can also be seen to move AGAINST the cirrus,
        electrically, LESS, producing the warm SSTs and then the storms of
        the Pine apple."..

        You lost me here since the currents flow from off the California
        coast towards Hawaii (from the East towards the West)??

        +++

        I would be lost too if not familiar w/ the gyres. Stommel is the big
        researcher here of import, but there is also Eichmann and others.
        One interesting scholar on this subject is none other than Ben
        Franklin, who discovered the Gulf Stream when investigating why
        English mails were coming late, and American fishermen explained it
        to him and he documented their comments. But later it was proved
        that the Gulf Steam was part of a 'gyre', meaning it had a circular
        path. That was done by Prince Ranier's grandfather, who put
        thousands of bottles out into the N. Atlantic in 10 languages with
        instructions to mail the letters inside the bottles! The bottles
        moved in a circle. Okay, here is the catch. While the gyre moves in
        a circle, it is more of a spiraling path. What we are really
        discussing is a bulge of about 4 feet mid ocean, off center west,
        with the current on the surface moving "downhill". Coriolis right
        turns this and you get a circular deal. BUT, essentially, half of
        the gyre is moving the downhill direction from the center. Hence,
        there is indeed a current moving generally SW, in reality we are
        talking about a quadrant of surface currents moving SE, with coriolis
        right turning that current. Get it? That is why the most cirrus
        reduction, in terms of current direction, is in the NW quadrant of
        the gyres, while the most enhancment is in the SE quadrant. That
        said, these respective quadrants are warmer to the NW and colder to
        the SE because of their paths from and to the equatorial waters . . .

        ===========

        You said "when currents and winds are sustained they induct a field
        that sustains cirrus, feedsback IR levels that in turn warm oceans
        and increases precip.

        This requires, per Fleming's rule, that the currents and winds are in
        the east to west direction for electrical enhancement, where a vector
        of electrons rises upward out of the ocean."...

        The normal (non El Nino)flow of currents and wind in the tropics for
        the most part is from East towards the West. Are you talking about
        the normal conditions here? or did you mean West towards the East?

        ++++

        This is more complex so that you have to break it down so you can see
        what we are talking about electrically. The gyres move currents per
        Coriolis in this right turning manner from the gyre's top center,
        which is off centered west. I suspect that this movement is
        conceptually from the fact that the tropics are warmest, and, hence,
        as the air expands it spreads from the tropics with a Coriolis
        twist. That gives you the gyres. But the equatorial is a
        countercurrent to the gyres tropical edges. Now, the coriolis
        movement also generally will move the warmest WATERS west. That is
        why the West Pacific is warmer than the East Pacific. BUT, the
        counter current moves still warmer WATERS . . . EAST.

        NOW, enter winds. The SOI. This is the kicker because it shows how
        it is electrical and not about SSTs and thermodynamics. If the winds
        are moving from west to east, or the SOI is positive, the counter
        current will be enhanced. That counter intuitively means SSTs in the
        EAST cool! Why? Because the counter current, with these warm,
        electrically conductive currents, with the winds moving west to east
        is going to be even stronger and this means induction AGAINST cirrus,
        and electrically, cirrus are reduced in there to the east. OTOH, if
        the SOI is negitive, or blowing east to west, the counter current is
        going to be reduced AND, please read carefully and slowly, the
        gyres, which are not just about the part that coriolis turned east to
        west along the North and South Equatorial, but about the movement SE
        from the North gyre and NE from South gyre, that coriolis turns.
        That means that an expanding pressure from the Eastern Pacific will
        blow AGAINST cirrus REDUCTION. It will heat up the El Nino waters--
        electrically, especially if sustained enough to alter the gyres
        surface movements.

        But what CAUSES the SOI? Enter the sun. Ion particles sorted by
        SSTs and winds derived therefrom--that move the IR balances and the
        balances of air pressures. That is why flaring patterns can be
        predictive of the SOI and hence ENSO itself.
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