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Re: Solar Activity Report for 8/11/05

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  • space1weather
    ... seems ... I am not referring to all areas here .... I believe earth responds- already knows what s going on ...I know the rule of thumb about higher
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 13, 2005
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      > I certainly won't argue the point that the sun affects the climate,
      > but I'd be a bit sceptical of the fact that it happens on a
      > one-day-to-the next basis.
      >
      > Anyway, I'm of the opinion that an active sun means warmer temps, and
      > vice-versa. Taking your hypothesis out through a much longer time
      > period, shouldn't we see a really significant warm-up through periods
      > of prolonged solar inactivity? It's the opposite, however, that
      seems
      > to be true. Turn the sunspots down for a few thousand years, and you
      > get an ice age.


      I am not referring to all areas here .... I believe earth responds-
      already knows what's going on ...I know the rule of thumb about higher
      activity...warmer temps but this is different.

      I am referring to the relationship with steering currents. I believe
      there are many out there but it depends upon the other variables
      involved.

      One example of many ....a large trans equatorial Positive recurrent
      coronal hole (Seven times)from October 1999-April 2000. Played with
      the steering currents. Started writing about it during occurrance.

      Seven data groups...Eight days ...So this is 56 days out of the 90 day
      winter...Seperated groups ...Three day cold period...Five day warm
      period....Warm period starts when proton denisity level reached 10
      p/cc while windstream/sector is arriving. So the three cold days occur
      before the five warm days.

      So cold days were actually occurring when the c-hole was making it's
      central meridian crossing....Baliunas and Soon found a correlation
      with cooler troposphere temperatures and C-holes...I sent it to her
      and she wrote back asking if she could send it to Willie. I told her I
      already had.

      I forget what the Dec-Feb winter anomaly average at Reagan National
      was but it was considerably above average. I think the mean
      temperature difference between the 21 day and 35 day groups was almost
      11.50 degrees.

      The average high temperature anomaly for the warm period days
      (35) ..post 10 p/cc... was around 6 degrees above average. (The nights
      were warmer...clouds etc.. higher lows...raised the mean average
      higher)

      When you seperated the 56 days from the rest of the winter it ended
      up being almost normal (within about one degree I think)

      Major northeaster...in February ...which I believe was solar eruption
      related.... skewed the warm days by pulling down very cold air or it
      would have been even way higher.

      I think in two or three consectutive C-hole appearances the anomaly
      between the two different groups was around 15 degrees.


      Jim
    • space1weather
      ... doubt ... the ... Mike, I like to look at where the 30 day average is going or maybe even the 4 or 5 day smoothed. I will consider the daily average of a
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 13, 2005
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        --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Doran"
        <narodaleahcim@a...> wrote:
        > Jim,
        >
        > We have a rising SOI--and Irene probably headed near you. No
        doubt
        > you will get wave rain features from this storm. As in you get
        the
        > opposite
        >
        > 9-Aug-2005 1014.11 1014.55 -12.50 -1.45 -5.12
        > 10-Aug-2005 1014.01 1014.00 -9.70 -2.05 -5.25
        > 11-Aug-2005 1013.99 1013.10 -4.40 -2.57 -5.29
        > 12-Aug-2005 1014.91 1013.20 0.50 -3.18 -5.13
        >



        Mike,

        I like to look at where the 30 day average is going or maybe even
        the 4 or 5 day smoothed. I will consider the daily average of a
        different anomaly (-/+) if it is very high...at least 20-25...The 30
        day has been moving negative as you well know.

        Washington DC OCM Bob Ryan, of NBC, said Reagan National was at 86
        degrees at 11pm last night ....Very hot already this morning.


        Jim
      • Mike Doran
        http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/FLOAT2/IR4/20.jpg http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/SeasonalClimateOutlook/SouthernOscil
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 13, 2005
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          http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/DATA/RT/FLOAT2/IR4/20.jpg

          http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/SeasonalClimateOutlook/SouthernOscil
          lationIndex/30DaySOIValues/index.html

          http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at4+shtml/024541.shtml?swath

          Don't know how real time you are but if you can check out these links
          what you will see is that the IR link shows a healthy blob of
          convection BUT NO EYE. If you look below at the NHC link the wind
          swath is pretty good HOWEVER that only describes the bottom of
          coupling between ionosphere and ocean, not what the ionosphere is
          doing. Then look at the Long Paddock link and the SOI fell back
          negative somewhat. Again, I am not looking at space weather, just
          what regional conductivities are doing to the cloud microphyiscs.

          Okay.

          Now, what the difference is between a longer range SOI reading and a
          short range one is that the SOI over a short period of time is mostly
          about roiling and depressurization in that region--out gassing of
          CO2, which impacts momentary conductivies in the region. However, if
          a wind between Darwin and Tahiti is SUSTAINED then you have moving
          salt spray that starts to have an INDUCTION meaning to the impedence
          values. In other words the sustained wind itself starts to have
          electrical meaning and sometimes that overcomes, in terms of global
          electrical circuit patterns, the significance of outgassing. You
          see, the back and forth of the SOI can also be mostly about
          discharging and recharging. Of course, such conductivity meaning can
          occur in ALL the oceans, and such induction meaning can occur in all
          the oceans, and SST changes, such as upwelling events, can also occur
          in all of the oceans. But the Pacific is the largest expanse of ITCZ
          and so electrical changes in the Pacific have significant global
          significance . . .

          This year was unique because while we may have had many features in
          the Pacific electrically similar to an El Nino, the tidal wave's
          impact on the conductivities in the Indian Ocean did not allow it to
          form. So if you have some correlations with solar activity that
          would have been more predesposed to an El Nino--it again points to
          how important it is what the earth DOES with those inputs. I am not
          saying that the solar inputs are not critically important, but rather
          discussing mechanism. Ultimately, this is how you will connect
          weather with climate, and how you reasonably explain to the
          barotropical people how you are seeing over their event horizon.

          So presently with the SOI falling there is less ability for the
          tropical storm Irene to see a capacitive coupling from the ionosphere
          down and the storm becomes less connected to the ITCZ and has a less
          westward tendency as the ITCZ. Thermodynamic principals would have
          it seeking the colder places such as Greenland, and so it is no
          surprise that the models have it moving north.

          But I still think the Carolinas are going to get hit, as there was
          Fabian before they were hit two years ago.

          There is a George Karlin joke about women, asking if five twos equals
          a ten. I predicted 2 major fish storms and now we have three strong
          tropical storms which were fish. We are getting closer to the time
          when the Carolinas have the most to be concerned. However, the
          patterns of strikes in the CONUS seem to a little more north with
          things so I don't know. I shouldn't second guess my earlier forecast
          as it is based on the biological things I see then. We shall
          see . . .









          --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, space1weather
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Doran"
          > <narodaleahcim@a...> wrote:
          > > Jim,
          > >
          > > We have a rising SOI--and Irene probably headed near you. No
          > doubt
          > > you will get wave rain features from this storm. As in you get
          > the
          > > opposite
          > >
          > > 9-Aug-2005 1014.11 1014.55 -12.50 -1.45 -5.12
          > > 10-Aug-2005 1014.01 1014.00 -9.70 -2.05 -5.25
          > > 11-Aug-2005 1013.99 1013.10 -4.40 -2.57 -5.29
          > > 12-Aug-2005 1014.91 1013.20 0.50 -3.18 -5.13
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > Mike,
          >
          > I like to look at where the 30 day average is going or maybe even
          > the 4 or 5 day smoothed. I will consider the daily average of a
          > different anomaly (-/+) if it is very high...at least 20-25...The
          30
          > day has been moving negative as you well know.
          >
          > Washington DC OCM Bob Ryan, of NBC, said Reagan National was at 86
          > degrees at 11pm last night ....Very hot already this morning.
          >
          >
          > Jim
        • David
          I think I understand what you re getting at, Jim, and we re actually talking about two different things. What I was talking about is overall solar activity
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 16, 2005
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            I think I understand what you're getting at, Jim, and we're actually
            talking about two different things. What I was talking about is
            overall solar activity associated with the solar max. If I understand
            you correctly, you're talking about coronal holes in particular.

            However, I'm still confused. You'll have more days of high solar wind
            speed with the solar max than with the bottom of the cycle.
            Therefore, it would seem that the connection between higher solar
            activity and higher terrestrial temps would still work. As far as the
            Earth is concerned, a high solar wind speed is a high solar wind
            speed, no matter if the speedy wind is coming from a coronal hole or
            the most recent really impressive X-class flare. That being the case,
            I don't see how a high speed solar wind from a coronal hole can cause
            cooling, while an active sun causes warming.

            Unless you're saying that the overall increase in solar energy output
            of an active sun is enough to offset the effect of the high-speed wind??
          • space1weather
            In this case I was referring to a specific area of the world that seems to be affected during the presence of certain space weather variables when certain
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 17, 2005
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              In this case I was referring to a specific area of the world that
              seems to be affected during the presence of certain space weather
              variables when certain atmopsheric oceanic teleconnections are in
              place.

              Steering currents...trough ..ridge etc...Where will the Bermuda high
              be?

              The Baranyi paper talks about the importance of different magnetic
              field vectors etc...and it's relationship with corpuscular radiaton.
              Everywhere is not effected the same. This has always been my thought
              also.

              As far as C-holes and CME's. These are two different ball games
              unless the CME is a tranisient. The Earths environment reacts
              totally different and it should. The wave action within a CME is
              completely different than a C-hole.

              Look at the neutron monitors yesterday. GCR level hardly changed
              even though solar wind speed was near 700 km/sec. This is not going
              to occur with a CME. The > 2 Mev Electron fluence levels stayed
              above 0.0e+07. This also is not usually going to occur.



              Jim


              --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, "David" <b1blancer1@e...>
              wrote:
              > I think I understand what you're getting at, Jim, and we're
              actually
              > talking about two different things. What I was talking about is
              > overall solar activity associated with the solar max. If I
              understand
              > you correctly, you're talking about coronal holes in particular.
              >
              > However, I'm still confused. You'll have more days of high solar
              wind
              > speed with the solar max than with the bottom of the cycle.
              > Therefore, it would seem that the connection between higher solar
              > activity and higher terrestrial temps would still work. As far as
              the
              > Earth is concerned, a high solar wind speed is a high solar wind
              > speed, no matter if the speedy wind is coming from a coronal hole
              or
              > the most recent really impressive X-class flare. That being the
              case,
              > I don't see how a high speed solar wind from a coronal hole can
              cause
              > cooling, while an active sun causes warming.
              >
              > Unless you're saying that the overall increase in solar energy
              output
              > of an active sun is enough to offset the effect of the high-speed
              wind??
            • Mike Doran
              Jim, I didn t mean to avoid your question. It s just that it is a very difficult one: Here is a blog which one of the top posts features a bet regarding the
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 18, 2005
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                Jim,

                I didn't mean to avoid your question. It's just that it is a very
                difficult one:


                Here is a blog which one of the top posts features a bet regarding
                the sun causing temperatures to fall:

                http://timlambert.org/2005/07/climate-audiot/#comments

                These fake skeptics continue to ignore what ELECTRICAL and BIOLOGICAL
                orders are brought to the climate system. Note that in this
                discussion there is not ONE WORD about electrical or biological order
                to the climate system. NOTHING.

                Anyway, to this idea of an event horizon. Obviously, when a study
                shows that tropical storm intensity and frequency has increased, that
                is a sign of low entropy. Really low entropy. Or put another way a
                lot of order. That order tends to go to disorder. Warm goes to
                cold. Clouds in a circle or line fuzz out to no pressure differences
                in no patterns. That is the way of the closed system, which, of
                course, is not closed. The problem is that the orders imposed on
                cloud microphysics differ from that brught about by heat and
                pressures alone. And those orders, as you point out, are complex
                from the input end. I am here to say they are also complex from the
                dampening side as well--what the biosphere as a whole does with what
                comes in.

                The confusions are there across all the horizons.

                So there are event horizons like the sun coming up from night to day--
                but then there is the electrical part---how the sun can heat and
                cause thunderstorms on one side of the earth in the afternoon and
                those thunderstorms can connect electrical conditions to the dark
                side of the earth.

                There is the sun going through the solar cycle, and what changes in
                lumenosity may have different electrical conditions that cause the
                way fronts and air currents move, just as you suggest, in different
                manners. That is because the microphysics changes mean different
                viscosity values, different ways that order moves toward disorder.

                When I have looked at my long range hurricane forecast, I have been
                looking for the solar cycle and hurricane history for climatology to
                see if I can spot what occurs globally with different solar inputs.

                When I look at what you and David are doing, I have a more complex
                set of ideas. There isn't much time for modulation to occur, either,
                other than the basic stuff, like where are the hydrate fields and
                microbial blooms and so forth. Plus the barotropic trends, where the
                SOI, NAO, PDO, ENSO is, and so forth. Then I have been looking at
                strikes, of course.

                In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, space1weather <no_reply@y...>
                wrote:
                > In this case I was referring to a specific area of the world that
                > seems to be affected during the presence of certain space weather
                > variables when certain atmopsheric oceanic teleconnections are in
                > place.
                >
                > Steering currents...trough ..ridge etc...Where will the Bermuda
                high
                > be?
                >
                > The Baranyi paper talks about the importance of different magnetic
                > field vectors etc...and it's relationship with corpuscular
                radiaton.
                > Everywhere is not effected the same. This has always been my
                thought
                > also.
                >
                > As far as C-holes and CME's. These are two different ball games
                > unless the CME is a tranisient. The Earths environment reacts
                > totally different and it should. The wave action within a CME is
                > completely different than a C-hole.
                >
                > Look at the neutron monitors yesterday. GCR level hardly changed
                > even though solar wind speed was near 700 km/sec. This is not going
                > to occur with a CME. The > 2 Mev Electron fluence levels stayed
                > above 0.0e+07. This also is not usually going to occur.
                >
                >
                >
                > Jim
                >
                >
                > --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, "David"
                <b1blancer1@e...>
                > wrote:
                > > I think I understand what you're getting at, Jim, and we're
                > actually
                > > talking about two different things. What I was talking about is
                > > overall solar activity associated with the solar max. If I
                > understand
                > > you correctly, you're talking about coronal holes in particular.
                > >
                > > However, I'm still confused. You'll have more days of high solar
                > wind
                > > speed with the solar max than with the bottom of the cycle.
                > > Therefore, it would seem that the connection between higher solar
                > > activity and higher terrestrial temps would still work. As far
                as
                > the
                > > Earth is concerned, a high solar wind speed is a high solar wind
                > > speed, no matter if the speedy wind is coming from a coronal hole
                > or
                > > the most recent really impressive X-class flare. That being the
                > case,
                > > I don't see how a high speed solar wind from a coronal hole can
                > cause
                > > cooling, while an active sun causes warming.
                > >
                > > Unless you're saying that the overall increase in solar energy
                > output
                > > of an active sun is enough to offset the effect of the high-speed
                > wind??
              • David
                ... If this is true, it just made things a whole lot more complicated. On a global scale, we know that an absence of sunspots, even for a relatively short
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 20, 2005
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                  --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, space1weather
                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > In this case I was referring to a specific area of the world that
                  > seems to be affected during the presence of certain space weather
                  > variables when certain atmopsheric oceanic teleconnections are in
                  > place.
                  >
                  > Steering currents...trough ..ridge etc...Where will the Bermuda high
                  > be?

                  If this is true, it just made things a whole lot more complicated. On
                  a global scale, we know that an absence of sunspots, even for a
                  relatively short time, can cause a striking effect. From what I've
                  seen, though, I don't believe coronal hole frequency changes with the
                  sunspot cycles.

                  >
                  > The Baranyi paper talks about the importance of different magnetic
                  > field vectors etc...and it's relationship with corpuscular radiaton.
                  > Everywhere is not effected the same. This has always been my thought
                  > also.
                  >

                  I hadn't really thought about it in that way before, but I could see
                  the possibility.

                  Okay, so if we have a case of different parts of the world being
                  affected in different ways by a high-speed solar wind, would the same
                  hold true for CME impacts and solar radiation storms?
                • space1weather
                  ... complicated. On ... the ... I asked that coronal hole question to a well regarded SEC solar expert years ago. She said she did not have the answer. Well
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 20, 2005
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                    , "David" <b1blancer1@e...> wrote:
                    > --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, space1weather
                    >
                    > If this is true, it just made things a whole lot more
                    complicated. On
                    > a global scale, we know that an absence of sunspots, even for a
                    > relatively short time, can cause a striking effect. From what I've
                    > seen, though, I don't believe coronal hole frequency changes with
                    the
                    > sunspot cycles.

                    I asked that coronal hole question to a well regarded SEC solar
                    expert years ago. She said she did not have the answer. Well if the
                    aurora was not seen for decades in the northern latitudes during the
                    Maunder minimum then the coronal holes had to have been absent
                    during the lulls.

                    Now I know you can have very low geomagnetic activity...like the
                    latest ...with some fairly strong 700 km/sec winds but something odd
                    would have to happen with the IMF-earth's magnetic field for us to
                    have no high latitude storming everyone once in a while.

                    People may not have known what the northern lights actually wereback
                    then but they were written about all the time. I have a book with
                    historical sightings that goes back several centuries...with
                    specific dates.. for the big ones

                    Now if you believe like I have for quite some time and some recent
                    papers are saying that the changes in the pole's polarities are
                    related to the cyclical nature of their presence...espeically
                    around maximum..when the poles reverse polarities (10/99-5/2000 C-
                    hole one example) than this would make sense.

                    I would imagine that the poles must get extremely weak...magnetic
                    wise... or one pole completely dominates over the other and you
                    almost just have one polarity.



                    > I hadn't really thought about it in that way before, but I could
                    see
                    > the possibility.
                    >
                    > Okay, so if we have a case of different parts of the world being
                    > affected in different ways by a high-speed solar wind, would the
                    same
                    > hold true for CME impacts and solar radiation storms?


                    Absolutely and I have seen relationships with them. I believe the
                    truth about these relationships have alluded us for so long because
                    what seemed like an obvious relationship...ones investigated...
                    didn't hold much water ... and what most likely is a relationship...
                    never entered most peoples mind.

                    The meteorological and climatological community have been in charge
                    of most of this research...somewhat...and they just could not
                    comprehend or admit as to how some areas could be effected and not
                    others. I have had this exact discussions with many individuals
                    within the field over the years.

                    That was their biggest obstacle with them believing in my forecasts.
                    Even after they occurred. They said that it could not effect us and
                    not....maybe Colorado etc...

                    Jim
                  • David
                    ... Even a blank sun can have a coronal hole make an appearance, as we ve seen, so I ll assume they were around during the Maunder Minimum. Then again, there
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 21, 2005
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                      > I asked that coronal hole question to a well regarded SEC solar
                      > expert years ago. She said she did not have the answer. Well if the
                      > aurora was not seen for decades in the northern latitudes during the
                      > Maunder minimum then the coronal holes had to have been absent
                      > during the lulls.

                      Even a blank sun can have a coronal hole make an appearance, as we've
                      seen, so I'll assume they were around during the Maunder Minimum.
                      Then again, there was obviously something odd happening to suppress
                      the sunspots to such a degree for a long (from our perspective) period
                      of time, so who knows?

                      >
                      > Now I know you can have very low geomagnetic activity...like the
                      > latest ...with some fairly strong 700 km/sec winds but something odd
                      > would have to happen with the IMF-earth's magnetic field for us to
                      > have no high latitude storming everyone once in a while.

                      Agreed.

                      >
                      > People may not have known what the northern lights actually wereback
                      > then but they were written about all the time. I have a book with
                      > historical sightings that goes back several centuries...with
                      > specific dates.. for the big ones
                      >
                      > Now if you believe like I have for quite some time and some recent
                      > papers are saying that the changes in the pole's polarities are
                      > related to the cyclical nature of their presence...espeically
                      > around maximum..when the poles reverse polarities (10/99-5/2000 C-
                      > hole one example) than this would make sense.
                      >
                      > I would imagine that the poles must get extremely weak...magnetic
                      > wise... or one pole completely dominates over the other and you
                      > almost just have one polarity.
                      >

                      I dunno, maybe. Or, the solar magnetic field could become really
                      convoluted with north and south poles popping up in all sorts of odd
                      places until it settles down into the new polarity.
                    • space1weather
                      ... we ve ... period ... Well I would tend to think you are right at first but if you think about it for a second we are only going by what has occured the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 25, 2005
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                        --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, "David" <b1blancer1@e...>
                        wrote:

                        >
                        > Even a blank sun can have a coronal hole make an appearance, as
                        we've
                        > seen, so I'll assume they were around during the Maunder Minimum.
                        > Then again, there was obviously something odd happening to suppress
                        > the sunspots to such a degree for a long (from our perspective)
                        period
                        > of time, so who knows?



                        Well I would tend to think you are right at first but if you think
                        about it for a second we are only going by what has occured the past
                        few decades.

                        The poles are strongest towards minimum and they can wax and wane
                        almost throughout the whole cycle except for the short stint right
                        after solar minimum and during the rise towards maximum.

                        If the sun is extremely quiet than the poles have to be also....or
                        at least out of character from what they have been behaving like for
                        the past few decades.

                        Almost everything... flares, c-holes, sunspots , geomagnetic
                        storming...etc... follow the polar changes.

                        Could they pop up everywhere like you mentioned? I don't know...
                        maybe....but in a way they do already...with sunspot regions and
                        coronal holes. I could not disregard any theory with what little we
                        know about it. I seem to recall a similar theory regarding the
                        earth's magnetic flip..although different.



                        Jim
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