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Re: [Methane Hydrate Club] A question for "Dr". Walt.

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  • foryeshua1@juno.com
    Mid- I don t know if you are talking to me. I think you are probably talking to Mike the Pawn. Just in case you would like to know about what my ideas are
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 7, 2002
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      Mid- I don't know if you are talking to me. I think you are probably
      talking to Mike the Pawn. Just in case you would like to know about what
      my ideas are you can find them on http://www.vorbitz.com/electrojet You
      can't write to me there though. You need to write to me at
      foryeshua1@... My last three years interaction are not on this site
      though. Descriptions of what have happened must come from me. Dr. Walter
      Peterson

      On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 03:54:24 -0000 midlantwx <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      writes:
      I would like to be presented with the Long answer please:)

      When you have the time:)

      Please load it up with your usual terminology and links!:)) I really
      enjoy your discourses, reading them and learning from them is one way I
      unwind after a long day. I kick back in my easy chair and enjoy all your
      fascinating ideas!!

      Again, please give me the Long version, When you have plenty of time!:) I
      am willing to wait a couple weeks if need be:)

      Hey man, never give up on this Group!!! I find your discussions
      interesting, I always have!!! You must have a doctorate or something!
      Anyway, I enjoy this place!!!! Please keep up your excellent work! You've
      got some way cool members too!!! They also post very good, quality
      articles!!!

      Sincerely,

      -midlantwx





      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
      > Hi Mid,
      >
      > Nice to hear from you.
      >
      > The short answer is how strongly neg the Gaia produced Doran wave has
      > been to the Florida to Mississippi delta region compared to the
      > drought areas off the NE coast, which provided a place for a dry
      > strip to curve. But also the dams from W. Africa and S. America have
      > really delayed EMF pulses from the tropics that sometimes bring Cape
      > Verde waves and moisture to your neck of the woods.
      >
      > Here are two exchanges from another climate bb on the Doran waves:
      > Subject: Re: More Doran waves and Texas flooding
      >
      > > Yet the Doran waves have had difficulty reaching Arizona, given the
      > EMF
      > > condition, very positive, of the north Sea of Cortez.
      > >
      > > Where do you get your "figures" for the EMF condition? Is there a
      > site
      > > which lists them, or do you calculate them from a formula or what?
      >
      > When you watch a wave ripple outward on a lake from a stone you have
      > thrown, do you do math? Are you really THAT DUMB with your math?
      >
      > Again, I have been merely observing this link:
      >
      > http://www.weatherimages.org/data/imag87.html
      >
      > And watching dry strips and wet and cirrus and strikes. It's all
      > very
      > basic.
      >
      > The numbers on EMF I have posted here again and again. For instance,
      > the
      > numbers of fair weather voltage positive to ground of 250 volts. Or
      > what
      > strike voltages are, or sprites and elves from cloud top to
      > ionosphere.
      > Or what ion concentrations are prestorm. Or how cloud bottoms go
      > negitive pre strike and tops positive. So there certainly is a
      > relative
      > or general path. The general description works, because all I am
      > describing is a wave.
      >
      > The relative biological conditions between the North Sea of Cortez
      > and
      > the GOM would then present relatively more negitive strikes and a
      > negitive to posistive condition between the two Gulfs, and has very
      > significant Gaia implications. The fact that it then can be observed,
      > both in terms of dry patches over sea AND land, as well as wave forms
      > and
      > severe weather from shorts across these waves, is significant without
      > math.
      >
      > I will say this. When Alan was here there were calculations about
      > CME
      > winds and protons and what currents would be involved and what he
      > showed
      > was that the solar wind was on order of magnetude smaller then what
      > would
      > be expected to be signifincant. These are valuable mathematical
      > comments, but certainly should apply when the current peer reviewed
      > science on EMFs and strikes are in agreement about the lower
      > ionosphere's
      > positive charges and strikes, elves, and sprites, as well as there is
      > agreement, say, about the terresphere's slightly acidic pH.
      >
      > Which brings me to John Lerch's assertion that rivers are not crossed
      > because they are thermally different. I tend to think that would go
      > to
      > intesity not whether it would occur or not. I further think that
      > water
      > spouts is not a good example because a body of water can gain a net
      > charge, and lakes tend to have acidic pHs. A river, OTOH, will be
      > connected more likely then not to EMFs that do not provide charge
      > accumulations that the storm seeks. If the charges were found on a
      > lake,
      > for instance, the lakes surface temperature compared to the land is
      > more
      > offset by the IR differences between sustained cirrus or not far
      > above
      > the spout. So, where a river fails is more likely by its EMF
      > potential.
      > Likewise, the metal of a tailer park is more likely to maintain, like
      > capacitors, a positive charge accumulated from fair weather
      > conditions
      > and hold it to be discharged for a storm.
      >
      > John, I am truly surprised you cannot see this.
      >
      > ++++++++++++++
      >
      > > Please forgive me Mike. I still think the post about
      > > tornadoes is probably idiotic, but I've been trashing
      > > the doran wave thread posts without reading them.
      >
      > I don't know what to say to that or whether I should even reply.
      >
      > > Therefore, I did a google search to see if this is
      > > original with you; and I guess it must be since I found
      > > nothing.
      >
      > My name is Mike Doran. Figure it out.
      >
      >
      >
      > > If you want to, would you please post a primer with
      > > these facts (less than 5k):
      > > What is the inertial object (i.e. what coasts along)?
      >
      > In general the ionosphere is slightly positive. Published peer
      > reviewed
      > authors on the subject maintain that the ionosphere is maintained by
      > strikes, and recently evidence of sprite and elve activity above
      > thunderstorms confirms this theory. Fair weather voltages then apply
      > this positive charge accumulation to ground, which leads to the fair
      > weather voltage that has been discussed here by Alan and others.
      > Alan
      > got a 150 volt positive reading from one of his text books. I have
      > seen
      > several internet sources for fair weather voltages--all at a range
      > from
      > 100 to 250 volts per meter squared.
      >
      > Strikes, as you know, carry very powerful EMF. They in general bring
      > electrons or negitive charges to ground, and the ultimate source of
      > those
      > electrons is the ionosphere.
      >
      > I submit that there are current flows in the ionosphere and deep
      > under
      > the earth where magma is more conductive, as well as charge
      > accumulations
      > in the oceans, on land. That there are charges that ocean currents
      > present, as well as varying resistances. As you may know, when
      > induction
      > occurs there is not only the resistance of the medium but also
      > resistance
      > from the induction itself. Further, there is the insulation by the
      > hydrates and the pH and temperatures differences in the oceans.
      >
      > > What is the restoring "force"?
      >
      > The currents flow from charge accumulations to charge depreciated
      > areas.
      > What happens is that there are several areas where insulation is so
      > great
      > that great accumulations must occur before a discharge creates EMF
      > equillibrium in a area. But while charge seperatations exist, they
      > enhance or not cirrus cloud behavior, which in turn varies IR
      > balances
      > and convection processes.
      >
      > > Is there something that builds up i.e. is there some
      > > kind of shock?
      >
      > See above.
      >
      >
      > > Is the interaction of the inertial object and the
      > > restoring object dependent on one or the other to a
      > > much higher than linear dependence? I.E. is there a
      > > feedback which causes the shock? (Reverse the order of
      > > these last 2 paragraphs.)
      >
      > There is a discussion below on the life of thunderstorms, how
      > initially
      > the charges of a forming thunderstorm accumulate. The ground below
      > the
      > thunderstorm, where the dry line exists, accumulates positive
      > charges. I
      > provided a link on the ions accumulating in a previous post. The
      > bottom
      > clouds then bring their electrons, pre strike, near these charges.
      > Those
      > charges come from the entire cloud, making it more positive,
      > relatively
      > speaking. Cirrus clouds, then, with a positive charge in the upper
      > reaches of the cloud, eventually reach a point where they are more
      > positive then the lower ionosphere--which is pretty positive to start
      > with. That causes movements of ions in the ionosphere--negitive
      > ones, to
      > come above the forming thunderstorm. This then attracts the cirrus
      > clouds and causes favorable IR balances for further convection and
      > heating of the cloud--because instead of falling, the ice crystals
      > are
      > attracted to the ionosphere. This is why severe weather contains
      > hail!
      > I realize there are other thermal processes at work, but the basic
      > driving dynamic of SEVERE storms is EMFs.
      >
      > Now, once a strike occurs, the cloud becomes EXTREMELY positively
      > charged, and so the sprite and elve activity occurs. That passes the
      > electrons accumulated in the ionosphere to the cloud top and balances
      > EMFs just above the storm. The ice crystals are no longer held by
      > EMF
      > and they begin to fall--as precip.
      >
      > However, the ionosphere post strike is now relatively positively
      > charged
      > for loss from the elve/sprite activity and the cirrus that doesn't
      > fall
      > as rain carries the charge of the ionosphere where electrons
      > accumulated--
      > so it will be relatively negitive compared now to the ionsphere, and
      > hence blow off cirrus is going to be attracted to the ionosphere for
      > some
      > time after a strike . . .
      >
      > Slowly, as the ionosphere regains its relatively more negitive charge
      > and
      > the cirrus its positive charge, sometimes 75 miles away from a storm
      > center, they are no longer enhanced by EMFs . . .
      >
      > It is in these delicate balances of EMFs that Doran waves move up and
      > down between ground and ionosphere over hundreds of miles. The
      > result is
      > clearly visable on the link I have provided for this discussion.
      >
      > > PS what is the origin of the word doran? JAL
      >
      > Doran means 'stranger' in Gaelic.
      >
      > What does Lerch mean?
      >
      > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., midlantwx <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > From midlantwx: Your discussions are fascinating!
      > >
      > > How do these "Wet Strips" and "Dry Strips" correlate to the
      > devastating drought in the Mid Atlantic? Our lawns are brown already
      > and it's only early July! Precipitation income has been below
      > climatic norms since early September last year.
      > >
      > >
      > > -midlantwx
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "pawnfart" <mike@u...> wrote:
      > > > > Seeing lightening strike does not enable you to understand
      > where it
      > > > is
      > > > > coming from and going to.
      > > >
      > > > I agree with that. But there is now science about strikes out
      > there
      > > > that when put into context of radar images is very helpful. More
      > > > below.
      > > >
      > > > When I found that
      > > > > insulating the drilling shaft of early oil well drilling rigs
      > > > stopped
      > > > > both lightening and tornados, I knew what was the process and
      > cause
      > > > of
      > > > > tornados. The people that did it, said "Whew" went on drilling
      > and
      > > > > getting oil without tornadoes nor lightening and didn't say to
      > > > > themselves. We can control where tornados hit. This is an
      > example
      > > > of
      > > > > Prima Facia Evidence that was totally missed.
      > > >
      > > > Take your words in the context of my further comments about Texas
      > > > flooding and Doran waves:
      > > >
      > > > http://www.weatherimages.org/data/imag87.html
      > > >
      > > > Above, again, the strike/radar link.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I want to talk a little more about Doran waves. South of Texas in
      > > > Mexico along the southern border the monsoons started in a way
      > that
      > > > the wet strip extends south to there based on a world radar I saw
      > > > today on TWC. The wet lines extend far north. Dry strips, again,
      > go
      > > > to the Sea of Cortez, and there is a dry line w/ undoubtedly west
      > to
      > > > east winds in the GOM. There is also a dry strip that has been
      > moving
      > > > about in the NE.
      > > > Anyway, there is a reason why they are shaped in strips and if
      > there
      > > > is EMF activity in a strip it is severe, I suspect. If there is
      > any
      > > > convection in a dry strip (say a jet stream causes instability or
      > an
      > > > area of storms with intense EMF activity by strikes from wave top
      > to
      > > > wave top with the area in question between them in the dry strip)
      > and
      > > > a strike goes to ground, there would be much larger positive ion
      > > > concentrations to ground and a source of, therefore, VERY
      > positively
      > > > charged cloud tops pre strike. If a storm were more on a frontal
      > > > boundary the EMF extremes, the ion concentrations, would find
      > much
      > > > easier equilibriums.
      > > >
      > > > My view is the cirrus must be sustained in incredible ways, and
      > that
      > > > explains some of the outrageous rainfalls and tornado activity
      > that
      > > > has resulted. The strike activity in Texas has been very
      > interesting
      > > > to watch for about two weeks now.
      > > >
      > > > Yet the Doran waves have had difficulty reaching Arizona, given
      > the
      > > > EMF condition, very positive, of the north Sea of Cortez.
      > > >
      > > > When Allison flooded Texas last year about the same time as it is
      > > > being flooded now, it was the product of a tropical storm, or a
      > warm
      > > > core low. In this instance, the flooding is per an upper low.
      > > >
      > > > Last year, the W. GOM was completely covered w/ cirrus and the
      > > > surface winds moved from the middle of the GOM to the low--
      > inducting
      > > > EMF for cirrus. The low sucked all that moisture in the E. GOM
      > into
      > > > Texas. Right now, the dry air portion of the E. GOM has winds
      > moving
      > > > essentially west to east, inducting against cirrus and providing
      > > > upper air balances for negative EMF in the ionosphere for the
      > charges
      > > > to enhance cirrus in the upper atmosphere. The heat and
      > convection
      > > > is local but the EMF source of the movement of cirrus to provide
      > such
      > > > balances that cause this rain are also based in the E. GOM. This
      > is
      > > > all electrical.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Lately some of the descriptions being given of what is
      > going on
      > > > that
      > > > > you are describing, have been more understandable. I think you
      > are
      > > > > describing something. I am not convinced that a whole enough
      > > > picture is
      > > > > being painted to allow people to decide where to measure and
      > what
      > > > it can
      > > > > tell us.
      > > >
      > > > Now that I know a little more about you I will re post some of
      > the
      > > > conversations I have had w/ Alan, a systems electrician. It gets
      > > > pretty mathy and it breaks down, I think, in ways you will
      > appreciate.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I believe the SE and its interaction is what you need to really
      > > > > have a picture that completes the whole pattern of what is
      > happening
      > > > > electrically.
      > > >
      > > > I agree. What I wanted to comment on is there are Dr. Gray
      > > > statistics as to 500 mb winds over Greenland and near the Pac NW
      > that
      > > > are TS intellegant for the following season. I will have more
      > > > comments later. But for now, the key issue is going to be the
      > > > insulative properties of the air and how that defines things in
      > terms
      > > > of strikes and Schumann resonances--and IR balances and what is
      > then
      > > > feed back from that. What you may be hitting on will have to do
      > with
      > > > how EMF get organized and why the induction works in a
      > directional
      > > > manner . . .
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I have tossed out static electricity a long time ago. All
      > > > > electricity is coming from somewhere and going along a path
      > which
      > > > will
      > > > > eventually find it retracing its paths. The main path is from
      > and
      > > > back
      > > > > to the Sun, for all of the planets of our solar system. It is
      > NOT
      > > > > CMEjections. It is far more steady in its current or CME would
      > > > control
      > > > > it instead of the other way around.
      > > >
      > > > I don't disagree. HOWEVER, the SE controls the organization of
      > the
      > > > field and the particles in it, not the particles in it. The
      > > > particles impact the cirrus, which impacts the convection,
      > strikes,
      > > > and so forth--so you have a feedback impact, whereas the SE is in
      > > > less flux relative to WEATHER. Climate may be another thing
      > > > (timescales), BUT at the end of the day the biosphere wins,
      > because
      > > > if it did not, we would not be hear rapping about this.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > It turns the world on its axis, it
      > > > > powers the weather jets, it heats the center of the earth,
      > etc.
      > > > > Maybe later, Walter
      > > > > I didn't know you asked that question. I also did not feel
      > that
      > > > you
      > > > > read enough of my materials to even be interested in what I was
      > > > saying. I
      > > > > did not get feedback on a lot of things I wrote and decided
      > that you
      > > > > didn't respond because you had no input nor questions, or you
      > > > didn't get
      > > > > it. It also has occurred to me that we both are trying to sell
      > > > > electricity as a foundational force that most scientists, don't
      > know
      > > > > enough about to begin to think in its terms. needed to do if
      > there
      > > > is to
      > > > > be successful challenging and changing of the current
      > Scientific
      > > > attitude
      > > > > toward electricity.
      > > >
      > > > We have common ground for sure. I don't think, however, that EMF
      > are
      > > > THE modulating force by and of themselves. Instead, it is EMF
      > > > modulated by the biosphere . . .
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > On Fri, 05 Jul 2002 16:25:41 -0000 "pawnfart" <mike@u...>
      > writes:
      > > > > If you want to unsubscribe, I am not sure you did it
      > correctly.
      > > > But
      > > > > that isn't my question.
      > > > >
      > > > > My question I asked before, unanswered, is what is your PhD?
      > What,
      > > > > IOW, do you teach?
      > > > >
      > > > > ++++++++
      > > > >
      > > > > Here is a specific comment from last year where a substantive
      > > > > discusssion did occur on another bb regarding EMFs and what is
      > > > > discussed here. I posed it to B-1 and we didn't get to far.
      > This
      > > > is
      > > > > the type of question I was hoping someone like you could help
      > us
      > > > out
      > > > > with but it appears that you aren't who you say you are:
      > > > >
      > > > > (quoting B-1 solar CME data):
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Solar wind speed : 664.5 km/sec Solar wind density : 5.3
      > protons/cc
      > > > > Solar wind pressure : 3.9 nPa
      > > > >
      > > > > <SNIP>
      > > > >
      > > > > Me again:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > "What I think you should note more then anything is the proton
      > > > stream
      > > > > from the sun, because these are particles that will be sorted
      > by
      > > > > SSTs. "
      > > > >
      > > > > Alan from OZ writes:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > "Mike what I want you to note, is just how small this flux of
      > > > protons
      > > > > appears to be to this dimbo technician. And if this is the
      > solar
      > > > wind
      > > > > before hitting the earth's surface, then presumably not all of
      > > > these
      > > > > charges even make it to the earth.
      > > > >
      > > > > ***I really do need a physicist's comment here, **** if i=q/t,
      > > > (where
      > > > > i = current in amps, & q = quantity of electric charges in
      > > > Coulombs)
      > > > > and if the electrical charge on a electron is about 1.602 x 10^-
      > 19
      > > > > coulombs, then we need to move: 1 / 1.602 x 10^-19C per sec to
      > pass
      > > > > 1Amp of current. Or 6.24 x 10^18 electrons must be moved for a
      > > > > current of 1A.
      > > > >
      > > > > The solar wind protons moving in a "tube" of space of csa 1cm^2
      > @
      > > > > 664. km/s above would only move 5.3 x 664.5 x 1000m charges, or
      > > > 3.52
      > > > > x 10^6 protons. If this calc. is correct, then you should be
      > able
      > > > to
      > > > > see that this is a *very small* movement of charges/second
      > compared
      > > > > to even 1 ampere. [John L. please comment] {my comment
      > inserted--
      > > > > another poster in the conversation who is a physics head}
      > > > >
      > > > > It seems to me that you are seeing something here that is a
      > form of
      > > > > "number blindness". "
      > > > >
      > > > > Comments? How would the SE organize these charges? SSTs?
      > Strikes
      > > > > caused by convection in relation to current movement in the
      > > > > ionosphere? Induction of currents in the ionosphere from daily
      > > > > expansion and contraction? QBO (50 mb winds of ions that move
      > > > about
      > > > > 90 mph)?
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > methanehydrateclub-unsubscribe@y...
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > > > Service.
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions


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