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Re: Thermo climatologist and I clash over monsoons and Gaia:

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  • pawnfart
    Fred, My reply is below. ... instance, ... that ... on ... and ... the ... moisture ... much ... Fred--there is an electrical aspect. That clear area will
    Message 1 of 4 , May 25, 2002
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      Fred,

      My reply is below.

      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > Mike said "--- Cold air falls down from the mountains, for
      instance,
      > toward the oceans where coriolis RIGHT TURNs these winds, winds
      that
      > are relatively very cold and would move hard against the ocean
      > surface, blowing the ocean currents, which causes an ocean current
      on
      > the surface that moves from EAST to WEST north of ambiant lows. To
      > the south of those ambiant lows, convection provides for cirrus,
      and
      > furthermore, convection has a much more up and down direction to
      the
      > south of the low, such that a west to east direction of wind on the
      > surface is not as big a cirrus reducer electrically."
      >
      > If you are referring to the winter NE Monsoon then yes. The ambient
      > low will be near or south of the equator. The prevailing wind flow
      > from the continent is from the NE flowing toward the SW. Since the
      > flow is moving from mountainous land areas towards the sea, it
      > undergoes heating as it moves to lower and lower elevations
      > (increasing air pressure) and since there is no new supply of
      moisture
      > the relative humidity drops. The result is dry clear skies over
      much
      > of the Northern Indian Ocean. There is little or no electrical
      > component to this.

      Fred--there is an electrical aspect. That clear area will have a
      voltage of positive 250 per meter. Then those waters will likely not
      get the same IR saving high clouds as you describe. That means these
      waters will tend to cool. Then, surface winds will be drawn to the
      low you describe and be RIGHT turned into the storm, causing that
      EAST to WEST induction.


      >
      > Currents:
      > http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~mattom/regoc/text/11circ.html

      Thank you for that link.

      >
      > During the summer monsoon the opposite occurs, the flow is from the
      > SW to the NE (from the cooler sea towards to warmer land). As the
      > warmer moist air is forced up the mountainside the air pressure
      > decreases and the relative humidity increases until clouds form and
      > the moisture is expelled as rain.

      But again there is cold air that drops after the moisture is gone
      that drops down. I agree circulation patterns change and the dynamic
      and SSTs change, but what doesn't change is fundimental rules of
      cirrus cloud or high cloud enhancement as it pertains to electrical
      field activity, and this is THE source of the warm, humid air.

      As far as the GOM is concerned, I agree currents are complex but in
      general there is a bulge in the middle of the GOM and water on the
      SURFACE flows down that bulge and coriolis right turns it and hence
      there is in general a clock wise gyre on the SURFACE. Further, while
      coriolis creates the gyre, the western half of the GOM generally
      moves on the surface to the west up to that surface, and that feature
      was what was electrically interesting about Allison, in terms of its
      electrcal, cirrus enhancing features.


      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
      > > Here is the guy--on another bb, who I clashed with--he wrote this
      > > paper and works for GFDL:
      > >
      > > http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~bac/annular_mode.pdf
      > >
      > > Benjamin A. Cash is his name, and here is my question to him.
      > > Questions for Ben. Please describe the electrical mechanism that
      > > causes the monsoon.
      > >
      > > "Questions for Mike. Is there anything in the atmosphere that you
      > > _don't_ attribute to electrical mechanisms? Do you remember that
      > you
      > > told me in a previous post that your mechanism doesn't apply over
      > > land?
      > >
      > > In a nutshell, the monsoon is a continental-scale version of the
      > sea-
      > > breeze phenomenon. During the summer months, the land warms much
      > more
      > > rapidly than the ocean, because water has a very high heat
      > capacity.
      > > That is to say, more energy is required to cause a given
      > temperature
      > > change in the ocean than in the land, and the land responds much
      > more
      > > quickly to the stronger summer radiaton. Warm air rises over the
      > > land, and moist air is drawn in from the ocean to replace it.
      This
      > > source of moisture, coupled with the rising air over the
      > > subcontinent, results in the torrential rains that characterize
      the
      > > monsoon.
      > >
      > > This is, of necessity, a gross simplification of what is a very
      > > complicated natural phenomena. There are complex and poorly
      > > understood interactions between the low-level flow and the
      mountain
      > > ranges, as well as the latent heat released during the massive
      > > convection accompanying the monsoon rains. But this is the basic
      > > mechanism."
      > >
      > > ++++
      > >
      > > I expanded his example by commenting that cold air also falls
      down
      > > from the mountains. And I would also add that in the night the
      air
      > > over the land cools faster. Plus the warming air rises to the
      > > mountains over the land and pushes the cold air down. I
      commented
      > > that the poorly understood part is the electrical aspect and
      cirrus
      > > IR behavior. Cold air falls down from the mountains, for
      instance,
      > > toward the oceans where coriolis RIGHT TURNs these winds, winds
      > that
      > > are relatively very cold and would move hard against the ocean
      > > surface, blowing the ocean currents, which causes an ocean
      current
      > on
      > > the surface that moves from EAST to WEST north of ambiant lows.
      To
      > > the south of those ambiant lows, convection provides for cirrus,
      > and
      > > furthermore, convection has a much more up and down direction to
      > the
      > > south of the low, such that a west to east direction of wind on
      the
      > > surface is not as big a cirrus reducer electrically.
      > >
      > > The latent heat released during the massive convection he
      mentioned
      > > is a factor is more important to the south of a low, but what
      > causes
      > > the monsoon has far more to do with in air IR characteristics
      > > garnered by electrical conditions as they pertain to the cirrus
      and
      > > the cloud cover then it has to do with SSTs, in my view. IOW, the
      > > monsoons require specific SST to land temperatures not because of
      > the
      > > heat contained in the oceans but because once a proper electrical
      > > balance is made with the induction and the specific conductivity
      of
      > > the oceans and even with the insulation in the ocean near the
      > > terresphere/hydrology source from hydrates, biological activity--
      > then
      > > it is monsoon season. Indeed, the requirement is a balance of
      the
      > > induction from the cold winds to the north of the ambiant lows
      and
      > > the warm oceans to the south of it, but with the added feature
      that
      > > what we are talking about is cirrus that are entrained from ocean
      > to
      > > land, and unlike a tropical storm which has a circular but
      > > electrically asymetrical movement induction by direction of
      > currents,
      > > a monsoonal flow is more about entrainment over the induction
      > feature
      > > from the convection.
      > >
      > > Those who are limited by thermodyanics as their modeling
      reference
      > > think of the monsoon like a sea breeze, but that clearly does not
      > > take into account the electrical features of the monsoon.
      > >
      > > A tropical storm differs from a monsoonal flow. A tropical storm
      > dies
      > > over land because the entrainment of cirrus is self contained
      over
      > > the surface low. In the case of a monsoonal flow, the electrical
      > > aspects are connected to the land by the conductivity of the
      water
      > in
      > > the air and this allows cirrus over land, in continuum from the
      > > oceans, to have a capacitive impact on the cirrus behavior.
      > >
      > > What is interesting about the supposedly regional organization of
      > the
      > > monsoon. One does not think about the GOM as a place where
      > monsoons
      > > can occur, yet we think of, say, India. Why? In my view,
      however,
      > > when we start talking about storms like Allison or Caracus 1999
      > what
      > > we really have is an expression of climate change were some of
      the
      > > required freatures of monsoonal flow occurred. Same with the
      > Algiers
      > > storm December last year.
      > >
      > > Where does the strongest cirrus entrainment eminate from? Where
      are
      > > the big mountains where cold air would flow down? In the
      Southwest
      > > there isn't a problem with mountains along the Mexican coast, for
      > > sure. But what about the GOM? See--that is a problem for cold
      > air.
      > > The GOM has a gyre, indeed, that typically flows in a clock wise
      > > circle that itself would not lend itself to the east to west
      > movement
      > > of currents. Hence, a monsoon does not flow from the GOM--
      BECAUSE
      > > WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ELECTRICAL! Where are the big rivers
      > > that would provide biological material to the near shoreline
      oceans-
      > -
      > > that is another question to ask electrically about the SW and its
      > > drought, as well as the Rio and the Mississippi.
      > >
      > > In the case of the GOM, given the fact that the gyre already
      moves
      > > the way it does, Allison had this interesting feature where gyre
      > and
      > > circulation seemed to aid it and it was able to stall out over
      land
      > > almost like a monsoonal occurance. A hybred, so to speak. I
      know
      > I
      > > have mentioned here how half the GOM was covered by cirrus as the
      > low
      > > sat over Texas and drew up all the moisture underneath that
      cirrus.
      > >
      > >
      > > The key part here about a monsoonal flow is the cold air drawn
      down
      > > and right turned into the low. Once you get that wind moving EAST
      > to
      > > WEST on the oceans you are going to have electrical conditions
      that
      > > favor cirrus enhancement. The monsoon in the SW, also involves
      the
      > E.
      > > Pac and Gulf of California in the same manner. Of interest in
      > > watching this low and where it would go is to understand that
      > Florida
      > > is flat and you aren't going to have cold winds coming down from
      > the
      > > mountains. So the storm really has to have tropical features all
      > the
      > > way, and that opens up issues like shear. If the storm is
      > > extratropical, then the cold core loses the electrical
      conductivity
      > > that causes the electrical conditions that enhance cirrus, that
      > make
      > > for the storms ability to cause energies to be retained in the
      > storm
      > > rather then escaping into space.
      > >
      > > The monsoons are also probably impacted by space weather and the
      > > orbit of the earth, its tilt, and so forth, much like rains hit
      > > Seattle in the winter, as well as the biosphere and SSTs. The
      QBO
      > is
      > > a feature that IMHO in part is a measure of electrical
      conditions.
      > If
      > > dams delay water and rotting materials to the oceans, and it sure
      > > seems like the SEASONS have been delayed by a delay in activity
      in
      > > the biosphere, too. This will change the electrical dynamic as
      it
      > > interacts with the thermal, and is why, IMHO we had an Allison
      and
      > a
      > > Carucus, 1999.
      > >
      > > A pin hole eyed cane, for instance, IMHO is simply this idea that
      a
      > > TS has banding. That means there is more then just this low
      center
      > > pressure that is warm core and has convection and huge electron
      > > charges above it. It also has banding that has extra tropical
      > > features. While the warm core center will attract positive
      charges
      > > all around it, and that IMHO enhances cirrus just as over the eye
      > > they are repulsed, with a pin hole eye the winds on the surface
      > > inducting a current become so strong that the electrical charge
      > over
      > > the eye is so great that even banding is lost as a feature. The
      > eye
      > > is allowed, electrically, to become smaller still.
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