1479Re: Road Fascism
- Nov 9, 2002--- In methanehydrateclub@y..., "David" <b1blancer1@e...> wrote:
> > Without question the subsidy allows you to have the job you have
> > live where you live.done
> And its a good thing too, or I would be unemployed. Been there,
> that, couldn't afford the t-shirt.Sadly, as Hubbert's peak digs in to this economy based on cheap
fossil fuels and MASSIVE subsidies that encourages driving powered on
that cheap fuel, I don't think you or I understand the meaning of
> > Would
> > > you keep me from getting home to my wife?
> > >
> > That is an unfair question. The better question I will have you
> > answer. Do you think free food in the Soviet Union was a good
> >The free food socialism--or subsidy based farming, did not work.
> Uhhh, you lost me. What does that have to do with roads?
Lines for food were long (gridlock) and soon the food was gone. A
black market evolved (pols on the dole from big oil like Bush for
wars for oil, more roads, etc). A lack of market leads to
> > Because it comes from the subsidy with the cost of making it
> > for those who do live in higher density areas. And it isn'thaven't
> > sustainable--indeed already the economy is feeling it and we
> > had the impact of Hubbert's peak or serious climate change fromour
> > activity . . . yet. And mostly because there IS a social cost toIn
> > road fascism.
> Well, I live in the largest city in my part of the state! It really
> isn't big enough to have suburbs, so I guess that's not a good
> example. So, let's take where I am working, which is in the
> Washington, DC area. There are definitely a LOT of suburbs here.
> fact, I stay in one suburb (Chantilly, VA), and work in anotherCertainly you have captured the reason the economy is now slowing.
> (Reston, VA). So what would you have us do? Every leave the suburb
> towns and move to DC proper? That would be impossible! There's no
> way there would be enough housing to hold all the people, never mind
> the fact that many of the jobs are in the suburbs as well. You're
> assuming that everybody commutes to the "big city" to work. That
> isn't always the case.
We have reached the end of the subsidy in terms of wealth transfers
from high density areas to low. Look at it this way. In the Soviet
Union, there were probably some people who could not afford food. To
them, free food was good. And to the farmer who was paid to grow the
food for the government, that was work for them as well. But with
the whole market false, soon supply and demand was all messed up and
you had bread lines, shortages, cheaters on the supply side, and a
black market for farming, and inefficiecies growing the food for a
false market. With road fascism, we are starting to see that suburbs
are growing so fast that they lack infrastructure that towns have,
like sidewalks, water, fire, and even nearby healthcare. The suburbs
are starting to lack infrastucture AND, here is the most critical
point, what infrastructure they do have is based soley on the
assumption of cheap fossil fuels. The economic consequences are
frightening, because we now largely have a false market that faces
shortages on the assumptions upon which it is based. If any kind of
political or economy monopoly occurs with the supplying nations of
oil, it could get even worse.
> > BTW, if roads were tolled you could eliminate other taxes.
> Yeah, you would eliminate a lot of driving. You would also
> people's ability to get to their jobs, schools, etc.See above. The question isn't whether this is a hard choice, but
whether to make the choice with planning and with time so that its
impace isn't devistating. Sometimes false market problems are solved
with more false markets. EG subsidizing the heck out of renewables.
But for the suburban power in governemnt to take the position that
they are the power that is against false markets, against the
government involved in their lives is a LIE--just like his daddy,
read my lips. Big lie. Effective lie, really. The roads ARE
government, its largest part. To not regulate them, incorporate them
in a regulated market economy is short sighted and wrong.
> >but do you honestly think it makes anythere.
> > sense to drive a 4,000 pound SUV to return that 5 ounce video?
> > Really?
> No, of course it doesn't make sense to drive that way. No argument
Tolls and other solutions to address the false market won't eliminate
all driving or cause job losses everywhere, but rather will prevent
this kind of madness and help us face the future shortages and market
as we near Hubbert's peak. To go the other way, as the Bush
administration is doing, to sell out to these special interests of
big oil, is to put the fire out with gasoline. Very scary.
BTW, Dave, don't take this personal. I think you are really cool.
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