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Thermo climatologist and I clash over monsoons and Gaia:

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  • pawnfart
    Here is the guy--on another bb, who I clashed with--he wrote this paper and works for GFDL: http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~bac/annular_mode.pdf Benjamin A. Cash is
    Message 1 of 4 , May 25 12:27 AM
      Here is the guy--on another bb, who I clashed with--he wrote this
      paper and works for GFDL:

      http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~bac/annular_mode.pdf

      Benjamin A. Cash is his name, and here is my question to him.
      Questions for Ben. Please describe the electrical mechanism that
      causes the monsoon.

      "Questions for Mike. Is there anything in the atmosphere that you
      _don't_ attribute to electrical mechanisms? Do you remember that you
      told me in a previous post that your mechanism doesn't apply over
      land?

      In a nutshell, the monsoon is a continental-scale version of the sea-
      breeze phenomenon. During the summer months, the land warms much more
      rapidly than the ocean, because water has a very high heat capacity.
      That is to say, more energy is required to cause a given temperature
      change in the ocean than in the land, and the land responds much more
      quickly to the stronger summer radiaton. Warm air rises over the
      land, and moist air is drawn in from the ocean to replace it. This
      source of moisture, coupled with the rising air over the
      subcontinent, results in the torrential rains that characterize the
      monsoon.

      This is, of necessity, a gross simplification of what is a very
      complicated natural phenomena. There are complex and poorly
      understood interactions between the low-level flow and the mountain
      ranges, as well as the latent heat released during the massive
      convection accompanying the monsoon rains. But this is the basic
      mechanism."

      ++++

      I expanded his example by commenting that cold air also falls down
      from the mountains. And I would also add that in the night the air
      over the land cools faster. Plus the warming air rises to the
      mountains over the land and pushes the cold air down. I commented
      that the poorly understood part is the electrical aspect and cirrus
      IR behavior. Cold air falls down from the mountains, for instance,
      toward the oceans where coriolis RIGHT TURNs these winds, winds that
      are relatively very cold and would move hard against the ocean
      surface, blowing the ocean currents, which causes an ocean current on
      the surface that moves from EAST to WEST north of ambiant lows. To
      the south of those ambiant lows, convection provides for cirrus, and
      furthermore, convection has a much more up and down direction to the
      south of the low, such that a west to east direction of wind on the
      surface is not as big a cirrus reducer electrically.

      The latent heat released during the massive convection he mentioned
      is a factor is more important to the south of a low, but what causes
      the monsoon has far more to do with in air IR characteristics
      garnered by electrical conditions as they pertain to the cirrus and
      the cloud cover then it has to do with SSTs, in my view. IOW, the
      monsoons require specific SST to land temperatures not because of the
      heat contained in the oceans but because once a proper electrical
      balance is made with the induction and the specific conductivity of
      the oceans and even with the insulation in the ocean near the
      terresphere/hydrology source from hydrates, biological activity--then
      it is monsoon season. Indeed, the requirement is a balance of the
      induction from the cold winds to the north of the ambiant lows and
      the warm oceans to the south of it, but with the added feature that
      what we are talking about is cirrus that are entrained from ocean to
      land, and unlike a tropical storm which has a circular but
      electrically asymetrical movement induction by direction of currents,
      a monsoonal flow is more about entrainment over the induction feature
      from the convection.

      Those who are limited by thermodyanics as their modeling reference
      think of the monsoon like a sea breeze, but that clearly does not
      take into account the electrical features of the monsoon.

      A tropical storm differs from a monsoonal flow. A tropical storm dies
      over land because the entrainment of cirrus is self contained over
      the surface low. In the case of a monsoonal flow, the electrical
      aspects are connected to the land by the conductivity of the water in
      the air and this allows cirrus over land, in continuum from the
      oceans, to have a capacitive impact on the cirrus behavior.

      What is interesting about the supposedly regional organization of the
      monsoon. One does not think about the GOM as a place where monsoons
      can occur, yet we think of, say, India. Why? In my view, however,
      when we start talking about storms like Allison or Caracus 1999 what
      we really have is an expression of climate change were some of the
      required freatures of monsoonal flow occurred. Same with the Algiers
      storm December last year.

      Where does the strongest cirrus entrainment eminate from? Where are
      the big mountains where cold air would flow down? In the Southwest
      there isn't a problem with mountains along the Mexican coast, for
      sure. But what about the GOM? See--that is a problem for cold air.
      The GOM has a gyre, indeed, that typically flows in a clock wise
      circle that itself would not lend itself to the east to west movement
      of currents. Hence, a monsoon does not flow from the GOM--BECAUSE
      WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ELECTRICAL! Where are the big rivers
      that would provide biological material to the near shoreline oceans--
      that is another question to ask electrically about the SW and its
      drought, as well as the Rio and the Mississippi.

      In the case of the GOM, given the fact that the gyre already moves
      the way it does, Allison had this interesting feature where gyre and
      circulation seemed to aid it and it was able to stall out over land
      almost like a monsoonal occurance. A hybred, so to speak. I know I
      have mentioned here how half the GOM was covered by cirrus as the low
      sat over Texas and drew up all the moisture underneath that cirrus.


      The key part here about a monsoonal flow is the cold air drawn down
      and right turned into the low. Once you get that wind moving EAST to
      WEST on the oceans you are going to have electrical conditions that
      favor cirrus enhancement. The monsoon in the SW, also involves the E.
      Pac and Gulf of California in the same manner. Of interest in
      watching this low and where it would go is to understand that Florida
      is flat and you aren't going to have cold winds coming down from the
      mountains. So the storm really has to have tropical features all the
      way, and that opens up issues like shear. If the storm is
      extratropical, then the cold core loses the electrical conductivity
      that causes the electrical conditions that enhance cirrus, that make
      for the storms ability to cause energies to be retained in the storm
      rather then escaping into space.

      The monsoons are also probably impacted by space weather and the
      orbit of the earth, its tilt, and so forth, much like rains hit
      Seattle in the winter, as well as the biosphere and SSTs. The QBO is
      a feature that IMHO in part is a measure of electrical conditions. If
      dams delay water and rotting materials to the oceans, and it sure
      seems like the SEASONS have been delayed by a delay in activity in
      the biosphere, too. This will change the electrical dynamic as it
      interacts with the thermal, and is why, IMHO we had an Allison and a
      Carucus, 1999.

      A pin hole eyed cane, for instance, IMHO is simply this idea that a
      TS has banding. That means there is more then just this low center
      pressure that is warm core and has convection and huge electron
      charges above it. It also has banding that has extra tropical
      features. While the warm core center will attract positive charges
      all around it, and that IMHO enhances cirrus just as over the eye
      they are repulsed, with a pin hole eye the winds on the surface
      inducting a current become so strong that the electrical charge over
      the eye is so great that even banding is lost as a feature. The eye
      is allowed, electrically, to become smaller still.
    • fredwx
      Mike said --- Cold air falls down from the mountains, for instance, toward the oceans where coriolis RIGHT TURNs these winds, winds that are relatively very
      Message 2 of 4 , May 25 7:02 AM
        Mike said "--- Cold air falls down from the mountains, for instance,
        toward the oceans where coriolis RIGHT TURNs these winds, winds that
        are relatively very cold and would move hard against the ocean
        surface, blowing the ocean currents, which causes an ocean current on
        the surface that moves from EAST to WEST north of ambiant lows. To
        the south of those ambiant lows, convection provides for cirrus, and
        furthermore, convection has a much more up and down direction to the
        south of the low, such that a west to east direction of wind on the
        surface is not as big a cirrus reducer electrically."

        If you are referring to the winter NE Monsoon then yes. The ambient
        low will be near or south of the equator. The prevailing wind flow
        from the continent is from the NE flowing toward the SW. Since the
        flow is moving from mountainous land areas towards the sea, it
        undergoes heating as it moves to lower and lower elevations
        (increasing air pressure) and since there is no new supply of moisture
        the relative humidity drops. The result is dry clear skies over much
        of the Northern Indian Ocean. There is little or no electrical
        component to this.

        Currents:
        http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~mattom/regoc/text/11circ.html

        During the summer monsoon the opposite occurs, the flow is from the
        SW to the NE (from the cooler sea towards to warmer land). As the
        warmer moist air is forced up the mountainside the air pressure
        decreases and the relative humidity increases until clouds form and
        the moisture is expelled as rain.





        In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
        > Here is the guy--on another bb, who I clashed with--he wrote this
        > paper and works for GFDL:
        >
        > http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~bac/annular_mode.pdf
        >
        > Benjamin A. Cash is his name, and here is my question to him.
        > Questions for Ben. Please describe the electrical mechanism that
        > causes the monsoon.
        >
        > "Questions for Mike. Is there anything in the atmosphere that you
        > _don't_ attribute to electrical mechanisms? Do you remember that
        you
        > told me in a previous post that your mechanism doesn't apply over
        > land?
        >
        > In a nutshell, the monsoon is a continental-scale version of the
        sea-
        > breeze phenomenon. During the summer months, the land warms much
        more
        > rapidly than the ocean, because water has a very high heat
        capacity.
        > That is to say, more energy is required to cause a given
        temperature
        > change in the ocean than in the land, and the land responds much
        more
        > quickly to the stronger summer radiaton. Warm air rises over the
        > land, and moist air is drawn in from the ocean to replace it. This
        > source of moisture, coupled with the rising air over the
        > subcontinent, results in the torrential rains that characterize the
        > monsoon.
        >
        > This is, of necessity, a gross simplification of what is a very
        > complicated natural phenomena. There are complex and poorly
        > understood interactions between the low-level flow and the mountain
        > ranges, as well as the latent heat released during the massive
        > convection accompanying the monsoon rains. But this is the basic
        > mechanism."
        >
        > ++++
        >
        > I expanded his example by commenting that cold air also falls down
        > from the mountains. And I would also add that in the night the air
        > over the land cools faster. Plus the warming air rises to the
        > mountains over the land and pushes the cold air down. I commented
        > that the poorly understood part is the electrical aspect and cirrus
        > IR behavior. Cold air falls down from the mountains, for instance,
        > toward the oceans where coriolis RIGHT TURNs these winds, winds
        that
        > are relatively very cold and would move hard against the ocean
        > surface, blowing the ocean currents, which causes an ocean current
        on
        > the surface that moves from EAST to WEST north of ambiant lows. To
        > the south of those ambiant lows, convection provides for cirrus,
        and
        > furthermore, convection has a much more up and down direction to
        the
        > south of the low, such that a west to east direction of wind on the
        > surface is not as big a cirrus reducer electrically.
        >
        > The latent heat released during the massive convection he mentioned
        > is a factor is more important to the south of a low, but what
        causes
        > the monsoon has far more to do with in air IR characteristics
        > garnered by electrical conditions as they pertain to the cirrus and
        > the cloud cover then it has to do with SSTs, in my view. IOW, the
        > monsoons require specific SST to land temperatures not because of
        the
        > heat contained in the oceans but because once a proper electrical
        > balance is made with the induction and the specific conductivity of
        > the oceans and even with the insulation in the ocean near the
        > terresphere/hydrology source from hydrates, biological activity--
        then
        > it is monsoon season. Indeed, the requirement is a balance of the
        > induction from the cold winds to the north of the ambiant lows and
        > the warm oceans to the south of it, but with the added feature that
        > what we are talking about is cirrus that are entrained from ocean
        to
        > land, and unlike a tropical storm which has a circular but
        > electrically asymetrical movement induction by direction of
        currents,
        > a monsoonal flow is more about entrainment over the induction
        feature
        > from the convection.
        >
        > Those who are limited by thermodyanics as their modeling reference
        > think of the monsoon like a sea breeze, but that clearly does not
        > take into account the electrical features of the monsoon.
        >
        > A tropical storm differs from a monsoonal flow. A tropical storm
        dies
        > over land because the entrainment of cirrus is self contained over
        > the surface low. In the case of a monsoonal flow, the electrical
        > aspects are connected to the land by the conductivity of the water
        in
        > the air and this allows cirrus over land, in continuum from the
        > oceans, to have a capacitive impact on the cirrus behavior.
        >
        > What is interesting about the supposedly regional organization of
        the
        > monsoon. One does not think about the GOM as a place where
        monsoons
        > can occur, yet we think of, say, India. Why? In my view, however,
        > when we start talking about storms like Allison or Caracus 1999
        what
        > we really have is an expression of climate change were some of the
        > required freatures of monsoonal flow occurred. Same with the
        Algiers
        > storm December last year.
        >
        > Where does the strongest cirrus entrainment eminate from? Where are
        > the big mountains where cold air would flow down? In the Southwest
        > there isn't a problem with mountains along the Mexican coast, for
        > sure. But what about the GOM? See--that is a problem for cold
        air.
        > The GOM has a gyre, indeed, that typically flows in a clock wise
        > circle that itself would not lend itself to the east to west
        movement
        > of currents. Hence, a monsoon does not flow from the GOM--BECAUSE
        > WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ELECTRICAL! Where are the big rivers
        > that would provide biological material to the near shoreline oceans-
        -
        > that is another question to ask electrically about the SW and its
        > drought, as well as the Rio and the Mississippi.
        >
        > In the case of the GOM, given the fact that the gyre already moves
        > the way it does, Allison had this interesting feature where gyre
        and
        > circulation seemed to aid it and it was able to stall out over land
        > almost like a monsoonal occurance. A hybred, so to speak. I know
        I
        > have mentioned here how half the GOM was covered by cirrus as the
        low
        > sat over Texas and drew up all the moisture underneath that cirrus.
        >
        >
        > The key part here about a monsoonal flow is the cold air drawn down
        > and right turned into the low. Once you get that wind moving EAST
        to
        > WEST on the oceans you are going to have electrical conditions that
        > favor cirrus enhancement. The monsoon in the SW, also involves the
        E.
        > Pac and Gulf of California in the same manner. Of interest in
        > watching this low and where it would go is to understand that
        Florida
        > is flat and you aren't going to have cold winds coming down from
        the
        > mountains. So the storm really has to have tropical features all
        the
        > way, and that opens up issues like shear. If the storm is
        > extratropical, then the cold core loses the electrical conductivity
        > that causes the electrical conditions that enhance cirrus, that
        make
        > for the storms ability to cause energies to be retained in the
        storm
        > rather then escaping into space.
        >
        > The monsoons are also probably impacted by space weather and the
        > orbit of the earth, its tilt, and so forth, much like rains hit
        > Seattle in the winter, as well as the biosphere and SSTs. The QBO
        is
        > a feature that IMHO in part is a measure of electrical conditions.
        If
        > dams delay water and rotting materials to the oceans, and it sure
        > seems like the SEASONS have been delayed by a delay in activity in
        > the biosphere, too. This will change the electrical dynamic as it
        > interacts with the thermal, and is why, IMHO we had an Allison and
        a
        > Carucus, 1999.
        >
        > A pin hole eyed cane, for instance, IMHO is simply this idea that a
        > TS has banding. That means there is more then just this low center
        > pressure that is warm core and has convection and huge electron
        > charges above it. It also has banding that has extra tropical
        > features. While the warm core center will attract positive charges
        > all around it, and that IMHO enhances cirrus just as over the eye
        > they are repulsed, with a pin hole eye the winds on the surface
        > inducting a current become so strong that the electrical charge
        over
        > the eye is so great that even banding is lost as a feature. The
        eye
        > is allowed, electrically, to become smaller still.
      • fredwx
        Mike said The GOM has a gyre, indeed, that typically flows in a clock wise circle that itself would not lend itself to the east to west movement of currents.
        Message 3 of 4 , May 25 7:21 AM
          Mike said "The GOM has a gyre, indeed, that typically flows in a
          clock wise circle that itself would not lend itself to the east to
          west movement of currents. Hence, a monsoon does not flow from the
          GOM--BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ELECTRICAL!"

          The currents in the GOM are even more complex. There is a south to
          north flow in the middle of the Gulf (currents originating in the
          Caribbean) that split as the approach the Central Gulf coast (near
          the Mississippi outlet). Part branches off to towards the east and
          later flows southward off the coast of Florida, and part turns west
          and later south along the coast of Texas. This creates two gyres (one
          clockwise in the eastern Gulf and one counter-clockwise in the
          western Gulf.

          There is a modified monsoon flow over the GOM with prevailing NE
          winds during the winter and SE winds during the summer. The effects
          are modified by much smaller mountains over the Eastern US and by the
          Atlantic Ocean just to the east. Any electrical component (IMHO) is
          minor or negligible.

          Allison was caused by above normal SST's and weak upper level winds.
          BTW, the GOM again has above normal SST's this spring so I am
          expecting an early start to the Tropial Storm season.




          --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
          > Here is the guy--on another bb, who I clashed with--he wrote this
          > paper and works for GFDL:
          >
          > http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~bac/annular_mode.pdf
          >
          > Benjamin A. Cash is his name, and here is my question to him.
          > Questions for Ben. Please describe the electrical mechanism that
          > causes the monsoon.
          >
          > "Questions for Mike. Is there anything in the atmosphere that you
          > _don't_ attribute to electrical mechanisms? Do you remember that
          you
          > told me in a previous post that your mechanism doesn't apply over
          > land?
          >
          > In a nutshell, the monsoon is a continental-scale version of the
          sea-
          > breeze phenomenon. During the summer months, the land warms much
          more
          > rapidly than the ocean, because water has a very high heat
          capacity.
          > That is to say, more energy is required to cause a given
          temperature
          > change in the ocean than in the land, and the land responds much
          more
          > quickly to the stronger summer radiaton. Warm air rises over the
          > land, and moist air is drawn in from the ocean to replace it. This
          > source of moisture, coupled with the rising air over the
          > subcontinent, results in the torrential rains that characterize the
          > monsoon.
          >
          > This is, of necessity, a gross simplification of what is a very
          > complicated natural phenomena. There are complex and poorly
          > understood interactions between the low-level flow and the mountain
          > ranges, as well as the latent heat released during the massive
          > convection accompanying the monsoon rains. But this is the basic
          > mechanism."
          >
          > ++++
          >
          > I expanded his example by commenting that cold air also falls down
          > from the mountains. And I would also add that in the night the air
          > over the land cools faster. Plus the warming air rises to the
          > mountains over the land and pushes the cold air down. I commented
          > that the poorly understood part is the electrical aspect and cirrus
          > IR behavior. Cold air falls down from the mountains, for instance,
          > toward the oceans where coriolis RIGHT TURNs these winds, winds
          that
          > are relatively very cold and would move hard against the ocean
          > surface, blowing the ocean currents, which causes an ocean current
          on
          > the surface that moves from EAST to WEST north of ambiant lows. To
          > the south of those ambiant lows, convection provides for cirrus,
          and
          > furthermore, convection has a much more up and down direction to
          the
          > south of the low, such that a west to east direction of wind on the
          > surface is not as big a cirrus reducer electrically.
          >
          > The latent heat released during the massive convection he mentioned
          > is a factor is more important to the south of a low, but what
          causes
          > the monsoon has far more to do with in air IR characteristics
          > garnered by electrical conditions as they pertain to the cirrus and
          > the cloud cover then it has to do with SSTs, in my view. IOW, the
          > monsoons require specific SST to land temperatures not because of
          the
          > heat contained in the oceans but because once a proper electrical
          > balance is made with the induction and the specific conductivity of
          > the oceans and even with the insulation in the ocean near the
          > terresphere/hydrology source from hydrates, biological activity--
          then
          > it is monsoon season. Indeed, the requirement is a balance of the
          > induction from the cold winds to the north of the ambiant lows and
          > the warm oceans to the south of it, but with the added feature that
          > what we are talking about is cirrus that are entrained from ocean
          to
          > land, and unlike a tropical storm which has a circular but
          > electrically asymetrical movement induction by direction of
          currents,
          > a monsoonal flow is more about entrainment over the induction
          feature
          > from the convection.
          >
          > Those who are limited by thermodyanics as their modeling reference
          > think of the monsoon like a sea breeze, but that clearly does not
          > take into account the electrical features of the monsoon.
          >
          > A tropical storm differs from a monsoonal flow. A tropical storm
          dies
          > over land because the entrainment of cirrus is self contained over
          > the surface low. In the case of a monsoonal flow, the electrical
          > aspects are connected to the land by the conductivity of the water
          in
          > the air and this allows cirrus over land, in continuum from the
          > oceans, to have a capacitive impact on the cirrus behavior.
          >
          > What is interesting about the supposedly regional organization of
          the
          > monsoon. One does not think about the GOM as a place where
          monsoons
          > can occur, yet we think of, say, India. Why? In my view, however,
          > when we start talking about storms like Allison or Caracus 1999
          what
          > we really have is an expression of climate change were some of the
          > required freatures of monsoonal flow occurred. Same with the
          Algiers
          > storm December last year.
          >
          > Where does the strongest cirrus entrainment eminate from? Where are
          > the big mountains where cold air would flow down? In the Southwest
          > there isn't a problem with mountains along the Mexican coast, for
          > sure. But what about the GOM? See--that is a problem for cold
          air.
          > The GOM has a gyre, indeed, that typically flows in a clock wise
          > circle that itself would not lend itself to the east to west
          movement
          > of currents. Hence, a monsoon does not flow from the GOM--BECAUSE
          > WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ELECTRICAL! Where are the big rivers
          > that would provide biological material to the near shoreline oceans-
          -
          > that is another question to ask electrically about the SW and its
          > drought, as well as the Rio and the Mississippi.
          >
          > In the case of the GOM, given the fact that the gyre already moves
          > the way it does, Allison had this interesting feature where gyre
          and
          > circulation seemed to aid it and it was able to stall out over land
          > almost like a monsoonal occurance. A hybred, so to speak. I know
          I
          > have mentioned here how half the GOM was covered by cirrus as the
          low
          > sat over Texas and drew up all the moisture underneath that cirrus.
          >
          >
          > The key part here about a monsoonal flow is the cold air drawn down
          > and right turned into the low. Once you get that wind moving EAST
          to
          > WEST on the oceans you are going to have electrical conditions that
          > favor cirrus enhancement. The monsoon in the SW, also involves the
          E.
          > Pac and Gulf of California in the same manner. Of interest in
          > watching this low and where it would go is to understand that
          Florida
          > is flat and you aren't going to have cold winds coming down from
          the
          > mountains. So the storm really has to have tropical features all
          the
          > way, and that opens up issues like shear. If the storm is
          > extratropical, then the cold core loses the electrical conductivity
          > that causes the electrical conditions that enhance cirrus, that
          make
          > for the storms ability to cause energies to be retained in the
          storm
          > rather then escaping into space.
          >
          > The monsoons are also probably impacted by space weather and the
          > orbit of the earth, its tilt, and so forth, much like rains hit
          > Seattle in the winter, as well as the biosphere and SSTs. The QBO
          is
          > a feature that IMHO in part is a measure of electrical conditions.
          If
          > dams delay water and rotting materials to the oceans, and it sure
          > seems like the SEASONS have been delayed by a delay in activity in
          > the biosphere, too. This will change the electrical dynamic as it
          > interacts with the thermal, and is why, IMHO we had an Allison and
          a
          > Carucus, 1999.
          >
          > A pin hole eyed cane, for instance, IMHO is simply this idea that a
          > TS has banding. That means there is more then just this low center
          > pressure that is warm core and has convection and huge electron
          > charges above it. It also has banding that has extra tropical
          > features. While the warm core center will attract positive charges
          > all around it, and that IMHO enhances cirrus just as over the eye
          > they are repulsed, with a pin hole eye the winds on the surface
          > inducting a current become so strong that the electrical charge
          over
          > the eye is so great that even banding is lost as a feature. The
          eye
          > is allowed, electrically, to become smaller still.
        • pawnfart
          Fred, My reply is below. ... instance, ... that ... on ... and ... the ... moisture ... much ... Fred--there is an electrical aspect. That clear area will
          Message 4 of 4 , May 25 2:08 PM
            Fred,

            My reply is below.

            --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Mike said "--- Cold air falls down from the mountains, for
            instance,
            > toward the oceans where coriolis RIGHT TURNs these winds, winds
            that
            > are relatively very cold and would move hard against the ocean
            > surface, blowing the ocean currents, which causes an ocean current
            on
            > the surface that moves from EAST to WEST north of ambiant lows. To
            > the south of those ambiant lows, convection provides for cirrus,
            and
            > furthermore, convection has a much more up and down direction to
            the
            > south of the low, such that a west to east direction of wind on the
            > surface is not as big a cirrus reducer electrically."
            >
            > If you are referring to the winter NE Monsoon then yes. The ambient
            > low will be near or south of the equator. The prevailing wind flow
            > from the continent is from the NE flowing toward the SW. Since the
            > flow is moving from mountainous land areas towards the sea, it
            > undergoes heating as it moves to lower and lower elevations
            > (increasing air pressure) and since there is no new supply of
            moisture
            > the relative humidity drops. The result is dry clear skies over
            much
            > of the Northern Indian Ocean. There is little or no electrical
            > component to this.

            Fred--there is an electrical aspect. That clear area will have a
            voltage of positive 250 per meter. Then those waters will likely not
            get the same IR saving high clouds as you describe. That means these
            waters will tend to cool. Then, surface winds will be drawn to the
            low you describe and be RIGHT turned into the storm, causing that
            EAST to WEST induction.


            >
            > Currents:
            > http://www.es.flinders.edu.au/~mattom/regoc/text/11circ.html

            Thank you for that link.

            >
            > During the summer monsoon the opposite occurs, the flow is from the
            > SW to the NE (from the cooler sea towards to warmer land). As the
            > warmer moist air is forced up the mountainside the air pressure
            > decreases and the relative humidity increases until clouds form and
            > the moisture is expelled as rain.

            But again there is cold air that drops after the moisture is gone
            that drops down. I agree circulation patterns change and the dynamic
            and SSTs change, but what doesn't change is fundimental rules of
            cirrus cloud or high cloud enhancement as it pertains to electrical
            field activity, and this is THE source of the warm, humid air.

            As far as the GOM is concerned, I agree currents are complex but in
            general there is a bulge in the middle of the GOM and water on the
            SURFACE flows down that bulge and coriolis right turns it and hence
            there is in general a clock wise gyre on the SURFACE. Further, while
            coriolis creates the gyre, the western half of the GOM generally
            moves on the surface to the west up to that surface, and that feature
            was what was electrically interesting about Allison, in terms of its
            electrcal, cirrus enhancing features.


            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
            > > Here is the guy--on another bb, who I clashed with--he wrote this
            > > paper and works for GFDL:
            > >
            > > http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~bac/annular_mode.pdf
            > >
            > > Benjamin A. Cash is his name, and here is my question to him.
            > > Questions for Ben. Please describe the electrical mechanism that
            > > causes the monsoon.
            > >
            > > "Questions for Mike. Is there anything in the atmosphere that you
            > > _don't_ attribute to electrical mechanisms? Do you remember that
            > you
            > > told me in a previous post that your mechanism doesn't apply over
            > > land?
            > >
            > > In a nutshell, the monsoon is a continental-scale version of the
            > sea-
            > > breeze phenomenon. During the summer months, the land warms much
            > more
            > > rapidly than the ocean, because water has a very high heat
            > capacity.
            > > That is to say, more energy is required to cause a given
            > temperature
            > > change in the ocean than in the land, and the land responds much
            > more
            > > quickly to the stronger summer radiaton. Warm air rises over the
            > > land, and moist air is drawn in from the ocean to replace it.
            This
            > > source of moisture, coupled with the rising air over the
            > > subcontinent, results in the torrential rains that characterize
            the
            > > monsoon.
            > >
            > > This is, of necessity, a gross simplification of what is a very
            > > complicated natural phenomena. There are complex and poorly
            > > understood interactions between the low-level flow and the
            mountain
            > > ranges, as well as the latent heat released during the massive
            > > convection accompanying the monsoon rains. But this is the basic
            > > mechanism."
            > >
            > > ++++
            > >
            > > I expanded his example by commenting that cold air also falls
            down
            > > from the mountains. And I would also add that in the night the
            air
            > > over the land cools faster. Plus the warming air rises to the
            > > mountains over the land and pushes the cold air down. I
            commented
            > > that the poorly understood part is the electrical aspect and
            cirrus
            > > IR behavior. Cold air falls down from the mountains, for
            instance,
            > > toward the oceans where coriolis RIGHT TURNs these winds, winds
            > that
            > > are relatively very cold and would move hard against the ocean
            > > surface, blowing the ocean currents, which causes an ocean
            current
            > on
            > > the surface that moves from EAST to WEST north of ambiant lows.
            To
            > > the south of those ambiant lows, convection provides for cirrus,
            > and
            > > furthermore, convection has a much more up and down direction to
            > the
            > > south of the low, such that a west to east direction of wind on
            the
            > > surface is not as big a cirrus reducer electrically.
            > >
            > > The latent heat released during the massive convection he
            mentioned
            > > is a factor is more important to the south of a low, but what
            > causes
            > > the monsoon has far more to do with in air IR characteristics
            > > garnered by electrical conditions as they pertain to the cirrus
            and
            > > the cloud cover then it has to do with SSTs, in my view. IOW, the
            > > monsoons require specific SST to land temperatures not because of
            > the
            > > heat contained in the oceans but because once a proper electrical
            > > balance is made with the induction and the specific conductivity
            of
            > > the oceans and even with the insulation in the ocean near the
            > > terresphere/hydrology source from hydrates, biological activity--
            > then
            > > it is monsoon season. Indeed, the requirement is a balance of
            the
            > > induction from the cold winds to the north of the ambiant lows
            and
            > > the warm oceans to the south of it, but with the added feature
            that
            > > what we are talking about is cirrus that are entrained from ocean
            > to
            > > land, and unlike a tropical storm which has a circular but
            > > electrically asymetrical movement induction by direction of
            > currents,
            > > a monsoonal flow is more about entrainment over the induction
            > feature
            > > from the convection.
            > >
            > > Those who are limited by thermodyanics as their modeling
            reference
            > > think of the monsoon like a sea breeze, but that clearly does not
            > > take into account the electrical features of the monsoon.
            > >
            > > A tropical storm differs from a monsoonal flow. A tropical storm
            > dies
            > > over land because the entrainment of cirrus is self contained
            over
            > > the surface low. In the case of a monsoonal flow, the electrical
            > > aspects are connected to the land by the conductivity of the
            water
            > in
            > > the air and this allows cirrus over land, in continuum from the
            > > oceans, to have a capacitive impact on the cirrus behavior.
            > >
            > > What is interesting about the supposedly regional organization of
            > the
            > > monsoon. One does not think about the GOM as a place where
            > monsoons
            > > can occur, yet we think of, say, India. Why? In my view,
            however,
            > > when we start talking about storms like Allison or Caracus 1999
            > what
            > > we really have is an expression of climate change were some of
            the
            > > required freatures of monsoonal flow occurred. Same with the
            > Algiers
            > > storm December last year.
            > >
            > > Where does the strongest cirrus entrainment eminate from? Where
            are
            > > the big mountains where cold air would flow down? In the
            Southwest
            > > there isn't a problem with mountains along the Mexican coast, for
            > > sure. But what about the GOM? See--that is a problem for cold
            > air.
            > > The GOM has a gyre, indeed, that typically flows in a clock wise
            > > circle that itself would not lend itself to the east to west
            > movement
            > > of currents. Hence, a monsoon does not flow from the GOM--
            BECAUSE
            > > WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS ELECTRICAL! Where are the big rivers
            > > that would provide biological material to the near shoreline
            oceans-
            > -
            > > that is another question to ask electrically about the SW and its
            > > drought, as well as the Rio and the Mississippi.
            > >
            > > In the case of the GOM, given the fact that the gyre already
            moves
            > > the way it does, Allison had this interesting feature where gyre
            > and
            > > circulation seemed to aid it and it was able to stall out over
            land
            > > almost like a monsoonal occurance. A hybred, so to speak. I
            know
            > I
            > > have mentioned here how half the GOM was covered by cirrus as the
            > low
            > > sat over Texas and drew up all the moisture underneath that
            cirrus.
            > >
            > >
            > > The key part here about a monsoonal flow is the cold air drawn
            down
            > > and right turned into the low. Once you get that wind moving EAST
            > to
            > > WEST on the oceans you are going to have electrical conditions
            that
            > > favor cirrus enhancement. The monsoon in the SW, also involves
            the
            > E.
            > > Pac and Gulf of California in the same manner. Of interest in
            > > watching this low and where it would go is to understand that
            > Florida
            > > is flat and you aren't going to have cold winds coming down from
            > the
            > > mountains. So the storm really has to have tropical features all
            > the
            > > way, and that opens up issues like shear. If the storm is
            > > extratropical, then the cold core loses the electrical
            conductivity
            > > that causes the electrical conditions that enhance cirrus, that
            > make
            > > for the storms ability to cause energies to be retained in the
            > storm
            > > rather then escaping into space.
            > >
            > > The monsoons are also probably impacted by space weather and the
            > > orbit of the earth, its tilt, and so forth, much like rains hit
            > > Seattle in the winter, as well as the biosphere and SSTs. The
            QBO
            > is
            > > a feature that IMHO in part is a measure of electrical
            conditions.
            > If
            > > dams delay water and rotting materials to the oceans, and it sure
            > > seems like the SEASONS have been delayed by a delay in activity
            in
            > > the biosphere, too. This will change the electrical dynamic as
            it
            > > interacts with the thermal, and is why, IMHO we had an Allison
            and
            > a
            > > Carucus, 1999.
            > >
            > > A pin hole eyed cane, for instance, IMHO is simply this idea that
            a
            > > TS has banding. That means there is more then just this low
            center
            > > pressure that is warm core and has convection and huge electron
            > > charges above it. It also has banding that has extra tropical
            > > features. While the warm core center will attract positive
            charges
            > > all around it, and that IMHO enhances cirrus just as over the eye
            > > they are repulsed, with a pin hole eye the winds on the surface
            > > inducting a current become so strong that the electrical charge
            > over
            > > the eye is so great that even banding is lost as a feature. The
            > eye
            > > is allowed, electrically, to become smaller still.
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