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Re: [Methane Hydrate Club] Re: Chris and GOM low--Doran wave ends threat to Florida

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  • foryeshua1@juno.com
    Fred, I used your name instead of Mike. Sorry! On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:16:07 -0700 foryeshua1@juno.com writes: On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:55:45 -0000 pawnfart
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 15, 2002
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      Fred, I used your name instead of Mike. Sorry!

      On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:16:07 -0700 foryeshua1@... writes:


      On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:55:45 -0000 "pawnfart" <mike@...> writes:
      Fred,

      That's a great question. It took me an hour to refind this damn link
      and I hope you appreciate this because I am busy right now and lot's
      of people are starting to ask questions. Understand it isn't all
      about induction by current and it can even be the absence of it
      because SSTs and biology underneath the oceans impact an EMF concept
      called impedance (Z), where EMF concepts like capacitance, resistance
      as well as induction come into play.

      Anyway, here is that damn ENSO link:

      http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/tao/

      What I want you to note is that there is a line of winds that go
      counter all the way to the terresphere and if that current is in
      general going N/S that wind can cause a counter EMF. This is some
      rough science!!

      +++++++++++++

      yourself?

      http://www.newage.com.au/ufo/haarp.html

      http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

      Tom Skinner talks about my background as a lawyer. I suppose it isn't
      Princeton, but I also had EMF training in the military. And secret
      clearances.

      I now am hesitating to respond to this question.

      But I am going to sound off anyway.

      Let's just say what I now suspect. I suspect that HAARP grew not from
      an idea that we could control weather on a battle field but that a
      nuke war would cause problems in the ionosphere that upset weather
      and climate, and so that it was designed as a way of dealing with the
      realities of a nuke war.

      The reason that HAARP probably isn't an effective way of modulating
      climate is the dominate EMF features involve huge areas and specific
      and moving targets. Building dams and putting huge quantities of CO2
      into the biosphere is the type of activity that starts to causes
      changes, not local pulses of EMF in Alaska.

      BTW, I note that there is a member of our yahoo group who calls
      himself Dr. Telsa--from Alaska. Telsa is a unit measure of EMF.
      I believe this is Tesla. I believe a Russian electric genius. Walter
      ++++++++++++++

      So, Fred, a tropical low passed Florida and became a depression along
      the EMF insulated Gulf Stream from hydrate activity. There is also a
      east to west movement of Gulf Stream winds and currents. The low
      dumped more rain on Florida and then has turned to a tropical
      depression. While it isn't a named TS as my first call--an early
      stalling and flooding TS to hit between the Mississippi delta and
      Florida--given the part "El Nino" SOI winds and the EMF/shearing wind
      conditions this brings, it wasn't too bad a call.

      http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/SeasonalClimateOutlook/SouthernOscil
      lationIndex/30DaySOIValues/

      Date Tahiti Darwin Daily** 30 day 90 day

      10-Jul-2002 1014.90 1013.60 2.10 -5.69 -8.68

      11-Jul-2002 1014.84 1013.10 4.80 -6.01 -8.59

      12-Jul-2002 1014.90 1012.75 7.30 -6.16 -8.47

      13-Jul-2002 1014.76 1013.10 4.30 -6.66 -8.43

      14-Jul-2002 1013.83 1013.05 -1.00 -7.94 -8.44

      15-Jul-2002 1012.88 1015.10 -19.50 -9.86 -8.66

      The SOI has gone back negative, now that Chris has moved to colder
      waters. What is interesting is how Chris sent a Doran wave that
      reduced the cirrus cover over the central GOM as the first tropical
      low of the season was forming, and how it formed in the first place,
      with a localized shoreline thunderstorms from the east and west of
      the GOM--that cause a vacuum effect in the middle--even as the middle
      was fair weather and proton receptive, and probably winds from west
      to east inducting surface ocean currents against cirrus. Then it went
      east toward Florida in a disorganized manner, very elongated,
      especially after Chris zapped it (convection over the Yukaton stole
      This sounds like a description of what happens when a hurricane goes
      over an island. It is zapped by lightening, and clouds form over it like
      a seven layer cake in some cases, and it looses a lot of rain. This is
      what happens to a hurricane when it strikes land. Land has the
      conductive ability to deliver great strikes of electricity through the
      conductive hurricane moisture to its jet streams above it. These strikes
      do not happen over oceans because I believe salt water conducts charges
      so well that they cannot build up in any one place to form a striking
      charge.


      the electrons in the ionosphere over the low), and this was part of a
      Doran wave that can be traced all the way to the counter current in
      the most tropical waters off the coast of Peru . . . to Chris, to the
      Yukaton, and then to a ULL over Iowa and a line of thunderstorms
      south of that ULL, with a broken front further south of the line
      directly south of the ULL and north of the GOM warm core surface low.
      The strike link was really cool to watch, for those who were
      following this discussion. And for you Dr. Walt, that is what I have
      time for--descriptions in real time from the strike links and so
      forth of how EMF move from fair weather and convection, especially in
      the ionosphere, and cause forcings on ambient winds.
      Thanks Fred, I hate to admit that I am having trouble seeing things
      happen as you describe them. Not because they may not be doing it, but
      because I don't know the terms you are using well enough to form concepts
      of their existence that I can follow. Like the zapping you describe, I
      can find a pattern which I have seen in other places and it makes sense.
      It occurs to me that much of the communication we try to put out is like
      that. The people that could agree or not agree can't follow well enough
      to have an informed opinion. I can easily imagine that you may grow
      tired of me saying I am ignorant of your concepts. I am sympathetic, and
      you may choose to not translate what you are saying into word pictures
      that I can easily see. I will keep on trying, perhaps I will pick up
      through osmosis enough to start doing a better job of seeing. Perhaps
      even a few more words defining terms along the way would be sufficient to
      let me see. Anyway, thanks for so far putting up with me. Dr. Walter

      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > The equatorial counter current lies between 5-10 deg north latitude
      > while the El Nino's warmest anomalies lie over the equator.
      >
      > http://www.acl.lanl.gov/GrandChal/GCM/currents.html
      >
      > The cold anomaly off Peru is occuring in currents that set from the
      > south-southeast towards the northwest then west-northwest, not west
      > to east as you said so I am confused here.
      >
      >
      http://psbsgi1.nesdis.noaa.gov:8080/PSB/EPS/SST/data/anomnight.7.13.20
      > 02.gif
      >
      > Fred
      >
      >
      > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
      > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > First, I am still uncertain what a Doran wave is.
      > >
      > > It has to do mostly with ion movements in the ionosphere, as
      driven
      > > by dry areas w/ fair weather positive to ground EMF and
      convection
      > > driven neg to ground. If there is a burst of convective activity
      > in
      > > one area it will ripple out EMF wise.
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Here in Lutz (Tampa Bay area) we have over 2 inches of rain
      from
      > > that
      > > > tropical disturbance but little wind.
      > >
      > > Little surface wind. Stallers and flooders w/ cirrus going
      strong.
      > >
      > > As far as the currents off
      > > > Peru, I believe they are more south to north than east to west.
      > >
      > > I agree, but then it goes west and it is coming from the west to
      > east
      > > along the Equatorial. So ambiant winds can may it go either way--
      > and
      > > it hence becomes sensitive to flux and cummulated flux that cause
      > > anomalies like this. Those warm anomalies mean more east to west
      > > winds.
      > >
      > >
      > > > Fred
      > > >
      > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
      > > > > Below is a from another bb--a conversation between John
      Lerch,
      > a
      > > > > physicist, and myself, this morning, about induction and
      > > hurricanes:
      > > > >
      > > > > Again,
      > > > >
      > > > > I agree w/ you that if you where ONLY talking about the
      earth's
      > > EMF
      > > > > the induction produces a small magnetic field.
      > > > >
      > > > > However, we are NOT. We are talking about large local sub
      > fields
      > > > > from strikes and so forth.
      > > > >
      > > > > Further, there are currents. Example. The Doran wave coming
      > > from
      > > > > the cold anomaly off the coast of Peru, where fair weather
      > > protons
      > > > > coming from the ionosphere are going to meet higher impedance
      > (Z)
      > > > > from the colder SSTS COMBINED w/ the wind and current
      direction
      > > > > moving west to east. Then there is the induction of current
      > from
      > > > > southeast to northwest along the South Mexican border where
      > there
      > > > are
      > > > > warm anomalies. A Doran wave culminates in a named tropical
      > > storm,
      > > > > which itself has strong southeast to northeast winds right
      now
      > as
      > > > we
      > > > > discuss this.
      > > > >
      > > > > Last night on TWC there was a five hour loop of sat pictures
      > that
      > > > > included this new E. Pac storm and a surface low in the GOM.
      > > What
      > > > > happened as the E. Pac storm became a named storm, with
      > > convection
      > > > > flaring up near the low, a HUGE Doran wave moved charges in
      the
      > > > whole
      > > > > region. There was a huge area of convection flare up over
      the
      > > > > Yukatan and then that ripped electrons from the low over the
      > > GOM.
      > > > > Almost instantaniously, and you could see it from the loops,
      > > > > convection during the warmest part of the day over a low over
      > > warm
      > > > > SSTs in the GOM stopped. This, again, is explained by loss
      of
      > > > cirrus
      > > > > enhancement and the IR/reflection balances and huge GHG
      > > > differentials
      > > > > that result as the water in the air changes in character.
      > > > >
      > > > > To give you an idea how critical this is to ambiant air
      > > movements,
      > > > > one model called the GDFL had called for this tropical storm
      to
      > > > high
      > > > > the panhandle of Florida as a CAT 3 storm--72 hours from the
      > > > > forecast--which was 72 hours ago. This is a good example of
      > how
      > > > the
      > > > > EMF is THE forcing . . .
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > From: John Lerch <jlerch1@c...>
      > > > > To: Debate <Debate@l...>
      > > > > Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:13:59 -0500
      > > > > Subject: Re: EMFs and ENSO/JAL
      > > > >
      > > > > > Mike
      > > > > > You refer to hurricanes as EMF inducing. Of course
      > > > > > there is induction. The only thing you have no
      > > > > > evidence to support is the notion that the motion of
      > > > > > oceanic currents thru the earth's magnetic field
      > > > > > induces a charge separation that continues for some
      > > > > > substantial period of time before the electrostatic
      > > > > > attraction pulls those charges back and before any such
      > > > > > motion perpendicular to the oceanic current causes the
      > > > > > electrical current to be deflected once again. IOW not
      > > > > > only does the electrostatic attraction immediately stop
      > > > > > the charge separation but any separation that does
      > > > > > start immediately goes into an orbital cicular motion
      > > > > > (of diameter about 1/10000 the diameter of an atom as I
      > > > > > showed several posts ago) perpendicular to the magnetic
      > > > > > field, effectively ending the charge separation. JAL
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      > > > > _



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    • foryeshua1@juno.com
      Pawn, The wire analogy, reminds me of the under sea currents that were described as taking down the oil drilling tower off New England, that coincided with a
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 18, 2002
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        Pawn, The wire analogy, reminds me of the under sea currents that were
        described as taking down the oil drilling tower off New England, that
        coincided with a destructive NorEaster in timing. I can buy the
        occurrence of electric flows actually taking their paths through fast
        flowing undersea rivers. That place somewhere between Greenland and
        England where the water is strangely rough that has been photographed
        from the air, could be the exit point of this current, at its North end
        of its flow. It is like an electric current to choose the best
        conductance available to it. Escaping at a Northern point into the air,
        or to be attracted by an increased conductance point at the peak of a
        Perigy Syzygy tide in a NorEaster in New England. Why couldn't the
        seemingly minute charges of certain areas due to the kinds of things you
        are referring to be responded to by such flows.
        If such currents were connected by any sort of residual flow from
        whatever steady currents exist, if nothing else might they be induced
        from the movement of the rotation of the earth to cause primary flow like
        you make a nail a magnet by winding a wire around it? At any rate if such
        currents existed would they not heat up their paths with their electrical
        conductance, and possibly pass through deep oceans that might be colder
        over and around them? Like the magma of the earth is hotter than its
        crust, possibly because of electrical phenomena there. Could such a river
        steal heat from one area by taking it through its flow to a destination
        powered and guided by conductance? Could a "cold" place be there because
        of the affects of these kinds of charge exchanges?
        Pawn, I can conceive of the possibility that my reasonings are
        more distractive than useful to what you are trying to describe. If you
        want me to go away please just tell me. You will not be the first to
        have done so. One of your first reasonings was that you thought your
        group might be stimulated or helped in some way. If I am becoming too
        much, with too little I would appreciate truth. Walter.

        On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:37:20 -0000 "pawnfart" <mike@...> writes:
        Again, here is the link discussed.

        http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/tao/

        How about a different analogy. A wire.

        A wire is thin looking yet can carry a huge amount of current. That
        distortion of winds, even a lack of winds in the context of winds,
        along that small path is very EMF significant, because these are the
        warmest waters and the impedance (Z) through those waters would be
        reduced.

        Functionally, the difference between an El Nino and this is you have
        a EMF wave generator as opposed to a very broad area where EMF from
        ocean up would be negitive. The later is going to result in cirrus
        enhancement worldwide, the former to storm pulses in the region that
        feedback cooling (the storms take heat energy from SSTs) to the mid
        tropics.

        BUT, from the perspective of EMF trying to go from the W. Pac to the
        E. Pac, if there is an El Nino, a charge accumulation is going to
        have a really difficult time moving from the West if there isn't that
        "wire" with currents, or lack of currents, going against it. That is
        because the movement against its direction increases impedance AND
        creates a situation where if there is a current it gets directed
        upwards. OTOH, if it exists and inducts in no particular direction
        or downwards with a vector, the current will continue along the
        equator. Downward vectors, understand, will have to deal with a cold
        ocean that is not conductive, so a certain about of that induction
        down really means charges just accumulate, I suspect accumulate
        chemically.

        This is another reason why CO2 uptake differs during ENSO. Because
        of these EMF implications.

        That "sliver" is very critical. It may not appear on certain days.
        Right now we are SOI neg so it might not appear--but hey, that's why
        there are no tropical storms brewing in the Atlantic!

        --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > I don't see the "the counter wind--that slight sliver of going the
        > other way." All the cold SST's show a North West heading current.
        > Fred
        >
        >
        > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "mike" <mike@u...> wrote:
        > > Oh, I agree with that. If you have cold anomalies, you can see
        how
        > there
        > > would be less induction and hence world wide colder temperatures
        > from
        > > less EMF neg. If it is warm the whole region cooks as electrons
        > explode
        > > to the ionosphere.
        > >
        > > But what I am talking about is the counter wind--that slight
        sliver
        > of
        > > going the other way. You see it as less of vector going west to
        > east as
        > > you see a LACK of vector going west.
        > >
        > > I think that sliver is important from an EMF standpoint to make a
        > place
        > > for protons from fair weather to make Doran waves. Get it?
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: fredwx <no_reply@y...>
        > > To: methanehydrateclub@y...
        > > Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:25:21 -0000
        > > Subject: [Methane Hydrate Club] Re: Chris and GOM low--Doran wave
        > ends
        > > threat to Florida
        > >
        > > > <html><body>
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > <tt>
        > > > What I saw in that link [ http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/tao/ ] is
        > that the
        > > winds over the western section <BR>
        > > > (where the coldest SST's are off Peru) roughly the same as the
        > <BR>
        > > > surface ocean currents (from the SE towards the NW)<BR>
        > > > <BR>
        > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...>
        > > > wrote:<BR>
        > > > > Fred, <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > That's a great question. It took me an hour to refind this
        > > > damn <BR>
        > > > link <BR>
        > > > > and I hope you appreciate this because I am busy right now and
        > > > <BR>
        > > > lot's <BR>
        > > > > of people are starting to ask questions. Understand it isn't
        > > > all <BR>
        > > > > about induction by current and it can even be the absence of
        it
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > because SSTs and biology underneath the oceans impact an EMF
        > <BR>
        > > > concept <BR>
        > > > > called impedence (Z), where EMF concepts like capacitance,
        <BR>
        > > > resistance <BR>
        > > > > as well as induction come into play.<BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > Anyway, here is that damn ENSO link:<BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > <a
        > > >
        >
        href="http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/tao/">http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/tao/</a>
        > <
        > > > BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > What I want you to note is that there is a line of winds that
        go
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > counter all the way to the terresphere and if that current is
        in
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > general going N/S that wind can cause a counter EMF. This is
        > > > some <BR>
        > > > > rough science!!<BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > +++++++++++++<BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > yourself? <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > <a
        > > >
        >
        href="http://www.newage.com.au/ufo/haarp.html">http://www.newage.com.a
        > u
        > > > /ufo/haarp.html</a> <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > <a
        > > >
        > href="http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/">http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/</a>
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > Tom Skinner talks about my background as a lawyer. I suppose
        it
        > > > <BR>
        > > > isn't <BR>
        > > > > Princeton, but I also had EMF training in the military. And
        > secret
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > clearances. <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > I now am hesitating to respond to this question. <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > But I am going to sound off anyway. <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > Let's just say what I now suspect. I suspect that HAARP grew
        not
        > > > <BR>
        > > > from <BR>
        > > > > an idea that we could control weather on a battle field but
        > that a
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > nuke war would cause problems in the ionosphere that upset
        > weather
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > and climate, and so that it was designed as a way of dealing
        > with
        > > > <BR>
        > > > the <BR>
        > > > > realities of a nuke war. <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > The reason that HAARP probably isn't an effective way of
        > > > modulating <BR>
        > > > > climate is the dominate EMF features involve huge areas and
        <BR>
        > > > specific <BR>
        > > > > and moving targets. Building dams and putting huge quantities
        of
        > > > <BR>
        > > > CO2 <BR>
        > > > > into the biosphere is the type of activity that starts to
        causes
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > changes, not local pulses of EMF in Alaska. <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > BTW, I note that there is a member of our yahoo group who
        calls
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > himself Dr. Telsa--from Alaska. Telsa is a unit measure of
        EMF.
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > ++++++++++++++ <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > So, Fred, a tropical low passed Florida and became a
        depression
        > > > <BR>
        > > > along <BR>
        > > > > the EMF insulated Gulf Stream from hydrate activity. There is
        > also
        > > > <BR>
        > > > a <BR>
        > > > > east to west movement of Gulf Stream winds and currents. The
        low
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > dumped more rain on Florida and then has turned to a tropical
        > <BR>
        > > > > depression. While it isn't a named TS as my first call--an
        early
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > stalling and flooding TS to hit between the Mississippi delta
        > and
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > Florida--given the part "El Nino" SOI winds and the
        > > > EMF/shearing <BR>
        > > > wind <BR>
        > > > > conditions this brings, it wasn't too bad a call. <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > <a
        > > >
        >
        href="http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/SeasonalClimateOutlook/Souther
        > n
        > > >
        >
        Oscil">http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/SeasonalClimateOutlook/Southe
        > r
        > > > nOscil</a><BR>
        > > > > lationIndex/30DaySOIValues/ <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > Date Tahiti Darwin Daily** 30 day 90 day <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > 10-Jul-2002 1014.90 1013.60 2.10 -5.69 -8.68 <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > 11-Jul-2002 1014.84 1013.10 4.80 -6.01 -8.59 <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > 12-Jul-2002 1014.90 1012.75 7.30 -6.16 -8.47 <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > 13-Jul-2002 1014.76 1013.10 4.30 -6.66 -8.43 <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > 14-Jul-2002 1013.83 1013.05 -1.00 -7.94 -8.44 <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > 15-Jul-2002 1012.88 1015.10 -19.50 -9.86 -8.66 <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > The SOI has gone back negative, now that Chris has moved to
        > colder
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > waters. What is interesting is how Chris sent a Doran wave
        that
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > reduced the cirrus cover over the central GOM as the first
        > > > tropical <BR>
        > > > > low of the season was forming, and how it formed in the first
        > <BR>
        > > > place, <BR>
        > > > > with a localized shoreline thunderstorms from the east and
        west
        > of
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > the GOM--that cause a vacuum effect in the middle--even as the
        > > > <BR>
        > > > middle <BR>
        > > > > was fair weather and proton receptive, and probably winds from
        > > > west <BR>
        > > > > to east inducting surface ocean currents against cirrus. Then
        it
        > > > <BR>
        > > > went <BR>
        > > > > east toward Florida in a disorganized manner, very elongated,
        > <BR>
        > > > > especially after Chris zapped it (convection over the Yukaton
        > > > stole <BR>
        > > > > the electrons in the ionosphere over the low), and this was
        part
        > > > of <BR>
        > > > a <BR>
        > > > > Doran wave that can be traced all the way to the counter
        current
        > > > in <BR>
        > > > > the most tropical waters off the coast of Peru . . . to
        Chris,
        > to
        > > > <BR>
        > > > the <BR>
        > > > > Yukaton, and then to a ULL over Iowa and a line of
        thunderstorms
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > south of that ULL, with a broken front further south of the
        line
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > directly south of the ULL and north of the GOM warm core
        surface
        > > > <BR>
        > > > low. <BR>
        > > > > The strike link was really cool to watch, for those who were
        > <BR>
        > > > > following this discussion. And for you Dr. Walt, that is
        > > > what I <BR>
        > > > have <BR>
        > > > > time for--descriptions in real time from the strike links and
        so
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > forth of how EMF move from fair weather and convection,
        > especially
        > > > <BR>
        > > > in <BR>
        > > > > the ionosphere, and cause forcings on ambiant winds.<BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx <no_reply@y...>
        > > > wrote:<BR>
        > > > > > The equatorial counter current lies between 5-10 deg north
        > > > <BR>
        > > > latitude <BR>
        > > > > > while the El Nino's warmest anomalies lie over the equator.
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > <a
        > > >
        >
        href="http://www.acl.lanl.gov/GrandChal/GCM/currents.html">http://www.
        > a
        > > > cl.lanl.gov/GrandChal/GCM/currents.html</a><BR>
        > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > The cold anomaly off Peru is occuring in currents that set
        > > > from <BR>
        > > > the <BR>
        > > > > > south-southeast towards the northwest then west-northwest,
        > > > not <BR>
        > > > west <BR>
        > > > > > to east as you said so I am confused here.<BR>
        > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > > <a
        > > >
        >
        href="http://psbsgi1.nesdis.noaa.gov:8080/PSB/EPS/SST/data/anomnight.7
        > .
        > > >
        >
        13.20">http://psbsgi1.nesdis.noaa.gov:8080/PSB/EPS/SST/data/anomnight.
        > 7
        > > > .13.20</a><BR>
        > > > > > 02.gif<BR>
        > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > Fred<BR>
        > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart"
        > > > <mike@u...> wrote:<BR>
        > > > > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., fredwx
        > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:<BR>
        > > > > > > > First, I am still uncertain what a Doran wave
        > > > is.<BR>
        > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > It has to do mostly with ion movements in the
        > > > ionosphere, as <BR>
        > > > > driven <BR>
        > > > > > > by dry areas w/ fair weather positive to ground EMF and
        > > > <BR>
        > > > > convection <BR>
        > > > > > > driven neg to ground. If there is a burst of
        > > > convective <BR>
        > > > activity <BR>
        > > > > > in <BR>
        > > > > > > one area it will ripple out EMF wise.<BR>
        > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > Here in Lutz (Tampa Bay area) we have over 2 inches
        > > > of rain <BR>
        > > > > from <BR>
        > > > > > > that <BR>
        > > > > > > > tropical disturbance but little wind.<BR>
        > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > Little surface wind. Stallers and flooders w/
        > > > cirrus going <BR>
        > > > > strong.<BR>
        > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > As far as the currents off <BR>
        > > > > > > > Peru, I believe they are more south to north than
        > > > east to <BR>
        > > > west.<BR>
        > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > I agree, but then it goes west and it is coming from the
        > > > west <BR>
        > > > to <BR>
        > > > > > east <BR>
        > > > > > > along the Equatorial. So ambiant winds can may it
        > > > go either <BR>
        > > > way--<BR>
        > > > > > and <BR>
        > > > > > > it hence becomes sensitive to flux and cummulated flux
        > > > that <BR>
        > > > cause <BR>
        > > > > > > anomalies like this. Those warm anomalies mean
        > > > more east to <BR>
        > > > west <BR>
        > > > > > > winds.<BR>
        > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > Fred <BR>
        > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y...,
        > > > "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:<BR>
        > > > > > > > > Below is a from another bb--a conversation
        > > > between John <BR>
        > > > > Lerch, <BR>
        > > > > > a <BR>
        > > > > > > > > physicist, and myself, this morning, about
        > > > induction and <BR>
        > > > > > > hurricanes:<BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > Again, <BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > I agree w/ you that if you where ONLY talking
        > > > about the <BR>
        > > > > earth's <BR>
        > > > > > > EMF <BR>
        > > > > > > > > the induction produces a small magnetic
        > > > field.<BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > However, we are NOT. We are talking
        > > > about large local sub <BR>
        > > > > > fields <BR>
        > > > > > > > > from strikes and so forth.<BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > Further, there are currents.
        > > > Example. The Doran wave <BR>
        > > > coming <BR>
        > > > > > > from <BR>
        > > > > > > > > the cold anomaly off the coast of Peru, where
        > > > fair weather <BR>
        > > > > > > protons <BR>
        > > > > > > > > coming from the ionosphere are going to meet
        > > > higher <BR>
        > > > impedance <BR>
        > > > > > (Z) <BR>
        > > > > > > > > from the colder SSTS COMBINED w/ the wind and
        > > > current <BR>
        > > > > direction <BR>
        > > > > > > > > moving west to east. Then there is the
        > > > induction of <BR>
        > > > current <BR>
        > > > > > from <BR>
        > > > > > > > > southeast to northwest along the South Mexican
        > > > border where <BR>
        > > > > > there <BR>
        > > > > > > > are <BR>
        > > > > > > > > warm anomalies. A Doran wave culminates
        > > > in a named <BR>
        > > > tropical <BR>
        > > > > > > storm, <BR>
        > > > > > > > > which itself has strong southeast to northeast
        > > > winds right <BR>
        > > > > now <BR>
        > > > > > as <BR>
        > > > > > > > we <BR>
        > > > > > > > > discuss this.<BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > Last night on TWC there was a five hour loop
        > > > of sat <BR>
        > > > pictures <BR>
        > > > > > that <BR>
        > > > > > > > > included this new E. Pac storm and a surface
        > > > low in the <BR>
        > > > GOM. <BR>
        > > > > > > What <BR>
        > > > > > > > > happened as the E. Pac storm became a named
        > > > storm, with <BR>
        > > > > > > convection <BR>
        > > > > > > > > flaring up near the low, a HUGE Doran wave
        > > > moved charges in <BR>
        > > > > the <BR>
        > > > > > > > whole <BR>
        > > > > > > > > region. There was a huge area of
        > > > convection flare up over <BR>
        > > > > the <BR>
        > > > > > > > > Yukatan and then that ripped electrons from
        > > > the low over <BR>
        > > > the <BR>
        > > > > > > GOM. <BR>
        > > > > > > > > Almost instantaniously, and you could see it
        > > > from the <BR>
        > > > loops, <BR>
        > > > > > > > > convection during the warmest part of the day
        > > > over a low <BR>
        > > > over <BR>
        > > > > > > warm <BR>
        > > > > > > > > SSTs in the GOM stopped. This, again, is
        > > > explained by loss <BR>
        > > > > of <BR>
        > > > > > > > cirrus <BR>
        > > > > > > > > enhancement and the IR/reflection balances and
        > > > huge GHG <BR>
        > > > > > > > differentials <BR>
        > > > > > > > > that result as the water in the air changes in
        > > > character.<BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > To give you an idea how critical this is to
        > > > ambiant air <BR>
        > > > > > > movements, <BR>
        > > > > > > > > one model called the GDFL had called for this
        > > > tropical <BR>
        > > > storm <BR>
        > > > > to <BR>
        > > > > > > > high <BR>
        > > > > > > > > the panhandle of Florida as a CAT 3 storm--72
        > > > hours from <BR>
        > > > the <BR>
        > > > > > > > > forecast--which was 72 hours ago. This
        > > > is a good example <BR>
        > > > of <BR>
        > > > > > how <BR>
        > > > > > > > the <BR>
        > > > > > > > > EMF is THE forcing . . .<BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
        > > > > > > > > From: John Lerch <jlerch1@c...><BR>
        > > > > > > > > To: Debate <Debate@l...><BR>
        > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:13:59 -0500<BR>
        > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: EMFs and ENSO/JAL<BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > > Mike<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > You refer to hurricanes as EMF
        > > > inducing. Of course<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > there is induction. The only thing
        > > > you have no<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > evidence to support is the notion that
        > > > the motion of<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > oceanic currents thru the earth's
        > > > magnetic field<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > induces a charge separation that
        > > > continues for some<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > substantial period of time before the
        > > > electrostatic<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > attraction pulls those charges back and
        > > > before any such<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > motion perpendicular to the oceanic
        > > > current causes the<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > electrical current to be deflected once
        > > > again. IOW not<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > only does the electrostatic attraction
        > > > immediately stop<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > the charge separation but any separation
        > > > that does<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > start immediately goes into an
        > > > orbital cicular motion<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > (of diameter about 1/10000 the diameter
        > > > of an atom as I<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > showed several posts ago) perpendicular
        > > > to the magnetic<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > field, effectively ending the charge
        > > > separation. JAL<BR>
        > > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > > <BR>
        > > > > <BR>
        > > >
        >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        > <
        > > > BR>
        > > > > > > > > _<BR>
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