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Re: [Methane Hydrate Club] Re: He passed.

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  • mike
    ... You are not here writing about an earth 7,000 years old. The Christian faith is much younger than this. Some find this a difficult thing to resolve. In
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 3, 2002
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      > <BR>
      > > His one book is on quatum selection and I <BR>
      > > learned about it over at the creation/evolution thread. Anyway, it
      > <BR>
      > > discusses how evolution has reacted to selective pressures on very
      > <BR>
      > > small, quantum scales, that over geo time have significance in the
      > <BR>
      > > gene expression. So this is the other end of the spectrum of what
      > I <BR>
      > > am talking about, and his work is no less controversial for those
      > in <BR>
      > > the biological sciences who view selection as from processes of
      > <BR>
      > > random mutations. He suggests a tie, for instance, between quatum
      > <BR>
      > > states and the way that the DNA might more actively mutate with a
      > <BR>
      > > feedback involved that varies probabilities of mutation given <BR>
      > > conditions, and this is way outside of the accepted view of things
      > <BR>
      > > that mutations are random. Likewise, Gaia makes a comment on the
      > <BR>
      > > selective pressures themselves. <BR>
      > <BR>
      > Quantum mechanics and the changing of genes?  Now there's a link
      > I<BR>
      > hadn't heard about before, but it does sound very interesting.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > >  And I can almost see an atmospheric specialist like <BR>
      > > Christy, who doubles as a Christain minister, turning different
      > <BR>
      > > colors in rage over this discussion, and of course the typical
      > <BR>
      > > Christain prone to ranking on me--calling me a earth
      > worshipper--<BR>
      > > another golden calf. Christains are taught from an early age, or
      > <BR>
      > > should I say indoctrinated, that there are horrible sects, from
      > witch <BR>
      > > craft to Catholics, who will send you to hell--so I can only
      > imagine <BR>
      > > that this global evolutionary science named after the greek
      > goddess <BR>
      > > who dealt with chaos would not sit well with those who try to
      > carry <BR>
      > > the torch of science and Christainity at the same time. <BR>
      > <BR>
      > I think that perhaps you're unfairly stereotyping Christians.  I
      > am a<BR>
      > Born-Again Christian, and I am not ashamed of that, nor do I try to<BR>
      > hide it.  I suppose I do, however, match your description of being
      > a<BR>
      > devotee of science while also being a Christian. <BR>

      You are not here writing about an earth 7,000 years old. The Christian
      faith is much younger than this. Some find this a difficult thing to
      resolve. In the end, I am probably more of a Kirkagaurdian Christian--
      but, you know, if you meet Jesus 2,000 years ago and weren't a wine
      drinker, more of a beer drinker like me, you may not have gone to the
      same bars . . .

      > > But over huge timescales there is more. The very character of the
      > <BR>
      > > siesmic and erosion processes was different. CO2 levels were
      > greater, <BR>
      > > say, in the Carbonferious and CO2 forms carbonic acid, which would
      > <BR>
      > > increase weathering rates. Oceans warmer and shallow which would
      > <BR>
      > > allow the hydrates to be more EMF proximate and the calcium <BR>
      > > carbanate's impact to be less of a EMF sink. Upwelling events
      > would <BR>
      > > have differed. This would present altogether much different and
      > <BR>
      > > greater EMF feedbacks of heat retaining cirrus in the CONTEXT OF A
      > <BR>
      > > LESS LUMENOUS SUN. Hence, not only is Carl Sagan's mystery of a
      > less <BR>
      > > lumenous sun solved, but this certainly addresses the question of
      > <BR>
      > > whether globally climate emperically behaves in a steady state or
      > <BR>
      > > not. <BR>
      > <BR>
      > I'm not familiar with the Carl Sagan theory you mentioned, but it<BR>
      > would be a mistake to believe that our sun's output has remained<BR>
      > completely constant throughout its life.  Extensive observations
      > have<BR>
      > shown that the energy output of even stable stars is not constant,
      > but<BR>
      > is subject to some striking variations.<BR>

      I am not familiar w/ theories of shorter term variability other then the
      one related to the sun's EMF.

      However, Sagan's famous essay discussion centers around an early, cooler
      sun over huge timescales. As you may know, that was Sagan's field.
      Anyway, he talked about how on billion year timescales the sun was 25%
      less lumenous. The future faces a similar problem even before the red
      giant phase.

      What you are saying about variability only ADDS to my point. Namely that
      a chaotic system is inconsistant with our sun's behavior if climate is
      steady as it is. IOW, you have changing input into a chaotic system it
      is going to be even MORE crazy everywhere, when indeed there are tropical
      places, cold places and so forth. Modulation of chaotic inputs makes
      much more sense if what we are discovering is MORE varied input. It
      makes the modulation that much more critical.

      > <BR>
      > > For instance, recently a microbe was <BR>
      > > discovered that consumes (crude) oil and converts it to electrons.
      > <BR>
      > <BR>
      > Converts it to electrons???  I don't think you meant that the way
      > it<BR>
      > came across!<BR>


      I do need to re-look up this one. The notion I gather was that
      collectively these microbes acted like biological fuel cells. I will
      look this one up again.

      > <BR>
      > <BR>
      > <BR>
      > > Bush was an ENRON oil type prior to his presidency, because his
      > <BR>
      > > fiscal and ecology policies will have the same impact on the
      > world. <BR>
      > > To me, Bush is the most dangerous, or evil person on the planet,
      > <BR>
      > > whether intended or not--leadership should be addressing climate
      > <BR>
      > > square on like Nixon took on cancer. But Bush continues to put out
      > <BR>
      > > the fire with gasoline, continues to push road fascism in the face
      > of <BR>
      > > Hubbert's peak. Anyone who knows what I know and would not be <BR>
      > > political would be a FOOL. <BR>
      > <BR>
      > Oh come ON now!  More dangerous and evil than Bin Laden? 
      > More than<BR>
      > Hussein?  You may not agree with him, but I think this is taking
      > it<BR>
      > much too far.<BR>


      Bin Laden's and Husein's of the world exist but they do not have the
      ability to hurt so many people. Bush scares me way more then these two.
      And BTW, I was active in the military during desert 'shield', but I was
      lucky to be inactivated as a reserve during the 'storm' part of it. In
      my view Bush is wagging the dog bigtime and this is all about oil.


      > <BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > In November 1997 Three Gorge was diverted and the Pac NW following
      > a <BR>
      > > 500 year El Nino suffered a drought that has spred, IMHO, from the
      > NW <BR>
      > > down to the SW. Mongolia, proximate to the diversion from an EMF
      > <BR>
      > > standpoint, suffered a dust bowl not unlike our dust bowl
      > following <BR>
      > > changes to the Rio, Colorado, and Mississippi. <BR>
      > > <BR>
      > <BR>
      > Now I will back you up on this one, if maybe for different
      > reasons.  I<BR>
      > don't see how in the world they are going to handle the silt
      > problem<BR>
      > up at the high end of the resevoir, far away from the dam.  It
      > would<BR>
      > have to be a dredging project like the world has never seen, and I<BR>
      > don't think they can pull it off.  Add to that the fact that
      > the<BR>
      > unless the dam is maintained VERY well, it is a very bad accident<BR>
      > waiting to happen.  I fear for the people who are going to be<BR>
      > downstream from it.  China has already lost one big dam because
      > they<BR>
      > didn't maintain the floodgates and spillways properly, and a lot of<BR>
      > people died.  This one scares me.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > <BR>

      The dam has holes in it for the mud, but this does not address how sed
      and flow will alter the biological conditions in the oceans . . .
      > <BR>
      > </tt>
      >
      > <br>
      >
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    • David
      ... True, the Christ part of the faith has only been around since Jesus walked the Earth. However, the Jewissh roots go back much, much further. ... the ...
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 4, 2002
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        > You are not here writing about an earth 7,000 years old. The Christian
        > faith is much younger than this. Some find this a difficult thing to
        > resolve. In the end, I am probably more of a Kirkagaurdian Christian--
        > but, you know, if you meet Jesus 2,000 years ago and weren't a wine
        > drinker, more of a beer drinker like me, you may not have gone to the
        > same bars . . .

        True, the "Christ" part of the faith has only been around since Jesus
        walked the Earth. However, the Jewissh roots go back much, much further.


        > I am not familiar w/ theories of shorter term variability other then
        the
        > one related to the sun's EMF.
        >
        > However, Sagan's famous essay discussion centers around an early,
        cooler
        > sun over huge timescales. As you may know, that was Sagan's field.
        > Anyway, he talked about how on billion year timescales the sun was 25%
        > less lumenous. The future faces a similar problem even before the red
        > giant phase.
        >
        > What you are saying about variability only ADDS to my point. Namely
        that
        > a chaotic system is inconsistant with our sun's behavior if climate is
        > steady as it is. IOW, you have changing input into a chaotic system it
        > is going to be even MORE crazy everywhere, when indeed there are
        tropical
        > places, cold places and so forth. Modulation of chaotic inputs makes
        > much more sense if what we are discovering is MORE varied input. It
        > makes the modulation that much more critical.

        Climate may be relatively steady now, but history has shown it has
        been subject to some very wide variations. Antarctica was once a
        forest! One need only go back a few thousand years to fine 1/3 of the
        globe covered with ice. It wouldn't surprise me that the sun may have
        been significantly less luminous in its early life.
        >
        > > <BR>
        > > > For instance, recently a microbe was <BR>
        > > > discovered that consumes (crude) oil and converts it to
        electrons.
        > > <BR>
        > > <BR>
        > > Converts it to electrons???  I don't think you meant that the way
        > > it<BR>
        > > came across!<BR>
        >
        >
        > I do need to re-look up this one. The notion I gather was that
        > collectively these microbes acted like biological fuel cells. I will
        > look this one up again.

        Ahhh, now that makes more sense! What you're saying is that the
        chemical reaction that the bacteria use to digest the oil generares an
        electrical current. Now that I could believe.


        > Bin Laden's and Husein's of the world exist but they do not have the
        > ability to hurt so many people. Bush scares me way more then these
        two.
        > And BTW, I was active in the military during desert 'shield', but I was
        > lucky to be inactivated as a reserve during the 'storm' part of it. In
        > my view Bush is wagging the dog bigtime and this is all about oil.
        >

        Allright, I'll give you that. It MAY be at least partly about oil.
        The fact is that our nation is very dependent upon oil, be it right or
        wrong. Our economy, and many, many jobs, depend upon the free flow of
        oil. Take that away, and our nation is in big trouble.


        > The dam has holes in it for the mud, but this does not address how sed
        > and flow will alter the biological conditions in the oceans . . .

        The problem, however, is that much of the silt will begin to settle
        out far upstream from the dam, and never make it down that far. The
        top end of the resevoir could become comepletely choked off with it if
        it isn't removed somehow.
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