Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Fred--you said it--it is not that simple

Expand Messages
  • fredwx
    All clouds block the escape of infrared radiation. Net warming of air below cirrus clouds would tend to make the air more stable, not less. Cirrus clouds are
    Message 1 of 32 , Oct 19, 2002
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      All clouds block the escape of infrared radiation. Net warming of air
      below cirrus clouds would tend to make the air more stable, not less.

      Cirrus clouds are not very effective at blocking sunlight so most of
      the solar energy still reaches the ground allowing heating at low
      levels to occur and thus rising air (as in fair weather). However, as
      that air rises it now will be moving into an environment that is not
      as cold at higher levels than without the cirrus cover. (Cirrus
      blocking infrared radiation as you said allowing the air below the
      clouds to warm). I would submit that this might tend to inhibit
      vertical motion, not enhance it.







      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "Mike Doran" <mike@u...> wrote:
      > Cirrus trap infra red radiation. Underneath that means warming
      air,
      > a rising air mass and to the surface a low.
      >
      > Fair weather allows heat easily to escape to space. Without the
      > updraft, gravity pulls the air down, with no rising vacuum impact
      > high pressures form.
      >
      > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > <<The issue here is cirrus clouds, because they vary upper
      > > atmospheric heat values bigtime and create movements of that air,
      > or
      > > instability.>>
      > >
      > > Just how do the cirrus clouds vary upper atmospheric heat values
      > big
      > > time or create movements of air or instability?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "Mike Doran" <mike@u...> wrote:
      > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "David" <b1blancer1@e...> wrote:
      > > > > Well said, Fred. To make a thunderstorm, you need three
      > things :
      > > > > heat, moisture, and an unstable atmosphere.
      > > >
      > > > The issue here is cirrus clouds, because they vary upper
      > > atmospheric
      > > > heat values bigtime and create movements of that air, or
      > > instability.
      > > >
      > > > Doran waves travel much faster then a frontal system. They
      > travel
      > > > faster then 'heat'.
      > > >
      > > > A thunderstorm in Texas has EMF implications for one in Iowa,
      and
      > > > hence convective implications. Therefore the daily heating and
      > > > cooling has timing implication feedbacks, re-enforcing time of
      > day
      > > > activity.
      > > >
      > > > But if a hurricane landfalls during the night, the Doran waves
      > and
      > > > rain pay little attention to what the ionsphere is doing,
      rising
      > or
      > > > contracting.
      > > >
      > > > We see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear. The
      trick
      > > is
      > > > to be able to listen and observe without losing your state of
      > mind.
    • Mike Doran
      I am no expert on the subject. However I have read the Lindzen, Fu and Hartmann papers and think I know enough to apply EMFs to the cloud dynamics via cirrus
      Message 32 of 32 , Oct 19, 2002
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        I am no expert on the subject. However I have read the Lindzen, Fu
        and Hartmann papers and think I know enough to apply EMFs to the
        cloud dynamics via cirrus IR forcings in a meaningful manner.

        Even if high clouds lead to relative heat stability heat loss leads
        to cooling, more dense and falling air. RELATIVELY speaking, the
        contrasts create instability.

        --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > All clouds block the escape of infrared radiation. Net warming of
        air
        > below cirrus clouds would tend to make the air more stable, not
        less.
        >
        > Cirrus clouds are not very effective at blocking sunlight so most
        of
        > the solar energy still reaches the ground allowing heating at low
        > levels to occur and thus rising air (as in fair weather). However,
        as
        > that air rises it now will be moving into an environment that is
        not
        > as cold at higher levels than without the cirrus cover. (Cirrus
        > blocking infrared radiation as you said allowing the air below the
        > clouds to warm). I would submit that this might tend to inhibit
        > vertical motion, not enhance it.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "Mike Doran" <mike@u...> wrote:
        > > Cirrus trap infra red radiation. Underneath that means warming
        > air,
        > > a rising air mass and to the surface a low.
        > >
        > > Fair weather allows heat easily to escape to space. Without the
        > > updraft, gravity pulls the air down, with no rising vacuum impact
        > > high pressures form.
        > >
        > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > <<The issue here is cirrus clouds, because they vary upper
        > > > atmospheric heat values bigtime and create movements of that
        air,
        > > or
        > > > instability.>>
        > > >
        > > > Just how do the cirrus clouds vary upper atmospheric heat
        values
        > > big
        > > > time or create movements of air or instability?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "Mike Doran" <mike@u...> wrote:
        > > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "David" <b1blancer1@e...>
        wrote:
        > > > > > Well said, Fred. To make a thunderstorm, you need three
        > > things :
        > > > > > heat, moisture, and an unstable atmosphere.
        > > > >
        > > > > The issue here is cirrus clouds, because they vary upper
        > > > atmospheric
        > > > > heat values bigtime and create movements of that air, or
        > > > instability.
        > > > >
        > > > > Doran waves travel much faster then a frontal system. They
        > > travel
        > > > > faster then 'heat'.
        > > > >
        > > > > A thunderstorm in Texas has EMF implications for one in Iowa,
        > and
        > > > > hence convective implications. Therefore the daily heating
        and
        > > > > cooling has timing implication feedbacks, re-enforcing time
        of
        > > day
        > > > > activity.
        > > > >
        > > > > But if a hurricane landfalls during the night, the Doran
        waves
        > > and
        > > > > rain pay little attention to what the ionsphere is doing,
        > rising
        > > or
        > > > > contracting.
        > > > >
        > > > > We see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear. The
        > trick
        > > > is
        > > > > to be able to listen and observe without losing your state of
        > > mind.
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.