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1479Re: Road Fascism

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  • Mike Doran
    Nov 9, 2002
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      --- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "David" <b1blancer1@e...> wrote:
      >
      > > Without question the subsidy allows you to have the job you have
      and
      > > live where you live.
      >
      > And its a good thing too, or I would be unemployed. Been there,
      done
      > that, couldn't afford the t-shirt.
      >

      Sadly, as Hubbert's peak digs in to this economy based on cheap
      fossil fuels and MASSIVE subsidies that encourages driving powered on
      that cheap fuel, I don't think you or I understand the meaning of
      unemployment.

      >
      > > Would
      > > > you keep me from getting home to my wife?
      > > >
      > >
      > > That is an unfair question. The better question I will have you
      > > answer. Do you think free food in the Soviet Union was a good
      idea?
      > >
      >
      > Uhhh, you lost me. What does that have to do with roads?
      >

      The free food socialism--or subsidy based farming, did not work.
      Lines for food were long (gridlock) and soon the food was gone. A
      black market evolved (pols on the dole from big oil like Bush for
      wars for oil, more roads, etc). A lack of market leads to
      corruption.

      >
      > > Because it comes from the subsidy with the cost of making it
      worse
      > > for those who do live in higher density areas. And it isn't
      > > sustainable--indeed already the economy is feeling it and we
      haven't
      > > had the impact of Hubbert's peak or serious climate change from
      our
      > > activity . . . yet. And mostly because there IS a social cost to
      > > road fascism.
      >
      > Well, I live in the largest city in my part of the state! It really
      > isn't big enough to have suburbs, so I guess that's not a good
      > example. So, let's take where I am working, which is in the
      > Washington, DC area. There are definitely a LOT of suburbs here.
      In
      > fact, I stay in one suburb (Chantilly, VA), and work in another
      > (Reston, VA). So what would you have us do? Every leave the suburb
      > towns and move to DC proper? That would be impossible! There's no
      > way there would be enough housing to hold all the people, never mind
      > the fact that many of the jobs are in the suburbs as well. You're
      > assuming that everybody commutes to the "big city" to work. That
      > isn't always the case.

      Certainly you have captured the reason the economy is now slowing.
      We have reached the end of the subsidy in terms of wealth transfers
      from high density areas to low. Look at it this way. In the Soviet
      Union, there were probably some people who could not afford food. To
      them, free food was good. And to the farmer who was paid to grow the
      food for the government, that was work for them as well. But with
      the whole market false, soon supply and demand was all messed up and
      you had bread lines, shortages, cheaters on the supply side, and a
      black market for farming, and inefficiecies growing the food for a
      false market. With road fascism, we are starting to see that suburbs
      are growing so fast that they lack infrastructure that towns have,
      like sidewalks, water, fire, and even nearby healthcare. The suburbs
      are starting to lack infrastucture AND, here is the most critical
      point, what infrastructure they do have is based soley on the
      assumption of cheap fossil fuels. The economic consequences are
      frightening, because we now largely have a false market that faces
      shortages on the assumptions upon which it is based. If any kind of
      political or economy monopoly occurs with the supplying nations of
      oil, it could get even worse.


      > >
      > > BTW, if roads were tolled you could eliminate other taxes.
      >
      > Yeah, you would eliminate a lot of driving. You would also
      eliminate
      > people's ability to get to their jobs, schools, etc.
      >

      See above. The question isn't whether this is a hard choice, but
      whether to make the choice with planning and with time so that its
      impace isn't devistating. Sometimes false market problems are solved
      with more false markets. EG subsidizing the heck out of renewables.
      But for the suburban power in governemnt to take the position that
      they are the power that is against false markets, against the
      government involved in their lives is a LIE--just like his daddy,
      read my lips. Big lie. Effective lie, really. The roads ARE
      government, its largest part. To not regulate them, incorporate them
      in a regulated market economy is short sighted and wrong.

      > >but do you honestly think it makes any
      > > sense to drive a 4,000 pound SUV to return that 5 ounce video?
      > > Really?
      >
      > No, of course it doesn't make sense to drive that way. No argument
      there.

      Tolls and other solutions to address the false market won't eliminate
      all driving or cause job losses everywhere, but rather will prevent
      this kind of madness and help us face the future shortages and market
      as we near Hubbert's peak. To go the other way, as the Bush
      administration is doing, to sell out to these special interests of
      big oil, is to put the fire out with gasoline. Very scary.

      BTW, Dave, don't take this personal. I think you are really cool.
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