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Contamination of Aluminum by steel particles

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  • gordon bartlett
    Guys I have a 1937 Lincoln type 37 coming in the near future .Aluminum Body ,steel fenders . The issue of using tools which I used on steel working . Do I have
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 1, 2009
    Guys
      I have a 1937 Lincoln type 37 coming in the near future .Aluminum Body ,steel fenders .
    The issue of using tools which I used on steel working . Do I have to clean tools {If possible } or buy separate tools to use on the Aluminum Body so as not to start corrosion effects from dissimiler metals ?
     Now to see if picture shows up .
    GordonB 
  • Terry Thorne
    gordo, I got a web error unknown there is a little box that says my picture 007.jpg attached to your post. tt
    Message 2 of 12 , Jun 1, 2009
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      gordo,
      I got a web error "unknown"

      there is a little box that says my picture 007.jpg attached to your post.
      tt

      On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 7:37 PM, gordon bartlett<stingshp@...> wrote:
      > [Attachment(s) from gordon bartlett included below]
      >
      > Guys
      >   I have a 1937 Lincoln type 37 coming in the near future .Aluminum Body
      > ,steel fenders .
      > The issue of using tools which I used on steel working . Do I have to clean
      > tools {If possible } or buy separate tools to use on the Aluminum Body so as
      > not to start corrosion effects from dissimiler metals ?
      >  Now to see if picture shows up .
      > GordonB
      >
    • Terry Thorne
      well just clicked on it again and it took me to yahoo and the picture. so???? it must be working.....tt
      Message 3 of 12 , Jun 1, 2009
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        well just clicked on it again and it took me to yahoo and the picture.
        so???? it must be working.....tt
      • gordon bartlett
        AAAUUUWWWW ,TT GordonB ... From: Terry Thorne To: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [metalshapers]
        Message 4 of 12 , Jun 1, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          AAAUUUWWWW      ,TT
           GordonB
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 8:10 PM
          Subject: Re: [metalshapers] Contamination of Aluminum by steel particles

          well just clicked on it again and it took me to yahoo and the picture.
          so???? it must be working..... tt

        • oldgoaly
          Gordo, hopefully Rick Mullin will chime in, but for a car that is 70 yrs old? and how does a tool pick up metal? a shrinking hammer? ok I can see it, but
          Message 5 of 12 , Jun 1, 2009
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            Gordo, hopefully Rick Mullin will chime in, but for a car that is 70 yrs old? and how does a tool pick up metal? a shrinking hammer? ok I can see it, but polished smooth faced hammer? not much of a surface for the contaminates to cling to. But then proper preping of the paint take care of most these contaminates? tt how about that pictures on yahooooooo!
          • Richard Ferguson
            A few comments: Your tools are steel; I don t think that anybody is working aluminum Audi bodies with titanium tools. I am ruthless about keeping abrasives for
            Message 6 of 12 , Jun 1, 2009
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              Re: [metalshapers] Contamination of Aluminum by steel part
              A few comments:

              Your tools are steel; I don't think that anybody is working aluminum Audi bodies with titanium tools.

              I am ruthless about keeping abrasives for different materials separate, as I work in various metals.

              What about going over your tools with very fine sandpaper or scotchbrite before you start on the aluminum?   That should clean up  any loose residue on the tools.  This is the position taken by one of the articles below.

              This technical service bulletin talks about separate tools for aluminum.

              www.stangnet.com/images/stories/docs/s197_TSBs/06-25-15.pdf

              This article seems a little more reasonable.  " You must also thoroughly clean metal-forming hammers, dollies and other tools that are used for both metals."

              >http://www.search-autoparts.com/searchautoparts/Metal+Shop/Slaying-the-Aluminum-Dragon/ArticleLong/Article/detail/1387

              Good luck.

              Richard




              [Attachment(s) from gordon bartlett included below]
              Guys
                I have a 1937 Lincoln type 37 coming in the near future .Aluminum Body ,steel fenders .
              The issue of using tools which I used on steel working . Do I have to clean tools {If possible } or buy separate tools to use on the Aluminum Body so as not to start corrosion effects from dissimiler metals ?
               Now to see if picture shows up .
              GordonB


              Attachment(s) from gordon bartlett
              1 of 1 Photo(s)

              My Pictures 007.jpg



              -- 
              
              http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
              Sculptures in copper and other metals
            • gordon bartlett
              I normally scuff/buff my tools and then a wipe down ,it would be nice if thats all thats needed . I ;ll look through your Articles shortly . Thanks Richard .
              Message 7 of 12 , Jun 1, 2009
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                I normally scuff/buff  my tools and then a wipe down ,it would be nice if thats all thats needed .
                 I ;ll look through your Articles shortly .
                 Thanks Richard .
                 GordonB
                   
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:35 PM
                Subject: Re: [metalshapers] Contamination of Aluminum by steel particles

                A few comments:

                Your tools are steel; I don't think that anybody is working aluminum Audi bodies with titanium tools.

                I am ruthless about keeping abrasives for different materials separate, as I work in various metals.

                What about going over your tools with very fine sandpaper or scotchbrite before you start on the aluminum?   That should clean up  any loose residue on the tools.  This is the position taken by one of the articles below.

                This technical service bulletin talks about separate tools for aluminum.

                www.stangnet. com/images/ stories/docs/ s197_TSBs/ 06-25-15. pdf

                This article seems a little more reasonable.  " You must also thoroughly clean metal-forming hammers, dollies and other tools that are used for both metals."

                http://www.search- autoparts. com/searchautopa rts/Metal+ Shop/Slaying- the-Aluminum- Dragon/ArticleLo ng/Article/ detail/1387

                Good luck.

                Richard




                [Attachment(s) from gordon bartlett included below]
                Guys
                  I have a 1937 Lincoln type 37 coming in the near future .Aluminum Body ,steel fenders .
                The issue of using tools which I used on steel working . Do I have to clean tools {If possible } or buy separate tools to use on the Aluminum Body so as not to start corrosion effects from dissimiler metals ?
                 Now to see if picture shows up .
                GordonB


                Attachment(s) from gordon bartlett
                1 of 1 Photo(s)

                My Pictures 007.jpg



                -- 
                
                http://www.ferguson sculpture. com
                Sculptures in copper and other metals

              • Gordon Bartlett
                Richard They say about the same as the M/Benz dealer here. Iron Particle contamination is the cause of the problem .M/Benz requires separate tools and location
                Message 8 of 12 , Jun 2, 2009
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                  Richard
                  They say about the same as the M/Benz dealer here. Iron Particle contamination is the cause of the problem .M/Benz requires separate tools and location in shop just for Aluminum work .
                  Well I don't see myself buying new set of tools ,so I'll have to work on self- discipline in this area .
                  Working alone has it's advantages.
                  I'll do a little more digging and see what I come up with .
                  Thanks ,GordonB
                • Kent White
                  Hi Gordon, I wrote an article in ABRN years ago about doing this kind of metal work. It was detailed and researched and, reasonable. In response there was
                  Message 9 of 12 , Jun 5, 2009
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                    Hi Gordon,
                    I wrote an article in ABRN years ago about doing this kind of metal work. It was detailed and researched and, reasonable. In response there was another article printed there that was so extreme I would think only an expensive auto production/repair facility could afford to equip and run that way. I know my methods work and I know why. I also know that the expensive factories are publicly driving the metal working setups into the "quarantine" situations and are touting this as the only way to operate a shop. I can only assume they are dealing with unskilled and uninformed labor (read: illiterate immigrants, legal or otherwise) and for their own preservation they have to employ draconic shop practices. (I would not normally assume that Jamaican, Moroccan and Kenyan youths, for instance, are well-informed on good metal-shop practices.)
                     
                    For the innumerable aluminum/steel jobs I have done, including the high-end prewar coachbuilt rarities, I keep the striking tools clean by sanding the faces (outside the shop !) with 320 paper. Body files are cleaned with file card and ss toothbrush. Abrasives are quarantined, marked "for steel" and "for aluminum." Any steel grit is cleaned up right away, and most cutting and grinding on steel is done either in a "dirt room" or outside.
                     
                    You simply cannot have hot sparks (or grinder grit) landing on aluminum without subsequent paint problems - unless you know how to acid etch enough to get the particles out.
                    Don't hammer on aluminum with steel grit on your tool faces.
                    Don't sand aluminum with abrasives that were used previously on steel.
                    It is all simple enough, but - then again - in Southern CA in the 1980's craftsmen were all of a sudden having serious problems with their leadwork and aluminum gas welding because they had lost the "how this is done" information trail. Commons sense is sufficient - if the craftsman grasps metallurgy and chemistry and the potential behind the supplies he is using.
                     
                    I guess I've rattled on enough,
                    Best of success,

                    Kent

                    Kent White
                    TM Technologies
                    www.tinmantech.com

                     
                     


                    From: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metalshapers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gordon bartlett
                    Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 5:37 PM
                    To: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [metalshapers] Contamination of Aluminum by steel particles [1 Attachment]

                    Guys
                      I have a 1937 Lincoln type 37 coming in the near future .Aluminum Body ,steel fenders .
                    The issue of using tools which I used on steel working . Do I have to clean tools {If possible } or buy separate tools to use on the Aluminum Body so as not to start corrosion effects from dissimiler metals ?
                     Now to see if picture shows up .
                    GordonB 

                    Internal Virus Database is out of date.
                    Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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                  • CGRAF
                    I think tt asked how can a smooth faced hammer pick up iron contamination. Easily enough as the amount necessary to cause a problem is almost on the atomic
                    Message 10 of 12 , Jun 5, 2009
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                      I think tt asked how can a smooth faced hammer pick up iron contamination.
                      Easily enough as the amount necessary to cause a problem is almost on
                      the atomic level.
                      Just because you cannot see it does not mean that it is not there.
                      (Speaking from a not so pleasant issue working stainless.)

                      Your precautions seem entirely reasonable to me.
                      The next step would be quarantined tools and a clean room.
                      That would have to be one heck of a project or perhaps a series of them
                      to go that far.

                      Mike Graf


                      Kent White wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Gordon,
                      > I wrote an article in ABRN years ago about doing this kind of metal
                      > work. It was detailed and researched and, reasonable. In response there
                      > was another article printed there that was so extreme I would think only
                      > an expensive auto production/repair facility could afford to equip and
                      > run that way. I know my methods work and I know why. I also know that
                      > the expensive factories are publicly driving the metal working setups
                      > into the "quarantine" situations and are touting this as the only way to
                      > operate a shop. I can only assume they are dealing with unskilled and
                      > uninformed labor (read: illiterate immigrants, legal or otherwise) and
                      > for their own preservation they have to employ draconic shop practices.
                      > (I would not normally assume that Jamaican, Moroccan and Kenyan youths,
                      > for instance, are well-informed on good metal-shop practices.)
                      >
                      > For the innumerable aluminum/steel jobs I have done, including the
                      > high-end prewar coachbuilt rarities, I keep the striking tools clean by
                      > sanding the faces (outside the shop !) with 320 paper. Body files are
                      > cleaned with file card and ss toothbrush. Abrasives are quarantined,
                      > marked "for steel" and "for aluminum." Any steel grit is cleaned up
                      > right away, and most cutting and grinding on steel is done either in a
                      > "dirt room" or outside.
                      >
                      > You simply cannot have hot sparks (or grinder grit) landing on aluminum
                      > without subsequent paint problems - unless you know how to acid etch
                      > enough to get the particles out.
                      > Don't hammer on aluminum with steel grit on your tool faces.
                      > Don't sand aluminum with abrasives that were used previously on steel.
                      > It is all simple enough, but - then again - in Southern CA in the 1980's
                      > craftsmen were all of a sudden having serious problems with their
                      > leadwork and aluminum gas welding because they had lost the "how this is
                      > done" information trail. Commons sense is sufficient - if the craftsman
                      > grasps metallurgy and chemistry and the potential behind the supplies he
                      > is using.
                      >
                      > I guess I've rattled on enough,
                      > Best of success,
                      >
                      > Kent
                    • Kent White
                      If I remember correctly, stainless steel has a temper sufficiently high enough to accept steel particles from carbon steel wire brushes, hammers, dollys, and
                      Message 11 of 12 , Jun 5, 2009
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                        If I remember correctly, stainless steel has a temper sufficiently high
                        enough to "accept" steel particles from carbon steel wire brushes, hammers,
                        dollys, and etc.

                        Aluminum might not be that hard, even at the T6 temper on 7075 alloy to do
                        the same thing. But I may be wrong. Stainless has its issues, though, in
                        welding, brazing, filing, grinding, and general handling. However, in
                        general fab shops I see 5052 H34 aluminum sheets routinely slid over carbon
                        steel shear beds, brake dies, punch tables, and other work stations without
                        hyper-sensitive precautions, and these parts are for hospital and electronic
                        assemblies.

                        Kent

                        Kent White
                        TM Technologies
                        www.tinmantech.com





                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:metalshapers@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of CGRAF
                        Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 9:38 AM
                        To: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [metalshapers] Contamination of Aluminum by steel particles

                        I think tt asked how can a smooth faced hammer pick up iron contamination.
                        Easily enough as the amount necessary to cause a problem is almost on the
                        atomic level.
                        Just because you cannot see it does not mean that it is not there.
                        (Speaking from a not so pleasant issue working stainless.)

                        Your precautions seem entirely reasonable to me.
                        The next step would be quarantined tools and a clean room.
                        That would have to be one heck of a project or perhaps a series of them to
                        go that far.

                        Mike Graf


                        Kent White wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Gordon,
                        > I wrote an article in ABRN years ago about doing this kind of metal
                        > work. It was detailed and researched and, reasonable. In response
                        > there was another article printed there that was so extreme I would
                        > think only an expensive auto production/repair facility could afford
                        > to equip and run that way. I know my methods work and I know why. I
                        > also know that the expensive factories are publicly driving the metal
                        > working setups into the "quarantine" situations and are touting this
                        > as the only way to operate a shop. I can only assume they are dealing
                        > with unskilled and uninformed labor (read: illiterate immigrants,
                        > legal or otherwise) and for their own preservation they have to employ
                        draconic shop practices.
                        > (I would not normally assume that Jamaican, Moroccan and Kenyan
                        > youths, for instance, are well-informed on good metal-shop practices.)
                        >
                        > For the innumerable aluminum/steel jobs I have done, including the
                        > high-end prewar coachbuilt rarities, I keep the striking tools clean
                        > by sanding the faces (outside the shop !) with 320 paper. Body files
                        > are cleaned with file card and ss toothbrush. Abrasives are
                        > quarantined, marked "for steel" and "for aluminum." Any steel grit is
                        > cleaned up right away, and most cutting and grinding on steel is done
                        > either in a "dirt room" or outside.
                        >
                        > You simply cannot have hot sparks (or grinder grit) landing on
                        > aluminum without subsequent paint problems - unless you know how to
                        > acid etch enough to get the particles out.
                        > Don't hammer on aluminum with steel grit on your tool faces.
                        > Don't sand aluminum with abrasives that were used previously on steel.
                        > It is all simple enough, but - then again - in Southern CA in the
                        > 1980's craftsmen were all of a sudden having serious problems with
                        > their leadwork and aluminum gas welding because they had lost the "how
                        > this is done" information trail. Commons sense is sufficient - if the
                        > craftsman grasps metallurgy and chemistry and the potential behind the
                        > supplies he is using.
                        >
                        > I guess I've rattled on enough,
                        > Best of success,
                        >
                        > Kent


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                      • gordon bartlett
                        Kent I have the first and secound article s from ABRN in 1995 from my Dark Days of collison employment . I gleened a lot from when I first read them ,I d
                        Message 12 of 12 , Jun 5, 2009
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                           Kent
                                 I have the first and secound   article's from ABRN in 1995  from my "Dark Days" of collison employment . I gleened a lot from when I first read them ,I'd say it's time for  a review . I'm pleased to see the Common sense approach will pretty much cover my needs . It would quite hard to Quarantine my area as it's 1300 sq ' with 2000 sq' of tools <grin>  . While doing the Streamliner I keep most tools separated and clean with this in mind . Jason Small the Painter has reported no problems to me and it's been a year plus since I worked on it . 
                          I like  to procede with some working knowledge instead of blindly getting into the job and have problems in the end result . Why do otherwise ???
                           I appreciate your information Kent and everyone else who returned information .
                           Yours, GordonB
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 10:20 AM
                          Subject: RE: [metalshapers] Contamination of Aluminum by steel particles

                           
                          Hi Gordon,
                          I wrote an article in ABRN years ago about doing this kind of metal work. It was detailed and researched and, reasonable. In response there was another article printed there that was so extreme I would think only an expensive auto production/repair facility could afford to equip and run that way. I know my methods work and I know why. I also know that the expensive factories are publicly driving the metal working setups into the "quarantine" situations and are touting this as the only way to operate a shop. I can only assume they are dealing with unskilled and uninformed labor (read: illiterate immigrants, legal or otherwise) and for their own preservation they have to employ draconic shop practices. (I would not normally assume that Jamaican, Moroccan and Kenyan youths, for instance, are well-informed on good metal-shop practices.)
                           
                          For the innumerable aluminum/steel jobs I have done, including the high-end prewar coachbuilt rarities, I keep the striking tools clean by sanding the faces (outside the shop !) with 320 paper. Body files are cleaned with file card and ss toothbrush. Abrasives are quarantined, marked "for steel" and "for aluminum." Any steel grit is cleaned up right away, and most cutting and grinding on steel is done either in a "dirt room" or outside.
                           
                          You simply cannot have hot sparks (or grinder grit) landing on aluminum without subsequent paint problems - unless you know how to acid etch enough to get the particles out.
                          Don't hammer on aluminum with steel grit on your tool faces.
                          Don't sand aluminum with abrasives that were used previously on steel.
                          It is all simple enough, but - then again - in Southern CA in the 1980's craftsmen were all of a sudden having serious problems with their leadwork and aluminum gas welding because they had lost the "how this is done" information trail. Commons sense is sufficient - if the craftsman grasps metallurgy and chemistry and the potential behind the supplies he is using.
                           
                          I guess I've rattled on enough,
                          Best of success,

                          Kent

                          Kent White
                          TM Technologies
                          www.tinmantech. com

                           
                           


                          From: metalshapers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:metalshaper s@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of gordon bartlett
                          Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 5:37 PM
                          To: metalshapers@ yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: [metalshapers] Contamination of Aluminum by steel particles [1 Attachment]

                          Guys
                            I have a 1937 Lincoln type 37 coming in the near future .Aluminum Body ,steel fenders .
                          The issue of using tools which I used on steel working . Do I have to clean tools {If possible } or buy separate tools to use on the Aluminum Body so as not to start corrosion effects from dissimiler metals ?
                           Now to see if picture shows up .
                          GordonB 

                          Internal Virus Database is out of date.
                          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
                          Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2033 - Release Date: 3/31/2009 1:05 PM

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