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Re: Warming Southern Oceans; Fleming's right hand rule/Fred

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  • pawnfart
    In addition to what Daddy notes, here is a link you might like: http://www.copernicus.org/EGS/acp/acpd/1/221/ ... VERY ... clouds ... 100 ... stands ...
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 2, 2002
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      In addition to what Daddy notes, here is a link you might like:

      http://www.copernicus.org/EGS/acp/acpd/1/221/

      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > pawnfart said "INBETWEEN are the cirrus clouds, and they have a
      VERY
      > powerful GHG impact. Some of the papers I have read on cirrus
      clouds
      > and the forcing involved are talking about differences over over
      100
      > watts per meter squared between the area with the cirrus and high
      > clouds and the low clouds"
      >
      > 1. If the cirrus clouds are decreasing over Antarctica then it
      stands
      > to reason that more solar energy is reaching the surface and
      > therefore surface temperatures should be increasing over the
      interior
      > not decreasing since the cooling reported is occuring mostly during
      > the summer months when the sun is out 24/7.
      >
      > More clouds = less solar energy reaching the surface during summer.
      > Less clouds = more solar energy reaching the surface during summer.
      >
      > you said "As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
      > ice, and can put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also
      means
      > that induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case
      is
      > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
      > Antarctica."
      >
      > I say the opposite is true!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > Fred:
      > >
      > > Again, what we are talking about is surface lows contrasting HP
      > > areas. Lows tend to have your fronts, your lightning, your
      places
      > > where there is negitive ionosphere to ground charges. In high
      > > presure areas the ionosphere delivers about 250 volts per meter
      > > squared from the ionosphere to ground. INBETWEEN are the cirrus
      > > clouds, and they have a VERY powerful GHG impact. Some of the
      > papers
      > > I have read on cirrus clouds and the forcing involved are talking
      > > about differences over over 100 watts per meter squared between
      the
      > > area with the cirrus and high clouds and the low clouds. So if a
      > > forcing is consistant over a period of time it matters to SSTs
      > (with
      > > emphisis on SURFACE) and to temperatures like the interior.
      > >
      > > Now, in response to your article, look at this figure from
      Keeling
      > > Whorf. Note that the period 1,200 years ago was a low period in
      > > tidal activity, meaning less hydrate depressurization. That
      means
      > > warmer oceans:
      > >
      > > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/8/3814/F2
      > >
      > > Warmer ocean then and now mean that there is more induction
      against
      > > cirrus being sustained electrially in this middle area between
      > storm
      > > and fair weather, and it amounts to a substantial forcing on the
      > > surface.
      > >
      > > Note that after the warming from the northern hemisphere,
      > > particularly where there isn't EASTWARD currents as much as w/
      the
      > > Southern Ocean, the oceans at depths have warmed:
      > >
      > > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
      > >
      > > This causes greater induction and while it may mean cooler SSTs
      or
      > > cold interior, overall it has proven to melt these big glaciers.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > "We thought the ocean between 700 and 1,100 meters depth was
      pretty
      > > well insulated from what's happening at the surface and that it
      > > should respond more slowly than the shallow depths," said Gille,
      of
      > > the Physical Oceanography Research Division at Scripps. "But
      these
      > > results suggest that the mid-depth Southern Ocean is responding
      and
      > > warming more rapidly than global ocean temperatures."
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > You said
      > > > "Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way
      > > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
      > clouds
      > > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR."
      > > >
      > > > I understand that the greatest cooling was during the December
      > > > through February Antarctic summer so wouldn't reduced cirrus
      mean
      > > > increasing temperatures?
      > > >
      > > > http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/cold-
      > > science/2002-
      > > > 01-13-antarctic-cooling.htm
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > > Fred,
      > > > >
      > > > > Per Fleming's right hand rule:
      > > > >
      > > > > First finger - movement of the conducter.
      > > > > SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S)
      > > > > ThuMb - direction of current (positive to negative)
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Let's break it down. Hold out your right hand so that your
      > thumb
      > > > is
      > > > > touching the screen, your first finger is pointing to your
      > right
      > > > > parallel to the top of the screen, and your second finger
      > toward
      > > > the
      > > > > middle of the CRT. Pretend the CRT is a map of the Southern
      > Ocean
      > > > > with the top of the screen the top of a circle with the
      center
      > of
      > > > the
      > > > > CRT the magnetic S. Pole. Your first finger moves with the
      > > > EASTWARD
      > > > > current of the Southern Ocean. Your second finger points to
      > the
      > > > > magnetic north per Fleming's rule. In this case, magnetic
      > north
      > > is
      > > > > the magnetic south pole. That is because a hand held magnet
      > > which
      > > > > has a magnetic north bar magnet will point its north pole
      > toward
      > > > the
      > > > > earth's magnetic north pole, meaning that the earth's
      magnetic
      > > > north
      > > > > pole is like the magnetic south pole of a bar magnet, as
      > opposits
      > > > > attract. Your thumb, then, is direction of current, positive
      to
      > > > > negitive, a vector INTO the ocean. Take you time to think it
      > > > through.
      > > > >
      > > > > Now, that means that the current inducted by the movement of
      > the
      > > > > Southern Oceans winds and currents, generally speaking is
      > moving
      > > > > EASTWARD, as defined per Fleming's right hand rule as a
      > movement
      > > of
      > > > > electrons INTO the OCEAN. (That eddy by where B-21 and 22
      broke
      > > off
      > > > > and there is WESTWARD movements is an exception and explains
      > the
      > > > warm
      > > > > anomalies there). Those electrons that move INTO the oceans
      > take
      > > > way
      > > > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
      > > clouds
      > > > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR. Likewise, currents moving
      > > > WESTWARD
      > > > > by the glacial breakup enhance cirrus, enhance warmer
      > conditions
      > > > and
      > > > > it has been show that that area has been almost 5 degrees C
      > > warmer!
      > > > > Since warmer oceans mean that the oceans have greater
      specific
      > > > > conductivity, that means that what electrical current is
      > inducted
      > > > is
      > > > > EVEN stronger, and explains the regional melting of break of
      of
      > > > > glaciers and the colder interior that has made the news along
      > > with
      > > > > the reported warmer oceans there, and when I say warmer
      oceans,
      > I
      > > > > include the idea that warmer isn't just SSTs or sea SURFACE
      > > > > temperatures, but ocean temperatures running to depths.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > > > You said: "It also means that induction that generally
      occurs
      > > is
      > > > > > stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--
      which
      > > > > > explains the cold interior of Antarctica."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of
      > > > > Antarctica?
      > > > > > Fred
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...>
      wrote:
      > > > > > > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN
      OCEAN
      > > > OVER
      > > > > > THE
      > > > > > > LAST 50 YEARS
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage,
      > > possible
      > > > > > > implications:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > >
      http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Comment:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
      > ice,
      > > > and
      > > > > > can
      > > > > > > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means
      > > that
      > > > > > > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this
      > case
      > > > is
      > > > > > > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold
      interior
      > of
      > > > > > > Antarctica.
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