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no effort is doomed

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  • satkartar7
      In the following dialogue Sri Ramana Maharshi points out why   Papaji s way of just keep quiet, make no effort   was doomed to failure.   Sri Ramana
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 5, 2003
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      In the following dialogue Sri Ramana Maharshi points out why
       
      Papaji's way of "just keep quiet, make no effort"  was doomed to failure.
       
      Sri Ramana predicts the very results that Papaji's way produced
       
      i.e. only the temporary stilling of thought and not liberation.
       
      The following is a dialogue between a questioner and Sri Ramana Maharshi
       
      from the book "Be as you are" edited by David Godman:
       
      Questioner:  "When I am engaged in inquiry as to the source from which the =
      'I' springs,
       
       I arrive at a stage of stillness of mind beyond which I find myself unable=
      to proceed further.
       
       I have no thought of any kind and there is an emptiness, a blankness.
       
       A mild light pervades and I feel that it is myself bodiless.
       
       I have neither cognition nor vision of body and form.
       
       The experience lasts nearly half an hour and is pleasing.
       
       Would I be correct in concluding that all that was necessary to secure ete=
      rnal happiness,
       
       that is freedom or salvation or whatever one calls it,
       
       was to continue the practice till this experience could be maintained for =
      hours,
       
       days and months together?"
       
       Maharshi:   "This does not mean salvation.
       
       Such a condition is termed manolaya or temporary stillness of thought.
       
       Manolaya means concentration, temporarily arresting the movement of though=
      ts.
       
       As soon as this concentration ceases, thoughts, old and new, rush in as us=
      ual;
       
       and even if this temporary lulling of mind should last a thousand years,
       
       it will never lead to total destruction of thought,
       
       which is what is called liberation from birth and death.
       
       The practitioner must therefore be ever on the alert and inquire within as=
      to who has this experience,
       
       who realizes its pleasantness.
       
       Without this inquiry he will go into a long trance or deep sleep (yoga nid=
      ra).
       
       Due to the absence of a proper guide at this stage of spiritual practice,
       
       many have been deluded and fallen a prey to a false sense of liberation
       
       and only a few have managed to reach the goal safely."
       
      The key to understanding the difference between Papaji's
       
      teaching,  and Sri Ramana Maharshi's Teaching,
       
      and why Sri Ramana Maharshi's Self-Inquiry leads to
       
      Liberation and why Papaji's keep quiet, no effort approach
       
      did not lead to liberation, and never can lead to  liberation
       
      lies in the above quoted passage from the book
       
      "Be as you are"

      You can see a list of online bookstores by clicking:
       
      http://uarelove1.tripod.com/BOOKSTORES_8.htm
    • satkartar7
      Sri Ramana Maharshi points out in the above passage   that keeping quiet, stillness of the mind can never lead to liberation,   and Sri Ramana Maharshi says
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 5, 2003
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        Sri Ramana Maharshi points out in the above passage
         
        that keeping quiet, stillness of the mind can never lead to liberation,
         
        and Sri Ramana Maharshi says that it produces a false sense of liberation.
         
        So once again read the dialogue again and again until you see it.
         
        Papaji has made it clear that no one was liberated who came to see him.
         
        Papaji has made it clear that many who came to see him have fooled others
         
        into believing they are Liberated.
         
        Sri Ramana Maharshi in the above quote shows why Papaji's
         
        no effort, just keep quiet approach can never lead to liberation,
         
        and does lead to a false sense of liberation.
         
        Therefore, what is truly amazing about the above quote by
         
        Sri Ramana Maharshi is that Sri Ramana Maharshi
         
        predicted the exact results that Papaji had.
         
        What is needed for  liberation,
         
        according to Sri Ramana Maharshi
         
        Is to  continually  inquire  "Who am I?"
         
        When the mind is quiet, even then one must inquire
         
        Who  is  perceiving the quiet?
         
        Or who realizes its pleasantness?
         
        Because the goal is to destroy the ego notion permanently
         
        so that one can remain in Permanent Silence,
         
        not to keep quiet, which will  only be temporary.
         
        Sri Ramana Maharshi makes this same point
         
        in the book "Who am I?"
         
        That all other methods other than Self-inquiry
         
        only temporarily still the mind,
         
        and that  every time a thought arises one should inquire
         
        "To whom do these thoughts arise?"
         
        No matter how many thoughts arise,
         
        every time one should inquire "To whom do these thoughts arise"
         
        according to Sri Ramana in the book "Who am I?".
         
        I wonder how many of those many who have been deluded
         
        and fallen prey to a false sense of liberation
         
        are now teaching,  giving satsang, etc.?
         
        One might say: 'Papaji also taught Self-Inquiry'
         
        True, however Papaji would say ask the question 'Who am I?' only once
         
        and then keep quiet and make no effort.
         
        Sri Ramana has pointed out why this approach to Self-Inquiry
         
        can never lead to  liberation.
         
        The inquiry must be continuous and accompanied by intense
         
        effort according to Sri Ramana.
         
        All the vasanas, and thoughts and impressions must be
         
        Destroyed one by one for liberation according
         
        to Sri Ramana.
         
        99.99% of the time Papaji taught no effort,  no practice.
         
        99.99% of the time Sri Ramana taught intense effort
         
         and continuous practice
         
        during all the waking hours.
         
        The two Teachings are completely different.
         
        Papaji's Teaching did not work.
         
        According to Papaji not a single human being who came to see him was libera=
        ted.
         


        http://uarelove1.tripod.com/DISCREMENT.htm
      • texasbg2000
        ... Maharshi ... which the = ... myself unable= ... blankness. ... secure ete= ... maintained for = ... thought. ... of though= ... in as us= ... years, ...
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 5, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
          <mi_nok@y...> wrote:

          >
          > The following is a dialogue between a questioner and Sri Ramana
          Maharshi
          >
          > from the book "Be as you are" edited by David Godman:
          >
          > Questioner: "When I am engaged in inquiry as to the source from
          which the =
          > 'I' springs,
          >
          > I arrive at a stage of stillness of mind beyond which I find
          myself unable=
          > to proceed further.
          >
          > I have no thought of any kind and there is an emptiness, a
          blankness.
          >
          > A mild light pervades and I feel that it is myself bodiless.
          >
          > I have neither cognition nor vision of body and form.
          >
          > The experience lasts nearly half an hour and is pleasing.
          >
          > Would I be correct in concluding that all that was necessary to
          secure ete=
          > rnal happiness,
          >
          > that is freedom or salvation or whatever one calls it,
          >
          > was to continue the practice till this experience could be
          maintained for =
          > hours,
          >
          > days and months together?"
          >
          > Maharshi: "This does not mean salvation.
          >
          > Such a condition is termed manolaya or temporary stillness of
          thought.
          >
          > Manolaya means concentration, temporarily arresting the movement
          of though=
          > ts.
          >
          > As soon as this concentration ceases, thoughts, old and new, rush
          in as us=
          > ual;
          >
          > and even if this temporary lulling of mind should last a thousand
          years,
          >
          > it will never lead to total destruction of thought,
          >
          > which is what is called liberation from birth and death.
          >
          > The practitioner must therefore be ever on the alert and inquire
          within as=
          > to who has this experience,
          >
          > who realizes its pleasantness.
          >
          > Without this inquiry he will go into a long trance or deep sleep
          (yoga nid=
          > ra).
          >
          > Due to the absence of a proper guide at this stage of spiritual
          practice,
          >
          > many have been deluded and fallen a prey to a false sense of
          liberation
          >
          > and only a few have managed to reach the goal safely."
          >
          > The key to understanding the difference between Papaji's
          >
          > teaching, and Sri Ramana Maharshi's Teaching,
          >
          > and why Sri Ramana Maharshi's Self-Inquiry leads to
          >
          > Liberation and why Papaji's keep quiet, no effort approach
          >
          > did not lead to liberation, and never can lead to liberation
          >
          > lies in the above quoted passage from the book
          >
          > "Be as you are"
          > Sri Ramana Maharshi points out in the above passage
          >  
          > that keeping quiet, stillness of the mind can never lead to
          liberation,
          >  
          > and Sri Ramana Maharshi says that it produces a false sense of
          liberation.
          >  
          > So once again read the dialogue again and again until you see it.
          >  
          > Papaji has made it clear that no one was liberated who came to see
          him.
          >  
          > Papaji has made it clear that many who came to see him have fooled
          others
          >  
          > into believing they are Liberated.
          >  
          > Sri Ramana Maharshi in the above quote shows why Papaji's
          >  
          > no effort, just keep quiet approach can never lead to liberation,
          >  
          > and does lead to a false sense of liberation.
          >  
          > Therefore, what is truly amazing about the above quote by
          >  
          > Sri Ramana Maharshi is that Sri Ramana Maharshi
          >  
          > predicted the exact results that Papaji had.
          >  
          > What is needed for  liberation,
          >  
          > according to Sri Ramana Maharshi
          >  
          > Is to  continually  inquire  "Who am I?"
          >  
          > When the mind is quiet, even then one must inquire
          >  
          > Who  is  perceiving the quiet?
          >  
          > Or who realizes its pleasantness?
          >  
          > Because the goal is to destroy the ego notion permanently
          >  
          > so that one can remain in Permanent Silence,
          >  
          > not to keep quiet, which will  only be temporary.
          >  
          > Sri Ramana Maharshi makes this same point
          >  
          > in the book "Who am I?"
          >  
          > That all other methods other than Self-inquiry
          >  
          > only temporarily still the mind,
          >  
          > and that  every time a thought arises one should inquire
          >  
          > "To whom do these thoughts arise?"
          >  
          > No matter how many thoughts arise,
          >  
          > every time one should inquire "To whom do these thoughts arise"
          >  
          > according to Sri Ramana in the book "Who am I?".
          >  
          > I wonder how many of those many who have been deluded
          >  
          > and fallen prey to a false sense of liberation
          >  
          > are now teaching,  giving satsang, etc.?
          >  
          > One might say: 'Papaji also taught Self-Inquiry'
          >  
          > True, however Papaji would say ask the question 'Who am I?' only
          once
          >  
          > and then keep quiet and make no effort.
          >  
          > Sri Ramana has pointed out why this approach to Self-Inquiry
          >  
          > can never lead to  liberation.
          >  
          > The inquiry must be continuous and accompanied by intense
          >  
          > effort according to Sri Ramana.
          >  
          > All the vasanas, and thoughts and impressions must be
          >  
          > Destroyed one by one for liberation according
          >  
          > to Sri Ramana.
          >  
          > 99.99% of the time Papaji taught no effort,  no practice.
          >  
          > 99.99% of the time Sri Ramana taught intense effort
          >  
          >  and continuous practice
          >  
          > during all the waking hours.
          >  
          > The two Teachings are completely different.
          >  
          > Papaji's Teaching did not work.
          >  
          > According to Papaji not a single human being who came to see him
          was libera=
          > ted.

          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
          <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > In the following dialogue Sri Ramana Maharshi points out why
          >
          > Papaji's way of "just keep quiet, make no effort" was doomed to
          failure.
          >
          > Sri Ramana predicts the very results that Papaji's way produced
          >
          > i.e. only the temporary stilling of thought and not liberation.

          >

          From "Who Am I?" by Sri Ramana Maharshi from The Collected Works (Sri
          Ramanashram)

          1. Who am I.

          The gross body which is composed of the seven humours, I am not;
          the five cognitive sense organs, viz. the senses of hearing, touch,
          sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective objects,
          viz. sound, touch, colour, taste, and odour, I am not; the five
          conative sense organs, viz. the organs of speech, locomotion,
          grasping, excretion and procreation, which have as their respective
          functions, speaking, moving, grasping, excreting and enjoying, I am
          not; the five vital airs, prana, etc., which perform respectively
          the functionns of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind which
          thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with the
          residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no objects
          and not functionings, I am not.

          2. If I am none of these, then who am I?

          After negating all of the above mentioned as 'not this', 'not
          this', that Awareness which alone remains-that I am.

          ~~~~~~~`

          Chapter II- Practice

          1. What is the method of practice?

          As the Self of a person who tries to attain Self-realization is
          not different from him and as there is nothing other than or superior
          to him to be attained by him, Self-realization being only the
          realization of one's own nature, the seeker of liberation realizes,
          without doubts or misconceptions, his real nature by distinguishing
          the eternal from the transient, and never swerves from his natural
          state. THIS IS KNOWN AS THE PRACTICE OF KNOWLEDGE. This is the
          enquiry leading to Self-realization.

          2. Can this path of enquiry be followed by all aspirants?

          This is suitable only for ripe souls. The rest should follow
          different methods according to the state of their minds.

          Dear Karta:

          I capitalized one phrase above to denote that enquiry once
          understood is no longer asking a question as I understand the quotes
          by Godman to be saying.

          It is more like an abidance. I was looking for the quote where he
          was asked about diving deep to ask the question, Who Am I? and he
          said something like, No, once you are down deep why dive again?
          Instead I found the passages above which may be clearer.

          I of course don't disagree with what Sri Ramana was saying in
          Godman's piece, but how it was used as a definitive description of
          Self Enquiry.

          Love
          Bobby G.
        • satkartar7
          ... hi Bobby, thanks for being patient with me and pointing out the abiding there is no way that I ll learn to express myself clearly, so I quoted the above;
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 5, 2003
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            > > The following is a dialogue between a questioner and Sri Ramana
            > Maharshi
            > >
            > > from the book "Be as you are" edited by David Godman:
            > >
            > > Questioner: "When I am engaged in inquiry as to the source from
            > which the =
            > > 'I' springs,
            > >
            > > I arrive at a stage of stillness of mind beyond which I find
            > myself unable=
            > > to proceed further.
            > >
            > > I have no thought of any kind and there is an emptiness, a
            > blankness.
            > >
            > > A mild light pervades and I feel that it is myself bodiless.
            > >
            > > I have neither cognition nor vision of body and form.
            > >
            > > The experience lasts nearly half an hour and is pleasing.
            > >
            > > Would I be correct in concluding that all that was necessary to
            > secure ete=
            > > rnal happiness,
            > >
            > > that is freedom or salvation or whatever one calls it,
            > >
            > > was to continue the practice till this experience could be
            > maintained for =
            > > hours,
            > >
            > > days and months together?"
            > >
            > > Maharshi: "This does not mean salvation.
            > >
            > > Such a condition is termed manolaya or temporary stillness of
            > thought.
            > >
            > > Manolaya means concentration, temporarily arresting the movement
            > of though=
            > > ts.
            > >
            > > As soon as this concentration ceases, thoughts, old and new, rush
            > in as us=
            > > ual;
            > >
            > > and even if this temporary lulling of mind should last a thousand
            > years,
            > >
            > > it will never lead to total destruction of thought,
            > >
            > > which is what is called liberation from birth and death.
            > >
            > > The practitioner must therefore be ever on the alert and inquire
            > within as=
            > > to who has this experience,
            > >
            > > who realizes its pleasantness.
            > >
            > > Without this inquiry he will go into a long trance or deep sleep
            > (yoga nid=
            > > ra).
            > >
            > > Due to the absence of a proper guide at this stage of spiritual
            > practice,
            > >
            > > many have been deluded and fallen a prey to a false sense of
            > liberation
            > >
            > > and only a few have managed to reach the goal safely."
            > >
            > > The key to understanding the difference between Papaji's
            > >
            > > teaching, and Sri Ramana Maharshi's Teaching,
            > >
            > > and why Sri Ramana Maharshi's Self-Inquiry leads to
            > >
            > > Liberation and why Papaji's keep quiet, no effort approach
            > >
            > > did not lead to liberation, and never can lead to liberation
            > >
            > > lies in the above quoted passage from the book
            > >
            > > "Be as you are"
            > > Sri Ramana Maharshi points out in the above passage
            > >  
            > > that keeping quiet, stillness of the mind can never lead to
            > liberation,
            > >  
            > > and Sri Ramana Maharshi says that it produces a false sense of
            > liberation.
            > >  
            > > So once again read the dialogue again and again until you see it.
            > >  
            > > Papaji has made it clear that no one was liberated who came to see
            > him.
            > >  
            > > Papaji has made it clear that many who came to see him have fooled
            > others
            > >  
            > > into believing they are Liberated.
            > >  
            > > Sri Ramana Maharshi in the above quote shows why Papaji's
            > >  
            > > no effort, just keep quiet approach can never lead to liberation,
            > >  
            > > and does lead to a false sense of liberation.
            > >  
            > > Therefore, what is truly amazing about the above quote by
            > >  
            > > Sri Ramana Maharshi is that Sri Ramana Maharshi
            > >  
            > > predicted the exact results that Papaji had.
            > >  
            > > What is needed for  liberation,
            > >  
            > > according to Sri Ramana Maharshi
            > >  
            > > Is to  continually  inquire  "Who am I?"
            > >  
            > > When the mind is quiet, even then one must inquire
            > >  
            > > Who  is  perceiving the quiet?
            > >  
            > > Or who realizes its pleasantness?
            > >  
            > > Because the goal is to destroy the ego notion permanently
            > >  
            > > so that one can remain in Permanent Silence,
            > >  
            > > not to keep quiet, which will  only be temporary.
            > >  
            > > Sri Ramana Maharshi makes this same point
            > >  
            > > in the book "Who am I?"
            > >  
            > > That all other methods other than Self-inquiry
            > >  
            > > only temporarily still the mind,
            > >  
            > > and that  every time a thought arises one should inquire
            > >  
            > > "To whom do these thoughts arise?"
            > >  
            > > No matter how many thoughts arise,
            > >  
            > > every time one should inquire "To whom do these thoughts arise"
            > >  
            > > according to Sri Ramana in the book "Who am I?".
            > >  
            > > I wonder how many of those many who have been deluded
            > >  
            > > and fallen prey to a false sense of liberation
            > >  
            > > are now teaching,  giving satsang, etc.?
            > >  
            > > One might say: 'Papaji also taught Self-Inquiry'
            > >  
            > > True, however Papaji would say ask the question 'Who am I?' only
            > once
            > >  
            > > and then keep quiet and make no effort.
            > >  
            > > Sri Ramana has pointed out why this approach to Self-Inquiry
            > >  
            > > can never lead to  liberation.
            > >  
            > > The inquiry must be continuous and accompanied by intense
            > >  
            > > effort according to Sri Ramana.
            > >  
            > > All the vasanas, and thoughts and impressions must be
            > >  
            > > Destroyed one by one for liberation according
            > >  
            > > to Sri Ramana.
            > >  
            > > 99.99% of the time Papaji taught no effort,  no practice.
            > >  
            > > 99.99% of the time Sri Ramana taught intense effort
            > >  
            > >  and continuous practice
            > >  
            > > during all the waking hours.
            > >  
            > > The two Teachings are completely different.
            > >  
            > > Papaji's Teaching did not work.
            > >  
            > > According to Papaji not a single human being who came to see him
            > was libera=
            > > ted.
            >
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
            > <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > In the following dialogue Sri Ramana Maharshi points out why
            > >
            > > Papaji's way of "just keep quiet, make no effort" was doomed to
            > failure.
            > >
            > > Sri Ramana predicts the very results that Papaji's way produced
            > >
            > > i.e. only the temporary stilling of thought and not liberation.
            >
            > >
            >
            > From "Who Am I?" by Sri Ramana Maharshi from The Collected Works (Sri
            > Ramanashram)
            >
            > 1. Who am I.
            >
            > The gross body which is composed of the seven humours, I am not;
            > the five cognitive sense organs, viz. the senses of hearing, touch,
            > sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective objects,
            > viz. sound, touch, colour, taste, and odour, I am not; the five
            > conative sense organs, viz. the organs of speech, locomotion,
            > grasping, excretion and procreation, which have as their respective
            > functions, speaking, moving, grasping, excreting and enjoying, I am
            > not; the five vital airs, prana, etc., which perform respectively
            > the functionns of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind which
            > thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with the
            > residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no objects
            > and not functionings, I am not.
            >
            > 2. If I am none of these, then who am I?
            >
            > After negating all of the above mentioned as 'not this', 'not
            > this', that Awareness which alone remains-that I am.
            >
            > ~~~~~~~`
            >
            > Chapter II- Practice
            >
            > 1. What is the method of practice?
            >
            > As the Self of a person who tries to attain Self-realization is
            > not different from him and as there is nothing other than or superior
            > to him to be attained by him, Self-realization being only the
            > realization of one's own nature, the seeker of liberation realizes,
            > without doubts or misconceptions, his real nature by distinguishing
            > the eternal from the transient, and never swerves from his natural
            > state. THIS IS KNOWN AS THE PRACTICE OF KNOWLEDGE. This is the
            > enquiry leading to Self-realization.
            >
            > 2. Can this path of enquiry be followed by all aspirants?
            >
            > This is suitable only for ripe souls. The rest should follow
            > different methods according to the state of their minds.
            >
            > Dear Karta:
            >
            > I capitalized one phrase above to denote that enquiry once
            > understood is no longer asking a question as I understand the quotes
            > by Godman to be saying.
            >
            > It is more like an abidance. I was looking for the quote where he
            > was asked about diving deep to ask the question, Who Am I? and he
            > said something like, No, once you are down deep why dive again?
            > Instead I found the passages above which may be clearer.
            >
            > I of course don't disagree with what Sri Ramana was saying in
            > Godman's piece, but how it was used as a definitive description of
            > Self Enquiry.
            >
            > Love
            > Bobby G.
            hi Bobby,

            thanks for being patient with me and
            pointing out the 'abiding'

            there is no way that I'll learn to
            express myself clearly, so I quoted the above;

            I was pondering on, that it is harmful
            to stop the vichara premature and relax
            into a stance of guru-dom etc

            [still on the page with Ganagak and
            deluded guru-doms]

            as for me was made clear, that for her
            the MOST important thing is to be ACKNOWLEDGED and not to contribute
            and I feel bad that she is not
            posting anymore her wisdom and
            undertsanding


            love, Karta
          • texasbg2000
            ... (Sri ... not; ... touch, ... objects, ... respective ... am ... respectively ... which ... the ... objects ... this , not ... is ... superior ...
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 5, 2003
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              > > From "Who Am I?" by Sri Ramana Maharshi from The Collected Works
              (Sri
              > > Ramanashram)
              > >
              > > 1. Who am I.
              > >
              > > The gross body which is composed of the seven humours, I am
              not;
              > > the five cognitive sense organs, viz. the senses of hearing,
              touch,
              > > sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective
              objects,
              > > viz. sound, touch, colour, taste, and odour, I am not; the five
              > > conative sense organs, viz. the organs of speech, locomotion,
              > > grasping, excretion and procreation, which have as their
              respective
              > > functions, speaking, moving, grasping, excreting and enjoying, I
              am
              > > not; the five vital airs, prana, etc., which perform
              respectively
              > > the functionns of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind
              which
              > > thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with
              the
              > > residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no
              objects
              > > and not functionings, I am not.
              > >
              > > 2. If I am none of these, then who am I?
              > >
              > > After negating all of the above mentioned as 'not
              this', 'not
              > > this', that Awareness which alone remains-that I am.
              > >
              > > ~~~~~~~`
              > >
              > > Chapter II- Practice
              > >
              > > 1. What is the method of practice?
              > >
              > > As the Self of a person who tries to attain Self-realization
              is
              > > not different from him and as there is nothing other than or
              superior
              > > to him to be attained by him, Self-realization being only the
              > > realization of one's own nature, the seeker of liberation
              realizes,
              > > without doubts or misconceptions, his real nature by
              distinguishing
              > > the eternal from the transient, and never swerves from his
              natural
              > > state. THIS IS KNOWN AS THE PRACTICE OF KNOWLEDGE. This is the
              > > enquiry leading to Self-realization.
              > >
              > > 2. Can this path of enquiry be followed by all aspirants?
              > >
              > > This is suitable only for ripe souls. The rest should
              follow
              > > different methods according to the state of their minds.
              > >
              > > Dear Karta:
              > >
              > > I capitalized one phrase above to denote that enquiry once
              > > understood is no longer asking a question as I understand the
              quotes
              > > by Godman to be saying.
              > >
              > > It is more like an abidance. I was looking for the quote where
              he
              > > was asked about diving deep to ask the question, Who Am I? and he
              > > said something like, No, once you are down deep why dive again?
              > > Instead I found the passages above which may be clearer.
              > >
              > > I of course don't disagree with what Sri Ramana was saying in
              > > Godman's piece, but how it was used as a definitive description
              of
              > > Self Enquiry.
              > >
              > > Love
              > > Bobby G.
              > hi Bobby,
              >
              > thanks for being patient with me and
              > pointing out the 'abiding'
              >
              > there is no way that I'll learn to
              > express myself clearly, so I quoted the above;

              Hi Karta:

              I think it is a worthwhile distinction to make.

              >
              > I was pondering on, that it is harmful
              > to stop the vichara premature and relax
              > into a stance of guru-dom etc

              I see. Yes, the abidance is the beautiful part of life. No reason
              to stop it.

              >
              > [still on the page with Ganagak and
              > deluded guru-doms]
              >
              > as for me was made clear, that for her
              > the MOST important thing is to be ACKNOWLEDGED and not to
              contribute
              > and I feel bad that she is not
              > posting anymore her wisdom and
              > undertsanding

              We all have things to learn. I have been recently thinking of the
              group dynamic and how it is nice to have people around who can help
              with understanding. What I mean is that in a group, roles are
              assumed in relationship to other roles. The roles shift from person
              to person sometimes.

              The teacher becomes the student or the "far thinker" needs to be
              brought up short by the academician. The calm one and the agitated
              one, the experienced and in...well anyway.

              Refusal to change roles is a little irritating to me. But people can
              do as they wish.

              Love
              Bobby G.
              >
              >
              > love, Karta
            • satkartar7
              ... I am learning from everyone and wish the wise ones to post and I wish I woundn t bump into the socalled gurus thanks, Karta
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 5, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                > > > From "Who Am I?" by Sri Ramana Maharshi from The Collected Works
                > (Sri
                > > > Ramanashram)
                > > >
                > > > 1. Who am I.
                > > >
                > > > The gross body which is composed of the seven humours, I am
                > not;
                > > > the five cognitive sense organs, viz. the senses of hearing,
                > touch,
                > > > sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective
                > objects,
                > > > viz. sound, touch, colour, taste, and odour, I am not; the five
                > > > conative sense organs, viz. the organs of speech, locomotion,
                > > > grasping, excretion and procreation, which have as their
                > respective
                > > > functions, speaking, moving, grasping, excreting and enjoying, I
                > am
                > > > not; the five vital airs, prana, etc., which perform
                > respectively
                > > > the functionns of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind
                > which
                > > > thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with
                > the
                > > > residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no
                > objects
                > > > and not functionings, I am not.
                > > >
                > > > 2. If I am none of these, then who am I?
                > > >
                > > > After negating all of the above mentioned as 'not
                > Hi Karta:
                >
                > I think it is a worthwhile distinction to make.
                >
                > >
                > > I was pondering on, that it is harmful
                > > to stop the vichara premature and relax
                > > into a stance of guru-dom etc
                >
                > I see. Yes, the abidance is the beautiful part of life. No reason
                > to stop it.
                >
                > >
                > > [still on the page with Ganagak and
                > > deluded guru-doms]
                > >
                > > as for me was made clear, that for her
                > > the MOST important thing is to be
                > > ACKNOWLEDGED and not to
                > > contribute
                > > and I feel bad that she is not
                > > posting anymore her wisdom and
                > > undertsanding
                >
                > We all have things to learn. I have been recently thinking of the
                > group dynamic and how it is nice to have people around who can help
                > with understanding. What I mean is that in a group, roles are
                > assumed in relationship to other roles. The roles shift from person
                > to person sometimes.
                >
                > The teacher becomes the student or the "far thinker" needs to be
                > brought up short by the academician. The calm one and the agitated
                > one, the experienced and in...well anyway.
                >
                > Refusal to change roles is a little irritating to me. But people can
                > do as they wish.
                >



                I am learning from everyone

                and wish the wise ones to post

                and I wish I woundn't bump into the
                socalled gurus

                thanks, Karta


                > Love
                > Bobby G.
                > >
                > >
                > > love, Karta
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