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Re: [metalshapers] Re: annealing sheet steel

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  • Terry Cowan
    ... For the record -- what we have always called AK 10-20 years ago really does not exist any more (or at least is now called something else) ... almost all
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 31, 2003
      At 04:06 AM 9/1/03 +0000, you wrote:
      >Hi Terry,
      >
      >Hmmmmmm....good advice about switching steels, but easier said than
      >done. Some guys on the list are having a hard time finding AK, much
      >less the more special stuff.


      For the record -- what we have always called AK 10-20 years ago really does
      not exist any more (or at least is now called something else) ... almost
      all cold rolled sheet steel is now AK (aluminum killed) -- or SK (silicone
      killed) -- and now often called "special killed" to encompass both aluminum
      and silicone. So if you just ask for AK now-a-days there is no telling
      what you may get.

      Under the new umbrella spec. of A.S.T.M. 1008, there is DS (drawing steel),
      DDS (deep drawing steel), EDDS (Extra deep drawing steel), and EDDSIF
      (extra deep drawing steel Interstitial-Free) steel specifications.


      It is really confusing for someone trying to by steel now because most of
      the suppliers have not switched to the new classification and are still
      using the old terms -- because their customers are not educated about the
      change and the supplier doesn't want to do the educating, including
      Hokin-katz which is one of the best places to buy
      from. http://www.hokin-katz.com

      If you want to try EDDSIF -- ask for Marshall Katz. Everything Hokin-katz
      sells is of the DDS, EDDS, AND EDDSIF quality. Or it was when I last
      talked to Marshall.

      I'm not up on the tariffs Doug mentioned -- so it may be a whole new ball
      game for all I know (smile).

      Terry



      >The steel industry is a total mess right now, apparently caused by
      >Bush's tariffs on foreign steel so I expect lots of the specials
      >will be harder to get until things settle down. In my business we
      >can't even buy smooth finished cold-rolled mild steel bars anymore.
      >
      >http://manufacturing.stanford.edu/ under "cars" has an interesting
      >series on stamping out panels for the '94 Mustangs. Gives you some
      >idea of the amount of steel Ford buys and why they can get about
      >anything they want while us small buyers will probably never have
      >access to the special steels.
      >
      >Anyway, also good advice about seeing his process. Most forming of
      >that type is done by drawing in combination with a little stretching
      >and shrinking so maybe he's trying to stretch too much.
      >
      >BTW, remember a while back someone posted a picture of a die he'd
      >help make for the rear fender on a Harley? That die cost nearly a
      >half million bucks. No wonder our poster is having trouble. That
      >Harley die or a similiar one is also shown on the site above.
      >
      >thanks,
      >
      >Doug
    • john johnson
      Hi, I asked my brother in law about this topic last time it was raised, he was a metallurgist at our local steel mill, cooking 200 ton cakes as he called it.
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 1, 2003
        Hi,
        I asked my brother in law about this topic last time it was raised, he
        was a metallurgist at our local steel mill, cooking 200 ton 'cakes' as he
        called it. He later did a lot of work in the research labs in improving
        steel quality, really knows his stuff in this area. Our Steelworks closed,
        they ditched the labs, and he now teaches science at high school. doh This
        is what he had to say, if I remember correctly.

        Mild steel can't be hardened much if at all by heat treatment, but it can be
        work hardened, which happens when you belt it with a hammer. Its grain
        structure becomes distorted, and if you go too far it tears. Interstitual
        free can be worked further because its structure is cleaner, and the tears
        usually start at stress risers in the structure caused by dirt, which are
        greatly reduced in the clean steel.

        Work hardened mild steel can be annealed by raising it to the correct
        temperature, holding it there for a time, then very slowly letting it cool.
        This allows some of the stresses in the structure to relax, and the grain
        structure is refined by the slow cooling. It can't repair tears in the
        structure caused by dirt though, but an arc furnace can!!! We still have two
        of those puppies here, great for fixing fords (oops, I got a ford now,
        better make that a kia)

        My take on that is to use the best quality steel you can find, and anneal
        any high stretch or shrink areas before the work hardening does too much
        damage.

        If you put a small half inch wide strip of steel in your vise, and bend it
        backwards and forwards, you can see the effects of work hardening. After the
        first bend, it will try to bend somewhere else, because of the work
        hardening. Could someone with an oxy set try this out, watch it harden, then
        try to anneal it, see if it will bend in the same spot after annealing?

        Wish I could get him on here for you, so you could get it from the horses
        mouth, instead of the other end!

        regards,
        John
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "firstusv" <highex@...>
        To: <metalshapers@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 9:27 AM
        Subject: [metalshapers] Re: annealing sheet steel


        > Annealing is softening of hardened steel. When you buy 'barn yard'
        > i.e., common low carbon steel it is already about as soft as you can
        > get it. As a matter of fact low carbon steel cannot really be
        > hardened, without the addition of carbon, which is what happens when
        > something is "case hardened." Case hardening applies additional
        > carbon to the surface of the steel, which when quenched, gives the
        > surface a hardened 'case,' it is just a few thou thick, leaving a
        > still soft core.
        >
        > If you really need a softer, more workable steel, you will need to go
        > to one of the drawing quality steels.
        >
        >
        > --- In metalshapers@yahoogroups.com, "stretchformer"
        > <glance1010@y...> wrote:
        > > anybody out there that give me any hlep on the possible benifits of
        > > annealing 20g. sheet steel for stretch forming?
        >
        >
        >
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        >
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        >
        >
      • Dick Raczuk
        John Ask your brother if that process is called stress relieving ??? Dick ... From: john johnson To: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 01,
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 1, 2003
          John
          Ask your brother if that process is called "stress relieving"???
          Dick
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 2:52 AM
          Subject: Re: [metalshapers] Re: annealing sheet steel

          Hi,
              I asked my brother in law about this topic last time it was raised, he
          was a metallurgist at our local steel mill, cooking 200 ton 'cakes' as he
          called it. He later did a lot of work in the research labs in improving
          steel quality, really knows his stuff in this area. Our Steelworks closed,
          they ditched the labs, and he now teaches science at high school. doh This
          is what he had to say, if I remember correctly.

          Mild steel can't be hardened much if at all by heat treatment, but it can be
          work hardened, which happens when you belt it with a hammer. Its grain
          structure becomes distorted, and if you go too far it tears. Interstitual
          free can be worked further because its structure is cleaner, and the tears
          usually start at stress risers in the structure caused by dirt, which are
          greatly reduced in the clean steel.

          Work hardened mild steel can be annealed by raising it to the correct
          temperature, holding it there for a time, then very slowly letting it cool.
          This allows some of the stresses in the structure to relax, and the grain
          structure is refined by the slow cooling. It can't repair tears in the
          structure caused by dirt though, but an arc furnace can!!! We still have two
          of those puppies here, great for fixing fords (oops, I got a ford now,
          better make that a kia)

          My take on that is to use the best quality steel you can find, and anneal
          any high stretch or shrink areas before the work hardening does too much
          damage.

          If you put a small half inch wide strip of steel in your vise, and bend it
          backwards and forwards, you can see the effects of work hardening. After the
          first bend, it will try to bend somewhere else, because of the work
          hardening. Could someone with an oxy set try this out, watch it harden, then
          try to anneal it, see if it will bend in the same spot after annealing?

          Wish I could get him on here for you, so you could get it from the horses
          mouth, instead of the other end!

          regards,
          John
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "firstusv" <highex@...>
          To: <metalshapers@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 9:27 AM
          Subject: [metalshapers] Re: annealing sheet steel


          > Annealing is softening of hardened steel. When you buy 'barn yard'
          > i.e., common low carbon steel it is already about as soft as you can
          > get it. As a matter of fact low carbon steel cannot really be
          > hardened, without the addition of carbon, which is what happens when
          > something is "case hardened."  Case hardening applies additional
          > carbon to the surface of the steel, which when quenched, gives the
          > surface a hardened 'case,' it is just a few thou thick, leaving a
          > still soft core.
          >
          > If you really need a softer, more workable steel, you will need to go
          > to one of the drawing quality steels.
          >
          >
          > --- In metalshapers@yahoogroups.com, "stretchformer"
          > <glance1010@y...> wrote:
          > > anybody out there that give me any hlep on the possible benifits of
          > > annealing 20g. sheet steel for stretch forming?
          >
          >
          >
          > If you do not wish to receive e-mails but do wish to maintain membership
          privileges -- simply edit your membership for "NO EMAIL" at the following
          link:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/metalshapers/join?referer=1
          >
          > To leave the group and discontinue all membership privileges -- send an
          e-mail to: metalshapers-unsubscribe@...
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >




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        • Kent White
          Dick, I believe stress relief is heating to 1500F and allowing an ambient (still) air quench (minutes). This appears to differ from heating to another
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 1, 2003
            Dick,
             
            I believe "stress relief" is heating to 1500F and allowing an ambient (still) air quench (minutes).
            This appears to differ from heating to another annealing temperature, and holding at that temperature for some minutes, and then enforcing a slow controlled cool (hours).
            It seems the process of heating to different temps, holding (or not) and then cooling at different rates gives rise to different results with the same grade of steel. Those given to the art of this science provide nice predictable products, somewhat at variance though, to what the homespun craftsman is capable of, weedburners and Tempilsticks notwithstanding.

            Kent

            Kent White
            TM Technologies
            www.tinmantech.com

             
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dick Raczuk [mailto:stutz31@...]
            Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 9:29 AM
            To: metalshapers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [metalshapers] Re: annealing sheet steel

            John
            Ask your brother if that process is called "stress relieving"???
            Dick
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 2:52 AM
            Subject: Re: [metalshapers] Re: annealing sheet steel

            Hi,
                I asked my brother in law about this topic last time it was raised, he
            was a metallurgist at our local steel mill, cooking 200 ton 'cakes' as he
            called it. He later did a lot of work in the research labs in improving
            steel quality, really knows his stuff in this area. Our Steelworks closed,
            they ditched the labs, and he now teaches science at high school. doh This
            is what he had to say, if I remember correctly.

            Mild steel can't be hardened much if at all by heat treatment, but it can be
            work hardened, which happens when you belt it with a hammer. Its grain
            structure becomes distorted, and if you go too far it tears. Interstitual
            free can be worked further because its structure is cleaner, and the tears
            usually start at stress risers in the structure caused by dirt, which are
            greatly reduced in the clean steel ........."
             
             
               To leave the group and discontinue all membership privileges -- send an e-mail to: metalshapers-unsubscribe@...


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • stingshp2001
            Guy s There was some ques. on Annealing CRS , well i finely found that post copied in my notebook .It s from Kent White - post #32206, Simple old fashion
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 5, 2003
              Guy's
              There was some ques. on Annealing CRS , well i finely found
              that post copied in my notebook .It's from Kent White - post #32206,
              Simple old fashion stuff that was used years ago.
              Gordon B
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