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Re: Warming Southern Oceans; Fleming's right hand rule/Fred

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  • pawnfart
    Fred: Again, what we are talking about is surface lows contrasting HP areas. Lows tend to have your fronts, your lightning, your places where there is
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 1, 2002
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      Fred:

      Again, what we are talking about is surface lows contrasting HP
      areas. Lows tend to have your fronts, your lightning, your places
      where there is negitive ionosphere to ground charges. In high
      presure areas the ionosphere delivers about 250 volts per meter
      squared from the ionosphere to ground. INBETWEEN are the cirrus
      clouds, and they have a VERY powerful GHG impact. Some of the papers
      I have read on cirrus clouds and the forcing involved are talking
      about differences over over 100 watts per meter squared between the
      area with the cirrus and high clouds and the low clouds. So if a
      forcing is consistant over a period of time it matters to SSTs (with
      emphisis on SURFACE) and to temperatures like the interior.

      Now, in response to your article, look at this figure from Keeling
      Whorf. Note that the period 1,200 years ago was a low period in
      tidal activity, meaning less hydrate depressurization. That means
      warmer oceans:

      http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/8/3814/F2

      Warmer ocean then and now mean that there is more induction against
      cirrus being sustained electrially in this middle area between storm
      and fair weather, and it amounts to a substantial forcing on the
      surface.

      Note that after the warming from the northern hemisphere,
      particularly where there isn't EASTWARD currents as much as w/ the
      Southern Ocean, the oceans at depths have warmed:

      http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html

      This causes greater induction and while it may mean cooler SSTs or
      cold interior, overall it has proven to melt these big glaciers.



      "We thought the ocean between 700 and 1,100 meters depth was pretty
      well insulated from what's happening at the surface and that it
      should respond more slowly than the shallow depths," said Gille, of
      the Physical Oceanography Research Division at Scripps. "But these
      results suggest that the mid-depth Southern Ocean is responding and
      warming more rapidly than global ocean temperatures."


      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > You said
      > "Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way
      > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus clouds
      > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR."
      >
      > I understand that the greatest cooling was during the December
      > through February Antarctic summer so wouldn't reduced cirrus mean
      > increasing temperatures?
      >
      > http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/cold-
      science/2002-
      > 01-13-antarctic-cooling.htm
      >
      >
      > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > Fred,
      > >
      > > Per Fleming's right hand rule:
      > >
      > > First finger - movement of the conducter.
      > > SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S)
      > > ThuMb - direction of current (positive to negative)
      > >
      > >
      > > Let's break it down. Hold out your right hand so that your thumb
      > is
      > > touching the screen, your first finger is pointing to your right
      > > parallel to the top of the screen, and your second finger toward
      > the
      > > middle of the CRT. Pretend the CRT is a map of the Southern Ocean
      > > with the top of the screen the top of a circle with the center of
      > the
      > > CRT the magnetic S. Pole. Your first finger moves with the
      > EASTWARD
      > > current of the Southern Ocean. Your second finger points to the
      > > magnetic north per Fleming's rule. In this case, magnetic north
      is
      > > the magnetic south pole. That is because a hand held magnet
      which
      > > has a magnetic north bar magnet will point its north pole toward
      > the
      > > earth's magnetic north pole, meaning that the earth's magnetic
      > north
      > > pole is like the magnetic south pole of a bar magnet, as opposits
      > > attract. Your thumb, then, is direction of current, positive to
      > > negitive, a vector INTO the ocean. Take you time to think it
      > through.
      > >
      > > Now, that means that the current inducted by the movement of the
      > > Southern Oceans winds and currents, generally speaking is moving
      > > EASTWARD, as defined per Fleming's right hand rule as a movement
      of
      > > electrons INTO the OCEAN. (That eddy by where B-21 and 22 broke
      off
      > > and there is WESTWARD movements is an exception and explains the
      > warm
      > > anomalies there). Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take
      > way
      > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
      clouds
      > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR. Likewise, currents moving
      > WESTWARD
      > > by the glacial breakup enhance cirrus, enhance warmer conditions
      > and
      > > it has been show that that area has been almost 5 degrees C
      warmer!
      > > Since warmer oceans mean that the oceans have greater specific
      > > conductivity, that means that what electrical current is inducted
      > is
      > > EVEN stronger, and explains the regional melting of break of of
      > > glaciers and the colder interior that has made the news along
      with
      > > the reported warmer oceans there, and when I say warmer oceans, I
      > > include the idea that warmer isn't just SSTs or sea SURFACE
      > > temperatures, but ocean temperatures running to depths.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > You said: "It also means that induction that generally occurs
      is
      > > > stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--which
      > > > explains the cold interior of Antarctica."
      > > >
      > > > You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of
      > > Antarctica?
      > > > Fred
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN OCEAN
      > OVER
      > > > THE
      > > > > LAST 50 YEARS
      > > > >
      > > > > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage,
      possible
      > > > > implications:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
      > > > >
      > > > > Comment:
      > > > >
      > > > > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial ice,
      > and
      > > > can
      > > > > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means
      that
      > > > > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case
      > is
      > > > > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
      > > > > Antarctica.
    • fredwx
      pawnfart said INBETWEEN are the cirrus clouds, and they have a VERY powerful GHG impact. Some of the papers I have read on cirrus clouds and the forcing
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 2, 2002
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        pawnfart said "INBETWEEN are the cirrus clouds, and they have a VERY
        powerful GHG impact. Some of the papers I have read on cirrus clouds
        and the forcing involved are talking about differences over over 100
        watts per meter squared between the area with the cirrus and high
        clouds and the low clouds"

        1. If the cirrus clouds are decreasing over Antarctica then it stands
        to reason that more solar energy is reaching the surface and
        therefore surface temperatures should be increasing over the interior
        not decreasing since the cooling reported is occuring mostly during
        the summer months when the sun is out 24/7.

        More clouds = less solar energy reaching the surface during summer.
        Less clouds = more solar energy reaching the surface during summer.

        you said "As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
        ice, and can put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means
        that induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case is
        against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
        Antarctica."

        I say the opposite is true!





        --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > Fred:
        >
        > Again, what we are talking about is surface lows contrasting HP
        > areas. Lows tend to have your fronts, your lightning, your places
        > where there is negitive ionosphere to ground charges. In high
        > presure areas the ionosphere delivers about 250 volts per meter
        > squared from the ionosphere to ground. INBETWEEN are the cirrus
        > clouds, and they have a VERY powerful GHG impact. Some of the
        papers
        > I have read on cirrus clouds and the forcing involved are talking
        > about differences over over 100 watts per meter squared between the
        > area with the cirrus and high clouds and the low clouds. So if a
        > forcing is consistant over a period of time it matters to SSTs
        (with
        > emphisis on SURFACE) and to temperatures like the interior.
        >
        > Now, in response to your article, look at this figure from Keeling
        > Whorf. Note that the period 1,200 years ago was a low period in
        > tidal activity, meaning less hydrate depressurization. That means
        > warmer oceans:
        >
        > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/8/3814/F2
        >
        > Warmer ocean then and now mean that there is more induction against
        > cirrus being sustained electrially in this middle area between
        storm
        > and fair weather, and it amounts to a substantial forcing on the
        > surface.
        >
        > Note that after the warming from the northern hemisphere,
        > particularly where there isn't EASTWARD currents as much as w/ the
        > Southern Ocean, the oceans at depths have warmed:
        >
        > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
        >
        > This causes greater induction and while it may mean cooler SSTs or
        > cold interior, overall it has proven to melt these big glaciers.
        >
        >
        >
        > "We thought the ocean between 700 and 1,100 meters depth was pretty
        > well insulated from what's happening at the surface and that it
        > should respond more slowly than the shallow depths," said Gille, of
        > the Physical Oceanography Research Division at Scripps. "But these
        > results suggest that the mid-depth Southern Ocean is responding and
        > warming more rapidly than global ocean temperatures."
        >
        >
        > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > You said
        > > "Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way
        > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
        clouds
        > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR."
        > >
        > > I understand that the greatest cooling was during the December
        > > through February Antarctic summer so wouldn't reduced cirrus mean
        > > increasing temperatures?
        > >
        > > http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/cold-
        > science/2002-
        > > 01-13-antarctic-cooling.htm
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > Fred,
        > > >
        > > > Per Fleming's right hand rule:
        > > >
        > > > First finger - movement of the conducter.
        > > > SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S)
        > > > ThuMb - direction of current (positive to negative)
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Let's break it down. Hold out your right hand so that your
        thumb
        > > is
        > > > touching the screen, your first finger is pointing to your
        right
        > > > parallel to the top of the screen, and your second finger
        toward
        > > the
        > > > middle of the CRT. Pretend the CRT is a map of the Southern
        Ocean
        > > > with the top of the screen the top of a circle with the center
        of
        > > the
        > > > CRT the magnetic S. Pole. Your first finger moves with the
        > > EASTWARD
        > > > current of the Southern Ocean. Your second finger points to
        the
        > > > magnetic north per Fleming's rule. In this case, magnetic
        north
        > is
        > > > the magnetic south pole. That is because a hand held magnet
        > which
        > > > has a magnetic north bar magnet will point its north pole
        toward
        > > the
        > > > earth's magnetic north pole, meaning that the earth's magnetic
        > > north
        > > > pole is like the magnetic south pole of a bar magnet, as
        opposits
        > > > attract. Your thumb, then, is direction of current, positive to
        > > > negitive, a vector INTO the ocean. Take you time to think it
        > > through.
        > > >
        > > > Now, that means that the current inducted by the movement of
        the
        > > > Southern Oceans winds and currents, generally speaking is
        moving
        > > > EASTWARD, as defined per Fleming's right hand rule as a
        movement
        > of
        > > > electrons INTO the OCEAN. (That eddy by where B-21 and 22 broke
        > off
        > > > and there is WESTWARD movements is an exception and explains
        the
        > > warm
        > > > anomalies there). Those electrons that move INTO the oceans
        take
        > > way
        > > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
        > clouds
        > > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR. Likewise, currents moving
        > > WESTWARD
        > > > by the glacial breakup enhance cirrus, enhance warmer
        conditions
        > > and
        > > > it has been show that that area has been almost 5 degrees C
        > warmer!
        > > > Since warmer oceans mean that the oceans have greater specific
        > > > conductivity, that means that what electrical current is
        inducted
        > > is
        > > > EVEN stronger, and explains the regional melting of break of of
        > > > glaciers and the colder interior that has made the news along
        > with
        > > > the reported warmer oceans there, and when I say warmer oceans,
        I
        > > > include the idea that warmer isn't just SSTs or sea SURFACE
        > > > temperatures, but ocean temperatures running to depths.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > > You said: "It also means that induction that generally occurs
        > is
        > > > > stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--which
        > > > > explains the cold interior of Antarctica."
        > > > >
        > > > > You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of
        > > > Antarctica?
        > > > > Fred
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN OCEAN
        > > OVER
        > > > > THE
        > > > > > LAST 50 YEARS
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage,
        > possible
        > > > > > implications:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Comment:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
        ice,
        > > and
        > > > > can
        > > > > > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means
        > that
        > > > > > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this
        case
        > > is
        > > > > > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior
        of
        > > > > > Antarctica.
      • pawnfart
        In addition to what Daddy notes, here is a link you might like: http://www.copernicus.org/EGS/acp/acpd/1/221/ ... VERY ... clouds ... 100 ... stands ...
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 2, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          In addition to what Daddy notes, here is a link you might like:

          http://www.copernicus.org/EGS/acp/acpd/1/221/

          --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > pawnfart said "INBETWEEN are the cirrus clouds, and they have a
          VERY
          > powerful GHG impact. Some of the papers I have read on cirrus
          clouds
          > and the forcing involved are talking about differences over over
          100
          > watts per meter squared between the area with the cirrus and high
          > clouds and the low clouds"
          >
          > 1. If the cirrus clouds are decreasing over Antarctica then it
          stands
          > to reason that more solar energy is reaching the surface and
          > therefore surface temperatures should be increasing over the
          interior
          > not decreasing since the cooling reported is occuring mostly during
          > the summer months when the sun is out 24/7.
          >
          > More clouds = less solar energy reaching the surface during summer.
          > Less clouds = more solar energy reaching the surface during summer.
          >
          > you said "As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
          > ice, and can put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also
          means
          > that induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case
          is
          > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
          > Antarctica."
          >
          > I say the opposite is true!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > Fred:
          > >
          > > Again, what we are talking about is surface lows contrasting HP
          > > areas. Lows tend to have your fronts, your lightning, your
          places
          > > where there is negitive ionosphere to ground charges. In high
          > > presure areas the ionosphere delivers about 250 volts per meter
          > > squared from the ionosphere to ground. INBETWEEN are the cirrus
          > > clouds, and they have a VERY powerful GHG impact. Some of the
          > papers
          > > I have read on cirrus clouds and the forcing involved are talking
          > > about differences over over 100 watts per meter squared between
          the
          > > area with the cirrus and high clouds and the low clouds. So if a
          > > forcing is consistant over a period of time it matters to SSTs
          > (with
          > > emphisis on SURFACE) and to temperatures like the interior.
          > >
          > > Now, in response to your article, look at this figure from
          Keeling
          > > Whorf. Note that the period 1,200 years ago was a low period in
          > > tidal activity, meaning less hydrate depressurization. That
          means
          > > warmer oceans:
          > >
          > > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/8/3814/F2
          > >
          > > Warmer ocean then and now mean that there is more induction
          against
          > > cirrus being sustained electrially in this middle area between
          > storm
          > > and fair weather, and it amounts to a substantial forcing on the
          > > surface.
          > >
          > > Note that after the warming from the northern hemisphere,
          > > particularly where there isn't EASTWARD currents as much as w/
          the
          > > Southern Ocean, the oceans at depths have warmed:
          > >
          > > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
          > >
          > > This causes greater induction and while it may mean cooler SSTs
          or
          > > cold interior, overall it has proven to melt these big glaciers.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > "We thought the ocean between 700 and 1,100 meters depth was
          pretty
          > > well insulated from what's happening at the surface and that it
          > > should respond more slowly than the shallow depths," said Gille,
          of
          > > the Physical Oceanography Research Division at Scripps. "But
          these
          > > results suggest that the mid-depth Southern Ocean is responding
          and
          > > warming more rapidly than global ocean temperatures."
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > > You said
          > > > "Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way
          > > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
          > clouds
          > > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR."
          > > >
          > > > I understand that the greatest cooling was during the December
          > > > through February Antarctic summer so wouldn't reduced cirrus
          mean
          > > > increasing temperatures?
          > > >
          > > > http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/cold-
          > > science/2002-
          > > > 01-13-antarctic-cooling.htm
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > > > Fred,
          > > > >
          > > > > Per Fleming's right hand rule:
          > > > >
          > > > > First finger - movement of the conducter.
          > > > > SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S)
          > > > > ThuMb - direction of current (positive to negative)
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Let's break it down. Hold out your right hand so that your
          > thumb
          > > > is
          > > > > touching the screen, your first finger is pointing to your
          > right
          > > > > parallel to the top of the screen, and your second finger
          > toward
          > > > the
          > > > > middle of the CRT. Pretend the CRT is a map of the Southern
          > Ocean
          > > > > with the top of the screen the top of a circle with the
          center
          > of
          > > > the
          > > > > CRT the magnetic S. Pole. Your first finger moves with the
          > > > EASTWARD
          > > > > current of the Southern Ocean. Your second finger points to
          > the
          > > > > magnetic north per Fleming's rule. In this case, magnetic
          > north
          > > is
          > > > > the magnetic south pole. That is because a hand held magnet
          > > which
          > > > > has a magnetic north bar magnet will point its north pole
          > toward
          > > > the
          > > > > earth's magnetic north pole, meaning that the earth's
          magnetic
          > > > north
          > > > > pole is like the magnetic south pole of a bar magnet, as
          > opposits
          > > > > attract. Your thumb, then, is direction of current, positive
          to
          > > > > negitive, a vector INTO the ocean. Take you time to think it
          > > > through.
          > > > >
          > > > > Now, that means that the current inducted by the movement of
          > the
          > > > > Southern Oceans winds and currents, generally speaking is
          > moving
          > > > > EASTWARD, as defined per Fleming's right hand rule as a
          > movement
          > > of
          > > > > electrons INTO the OCEAN. (That eddy by where B-21 and 22
          broke
          > > off
          > > > > and there is WESTWARD movements is an exception and explains
          > the
          > > > warm
          > > > > anomalies there). Those electrons that move INTO the oceans
          > take
          > > > way
          > > > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
          > > clouds
          > > > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR. Likewise, currents moving
          > > > WESTWARD
          > > > > by the glacial breakup enhance cirrus, enhance warmer
          > conditions
          > > > and
          > > > > it has been show that that area has been almost 5 degrees C
          > > warmer!
          > > > > Since warmer oceans mean that the oceans have greater
          specific
          > > > > conductivity, that means that what electrical current is
          > inducted
          > > > is
          > > > > EVEN stronger, and explains the regional melting of break of
          of
          > > > > glaciers and the colder interior that has made the news along
          > > with
          > > > > the reported warmer oceans there, and when I say warmer
          oceans,
          > I
          > > > > include the idea that warmer isn't just SSTs or sea SURFACE
          > > > > temperatures, but ocean temperatures running to depths.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > > > > You said: "It also means that induction that generally
          occurs
          > > is
          > > > > > stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--
          which
          > > > > > explains the cold interior of Antarctica."
          > > > > >
          > > > > > You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of
          > > > > Antarctica?
          > > > > > Fred
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...>
          wrote:
          > > > > > > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN
          OCEAN
          > > > OVER
          > > > > > THE
          > > > > > > LAST 50 YEARS
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage,
          > > possible
          > > > > > > implications:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > >
          http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Comment:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
          > ice,
          > > > and
          > > > > > can
          > > > > > > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means
          > > that
          > > > > > > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this
          > case
          > > > is
          > > > > > > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold
          interior
          > of
          > > > > > > Antarctica.
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