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Re: no effort is doomed [be aware of false gurus]

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  • texasbg2000
    ... Maharshi ... which the = ... myself unable= ... blankness. ... secure ete= ... maintained for = ... thought. ... of though= ... in as us= ... years, ...
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 5 1:05 PM
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
      <mi_nok@y...> wrote:

      >
      > The following is a dialogue between a questioner and Sri Ramana
      Maharshi
      >
      > from the book "Be as you are" edited by David Godman:
      >
      > Questioner: "When I am engaged in inquiry as to the source from
      which the =
      > 'I' springs,
      >
      > I arrive at a stage of stillness of mind beyond which I find
      myself unable=
      > to proceed further.
      >
      > I have no thought of any kind and there is an emptiness, a
      blankness.
      >
      > A mild light pervades and I feel that it is myself bodiless.
      >
      > I have neither cognition nor vision of body and form.
      >
      > The experience lasts nearly half an hour and is pleasing.
      >
      > Would I be correct in concluding that all that was necessary to
      secure ete=
      > rnal happiness,
      >
      > that is freedom or salvation or whatever one calls it,
      >
      > was to continue the practice till this experience could be
      maintained for =
      > hours,
      >
      > days and months together?"
      >
      > Maharshi: "This does not mean salvation.
      >
      > Such a condition is termed manolaya or temporary stillness of
      thought.
      >
      > Manolaya means concentration, temporarily arresting the movement
      of though=
      > ts.
      >
      > As soon as this concentration ceases, thoughts, old and new, rush
      in as us=
      > ual;
      >
      > and even if this temporary lulling of mind should last a thousand
      years,
      >
      > it will never lead to total destruction of thought,
      >
      > which is what is called liberation from birth and death.
      >
      > The practitioner must therefore be ever on the alert and inquire
      within as=
      > to who has this experience,
      >
      > who realizes its pleasantness.
      >
      > Without this inquiry he will go into a long trance or deep sleep
      (yoga nid=
      > ra).
      >
      > Due to the absence of a proper guide at this stage of spiritual
      practice,
      >
      > many have been deluded and fallen a prey to a false sense of
      liberation
      >
      > and only a few have managed to reach the goal safely."
      >
      > The key to understanding the difference between Papaji's
      >
      > teaching, and Sri Ramana Maharshi's Teaching,
      >
      > and why Sri Ramana Maharshi's Self-Inquiry leads to
      >
      > Liberation and why Papaji's keep quiet, no effort approach
      >
      > did not lead to liberation, and never can lead to liberation
      >
      > lies in the above quoted passage from the book
      >
      > "Be as you are"
      > Sri Ramana Maharshi points out in the above passage
      >  
      > that keeping quiet, stillness of the mind can never lead to
      liberation,
      >  
      > and Sri Ramana Maharshi says that it produces a false sense of
      liberation.
      >  
      > So once again read the dialogue again and again until you see it.
      >  
      > Papaji has made it clear that no one was liberated who came to see
      him.
      >  
      > Papaji has made it clear that many who came to see him have fooled
      others
      >  
      > into believing they are Liberated.
      >  
      > Sri Ramana Maharshi in the above quote shows why Papaji's
      >  
      > no effort, just keep quiet approach can never lead to liberation,
      >  
      > and does lead to a false sense of liberation.
      >  
      > Therefore, what is truly amazing about the above quote by
      >  
      > Sri Ramana Maharshi is that Sri Ramana Maharshi
      >  
      > predicted the exact results that Papaji had.
      >  
      > What is needed for  liberation,
      >  
      > according to Sri Ramana Maharshi
      >  
      > Is to  continually  inquire  "Who am I?"
      >  
      > When the mind is quiet, even then one must inquire
      >  
      > Who  is  perceiving the quiet?
      >  
      > Or who realizes its pleasantness?
      >  
      > Because the goal is to destroy the ego notion permanently
      >  
      > so that one can remain in Permanent Silence,
      >  
      > not to keep quiet, which will  only be temporary.
      >  
      > Sri Ramana Maharshi makes this same point
      >  
      > in the book "Who am I?"
      >  
      > That all other methods other than Self-inquiry
      >  
      > only temporarily still the mind,
      >  
      > and that  every time a thought arises one should inquire
      >  
      > "To whom do these thoughts arise?"
      >  
      > No matter how many thoughts arise,
      >  
      > every time one should inquire "To whom do these thoughts arise"
      >  
      > according to Sri Ramana in the book "Who am I?".
      >  
      > I wonder how many of those many who have been deluded
      >  
      > and fallen prey to a false sense of liberation
      >  
      > are now teaching,  giving satsang, etc.?
      >  
      > One might say: 'Papaji also taught Self-Inquiry'
      >  
      > True, however Papaji would say ask the question 'Who am I?' only
      once
      >  
      > and then keep quiet and make no effort.
      >  
      > Sri Ramana has pointed out why this approach to Self-Inquiry
      >  
      > can never lead to  liberation.
      >  
      > The inquiry must be continuous and accompanied by intense
      >  
      > effort according to Sri Ramana.
      >  
      > All the vasanas, and thoughts and impressions must be
      >  
      > Destroyed one by one for liberation according
      >  
      > to Sri Ramana.
      >  
      > 99.99% of the time Papaji taught no effort,  no practice.
      >  
      > 99.99% of the time Sri Ramana taught intense effort
      >  
      >  and continuous practice
      >  
      > during all the waking hours.
      >  
      > The two Teachings are completely different.
      >  
      > Papaji's Teaching did not work.
      >  
      > According to Papaji not a single human being who came to see him
      was libera=
      > ted.

      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
      <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > In the following dialogue Sri Ramana Maharshi points out why
      >
      > Papaji's way of "just keep quiet, make no effort" was doomed to
      failure.
      >
      > Sri Ramana predicts the very results that Papaji's way produced
      >
      > i.e. only the temporary stilling of thought and not liberation.

      >

      From "Who Am I?" by Sri Ramana Maharshi from The Collected Works (Sri
      Ramanashram)

      1. Who am I.

      The gross body which is composed of the seven humours, I am not;
      the five cognitive sense organs, viz. the senses of hearing, touch,
      sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective objects,
      viz. sound, touch, colour, taste, and odour, I am not; the five
      conative sense organs, viz. the organs of speech, locomotion,
      grasping, excretion and procreation, which have as their respective
      functions, speaking, moving, grasping, excreting and enjoying, I am
      not; the five vital airs, prana, etc., which perform respectively
      the functionns of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind which
      thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with the
      residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no objects
      and not functionings, I am not.

      2. If I am none of these, then who am I?

      After negating all of the above mentioned as 'not this', 'not
      this', that Awareness which alone remains-that I am.

      ~~~~~~~`

      Chapter II- Practice

      1. What is the method of practice?

      As the Self of a person who tries to attain Self-realization is
      not different from him and as there is nothing other than or superior
      to him to be attained by him, Self-realization being only the
      realization of one's own nature, the seeker of liberation realizes,
      without doubts or misconceptions, his real nature by distinguishing
      the eternal from the transient, and never swerves from his natural
      state. THIS IS KNOWN AS THE PRACTICE OF KNOWLEDGE. This is the
      enquiry leading to Self-realization.

      2. Can this path of enquiry be followed by all aspirants?

      This is suitable only for ripe souls. The rest should follow
      different methods according to the state of their minds.

      Dear Karta:

      I capitalized one phrase above to denote that enquiry once
      understood is no longer asking a question as I understand the quotes
      by Godman to be saying.

      It is more like an abidance. I was looking for the quote where he
      was asked about diving deep to ask the question, Who Am I? and he
      said something like, No, once you are down deep why dive again?
      Instead I found the passages above which may be clearer.

      I of course don't disagree with what Sri Ramana was saying in
      Godman's piece, but how it was used as a definitive description of
      Self Enquiry.

      Love
      Bobby G.
    • satkartar7
      ... hi Bobby, thanks for being patient with me and pointing out the abiding there is no way that I ll learn to express myself clearly, so I quoted the above;
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 5 2:53 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        > > The following is a dialogue between a questioner and Sri Ramana
        > Maharshi
        > >
        > > from the book "Be as you are" edited by David Godman:
        > >
        > > Questioner: "When I am engaged in inquiry as to the source from
        > which the =
        > > 'I' springs,
        > >
        > > I arrive at a stage of stillness of mind beyond which I find
        > myself unable=
        > > to proceed further.
        > >
        > > I have no thought of any kind and there is an emptiness, a
        > blankness.
        > >
        > > A mild light pervades and I feel that it is myself bodiless.
        > >
        > > I have neither cognition nor vision of body and form.
        > >
        > > The experience lasts nearly half an hour and is pleasing.
        > >
        > > Would I be correct in concluding that all that was necessary to
        > secure ete=
        > > rnal happiness,
        > >
        > > that is freedom or salvation or whatever one calls it,
        > >
        > > was to continue the practice till this experience could be
        > maintained for =
        > > hours,
        > >
        > > days and months together?"
        > >
        > > Maharshi: "This does not mean salvation.
        > >
        > > Such a condition is termed manolaya or temporary stillness of
        > thought.
        > >
        > > Manolaya means concentration, temporarily arresting the movement
        > of though=
        > > ts.
        > >
        > > As soon as this concentration ceases, thoughts, old and new, rush
        > in as us=
        > > ual;
        > >
        > > and even if this temporary lulling of mind should last a thousand
        > years,
        > >
        > > it will never lead to total destruction of thought,
        > >
        > > which is what is called liberation from birth and death.
        > >
        > > The practitioner must therefore be ever on the alert and inquire
        > within as=
        > > to who has this experience,
        > >
        > > who realizes its pleasantness.
        > >
        > > Without this inquiry he will go into a long trance or deep sleep
        > (yoga nid=
        > > ra).
        > >
        > > Due to the absence of a proper guide at this stage of spiritual
        > practice,
        > >
        > > many have been deluded and fallen a prey to a false sense of
        > liberation
        > >
        > > and only a few have managed to reach the goal safely."
        > >
        > > The key to understanding the difference between Papaji's
        > >
        > > teaching, and Sri Ramana Maharshi's Teaching,
        > >
        > > and why Sri Ramana Maharshi's Self-Inquiry leads to
        > >
        > > Liberation and why Papaji's keep quiet, no effort approach
        > >
        > > did not lead to liberation, and never can lead to liberation
        > >
        > > lies in the above quoted passage from the book
        > >
        > > "Be as you are"
        > > Sri Ramana Maharshi points out in the above passage
        > >  
        > > that keeping quiet, stillness of the mind can never lead to
        > liberation,
        > >  
        > > and Sri Ramana Maharshi says that it produces a false sense of
        > liberation.
        > >  
        > > So once again read the dialogue again and again until you see it.
        > >  
        > > Papaji has made it clear that no one was liberated who came to see
        > him.
        > >  
        > > Papaji has made it clear that many who came to see him have fooled
        > others
        > >  
        > > into believing they are Liberated.
        > >  
        > > Sri Ramana Maharshi in the above quote shows why Papaji's
        > >  
        > > no effort, just keep quiet approach can never lead to liberation,
        > >  
        > > and does lead to a false sense of liberation.
        > >  
        > > Therefore, what is truly amazing about the above quote by
        > >  
        > > Sri Ramana Maharshi is that Sri Ramana Maharshi
        > >  
        > > predicted the exact results that Papaji had.
        > >  
        > > What is needed for  liberation,
        > >  
        > > according to Sri Ramana Maharshi
        > >  
        > > Is to  continually  inquire  "Who am I?"
        > >  
        > > When the mind is quiet, even then one must inquire
        > >  
        > > Who  is  perceiving the quiet?
        > >  
        > > Or who realizes its pleasantness?
        > >  
        > > Because the goal is to destroy the ego notion permanently
        > >  
        > > so that one can remain in Permanent Silence,
        > >  
        > > not to keep quiet, which will  only be temporary.
        > >  
        > > Sri Ramana Maharshi makes this same point
        > >  
        > > in the book "Who am I?"
        > >  
        > > That all other methods other than Self-inquiry
        > >  
        > > only temporarily still the mind,
        > >  
        > > and that  every time a thought arises one should inquire
        > >  
        > > "To whom do these thoughts arise?"
        > >  
        > > No matter how many thoughts arise,
        > >  
        > > every time one should inquire "To whom do these thoughts arise"
        > >  
        > > according to Sri Ramana in the book "Who am I?".
        > >  
        > > I wonder how many of those many who have been deluded
        > >  
        > > and fallen prey to a false sense of liberation
        > >  
        > > are now teaching,  giving satsang, etc.?
        > >  
        > > One might say: 'Papaji also taught Self-Inquiry'
        > >  
        > > True, however Papaji would say ask the question 'Who am I?' only
        > once
        > >  
        > > and then keep quiet and make no effort.
        > >  
        > > Sri Ramana has pointed out why this approach to Self-Inquiry
        > >  
        > > can never lead to  liberation.
        > >  
        > > The inquiry must be continuous and accompanied by intense
        > >  
        > > effort according to Sri Ramana.
        > >  
        > > All the vasanas, and thoughts and impressions must be
        > >  
        > > Destroyed one by one for liberation according
        > >  
        > > to Sri Ramana.
        > >  
        > > 99.99% of the time Papaji taught no effort,  no practice.
        > >  
        > > 99.99% of the time Sri Ramana taught intense effort
        > >  
        > >  and continuous practice
        > >  
        > > during all the waking hours.
        > >  
        > > The two Teachings are completely different.
        > >  
        > > Papaji's Teaching did not work.
        > >  
        > > According to Papaji not a single human being who came to see him
        > was libera=
        > > ted.
        >
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
        > <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > In the following dialogue Sri Ramana Maharshi points out why
        > >
        > > Papaji's way of "just keep quiet, make no effort" was doomed to
        > failure.
        > >
        > > Sri Ramana predicts the very results that Papaji's way produced
        > >
        > > i.e. only the temporary stilling of thought and not liberation.
        >
        > >
        >
        > From "Who Am I?" by Sri Ramana Maharshi from The Collected Works (Sri
        > Ramanashram)
        >
        > 1. Who am I.
        >
        > The gross body which is composed of the seven humours, I am not;
        > the five cognitive sense organs, viz. the senses of hearing, touch,
        > sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective objects,
        > viz. sound, touch, colour, taste, and odour, I am not; the five
        > conative sense organs, viz. the organs of speech, locomotion,
        > grasping, excretion and procreation, which have as their respective
        > functions, speaking, moving, grasping, excreting and enjoying, I am
        > not; the five vital airs, prana, etc., which perform respectively
        > the functionns of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind which
        > thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with the
        > residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no objects
        > and not functionings, I am not.
        >
        > 2. If I am none of these, then who am I?
        >
        > After negating all of the above mentioned as 'not this', 'not
        > this', that Awareness which alone remains-that I am.
        >
        > ~~~~~~~`
        >
        > Chapter II- Practice
        >
        > 1. What is the method of practice?
        >
        > As the Self of a person who tries to attain Self-realization is
        > not different from him and as there is nothing other than or superior
        > to him to be attained by him, Self-realization being only the
        > realization of one's own nature, the seeker of liberation realizes,
        > without doubts or misconceptions, his real nature by distinguishing
        > the eternal from the transient, and never swerves from his natural
        > state. THIS IS KNOWN AS THE PRACTICE OF KNOWLEDGE. This is the
        > enquiry leading to Self-realization.
        >
        > 2. Can this path of enquiry be followed by all aspirants?
        >
        > This is suitable only for ripe souls. The rest should follow
        > different methods according to the state of their minds.
        >
        > Dear Karta:
        >
        > I capitalized one phrase above to denote that enquiry once
        > understood is no longer asking a question as I understand the quotes
        > by Godman to be saying.
        >
        > It is more like an abidance. I was looking for the quote where he
        > was asked about diving deep to ask the question, Who Am I? and he
        > said something like, No, once you are down deep why dive again?
        > Instead I found the passages above which may be clearer.
        >
        > I of course don't disagree with what Sri Ramana was saying in
        > Godman's piece, but how it was used as a definitive description of
        > Self Enquiry.
        >
        > Love
        > Bobby G.
        hi Bobby,

        thanks for being patient with me and
        pointing out the 'abiding'

        there is no way that I'll learn to
        express myself clearly, so I quoted the above;

        I was pondering on, that it is harmful
        to stop the vichara premature and relax
        into a stance of guru-dom etc

        [still on the page with Ganagak and
        deluded guru-doms]

        as for me was made clear, that for her
        the MOST important thing is to be ACKNOWLEDGED and not to contribute
        and I feel bad that she is not
        posting anymore her wisdom and
        undertsanding


        love, Karta
      • texasbg2000
        ... (Sri ... not; ... touch, ... objects, ... respective ... am ... respectively ... which ... the ... objects ... this , not ... is ... superior ...
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 5 3:11 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          > > From "Who Am I?" by Sri Ramana Maharshi from The Collected Works
          (Sri
          > > Ramanashram)
          > >
          > > 1. Who am I.
          > >
          > > The gross body which is composed of the seven humours, I am
          not;
          > > the five cognitive sense organs, viz. the senses of hearing,
          touch,
          > > sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective
          objects,
          > > viz. sound, touch, colour, taste, and odour, I am not; the five
          > > conative sense organs, viz. the organs of speech, locomotion,
          > > grasping, excretion and procreation, which have as their
          respective
          > > functions, speaking, moving, grasping, excreting and enjoying, I
          am
          > > not; the five vital airs, prana, etc., which perform
          respectively
          > > the functionns of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind
          which
          > > thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with
          the
          > > residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no
          objects
          > > and not functionings, I am not.
          > >
          > > 2. If I am none of these, then who am I?
          > >
          > > After negating all of the above mentioned as 'not
          this', 'not
          > > this', that Awareness which alone remains-that I am.
          > >
          > > ~~~~~~~`
          > >
          > > Chapter II- Practice
          > >
          > > 1. What is the method of practice?
          > >
          > > As the Self of a person who tries to attain Self-realization
          is
          > > not different from him and as there is nothing other than or
          superior
          > > to him to be attained by him, Self-realization being only the
          > > realization of one's own nature, the seeker of liberation
          realizes,
          > > without doubts or misconceptions, his real nature by
          distinguishing
          > > the eternal from the transient, and never swerves from his
          natural
          > > state. THIS IS KNOWN AS THE PRACTICE OF KNOWLEDGE. This is the
          > > enquiry leading to Self-realization.
          > >
          > > 2. Can this path of enquiry be followed by all aspirants?
          > >
          > > This is suitable only for ripe souls. The rest should
          follow
          > > different methods according to the state of their minds.
          > >
          > > Dear Karta:
          > >
          > > I capitalized one phrase above to denote that enquiry once
          > > understood is no longer asking a question as I understand the
          quotes
          > > by Godman to be saying.
          > >
          > > It is more like an abidance. I was looking for the quote where
          he
          > > was asked about diving deep to ask the question, Who Am I? and he
          > > said something like, No, once you are down deep why dive again?
          > > Instead I found the passages above which may be clearer.
          > >
          > > I of course don't disagree with what Sri Ramana was saying in
          > > Godman's piece, but how it was used as a definitive description
          of
          > > Self Enquiry.
          > >
          > > Love
          > > Bobby G.
          > hi Bobby,
          >
          > thanks for being patient with me and
          > pointing out the 'abiding'
          >
          > there is no way that I'll learn to
          > express myself clearly, so I quoted the above;

          Hi Karta:

          I think it is a worthwhile distinction to make.

          >
          > I was pondering on, that it is harmful
          > to stop the vichara premature and relax
          > into a stance of guru-dom etc

          I see. Yes, the abidance is the beautiful part of life. No reason
          to stop it.

          >
          > [still on the page with Ganagak and
          > deluded guru-doms]
          >
          > as for me was made clear, that for her
          > the MOST important thing is to be ACKNOWLEDGED and not to
          contribute
          > and I feel bad that she is not
          > posting anymore her wisdom and
          > undertsanding

          We all have things to learn. I have been recently thinking of the
          group dynamic and how it is nice to have people around who can help
          with understanding. What I mean is that in a group, roles are
          assumed in relationship to other roles. The roles shift from person
          to person sometimes.

          The teacher becomes the student or the "far thinker" needs to be
          brought up short by the academician. The calm one and the agitated
          one, the experienced and in...well anyway.

          Refusal to change roles is a little irritating to me. But people can
          do as they wish.

          Love
          Bobby G.
          >
          >
          > love, Karta
        • satkartar7
          ... I am learning from everyone and wish the wise ones to post and I wish I woundn t bump into the socalled gurus thanks, Karta
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 5 4:29 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
            > > > From "Who Am I?" by Sri Ramana Maharshi from The Collected Works
            > (Sri
            > > > Ramanashram)
            > > >
            > > > 1. Who am I.
            > > >
            > > > The gross body which is composed of the seven humours, I am
            > not;
            > > > the five cognitive sense organs, viz. the senses of hearing,
            > touch,
            > > > sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective
            > objects,
            > > > viz. sound, touch, colour, taste, and odour, I am not; the five
            > > > conative sense organs, viz. the organs of speech, locomotion,
            > > > grasping, excretion and procreation, which have as their
            > respective
            > > > functions, speaking, moving, grasping, excreting and enjoying, I
            > am
            > > > not; the five vital airs, prana, etc., which perform
            > respectively
            > > > the functionns of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind
            > which
            > > > thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with
            > the
            > > > residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no
            > objects
            > > > and not functionings, I am not.
            > > >
            > > > 2. If I am none of these, then who am I?
            > > >
            > > > After negating all of the above mentioned as 'not
            > Hi Karta:
            >
            > I think it is a worthwhile distinction to make.
            >
            > >
            > > I was pondering on, that it is harmful
            > > to stop the vichara premature and relax
            > > into a stance of guru-dom etc
            >
            > I see. Yes, the abidance is the beautiful part of life. No reason
            > to stop it.
            >
            > >
            > > [still on the page with Ganagak and
            > > deluded guru-doms]
            > >
            > > as for me was made clear, that for her
            > > the MOST important thing is to be
            > > ACKNOWLEDGED and not to
            > > contribute
            > > and I feel bad that she is not
            > > posting anymore her wisdom and
            > > undertsanding
            >
            > We all have things to learn. I have been recently thinking of the
            > group dynamic and how it is nice to have people around who can help
            > with understanding. What I mean is that in a group, roles are
            > assumed in relationship to other roles. The roles shift from person
            > to person sometimes.
            >
            > The teacher becomes the student or the "far thinker" needs to be
            > brought up short by the academician. The calm one and the agitated
            > one, the experienced and in...well anyway.
            >
            > Refusal to change roles is a little irritating to me. But people can
            > do as they wish.
            >



            I am learning from everyone

            and wish the wise ones to post

            and I wish I woundn't bump into the
            socalled gurus

            thanks, Karta


            > Love
            > Bobby G.
            > >
            > >
            > > love, Karta
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