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Warming Southern Oceans

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  • pawnfart
    SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN OCEAN OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage, possible implications:
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 31, 2002
      SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN OCEAN OVER THE
      LAST 50 YEARS

      Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage, possible
      implications:

      http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html

      Comment:

      As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial ice, and can
      put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means that
      induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case is
      against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
      Antarctica.
    • fredwx
      You said: It also means that induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 1, 2002
        You said: "It also means that induction that generally occurs is
        stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--which
        explains the cold interior of Antarctica."

        You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of Antarctica?
        Fred




        -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN OCEAN OVER
        THE
        > LAST 50 YEARS
        >
        > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage, possible
        > implications:
        >
        > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
        >
        > Comment:
        >
        > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial ice, and
        can
        > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means that
        > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case is
        > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
        > Antarctica.
      • pawnfart
        Fred, Per Fleming s right hand rule: First finger - movement of the conducter. SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S) ThuMb - direction of current
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 1, 2002
          Fred,

          Per Fleming's right hand rule:

          First finger - movement of the conducter.
          SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S)
          ThuMb - direction of current (positive to negative)


          Let's break it down. Hold out your right hand so that your thumb is
          touching the screen, your first finger is pointing to your right
          parallel to the top of the screen, and your second finger toward the
          middle of the CRT. Pretend the CRT is a map of the Southern Ocean
          with the top of the screen the top of a circle with the center of the
          CRT the magnetic S. Pole. Your first finger moves with the EASTWARD
          current of the Southern Ocean. Your second finger points to the
          magnetic north per Fleming's rule. In this case, magnetic north is
          the magnetic south pole. That is because a hand held magnet which
          has a magnetic north bar magnet will point its north pole toward the
          earth's magnetic north pole, meaning that the earth's magnetic north
          pole is like the magnetic south pole of a bar magnet, as opposits
          attract. Your thumb, then, is direction of current, positive to
          negitive, a vector INTO the ocean. Take you time to think it through.

          Now, that means that the current inducted by the movement of the
          Southern Oceans winds and currents, generally speaking is moving
          EASTWARD, as defined per Fleming's right hand rule as a movement of
          electrons INTO the OCEAN. (That eddy by where B-21 and 22 broke off
          and there is WESTWARD movements is an exception and explains the warm
          anomalies there). Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way
          from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus clouds
          and causes a cooling IN THE AIR. Likewise, currents moving WESTWARD
          by the glacial breakup enhance cirrus, enhance warmer conditions and
          it has been show that that area has been almost 5 degrees C warmer!
          Since warmer oceans mean that the oceans have greater specific
          conductivity, that means that what electrical current is inducted is
          EVEN stronger, and explains the regional melting of break of of
          glaciers and the colder interior that has made the news along with
          the reported warmer oceans there, and when I say warmer oceans, I
          include the idea that warmer isn't just SSTs or sea SURFACE
          temperatures, but ocean temperatures running to depths.


          --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > You said: "It also means that induction that generally occurs is
          > stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--which
          > explains the cold interior of Antarctica."
          >
          > You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of
          Antarctica?
          > Fred


          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN OCEAN OVER
          > THE
          > > LAST 50 YEARS
          > >
          > > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage, possible
          > > implications:
          > >
          > > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
          > >
          > > Comment:
          > >
          > > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial ice, and
          > can
          > > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means that
          > > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case is
          > > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
          > > Antarctica.
        • fredwx
          You said Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way from the ionosphere s ability to electrically enhance cirrus clouds and causes a cooling IN THE
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 1, 2002
            You said
            "Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way
            from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus clouds
            and causes a cooling IN THE AIR."

            I understand that the greatest cooling was during the December
            through February Antarctic summer so wouldn't reduced cirrus mean
            increasing temperatures?

            http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/cold-science/2002-
            01-13-antarctic-cooling.htm


            --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Fred,
            >
            > Per Fleming's right hand rule:
            >
            > First finger - movement of the conducter.
            > SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S)
            > ThuMb - direction of current (positive to negative)
            >
            >
            > Let's break it down. Hold out your right hand so that your thumb
            is
            > touching the screen, your first finger is pointing to your right
            > parallel to the top of the screen, and your second finger toward
            the
            > middle of the CRT. Pretend the CRT is a map of the Southern Ocean
            > with the top of the screen the top of a circle with the center of
            the
            > CRT the magnetic S. Pole. Your first finger moves with the
            EASTWARD
            > current of the Southern Ocean. Your second finger points to the
            > magnetic north per Fleming's rule. In this case, magnetic north is
            > the magnetic south pole. That is because a hand held magnet which
            > has a magnetic north bar magnet will point its north pole toward
            the
            > earth's magnetic north pole, meaning that the earth's magnetic
            north
            > pole is like the magnetic south pole of a bar magnet, as opposits
            > attract. Your thumb, then, is direction of current, positive to
            > negitive, a vector INTO the ocean. Take you time to think it
            through.
            >
            > Now, that means that the current inducted by the movement of the
            > Southern Oceans winds and currents, generally speaking is moving
            > EASTWARD, as defined per Fleming's right hand rule as a movement of
            > electrons INTO the OCEAN. (That eddy by where B-21 and 22 broke off
            > and there is WESTWARD movements is an exception and explains the
            warm
            > anomalies there). Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take
            way
            > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus clouds
            > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR. Likewise, currents moving
            WESTWARD
            > by the glacial breakup enhance cirrus, enhance warmer conditions
            and
            > it has been show that that area has been almost 5 degrees C warmer!
            > Since warmer oceans mean that the oceans have greater specific
            > conductivity, that means that what electrical current is inducted
            is
            > EVEN stronger, and explains the regional melting of break of of
            > glaciers and the colder interior that has made the news along with
            > the reported warmer oceans there, and when I say warmer oceans, I
            > include the idea that warmer isn't just SSTs or sea SURFACE
            > temperatures, but ocean temperatures running to depths.
            >
            >
            > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > You said: "It also means that induction that generally occurs is
            > > stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--which
            > > explains the cold interior of Antarctica."
            > >
            > > You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of
            > Antarctica?
            > > Fred
            >
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN OCEAN
            OVER
            > > THE
            > > > LAST 50 YEARS
            > > >
            > > > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage, possible
            > > > implications:
            > > >
            > > >
            http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
            > > >
            > > > Comment:
            > > >
            > > > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial ice,
            and
            > > can
            > > > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means that
            > > > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case
            is
            > > > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
            > > > Antarctica.
          • pawnfart
            Fred: Again, what we are talking about is surface lows contrasting HP areas. Lows tend to have your fronts, your lightning, your places where there is
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 1, 2002
              Fred:

              Again, what we are talking about is surface lows contrasting HP
              areas. Lows tend to have your fronts, your lightning, your places
              where there is negitive ionosphere to ground charges. In high
              presure areas the ionosphere delivers about 250 volts per meter
              squared from the ionosphere to ground. INBETWEEN are the cirrus
              clouds, and they have a VERY powerful GHG impact. Some of the papers
              I have read on cirrus clouds and the forcing involved are talking
              about differences over over 100 watts per meter squared between the
              area with the cirrus and high clouds and the low clouds. So if a
              forcing is consistant over a period of time it matters to SSTs (with
              emphisis on SURFACE) and to temperatures like the interior.

              Now, in response to your article, look at this figure from Keeling
              Whorf. Note that the period 1,200 years ago was a low period in
              tidal activity, meaning less hydrate depressurization. That means
              warmer oceans:

              http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/8/3814/F2

              Warmer ocean then and now mean that there is more induction against
              cirrus being sustained electrially in this middle area between storm
              and fair weather, and it amounts to a substantial forcing on the
              surface.

              Note that after the warming from the northern hemisphere,
              particularly where there isn't EASTWARD currents as much as w/ the
              Southern Ocean, the oceans at depths have warmed:

              http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html

              This causes greater induction and while it may mean cooler SSTs or
              cold interior, overall it has proven to melt these big glaciers.



              "We thought the ocean between 700 and 1,100 meters depth was pretty
              well insulated from what's happening at the surface and that it
              should respond more slowly than the shallow depths," said Gille, of
              the Physical Oceanography Research Division at Scripps. "But these
              results suggest that the mid-depth Southern Ocean is responding and
              warming more rapidly than global ocean temperatures."


              --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > You said
              > "Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way
              > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus clouds
              > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR."
              >
              > I understand that the greatest cooling was during the December
              > through February Antarctic summer so wouldn't reduced cirrus mean
              > increasing temperatures?
              >
              > http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/cold-
              science/2002-
              > 01-13-antarctic-cooling.htm
              >
              >
              > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > > Fred,
              > >
              > > Per Fleming's right hand rule:
              > >
              > > First finger - movement of the conducter.
              > > SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S)
              > > ThuMb - direction of current (positive to negative)
              > >
              > >
              > > Let's break it down. Hold out your right hand so that your thumb
              > is
              > > touching the screen, your first finger is pointing to your right
              > > parallel to the top of the screen, and your second finger toward
              > the
              > > middle of the CRT. Pretend the CRT is a map of the Southern Ocean
              > > with the top of the screen the top of a circle with the center of
              > the
              > > CRT the magnetic S. Pole. Your first finger moves with the
              > EASTWARD
              > > current of the Southern Ocean. Your second finger points to the
              > > magnetic north per Fleming's rule. In this case, magnetic north
              is
              > > the magnetic south pole. That is because a hand held magnet
              which
              > > has a magnetic north bar magnet will point its north pole toward
              > the
              > > earth's magnetic north pole, meaning that the earth's magnetic
              > north
              > > pole is like the magnetic south pole of a bar magnet, as opposits
              > > attract. Your thumb, then, is direction of current, positive to
              > > negitive, a vector INTO the ocean. Take you time to think it
              > through.
              > >
              > > Now, that means that the current inducted by the movement of the
              > > Southern Oceans winds and currents, generally speaking is moving
              > > EASTWARD, as defined per Fleming's right hand rule as a movement
              of
              > > electrons INTO the OCEAN. (That eddy by where B-21 and 22 broke
              off
              > > and there is WESTWARD movements is an exception and explains the
              > warm
              > > anomalies there). Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take
              > way
              > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
              clouds
              > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR. Likewise, currents moving
              > WESTWARD
              > > by the glacial breakup enhance cirrus, enhance warmer conditions
              > and
              > > it has been show that that area has been almost 5 degrees C
              warmer!
              > > Since warmer oceans mean that the oceans have greater specific
              > > conductivity, that means that what electrical current is inducted
              > is
              > > EVEN stronger, and explains the regional melting of break of of
              > > glaciers and the colder interior that has made the news along
              with
              > > the reported warmer oceans there, and when I say warmer oceans, I
              > > include the idea that warmer isn't just SSTs or sea SURFACE
              > > temperatures, but ocean temperatures running to depths.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > > > You said: "It also means that induction that generally occurs
              is
              > > > stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--which
              > > > explains the cold interior of Antarctica."
              > > >
              > > > You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of
              > > Antarctica?
              > > > Fred
              > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > > > > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN OCEAN
              > OVER
              > > > THE
              > > > > LAST 50 YEARS
              > > > >
              > > > > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage,
              possible
              > > > > implications:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
              > > > >
              > > > > Comment:
              > > > >
              > > > > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial ice,
              > and
              > > > can
              > > > > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means
              that
              > > > > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case
              > is
              > > > > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
              > > > > Antarctica.
            • fredwx
              pawnfart said INBETWEEN are the cirrus clouds, and they have a VERY powerful GHG impact. Some of the papers I have read on cirrus clouds and the forcing
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 2, 2002
                pawnfart said "INBETWEEN are the cirrus clouds, and they have a VERY
                powerful GHG impact. Some of the papers I have read on cirrus clouds
                and the forcing involved are talking about differences over over 100
                watts per meter squared between the area with the cirrus and high
                clouds and the low clouds"

                1. If the cirrus clouds are decreasing over Antarctica then it stands
                to reason that more solar energy is reaching the surface and
                therefore surface temperatures should be increasing over the interior
                not decreasing since the cooling reported is occuring mostly during
                the summer months when the sun is out 24/7.

                More clouds = less solar energy reaching the surface during summer.
                Less clouds = more solar energy reaching the surface during summer.

                you said "As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
                ice, and can put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means
                that induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case is
                against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
                Antarctica."

                I say the opposite is true!





                --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > Fred:
                >
                > Again, what we are talking about is surface lows contrasting HP
                > areas. Lows tend to have your fronts, your lightning, your places
                > where there is negitive ionosphere to ground charges. In high
                > presure areas the ionosphere delivers about 250 volts per meter
                > squared from the ionosphere to ground. INBETWEEN are the cirrus
                > clouds, and they have a VERY powerful GHG impact. Some of the
                papers
                > I have read on cirrus clouds and the forcing involved are talking
                > about differences over over 100 watts per meter squared between the
                > area with the cirrus and high clouds and the low clouds. So if a
                > forcing is consistant over a period of time it matters to SSTs
                (with
                > emphisis on SURFACE) and to temperatures like the interior.
                >
                > Now, in response to your article, look at this figure from Keeling
                > Whorf. Note that the period 1,200 years ago was a low period in
                > tidal activity, meaning less hydrate depressurization. That means
                > warmer oceans:
                >
                > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/8/3814/F2
                >
                > Warmer ocean then and now mean that there is more induction against
                > cirrus being sustained electrially in this middle area between
                storm
                > and fair weather, and it amounts to a substantial forcing on the
                > surface.
                >
                > Note that after the warming from the northern hemisphere,
                > particularly where there isn't EASTWARD currents as much as w/ the
                > Southern Ocean, the oceans at depths have warmed:
                >
                > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
                >
                > This causes greater induction and while it may mean cooler SSTs or
                > cold interior, overall it has proven to melt these big glaciers.
                >
                >
                >
                > "We thought the ocean between 700 and 1,100 meters depth was pretty
                > well insulated from what's happening at the surface and that it
                > should respond more slowly than the shallow depths," said Gille, of
                > the Physical Oceanography Research Division at Scripps. "But these
                > results suggest that the mid-depth Southern Ocean is responding and
                > warming more rapidly than global ocean temperatures."
                >
                >
                > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > > You said
                > > "Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way
                > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
                clouds
                > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR."
                > >
                > > I understand that the greatest cooling was during the December
                > > through February Antarctic summer so wouldn't reduced cirrus mean
                > > increasing temperatures?
                > >
                > > http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/cold-
                > science/2002-
                > > 01-13-antarctic-cooling.htm
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > > > Fred,
                > > >
                > > > Per Fleming's right hand rule:
                > > >
                > > > First finger - movement of the conducter.
                > > > SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S)
                > > > ThuMb - direction of current (positive to negative)
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Let's break it down. Hold out your right hand so that your
                thumb
                > > is
                > > > touching the screen, your first finger is pointing to your
                right
                > > > parallel to the top of the screen, and your second finger
                toward
                > > the
                > > > middle of the CRT. Pretend the CRT is a map of the Southern
                Ocean
                > > > with the top of the screen the top of a circle with the center
                of
                > > the
                > > > CRT the magnetic S. Pole. Your first finger moves with the
                > > EASTWARD
                > > > current of the Southern Ocean. Your second finger points to
                the
                > > > magnetic north per Fleming's rule. In this case, magnetic
                north
                > is
                > > > the magnetic south pole. That is because a hand held magnet
                > which
                > > > has a magnetic north bar magnet will point its north pole
                toward
                > > the
                > > > earth's magnetic north pole, meaning that the earth's magnetic
                > > north
                > > > pole is like the magnetic south pole of a bar magnet, as
                opposits
                > > > attract. Your thumb, then, is direction of current, positive to
                > > > negitive, a vector INTO the ocean. Take you time to think it
                > > through.
                > > >
                > > > Now, that means that the current inducted by the movement of
                the
                > > > Southern Oceans winds and currents, generally speaking is
                moving
                > > > EASTWARD, as defined per Fleming's right hand rule as a
                movement
                > of
                > > > electrons INTO the OCEAN. (That eddy by where B-21 and 22 broke
                > off
                > > > and there is WESTWARD movements is an exception and explains
                the
                > > warm
                > > > anomalies there). Those electrons that move INTO the oceans
                take
                > > way
                > > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
                > clouds
                > > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR. Likewise, currents moving
                > > WESTWARD
                > > > by the glacial breakup enhance cirrus, enhance warmer
                conditions
                > > and
                > > > it has been show that that area has been almost 5 degrees C
                > warmer!
                > > > Since warmer oceans mean that the oceans have greater specific
                > > > conductivity, that means that what electrical current is
                inducted
                > > is
                > > > EVEN stronger, and explains the regional melting of break of of
                > > > glaciers and the colder interior that has made the news along
                > with
                > > > the reported warmer oceans there, and when I say warmer oceans,
                I
                > > > include the idea that warmer isn't just SSTs or sea SURFACE
                > > > temperatures, but ocean temperatures running to depths.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > > > > You said: "It also means that induction that generally occurs
                > is
                > > > > stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--which
                > > > > explains the cold interior of Antarctica."
                > > > >
                > > > > You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of
                > > > Antarctica?
                > > > > Fred
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > > > > > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN OCEAN
                > > OVER
                > > > > THE
                > > > > > LAST 50 YEARS
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage,
                > possible
                > > > > > implications:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Comment:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
                ice,
                > > and
                > > > > can
                > > > > > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means
                > that
                > > > > > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this
                case
                > > is
                > > > > > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior
                of
                > > > > > Antarctica.
              • pawnfart
                In addition to what Daddy notes, here is a link you might like: http://www.copernicus.org/EGS/acp/acpd/1/221/ ... VERY ... clouds ... 100 ... stands ...
                Message 7 of 7 , Apr 2, 2002
                  In addition to what Daddy notes, here is a link you might like:

                  http://www.copernicus.org/EGS/acp/acpd/1/221/

                  --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > pawnfart said "INBETWEEN are the cirrus clouds, and they have a
                  VERY
                  > powerful GHG impact. Some of the papers I have read on cirrus
                  clouds
                  > and the forcing involved are talking about differences over over
                  100
                  > watts per meter squared between the area with the cirrus and high
                  > clouds and the low clouds"
                  >
                  > 1. If the cirrus clouds are decreasing over Antarctica then it
                  stands
                  > to reason that more solar energy is reaching the surface and
                  > therefore surface temperatures should be increasing over the
                  interior
                  > not decreasing since the cooling reported is occuring mostly during
                  > the summer months when the sun is out 24/7.
                  >
                  > More clouds = less solar energy reaching the surface during summer.
                  > Less clouds = more solar energy reaching the surface during summer.
                  >
                  > you said "As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
                  > ice, and can put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also
                  means
                  > that induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this case
                  is
                  > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold interior of
                  > Antarctica."
                  >
                  > I say the opposite is true!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > Fred:
                  > >
                  > > Again, what we are talking about is surface lows contrasting HP
                  > > areas. Lows tend to have your fronts, your lightning, your
                  places
                  > > where there is negitive ionosphere to ground charges. In high
                  > > presure areas the ionosphere delivers about 250 volts per meter
                  > > squared from the ionosphere to ground. INBETWEEN are the cirrus
                  > > clouds, and they have a VERY powerful GHG impact. Some of the
                  > papers
                  > > I have read on cirrus clouds and the forcing involved are talking
                  > > about differences over over 100 watts per meter squared between
                  the
                  > > area with the cirrus and high clouds and the low clouds. So if a
                  > > forcing is consistant over a period of time it matters to SSTs
                  > (with
                  > > emphisis on SURFACE) and to temperatures like the interior.
                  > >
                  > > Now, in response to your article, look at this figure from
                  Keeling
                  > > Whorf. Note that the period 1,200 years ago was a low period in
                  > > tidal activity, meaning less hydrate depressurization. That
                  means
                  > > warmer oceans:
                  > >
                  > > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/8/3814/F2
                  > >
                  > > Warmer ocean then and now mean that there is more induction
                  against
                  > > cirrus being sustained electrially in this middle area between
                  > storm
                  > > and fair weather, and it amounts to a substantial forcing on the
                  > > surface.
                  > >
                  > > Note that after the warming from the northern hemisphere,
                  > > particularly where there isn't EASTWARD currents as much as w/
                  the
                  > > Southern Ocean, the oceans at depths have warmed:
                  > >
                  > > http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
                  > >
                  > > This causes greater induction and while it may mean cooler SSTs
                  or
                  > > cold interior, overall it has proven to melt these big glaciers.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "We thought the ocean between 700 and 1,100 meters depth was
                  pretty
                  > > well insulated from what's happening at the surface and that it
                  > > should respond more slowly than the shallow depths," said Gille,
                  of
                  > > the Physical Oceanography Research Division at Scripps. "But
                  these
                  > > results suggest that the mid-depth Southern Ocean is responding
                  and
                  > > warming more rapidly than global ocean temperatures."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > > You said
                  > > > "Those electrons that move INTO the oceans take way
                  > > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
                  > clouds
                  > > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR."
                  > > >
                  > > > I understand that the greatest cooling was during the December
                  > > > through February Antarctic summer so wouldn't reduced cirrus
                  mean
                  > > > increasing temperatures?
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.usatoday.com/news/healthscience/science/cold-
                  > > science/2002-
                  > > > 01-13-antarctic-cooling.htm
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > > > Fred,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Per Fleming's right hand rule:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > First finger - movement of the conducter.
                  > > > > SeCond finger - direction of magnetic field (N-S)
                  > > > > ThuMb - direction of current (positive to negative)
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Let's break it down. Hold out your right hand so that your
                  > thumb
                  > > > is
                  > > > > touching the screen, your first finger is pointing to your
                  > right
                  > > > > parallel to the top of the screen, and your second finger
                  > toward
                  > > > the
                  > > > > middle of the CRT. Pretend the CRT is a map of the Southern
                  > Ocean
                  > > > > with the top of the screen the top of a circle with the
                  center
                  > of
                  > > > the
                  > > > > CRT the magnetic S. Pole. Your first finger moves with the
                  > > > EASTWARD
                  > > > > current of the Southern Ocean. Your second finger points to
                  > the
                  > > > > magnetic north per Fleming's rule. In this case, magnetic
                  > north
                  > > is
                  > > > > the magnetic south pole. That is because a hand held magnet
                  > > which
                  > > > > has a magnetic north bar magnet will point its north pole
                  > toward
                  > > > the
                  > > > > earth's magnetic north pole, meaning that the earth's
                  magnetic
                  > > > north
                  > > > > pole is like the magnetic south pole of a bar magnet, as
                  > opposits
                  > > > > attract. Your thumb, then, is direction of current, positive
                  to
                  > > > > negitive, a vector INTO the ocean. Take you time to think it
                  > > > through.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Now, that means that the current inducted by the movement of
                  > the
                  > > > > Southern Oceans winds and currents, generally speaking is
                  > moving
                  > > > > EASTWARD, as defined per Fleming's right hand rule as a
                  > movement
                  > > of
                  > > > > electrons INTO the OCEAN. (That eddy by where B-21 and 22
                  broke
                  > > off
                  > > > > and there is WESTWARD movements is an exception and explains
                  > the
                  > > > warm
                  > > > > anomalies there). Those electrons that move INTO the oceans
                  > take
                  > > > way
                  > > > > from the ionosphere's ability to electrically enhance cirrus
                  > > clouds
                  > > > > and causes a cooling IN THE AIR. Likewise, currents moving
                  > > > WESTWARD
                  > > > > by the glacial breakup enhance cirrus, enhance warmer
                  > conditions
                  > > > and
                  > > > > it has been show that that area has been almost 5 degrees C
                  > > warmer!
                  > > > > Since warmer oceans mean that the oceans have greater
                  specific
                  > > > > conductivity, that means that what electrical current is
                  > inducted
                  > > > is
                  > > > > EVEN stronger, and explains the regional melting of break of
                  of
                  > > > > glaciers and the colder interior that has made the news along
                  > > with
                  > > > > the reported warmer oceans there, and when I say warmer
                  oceans,
                  > I
                  > > > > include the idea that warmer isn't just SSTs or sea SURFACE
                  > > > > temperatures, but ocean temperatures running to depths.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > > > > You said: "It also means that induction that generally
                  occurs
                  > > is
                  > > > > > stronger, and in this case is against cirrus formation--
                  which
                  > > > > > explains the cold interior of Antarctica."
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > You lost me here. How does this relate to cold interior of
                  > > > > Antarctica?
                  > > > > > Fred
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > -- In methanehydrateclub@y..., pawnfart <no_reply@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > > > > > > SCRIPPS SCIENTIST DISCOVERS WARMING TREND IN SOUTHERN
                  OCEAN
                  > > > OVER
                  > > > > > THE
                  > > > > > > LAST 50 YEARS
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Decline in Antarctic sea ice, carbon dioxide storage,
                  > > possible
                  > > > > > > implications:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > >
                  http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/pressreleases/gille_science_warm.html
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Comment:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > As I have been mentioning here, warmer melts the glacial
                  > ice,
                  > > > and
                  > > > > > can
                  > > > > > > put cold capping waters to the ENSO cycle. It also means
                  > > that
                  > > > > > > induction that generally occurs is stronger, and in this
                  > case
                  > > > is
                  > > > > > > against cirrus formation--which explains the cold
                  interior
                  > of
                  > > > > > > Antarctica.
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