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Re: It's all electrical baby

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  • fredwx
    You said The west to east moving part of the gyres, especially the N. Pacific, can also be seen to move AGAINST the cirrus, electrically, LESS, producing the
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 5, 2002
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      You said "The west to east moving part of the gyres,
      especially the N. Pacific, can also be seen to move AGAINST the
      cirrus, electrically, LESS, producing the warm SSTs and then the
      storms of the Pine apple."..

      You lost me here since the currents flow from off the California
      coast towards Hawaii (from the East towards the West)??


      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/SeasonalClimateOutlook/SouthernOscil
      > lationIndex/30DaySOIValues/
      >
      > http://psbsgi1.nesdis.noaa.gov:8080/PSB/EPS/SST/climo.html
      >
      > Interesting w/ the SOI readings from flaring recently have been
      neg,
      > and yet even as SSTs around equatorial currents in the east Pac are
      > warming anomaly, to the south and north of that anomaly they
      remains
      > cold.
      >
      > What I am about to write is why this is absolutely the hottest
      place
      > on climate, right here, even as political headlines today are not
      > nearly as meaningful. If you can track, track, if you can see it,
      see
      > it. If not, STFU and listen until you can write something
      meaningful.
      > And as far as models predicting anything, like ENSO, they are all
      > crap because they start with SSTs and don't see the biological or
      the
      > electrical, especially how the biology modulates and becomes even
      > more important than what the sun is doing!
      >
      > I am simply going to do an compare and contrast two graphics after
      > making some assumptions. These are pictures, built on the same
      > dataset for anamolies. The assumptions I will make are based on the
      > well founded observations and Fleming's right hand rule. I will
      > assume that Lindzen/Fu's La Nina "iris" are electrical to these
      rules
      > that when currents and winds are sustained they induct a field that
      > sustains cirrus, feedsback IR levels that in turn warm oceans and
      > increases precip.
      >
      > This requires, per Fleming's rule, that the currents and winds are
      in
      > the east to west direction for electrical enhancement, where a
      vector
      > of electrons rises upward out of the ocean. OTOH, if the movement
      of
      > ocean current and winds are east to west, the resulting induction
      > gives a field of electrons moving into the ocean, against cirrus
      > behavior being enhanced, resulting in colder SSTs, low cloud IR
      > characteristics and so forth.
      >
      > The warmer a conducter as in the oceans, the better it will induct.
      > Think of it this way. Imagine you had an electrical generater, and
      > instead of having copper wires used for the induction, you used
      > something less conductive. Result? Less power output.
      >
      > In early January 1997 assume two cooling factors on the oceans in
      > general. One, we were post flaring min. While the flaring cycle is
      > not significant from a radiation standpoint, less than 2% change
      from
      > what I have read, it is electrically interesting, and enhances
      > cirrus, causing as much as a 20% change in heat energy from min to
      > max. Whether you agree with this as an electrical feature of
      flaring
      > or not, it doesn't matter--observation of warming during the solar
      > max is without serious contention. Two, we were post Mt. Pinatubo.
      > SOx emissions from volcanoes drop the phase change temp of cirrus
      and
      > hence reduce Gaia warming impacts. Again, whether you agree this is
      > an electrical feature or not, cooling and SOx have been observed
      and
      > go without serious dispute.
      >
      > Now, switch to early January 2002 to date. This was during,
      following
      > a second peak of the flaring cycle. There has been a significant
      > lapse since a volcanic event, and SOx emissions in the air have
      been
      > low.
      >
      > Okay. In Jan 97 there was incredible rains to California:
      >
      > http://water.wr.usgs.gov/flood97/
      >
      > This was from what is called the Pine-apple express. Now, go back
      to
      > the SST page:
      >
      > http://psbsgi1.nesdis.noaa.gov:8080/PSB/EPS/SST/climo.html
      >
      > Go to January 7, 1997.
      >
      http://www.osdpd.noaa.gov/PSB/EPS/SST/climo_archive/data/anomnight.1.6
      > .1997.gif
      >
      > Note the La Nina conditions (low flaring, positive SOI) and the
      warm
      > SSTs running from the Hawaiian Islands to California. Also notice
      > that the Antarctica Southern Ocean's circumpolar contains warm
      > anomalies (which will figure in the El Nino that is to come). The
      > gyres in general at that time were colder. That means, per the
      rules
      > and assumptions I have given above, that the west to east
      > circumpolar, for instance, is going to have colder ocean
      temperatures
      > in general, and that causes LESS induction AGAINST cirrus, counter
      > intuitively WARMING SSTs. The west to east moving part of the
      gyres,
      > especially the N. Pacific, can also be seen to move AGAINST the
      > cirrus, electrically, LESS, producing the warm SSTs and then the
      > storms of the Pine apple.
      >
      > Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically resulted in
      the
      > past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts glaciers and
      > produces cold SSTs from the cirrus behavior. And when these warmer
      > oceans get to moving west to east, as in off the coast of
      California,
      > they reduce cirrus strongly, cool SSTs, and dry things out.
      > California has received record low rainfall, consistant with this
      > notion.
      >
      > It's all electrical, baby!
    • fredwx
      You said Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically resulted in the past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts glaciers and produces cold
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 5, 2002
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        You said "Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically
        resulted in the past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts
        glaciers and produces cold SSTs from the cirrus behavior. And when
        these warmer oceans get to moving west to east, as in off the coast
        of California, they reduce cirrus strongly, cool SSTs, and dry things
        out. California has received record low rainfall, consistant with
        this notion."

        Could the warmer SST along the Antartic that are melting the ice
        cause in increase in freshwater overlying the saltwater and thus
        reducing the inflow of warmer surface currents from the north?


        --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/SeasonalClimateOutlook/SouthernOscil
        > lationIndex/30DaySOIValues/
        >
        > http://psbsgi1.nesdis.noaa.gov:8080/PSB/EPS/SST/climo.html
        >
        > Interesting w/ the SOI readings from flaring recently have been
        neg,
        > and yet even as SSTs around equatorial currents in the east Pac are
        > warming anomaly, to the south and north of that anomaly they
        remains
        > cold.
        >
        > What I am about to write is why this is absolutely the hottest
        place
        > on climate, right here, even as political headlines today are not
        > nearly as meaningful. If you can track, track, if you can see it,
        see
        > it. If not, STFU and listen until you can write something
        meaningful.
        > And as far as models predicting anything, like ENSO, they are all
        > crap because they start with SSTs and don't see the biological or
        the
        > electrical, especially how the biology modulates and becomes even
        > more important than what the sun is doing!
        >
        > I am simply going to do an compare and contrast two graphics after
        > making some assumptions. These are pictures, built on the same
        > dataset for anamolies. The assumptions I will make are based on the
        > well founded observations and Fleming's right hand rule. I will
        > assume that Lindzen/Fu's La Nina "iris" are electrical to these
        rules
        > that when currents and winds are sustained they induct a field that
        > sustains cirrus, feedsback IR levels that in turn warm oceans and
        > increases precip.
        >
        > This requires, per Fleming's rule, that the currents and winds are
        in
        > the east to west direction for electrical enhancement, where a
        vector
        > of electrons rises upward out of the ocean. OTOH, if the movement
        of
        > ocean current and winds are east to west, the resulting induction
        > gives a field of electrons moving into the ocean, against cirrus
        > behavior being enhanced, resulting in colder SSTs, low cloud IR
        > characteristics and so forth.
        >
        > The warmer a conducter as in the oceans, the better it will induct.
        > Think of it this way. Imagine you had an electrical generater, and
        > instead of having copper wires used for the induction, you used
        > something less conductive. Result? Less power output.
        >
        > In early January 1997 assume two cooling factors on the oceans in
        > general. One, we were post flaring min. While the flaring cycle is
        > not significant from a radiation standpoint, less than 2% change
        from
        > what I have read, it is electrically interesting, and enhances
        > cirrus, causing as much as a 20% change in heat energy from min to
        > max. Whether you agree with this as an electrical feature of
        flaring
        > or not, it doesn't matter--observation of warming during the solar
        > max is without serious contention. Two, we were post Mt. Pinatubo.
        > SOx emissions from volcanoes drop the phase change temp of cirrus
        and
        > hence reduce Gaia warming impacts. Again, whether you agree this is
        > an electrical feature or not, cooling and SOx have been observed
        and
        > go without serious dispute.
        >
        > Now, switch to early January 2002 to date. This was during,
        following
        > a second peak of the flaring cycle. There has been a significant
        > lapse since a volcanic event, and SOx emissions in the air have
        been
        > low.
        >
        > Okay. In Jan 97 there was incredible rains to California:
        >
        > http://water.wr.usgs.gov/flood97/
        >
        > This was from what is called the Pine-apple express. Now, go back
        to
        > the SST page:
        >
        > http://psbsgi1.nesdis.noaa.gov:8080/PSB/EPS/SST/climo.html
        >
        > Go to January 7, 1997.
        >
        http://www.osdpd.noaa.gov/PSB/EPS/SST/climo_archive/data/anomnight.1.6
        > .1997.gif
        >
        > Note the La Nina conditions (low flaring, positive SOI) and the
        warm
        > SSTs running from the Hawaiian Islands to California. Also notice
        > that the Antarctica Southern Ocean's circumpolar contains warm
        > anomalies (which will figure in the El Nino that is to come). The
        > gyres in general at that time were colder. That means, per the
        rules
        > and assumptions I have given above, that the west to east
        > circumpolar, for instance, is going to have colder ocean
        temperatures
        > in general, and that causes LESS induction AGAINST cirrus, counter
        > intuitively WARMING SSTs. The west to east moving part of the
        gyres,
        > especially the N. Pacific, can also be seen to move AGAINST the
        > cirrus, electrically, LESS, producing the warm SSTs and then the
        > storms of the Pine apple.
        >
        > Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically resulted in
        the
        > past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts glaciers and
        > produces cold SSTs from the cirrus behavior. And when these warmer
        > oceans get to moving west to east, as in off the coast of
        California,
        > they reduce cirrus strongly, cool SSTs, and dry things out.
        > California has received record low rainfall, consistant with this
        > notion.
        >
        > It's all electrical, baby!
      • pawnfart
        You said Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically resulted in the past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts glaciers and produces cold
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 6, 2002
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          You said "Conversely, with warmer oceans, this has electrically
          resulted in the past few months that the Southern Ocean both melts
          glaciers and produces cold SSTs from the cirrus behavior. And when
          these warmer oceans get to moving west to east, as in off the coast
          of California, they reduce cirrus strongly, cool SSTs, and dry things
          out. California has received record low rainfall, consistant with
          this notion."

          Could the warmer SST along the Antartic that are melting the ice
          cause in increase in freshwater overlying the saltwater and thus
          reducing the inflow of warmer surface currents from the north?

          +++

          There are two primary reasons why I doubt that the melting glaciers
          present a fresh water capping issue that "blocks" the Pacific gyre.
          This is consistant with the so-called conveyor belt theory
          popularized by Professor William Calvin of Washington University in
          Atlantic Monthly. The first reason is that the leading scholar
          pushing this theory, Dr. Warren B. White of Scripps in 1999 dropped
          his research following ENSO and all his papers were no longer
          online. Then he started to study cloud behavior in India, focusing
          on very complex cloud albedo models. In short, I think he too
          thought it was about clouds. The second reason is speed. The
          salinity wave moves very slowly if it moved just by diffusion and
          mixing. At the same time, he noted a coupling of pressures and
          salinity and temperatures, with interactions with the glacial ice,
          but like I said, he seemed unsatisfied with his own results in terms
          of explaining El Nino. The electrical explaination not only gives
          the speed required to match the SSTs, but also links temperture and
          salinity with pressures--namely because the more conductive the water
          by being warm the more cirrus are reduced down wind from there, so
          you will have these persistant alternating salty and warm and cold
          and diluted patches he describes--including the interactions with the
          ice sheets. IOW, electrical movements of cirrus explains his
          findings--poor man gave up on himself. I emailed him and urged him
          to join our yahoo group but he wasn't apparently interested or
          thought Gaia was valid.

          Another thing that has to be mentioned here. The Southern Ocean has
          some life from the "upwellings" but doesn't have river sources of
          biological materials. But if you think about, say, the N. Atlantic,
          it is the ocean with the most rivers--yet is warmer and more saline
          than the Pacific! Why? Gaia, of course. The rivers cause more
          water to be taken from the Atlantic--because of the biological
          material insulating the ocean bottoms.

          ==========

          You said "The west to east moving part of the gyres, especially the
          N. Pacific, can also be seen to move AGAINST the cirrus,
          electrically, LESS, producing the warm SSTs and then the storms of
          the Pine apple."..

          You lost me here since the currents flow from off the California
          coast towards Hawaii (from the East towards the West)??

          +++

          I would be lost too if not familiar w/ the gyres. Stommel is the big
          researcher here of import, but there is also Eichmann and others.
          One interesting scholar on this subject is none other than Ben
          Franklin, who discovered the Gulf Stream when investigating why
          English mails were coming late, and American fishermen explained it
          to him and he documented their comments. But later it was proved
          that the Gulf Steam was part of a 'gyre', meaning it had a circular
          path. That was done by Prince Ranier's grandfather, who put
          thousands of bottles out into the N. Atlantic in 10 languages with
          instructions to mail the letters inside the bottles! The bottles
          moved in a circle. Okay, here is the catch. While the gyre moves in
          a circle, it is more of a spiraling path. What we are really
          discussing is a bulge of about 4 feet mid ocean, off center west,
          with the current on the surface moving "downhill". Coriolis right
          turns this and you get a circular deal. BUT, essentially, half of
          the gyre is moving the downhill direction from the center. Hence,
          there is indeed a current moving generally SW, in reality we are
          talking about a quadrant of surface currents moving SE, with coriolis
          right turning that current. Get it? That is why the most cirrus
          reduction, in terms of current direction, is in the NW quadrant of
          the gyres, while the most enhancment is in the SE quadrant. That
          said, these respective quadrants are warmer to the NW and colder to
          the SE because of their paths from and to the equatorial waters . . .

          ===========

          You said "when currents and winds are sustained they induct a field
          that sustains cirrus, feedsback IR levels that in turn warm oceans
          and increases precip.

          This requires, per Fleming's rule, that the currents and winds are in
          the east to west direction for electrical enhancement, where a vector
          of electrons rises upward out of the ocean."...

          The normal (non El Nino)flow of currents and wind in the tropics for
          the most part is from East towards the West. Are you talking about
          the normal conditions here? or did you mean West towards the East?

          ++++

          This is more complex so that you have to break it down so you can see
          what we are talking about electrically. The gyres move currents per
          Coriolis in this right turning manner from the gyre's top center,
          which is off centered west. I suspect that this movement is
          conceptually from the fact that the tropics are warmest, and, hence,
          as the air expands it spreads from the tropics with a Coriolis
          twist. That gives you the gyres. But the equatorial is a
          countercurrent to the gyres tropical edges. Now, the coriolis
          movement also generally will move the warmest WATERS west. That is
          why the West Pacific is warmer than the East Pacific. BUT, the
          counter current moves still warmer WATERS . . . EAST.

          NOW, enter winds. The SOI. This is the kicker because it shows how
          it is electrical and not about SSTs and thermodynamics. If the winds
          are moving from west to east, or the SOI is positive, the counter
          current will be enhanced. That counter intuitively means SSTs in the
          EAST cool! Why? Because the counter current, with these warm,
          electrically conductive currents, with the winds moving west to east
          is going to be even stronger and this means induction AGAINST cirrus,
          and electrically, cirrus are reduced in there to the east. OTOH, if
          the SOI is negitive, or blowing east to west, the counter current is
          going to be reduced AND, please read carefully and slowly, the
          gyres, which are not just about the part that coriolis turned east to
          west along the North and South Equatorial, but about the movement SE
          from the North gyre and NE from South gyre, that coriolis turns.
          That means that an expanding pressure from the Eastern Pacific will
          blow AGAINST cirrus REDUCTION. It will heat up the El Nino waters--
          electrically, especially if sustained enough to alter the gyres
          surface movements.

          But what CAUSES the SOI? Enter the sun. Ion particles sorted by
          SSTs and winds derived therefrom--that move the IR balances and the
          balances of air pressures. That is why flaring patterns can be
          predictive of the SOI and hence ENSO itself.
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