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Re: He passed.

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  • David
    ... Boy do I know how you feel. Somehow, no matter how long you have to prepare for something like that, it always seems like you aren t quite prepared for it
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 3, 2002
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      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "Mike Doran" <mike@u...> wrote:
      > My grandmother had just left the hospital with my mother and sisters
      > and was arriving home with us when the hospital's message came and
      > gave us the news of his passing. My father and her hugging in grief
      > was just about all I could take and while I was holding it together
      > in my greif I admit sobbing uncontrolbably for some time seeing them
      > in the pain of his passing.
      >

      Boy do I know how you feel. Somehow, no matter how long you have to
      prepare for something like that, it always seems like you aren't quite
      prepared for it when it happens.

      > Grandfather was the oldest of nine children, and survived all his
      > brothers and sisters--by 5 years. He survived the Battle of the
      > Bulge. He survived everyone except his wife of 71 years--who herself
      > was born in 1908.
      >

      He sounds like an incredible man, who lead a very full and rewarding
      life. You and your family have my sincere condolences.


      >
      > My brother, who is educated as a biologist, was more cynical and was
      > stuck on the uncertainty presented with all of the variables that
      > impact on climate, from humidity to the sun . . . I tried to explain
      > to him how powerful the postulation of modulation is in terms of its
      > testability and then how emperical the genetic data was on symbiotic
      > relationships shown, for instance, with Archae and that modulation
      > obviates the uncertainty arguement made by chaos idiots. Arguing
      > global change from this perspective is like arguing that your body
      > having a fever is not a symptom of health

      Well, in a way, your brother does have a point. There ARE many
      variables that impact climate, only some of which man has an
      understing of. It is a tremendously dynamic, fluid process.

      >
      > I think my brother considers me a little crazy and that I should
      > leave this hobby of climate change alone and stick to the practice of
      > law.

      You're a lawyer? Cool! I didn't know that!



      > His one book is on quatum selection and I
      > learned about it over at the creation/evolution thread. Anyway, it
      > discusses how evolution has reacted to selective pressures on very
      > small, quantum scales, that over geo time have significance in the
      > gene expression. So this is the other end of the spectrum of what I
      > am talking about, and his work is no less controversial for those in
      > the biological sciences who view selection as from processes of
      > random mutations. He suggests a tie, for instance, between quatum
      > states and the way that the DNA might more actively mutate with a
      > feedback involved that varies probabilities of mutation given
      > conditions, and this is way outside of the accepted view of things
      > that mutations are random. Likewise, Gaia makes a comment on the
      > selective pressures themselves.

      Quantum mechanics and the changing of genes? Now there's a link I
      hadn't heard about before, but it does sound very interesting.

      > And I can almost see an atmospheric specialist like
      > Christy, who doubles as a Christain minister, turning different
      > colors in rage over this discussion, and of course the typical
      > Christain prone to ranking on me--calling me a earth worshipper--
      > another golden calf. Christains are taught from an early age, or
      > should I say indoctrinated, that there are horrible sects, from witch
      > craft to Catholics, who will send you to hell--so I can only imagine
      > that this global evolutionary science named after the greek goddess
      > who dealt with chaos would not sit well with those who try to carry
      > the torch of science and Christainity at the same time.

      I think that perhaps you're unfairly stereotyping Christians. I am a
      Born-Again Christian, and I am not ashamed of that, nor do I try to
      hide it. I suppose I do, however, match your description of being a
      devotee of science while also being a Christian.

      >
      > But carrying many torches is a badge of the contradictions that occur
      > as it means to be human.

      On the contrary, I don't see it as a contradiction at all. In fact, I
      think they compliment each other very nicely.

      >
      > But over huge timescales there is more. The very character of the
      > siesmic and erosion processes was different. CO2 levels were greater,
      > say, in the Carbonferious and CO2 forms carbonic acid, which would
      > increase weathering rates. Oceans warmer and shallow which would
      > allow the hydrates to be more EMF proximate and the calcium
      > carbanate's impact to be less of a EMF sink. Upwelling events would
      > have differed. This would present altogether much different and
      > greater EMF feedbacks of heat retaining cirrus in the CONTEXT OF A
      > LESS LUMENOUS SUN. Hence, not only is Carl Sagan's mystery of a less
      > lumenous sun solved, but this certainly addresses the question of
      > whether globally climate emperically behaves in a steady state or
      > not.

      I'm not familiar with the Carl Sagan theory you mentioned, but it
      would be a mistake to believe that our sun's output has remained
      completely constant throughout its life. Extensive observations have
      shown that the energy output of even stable stars is not constant, but
      is subject to some striking variations.

      > For instance, recently a microbe was
      > discovered that consumes (crude) oil and converts it to electrons.

      Converts it to electrons??? I don't think you meant that the way it
      came across!



      > Bush was an ENRON oil type prior to his presidency, because his
      > fiscal and ecology policies will have the same impact on the world.
      > To me, Bush is the most dangerous, or evil person on the planet,
      > whether intended or not--leadership should be addressing climate
      > square on like Nixon took on cancer. But Bush continues to put out
      > the fire with gasoline, continues to push road fascism in the face of
      > Hubbert's peak. Anyone who knows what I know and would not be
      > political would be a FOOL.

      Oh come ON now! More dangerous and evil than Bin Laden? More than
      Hussein? You may not agree with him, but I think this is taking it
      much too far.

      >
      > In November 1997 Three Gorge was diverted and the Pac NW following a
      > 500 year El Nino suffered a drought that has spred, IMHO, from the NW
      > down to the SW. Mongolia, proximate to the diversion from an EMF
      > standpoint, suffered a dust bowl not unlike our dust bowl following
      > changes to the Rio, Colorado, and Mississippi.
      >

      Now I will back you up on this one, if maybe for different reasons. I
      don't see how in the world they are going to handle the silt problem
      up at the high end of the resevoir, far away from the dam. It would
      have to be a dredging project like the world has never seen, and I
      don't think they can pull it off. Add to that the fact that the
      unless the dam is maintained VERY well, it is a very bad accident
      waiting to happen. I fear for the people who are going to be
      downstream from it. China has already lost one big dam because they
      didn't maintain the floodgates and spillways properly, and a lot of
      people died. This one scares me.
    • mike
      ... You are not here writing about an earth 7,000 years old. The Christian faith is much younger than this. Some find this a difficult thing to resolve. In
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 3, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        > <BR>
        > > His one book is on quatum selection and I <BR>
        > > learned about it over at the creation/evolution thread. Anyway, it
        > <BR>
        > > discusses how evolution has reacted to selective pressures on very
        > <BR>
        > > small, quantum scales, that over geo time have significance in the
        > <BR>
        > > gene expression. So this is the other end of the spectrum of what
        > I <BR>
        > > am talking about, and his work is no less controversial for those
        > in <BR>
        > > the biological sciences who view selection as from processes of
        > <BR>
        > > random mutations. He suggests a tie, for instance, between quatum
        > <BR>
        > > states and the way that the DNA might more actively mutate with a
        > <BR>
        > > feedback involved that varies probabilities of mutation given <BR>
        > > conditions, and this is way outside of the accepted view of things
        > <BR>
        > > that mutations are random. Likewise, Gaia makes a comment on the
        > <BR>
        > > selective pressures themselves. <BR>
        > <BR>
        > Quantum mechanics and the changing of genes?  Now there's a link
        > I<BR>
        > hadn't heard about before, but it does sound very interesting.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > >  And I can almost see an atmospheric specialist like <BR>
        > > Christy, who doubles as a Christain minister, turning different
        > <BR>
        > > colors in rage over this discussion, and of course the typical
        > <BR>
        > > Christain prone to ranking on me--calling me a earth
        > worshipper--<BR>
        > > another golden calf. Christains are taught from an early age, or
        > <BR>
        > > should I say indoctrinated, that there are horrible sects, from
        > witch <BR>
        > > craft to Catholics, who will send you to hell--so I can only
        > imagine <BR>
        > > that this global evolutionary science named after the greek
        > goddess <BR>
        > > who dealt with chaos would not sit well with those who try to
        > carry <BR>
        > > the torch of science and Christainity at the same time. <BR>
        > <BR>
        > I think that perhaps you're unfairly stereotyping Christians.  I
        > am a<BR>
        > Born-Again Christian, and I am not ashamed of that, nor do I try to<BR>
        > hide it.  I suppose I do, however, match your description of being
        > a<BR>
        > devotee of science while also being a Christian. <BR>

        You are not here writing about an earth 7,000 years old. The Christian
        faith is much younger than this. Some find this a difficult thing to
        resolve. In the end, I am probably more of a Kirkagaurdian Christian--
        but, you know, if you meet Jesus 2,000 years ago and weren't a wine
        drinker, more of a beer drinker like me, you may not have gone to the
        same bars . . .

        > > But over huge timescales there is more. The very character of the
        > <BR>
        > > siesmic and erosion processes was different. CO2 levels were
        > greater, <BR>
        > > say, in the Carbonferious and CO2 forms carbonic acid, which would
        > <BR>
        > > increase weathering rates. Oceans warmer and shallow which would
        > <BR>
        > > allow the hydrates to be more EMF proximate and the calcium <BR>
        > > carbanate's impact to be less of a EMF sink. Upwelling events
        > would <BR>
        > > have differed. This would present altogether much different and
        > <BR>
        > > greater EMF feedbacks of heat retaining cirrus in the CONTEXT OF A
        > <BR>
        > > LESS LUMENOUS SUN. Hence, not only is Carl Sagan's mystery of a
        > less <BR>
        > > lumenous sun solved, but this certainly addresses the question of
        > <BR>
        > > whether globally climate emperically behaves in a steady state or
        > <BR>
        > > not. <BR>
        > <BR>
        > I'm not familiar with the Carl Sagan theory you mentioned, but it<BR>
        > would be a mistake to believe that our sun's output has remained<BR>
        > completely constant throughout its life.  Extensive observations
        > have<BR>
        > shown that the energy output of even stable stars is not constant,
        > but<BR>
        > is subject to some striking variations.<BR>

        I am not familiar w/ theories of shorter term variability other then the
        one related to the sun's EMF.

        However, Sagan's famous essay discussion centers around an early, cooler
        sun over huge timescales. As you may know, that was Sagan's field.
        Anyway, he talked about how on billion year timescales the sun was 25%
        less lumenous. The future faces a similar problem even before the red
        giant phase.

        What you are saying about variability only ADDS to my point. Namely that
        a chaotic system is inconsistant with our sun's behavior if climate is
        steady as it is. IOW, you have changing input into a chaotic system it
        is going to be even MORE crazy everywhere, when indeed there are tropical
        places, cold places and so forth. Modulation of chaotic inputs makes
        much more sense if what we are discovering is MORE varied input. It
        makes the modulation that much more critical.

        > <BR>
        > > For instance, recently a microbe was <BR>
        > > discovered that consumes (crude) oil and converts it to electrons.
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > Converts it to electrons???  I don't think you meant that the way
        > it<BR>
        > came across!<BR>


        I do need to re-look up this one. The notion I gather was that
        collectively these microbes acted like biological fuel cells. I will
        look this one up again.

        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > > Bush was an ENRON oil type prior to his presidency, because his
        > <BR>
        > > fiscal and ecology policies will have the same impact on the
        > world. <BR>
        > > To me, Bush is the most dangerous, or evil person on the planet,
        > <BR>
        > > whether intended or not--leadership should be addressing climate
        > <BR>
        > > square on like Nixon took on cancer. But Bush continues to put out
        > <BR>
        > > the fire with gasoline, continues to push road fascism in the face
        > of <BR>
        > > Hubbert's peak. Anyone who knows what I know and would not be <BR>
        > > political would be a FOOL. <BR>
        > <BR>
        > Oh come ON now!  More dangerous and evil than Bin Laden? 
        > More than<BR>
        > Hussein?  You may not agree with him, but I think this is taking
        > it<BR>
        > much too far.<BR>


        Bin Laden's and Husein's of the world exist but they do not have the
        ability to hurt so many people. Bush scares me way more then these two.
        And BTW, I was active in the military during desert 'shield', but I was
        lucky to be inactivated as a reserve during the 'storm' part of it. In
        my view Bush is wagging the dog bigtime and this is all about oil.


        > <BR>
        > > <BR>
        > > In November 1997 Three Gorge was diverted and the Pac NW following
        > a <BR>
        > > 500 year El Nino suffered a drought that has spred, IMHO, from the
        > NW <BR>
        > > down to the SW. Mongolia, proximate to the diversion from an EMF
        > <BR>
        > > standpoint, suffered a dust bowl not unlike our dust bowl
        > following <BR>
        > > changes to the Rio, Colorado, and Mississippi. <BR>
        > > <BR>
        > <BR>
        > Now I will back you up on this one, if maybe for different
        > reasons.  I<BR>
        > don't see how in the world they are going to handle the silt
        > problem<BR>
        > up at the high end of the resevoir, far away from the dam.  It
        > would<BR>
        > have to be a dredging project like the world has never seen, and I<BR>
        > don't think they can pull it off.  Add to that the fact that
        > the<BR>
        > unless the dam is maintained VERY well, it is a very bad accident<BR>
        > waiting to happen.  I fear for the people who are going to be<BR>
        > downstream from it.  China has already lost one big dam because
        > they<BR>
        > didn't maintain the floodgates and spillways properly, and a lot of<BR>
        > people died.  This one scares me.<BR>
        > <BR>
        > <BR>

        The dam has holes in it for the mud, but this does not address how sed
        and flow will alter the biological conditions in the oceans . . .
        > <BR>
        > </tt>
        >
        > <br>
        >
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      • David
        ... True, the Christ part of the faith has only been around since Jesus walked the Earth. However, the Jewissh roots go back much, much further. ... the ...
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 4, 2002
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          > You are not here writing about an earth 7,000 years old. The Christian
          > faith is much younger than this. Some find this a difficult thing to
          > resolve. In the end, I am probably more of a Kirkagaurdian Christian--
          > but, you know, if you meet Jesus 2,000 years ago and weren't a wine
          > drinker, more of a beer drinker like me, you may not have gone to the
          > same bars . . .

          True, the "Christ" part of the faith has only been around since Jesus
          walked the Earth. However, the Jewissh roots go back much, much further.


          > I am not familiar w/ theories of shorter term variability other then
          the
          > one related to the sun's EMF.
          >
          > However, Sagan's famous essay discussion centers around an early,
          cooler
          > sun over huge timescales. As you may know, that was Sagan's field.
          > Anyway, he talked about how on billion year timescales the sun was 25%
          > less lumenous. The future faces a similar problem even before the red
          > giant phase.
          >
          > What you are saying about variability only ADDS to my point. Namely
          that
          > a chaotic system is inconsistant with our sun's behavior if climate is
          > steady as it is. IOW, you have changing input into a chaotic system it
          > is going to be even MORE crazy everywhere, when indeed there are
          tropical
          > places, cold places and so forth. Modulation of chaotic inputs makes
          > much more sense if what we are discovering is MORE varied input. It
          > makes the modulation that much more critical.

          Climate may be relatively steady now, but history has shown it has
          been subject to some very wide variations. Antarctica was once a
          forest! One need only go back a few thousand years to fine 1/3 of the
          globe covered with ice. It wouldn't surprise me that the sun may have
          been significantly less luminous in its early life.
          >
          > > <BR>
          > > > For instance, recently a microbe was <BR>
          > > > discovered that consumes (crude) oil and converts it to
          electrons.
          > > <BR>
          > > <BR>
          > > Converts it to electrons???  I don't think you meant that the way
          > > it<BR>
          > > came across!<BR>
          >
          >
          > I do need to re-look up this one. The notion I gather was that
          > collectively these microbes acted like biological fuel cells. I will
          > look this one up again.

          Ahhh, now that makes more sense! What you're saying is that the
          chemical reaction that the bacteria use to digest the oil generares an
          electrical current. Now that I could believe.


          > Bin Laden's and Husein's of the world exist but they do not have the
          > ability to hurt so many people. Bush scares me way more then these
          two.
          > And BTW, I was active in the military during desert 'shield', but I was
          > lucky to be inactivated as a reserve during the 'storm' part of it. In
          > my view Bush is wagging the dog bigtime and this is all about oil.
          >

          Allright, I'll give you that. It MAY be at least partly about oil.
          The fact is that our nation is very dependent upon oil, be it right or
          wrong. Our economy, and many, many jobs, depend upon the free flow of
          oil. Take that away, and our nation is in big trouble.


          > The dam has holes in it for the mud, but this does not address how sed
          > and flow will alter the biological conditions in the oceans . . .

          The problem, however, is that much of the silt will begin to settle
          out far upstream from the dam, and never make it down that far. The
          top end of the resevoir could become comepletely choked off with it if
          it isn't removed somehow.
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