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Re: 30,000 litres of radioactive water poured into the Rhine river!!!

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  • Steve Dodd
    ... Exactly. How long does it take the water and discharge point to release the ocean? I don t know a lot about these things, but I d guess a matter of days,
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 29 11:05 AM
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      On Thu, Apr 29, 2004 at 05:39:20PM -0000, David wrote:

      > > This just happened on Saturday but there is barely any news about
      > > it!!! What these articles don't say is that this just rendered the
      > > river undrinkable for 100's of years to come. If you are getting an
      > > xray for every four liters of water you drink, that's alot of xrays
      > > in one year. Basically they just ruined the river, not only for the
      > > area's inhabitants but for their children and their grandchildren.
      > > One little mistake with Nuclear and it can lead to a hazardous
      > > situation.

      > Now this is a classic example of how two people can interpret the same
      > thing in vastly different ways. When I read the article, I didn't get
      > the impression at all that the entire river had been made unhealthy at
      > all. I interpreted the statement to say that drinking 4 liters of the
      > discharged water would give the approximate radiation dose of a dental
      > X-ray.

      Exactly. How long does it take the water and discharge point to release
      the ocean? I don't know a lot about these things, but I'd guess a matter
      of days, at most.

      This is an example of a deeper problem, I think. When I read "river", I
      *see* a river, with water *flowing* along it. Is it possible others just
      see the letters R I V E R in their heads, with no associated
      information?

      --
      Home+FOAF: http://www.loth.org.uk/ OpenPGP: 201A57B6
      Original portions © 2004 Steve Dodd
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      "Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the
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      church and the state forever separated."
      -- Ulysses S. Grant
    • XK SAZ
      You agreed that radiation poisoning causes cancer. But then you don t believe that if it spills out into the environment it is dangerous? That doesn t make any
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 29 1:01 PM
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        You agreed that radiation poisoning causes cancer. But then you don't believe that if it
        spills out into the environment it is dangerous? That doesn't make any sense.
        Rivers don't just flow straight out into the ocean, they go into tributaries, pools, lakes,
        dams. Fish and other animals live in rivers. We eat the fish. Just a small amount of
        radiation is enough to alter cell growth.

        Would you bath and drink from the Rhine? Would you let your kids do it knowing there is a
        risk?
        I'd rather be safe than sorry and there is too many accidents, deaths, and long term
        destruction from nuclear to feel at all safe. It's nice that you feel safe but its not
        necessarily good for you. It's like a country boy going into the city and playing the shell
        game with a street person and then wondering what happened to all his money.
        On an up note, I did read that victims of Hiroshima who ate Japanese diets had a much
        lower rate of cancer than those who ate Western diets. There are food sources that can act
        as antioxidents/ Poison antidote.
        In reality we all know so little about the world around us, the more we learn the more we
        realize how much we don't know. Our medical knowledge base doubles every 3 years.
        Remember that X28 solar flare? The news warned pregnant women not to fly those couple
        days because they would receive the equivalent to a few xrays in the plane. Would we have
        gotten that warning 20 yrs ago? Did we have the technology in place to constantly monitor
        the sun? Soho only went up in '95.

        In the bay area, where they used to clean off nuclear submarines in WW2, there is one of
        the highest rates of breast cancer in the country.
        http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/hunters_point.htm
        4 women I know well, between 30 and 50's have gotten breast cancer. 3 died, 1 is going to
        die in the next couple months.
        When you are diagnosing something, in addition to noting symptoms, you have to look at
        "What has changed" to cause this bad bill of health. There are a lot of fingers pointing
        towards the nuclear problem.

        Now I suppose we should agree to disagree and quit arguing.

        --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, "David" <b1blancer1@e...> wrote:
        > > This just happened on Saturday but there is barely any news about it!!!
        > > What these articles don't say is that this just rendered the river
        > undrinka=
        > > ble for 100's of
        > > years to come. If you are getting an xray for every four liters of
        > water yo=
        > > u drink, that's alot
        > > of xrays in one year. Basically they just ruined the river, not only
        > for th=
        > > e area's inhabitants
        > > but for their children and their grandchildren. One little mistake
        > with Nuc=
        > > lear and it can
        > > lead to a hazardous situation.
        > >
        >
        > Now this is a classic example of how two people can interpret the same
        > thing in vastly different ways. When I read the article, I didn't get
        > the impression at all that the entire river had been made unhealthy at
        > all. I interpreted the statement to say that drinking 4 liters of the
        > discharged water would give the approximate radiation dose of a dental
        > X-ray.
        >
        > Obviously, the discharged water would be greatly diluted by the water
        > already in the river, bringing the concentration of radiation down
        > dramatically. And the statements "What these articles don't say is
        > that this just rendered the river undrinkable for 100's of years to
        > come" and "Basically they just ruined the river" are plainly wrong.
        > What do rivers do? They flow to the ocean! Whatever radioactive
        > water was discharged would very soon be diluted and swept out to sea,
        > to be diluted even more! It's sensation statements like the ones you
        > made that damage the credibility of the anti-nuclear prople even more
        > than it already has been. They simply do not stand the test of logical
        > thinking and science. Crying wolf often does far more harm than good.
      • David
        ... don t believe that if it ... any sense. ... tributaries, pools, lakes, ... small amount of ... If you want to completely avoid radiation, then you d better
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 29 2:54 PM
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          --- In methanehydrateclub@yahoogroups.com, "XK SAZ" <swezlex1@y...> wrote:
          > You agreed that radiation poisoning causes cancer. But then you
          don't believe that if it
          > spills out into the environment it is dangerous? That doesn't make
          any sense.
          > Rivers don't just flow straight out into the ocean, they go into
          tributaries, pools, lakes,
          > dams. Fish and other animals live in rivers. We eat the fish. Just a
          small amount of
          > radiation is enough to alter cell growth.
          >

          If you want to completely avoid radiation, then you'd better build a
          lead room and seal yourself in it. Radiation is everywhere. Make a
          flight in an airliner, especially during a solar storm, and you'll get
          a nice dose of it.

          > Would you bath and drink from the Rhine? Would you let your kids do
          it knowing there is a
          > risk?

          After it was properly treated to kill the bacteria, yes, I would drink
          it or bathe in it without hesitation.

          > In reality we all know so little about the world around us, the more
          we learn the more we
          > realize how much we don't know. Our medical knowledge base doubles
          every 3 years.
          > Remember that X28 solar flare? The news warned pregnant women not to
          fly those couple
          > days because they would receive the equivalent to a few xrays in the
          plane. Would we have
          > gotten that warning 20 yrs ago? Did we have the technology in place
          to constantly monitor
          > the sun? Soho only went up in '95.
          >

          I agree with that.

          > In the bay area, where they used to clean off nuclear submarines in
          WW2, there is one of
          > the highest rates of breast cancer in the country.
          > http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/hunters_point.htm
          > 4 women I know well, between 30 and 50's have gotten breast cancer.
          3 died, 1 is going to
          > die in the next couple months.
          > When you are diagnosing something, in addition to noting symptoms,
          you have to look at
          > "What has changed" to cause this bad bill of health. There are a lot
          of fingers pointing
          > towards the nuclear problem.
          >

          I don't dispute the fact that radiation can be deadly. I'd be stupid
          if I said that. I also lost both my Mother and Father to cancer, so
          believe me, I know how painful that is to have to watch. My Dad was
          66 when he died in '82, which is relatively young by today's
          standards. He was a dentist, and must have taken tens of thousands of
          X-rays throughout his long career. Many of them were taken before
          modern safeguards were implemented, and made with older equipment that
          put out a stronger X-ray dose. Could there be a link? Beats me. He
          also smoked, although he didn't die of lung cancer. Ironically, his
          lungs were clear and his heart was strong. He died of abdominal
          cancer. By the time they found it, it was too late and pretty
          widespread. His death certificate says it may have started in his
          appendix. X-ray induced? Who knows??

          So you see, I am not completely unsympathetic. Nor do I think that
          the nuclear industry is perfect or that the gov't always tells the
          truth. I do not, however, believe going into a panic every time
          there is a small radiation release is the answer, and I still maintain
          that the nuclear power industry is for the most part doing a very good
          job.
        • mike@usinter.net
          ... get ... Don t get the wrong impression, I don t advocate for or against nuke energy, because I don t know much about the subject, but radiation and cancer
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 29 11:14 PM
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            > If you want to completely avoid radiation, then you'd better build a
            > lead room and seal yourself in it. Radiation is everywhere. Make a
            > flight in an airliner, especially during a solar storm, and you'll
            get
            > a nice dose of it.
            >

            Don't get the wrong impression, I don't advocate for or against nuke
            energy, because I don't know much about the subject, but radiation
            and cancer is also a part of gaia. The atmosphere probably had
            periods of thin coverage where radiation struck the surface more--and
            growth regulation would want to be reduced--IOWs you want the cells
            to divide and multiply, because in so doing they would increase the
            conductivity of patches, and then increase the earth EMF, and reduce
            the amount of atmosphere lost by the wisking from the solar winds--
            and the atmosphere would increase and the radiation would also
            decrease.

            Like junk DNA, even complex creatures have remnants of a past that
            was closer to the regulations I am talking about . . .
          • XK SAZ
            My mother died of cancer, pretty young 51 yrs old. She was a doctor too. An x-ray machine didn t occur to me until you mentioned it. Too bad radiation is
            Message 5 of 7 , May 28, 2004
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              My mother died of cancer, pretty young 51 yrs old. She was a doctor
              too. An x-ray machine didn't occur to me until you mentioned it.
              Too bad radiation is invisible. We need built in geiger counter
              sensors. It seems we should evolve that among other modern poison
              detectors. We probably evolved the ability to sense hot and cold so as
              not to get burned or frozen... Eyes so we don't bump into things.
              When is the next step.

              > I don't dispute the fact that radiation can be deadly. I'd be stupid
              > if I said that. I also lost both my Mother and Father to cancer, so
              > believe me, I know how painful that is to have to watch. My Dad was
              > 66 when he died in '82, which is relatively young by today's
              > standards. He was a dentist, and must have taken tens of thousands of
              > X-rays throughout his long career. Many of them were taken before
              > modern safeguards were implemented, and made with older equipment that
              > put out a stronger X-ray dose. Could there be a link? Beats me. He
              > also smoked, although he didn't die of lung cancer. Ironically, his
              > lungs were clear and his heart was strong. He died of abdominal
              > cancer. By the time they found it, it was too late and pretty
              > widespread. His death certificate says it may have started in his
              > appendix. X-ray induced? Who knows??
              >
              > So you see, I am not completely unsympathetic. Nor do I think that
              > the nuclear industry is perfect or that the gov't always tells the
              > truth. I do not, however, believe going into a panic every time
              > there is a small radiation release is the answer, and I still maintain
              > that the nuclear power industry is for the most part doing a very good
              > job.
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