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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: shabd Yoga /ganga

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  • Harvey Schneider
    ... From: G To: Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 2:10 PM Subject: [Meditation
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "G" <crystalkundalini@...>
      To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 2:10 PM
      Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: shabd Yoga /ganga


      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      > "satkartar7" <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
      > > > > > > WHAT IS THE NAM?
      > > > > >
      > > > > > shabd, OM, the "word" from the Bible
      > > > > >
      > > > > > <http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat/shabd-1.html>
      > > > >
      > > > > G: no that is the Nad ..... Nam is the 5 names the
      > > > > attributes... .
      > >
      > > no! your constant misunderstandings and
      > > interpratations are funny at best.
      > > the 5 names are theSimran, see on the
      > > above page
      > >
      > > Naam or Word - an in depth study of the Celestial Sound
      > Current or God into Expression Power called variously:
      > > Naam, Word, Music of the Spheres,
      > > Shabd, etc. "In the beginning was the
      > > Word, the Word was with God and the
      > > Word was God" The first portion of
      > > the book explains what Naam is and
      > > offers references from the various
      > > world religions. Subsequent chapters
      > > detail the various attributes of
      > > Naam and related issues. Available online.
      > >
      > > From the introduction: "While the
      > > mystics of all times and all climes
      > > tell us with one voice that this
      > > Inner Reality or Truth is not only a
      > > matter of intuition and feeling but
      > > of actual super-sensuous realization
      > > and it is in this connection that
      > > the study of Yoga - Surat Shabd Yoga
      > > in particular - reveals its
      > > importance.
      > >
      > > We cannot, if we really seek the
      > > Truth, afford to ignore spirituality,
      > > as so many modern thinkers have
      > > tended to do, for It is a highway
      > > to Truth, and as suggested, perhaps
      > > the only highway to Truth.
      > >
      > > It is in this context that an attempt
      > > has been made to explain in this book
      > > the basic concept (which of course
      > > is the same in spite of an endless
      > > variety of nomenclature) of the
      > > various words used by the Masters to
      > > signify the Wordless in His primordial manifestation - the life
      > current creating, sustaining and controlling the endless
      > creation."
      > >
      > > from:
      > >
      > > <http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat/kirpal.html>
      > >
      > >
      > > <http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/books.htm>
      >
      >
      > G: Om is still within the manifest and transient phenomena
      > ....... you must go beyond even the OM ...... you are depending
      > on a sound to be your guru ? yes this Om runs like a thread
      > throughout creation and it is the primodial sound of the energy
      > current but then what ?
      >
      > where does the OM proceed from ?
      > What is the Source beyond it ? Surrender to That .......

      Hi G[angaji] and Satkatar,
      As an old intiate of Kirpal Singh who wrote the book
      "Naam or Word" which was quoted from, I am a little
      ashamed of not knowing more about this teaching from
      inner experience. But perhaps I can clarify the theory a
      bit.
      Kirpal taught that the Source was all pervasive but could
      only be completed surrendered to or merged in by tracing
      the primordial creative force of the universe from its lowest
      links ringing within us (think tinnitis) through its intermediate
      ranges in the inner planes to its origin in the Source. This
      process is in some ways similar to Ramana's urging of
      seekers to go within and trace the "I" to its origin. Of
      course Ramana didn't speak of the sound current and it's
      not at all clear to me how the two teachings actually
      compare in their details.
      While it is clear that many recognized mystics have
      experienced and celebrated the glories of the the "naam"
      using various words for it as clearly shown in the book
      cited), Kirpal (and his school) have interpreted many
      Biblical passages (like the opening of Saint John's gospel
      where he refers to the Word or Logos) as referring to the
      same inner sound current. Historians don't have records
      to confirm these interpretations and they sometimes may
      sound a bit forced.
      Nevertheless, Sant Mat (The Path of the Masters) appears
      to me to be an authentic path of exploration of the inner
      reality of our being.
      Harvey
    • G
      ... /ganga ... ... life ... phenomena ... depending ... energy ... G: indeed any seen - heard - or
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey
        Schneider" <haarvi1@n...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "G" <crystalkundalini@h...>
        > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 2:10 PM
        > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: shabd Yoga
        /ganga
        >
        >
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        > > "satkartar7" <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > > > WHAT IS THE NAM?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > shabd, OM, the "word" from the Bible
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        <http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat/shabd-1.html>
        > > > > >
        > > > > > G: no that is the Nad ..... Nam is the 5 names the
        > > > > > attributes... .
        > > >
        > > > no! your constant misunderstandings and
        > > > interpratations are funny at best.
        > > > the 5 names are theSimran, see on the
        > > > above page
        > > >
        > > > Naam or Word - an in depth study of the Celestial Sound
        > > Current or God into Expression Power called variously:
        > > > Naam, Word, Music of the Spheres,
        > > > Shabd, etc. "In the beginning was the
        > > > Word, the Word was with God and the
        > > > Word was God" The first portion of
        > > > the book explains what Naam is and
        > > > offers references from the various
        > > > world religions. Subsequent chapters
        > > > detail the various attributes of
        > > > Naam and related issues. Available online.
        > > >
        > > > From the introduction: "While the
        > > > mystics of all times and all climes
        > > > tell us with one voice that this
        > > > Inner Reality or Truth is not only a
        > > > matter of intuition and feeling but
        > > > of actual super-sensuous realization
        > > > and it is in this connection that
        > > > the study of Yoga - Surat Shabd Yoga
        > > > in particular - reveals its
        > > > importance.
        > > >
        > > > We cannot, if we really seek the
        > > > Truth, afford to ignore spirituality,
        > > > as so many modern thinkers have
        > > > tended to do, for It is a highway
        > > > to Truth, and as suggested, perhaps
        > > > the only highway to Truth.
        > > >
        > > > It is in this context that an attempt
        > > > has been made to explain in this book
        > > > the basic concept (which of course
        > > > is the same in spite of an endless
        > > > variety of nomenclature) of the
        > > > various words used by the Masters to
        > > > signify the Wordless in His primordial manifestation - the
        life
        > > current creating, sustaining and controlling the endless
        > > creation."
        > > >
        > > > from:
        > > >
        > > > <http://santmat-meditation.net/santmat/kirpal.html>
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > <http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/books.htm>
        > >
        > >
        > > G: Om is still within the manifest and transient
        phenomena
        > > ....... you must go beyond even the OM ...... you are
        depending
        > > on a sound to be your guru ? yes this Om runs like a thread
        > > throughout creation and it is the primodial sound of the
        energy
        > > current but then what ?
        > >
        > > where does the OM proceed from ?
        > > What is the Source beyond it ? Surrender to That .......
        >
        > Hi G[angaji] and Satkatar,
        > As an old intiate of Kirpal Singh who wrote the book
        > "Naam or Word" which was quoted from, I am a little
        > ashamed of not knowing more about this teaching from
        > inner experience. But perhaps I can clarify the theory a
        > bit.
        > Kirpal taught that the Source was all pervasive but could
        > only be completed surrendered to or merged in by tracing
        > the primordial creative force of the universe from its lowest
        > links ringing within us (think tinnitis) through its intermediate
        > ranges in the inner planes to its origin in the Source. This
        > process is in some ways similar to Ramana's urging of
        > seekers to go within and trace the "I" to its origin. Of
        > course Ramana didn't speak of the sound current and it's
        > not at all clear to me how the two teachings actually
        > compare in their details.
        > While it is clear that many recognized mystics have
        > experienced and celebrated the glories of the the "naam"
        > using various words for it as clearly shown in the book
        > cited), Kirpal (and his school) have interpreted many
        > Biblical passages (like the opening of Saint John's gospel
        > where he refers to the Word or Logos) as referring to the
        > same inner sound current. Historians don't have records
        > to confirm these interpretations and they sometimes may
        > sound a bit forced.
        > Nevertheless, Sant Mat (The Path of the Masters) appears
        > to me to be an authentic path of exploration of the inner
        > reality of our being.
        > Harvey


        G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the realm of
        manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they while
        part of the Whole are still in a divisionary measure...... one must
        go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which they
        come ...... the light that is beyond all lights....... the unknowing
        which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is beyond all
        truths......

        shanti om
      • satkartar7
        ... go behind the energy oh! words! ya di ya da bla bla not possible!!! when you die peace
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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          > > Hi G[angaji] and Satkatar,
          > > As an old intiate of Kirpal Singh who wrote the book
          > > "Naam or Word" which was quoted from, I am a little
          > > ashamed of not knowing more about this teaching from
          > > inner experience. But perhaps I can clarify the theory a
          > > bit.
          > > Kirpal taught that the Source was all pervasive but could
          > > only be completed surrendered to or merged in by tracing
          > > the primordial creative force of the universe from its lowest
          > > links ringing within us (think tinnitis) through its intermediate
          > > ranges in the inner planes to its origin in the Source. This
          > > process is in some ways similar to Ramana's urging of
          > > seekers to go within and trace the "I" to its origin. Of
          > > course Ramana didn't speak of the sound current and it's
          > > not at all clear to me how the two teachings actually
          > > compare in their details.
          > > While it is clear that many recognized mystics have
          > > experienced and celebrated the glories of the the "naam"
          > > using various words for it as clearly shown in the book
          > > cited), Kirpal (and his school) have interpreted many
          > > Biblical passages (like the opening of Saint John's gospel
          > > where he refers to the Word or Logos) as referring to the
          > > same inner sound current. Historians don't have records
          > > to confirm these interpretations and they sometimes may
          > > sound a bit forced.
          > > Nevertheless, Sant Mat (The Path of the Masters) appears
          > > to me to be an authentic path of exploration of the inner
          > > reality of our being.
          > > Harvey
          >
          >
          > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the realm of
          > manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they while
          > part of the Whole are still in a divisionary measure...... one must
          > go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which they
          > come ...... the light that is beyond all lights....... the unknowing
          > which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is beyond all
          > truths......
          >
          > shanti om


          go behind the energy

          oh!

          words! ya di ya da bla bla

          not possible!!!

          when you die

          peace
        • Jason Fishman
          G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the realm of manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they while part of the Whole are
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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            G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still
            within the realm of
            manifest although varying degrees of subtle.......
            but they while
            part of the Whole are still in a divisionary
            measure...... one must
            go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which
            they
            come ...... the light that is beyond all
            lights....... the unknowing
            which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is
            beyond all
            truths......

            shanti om

            ------
            Lots of definable things not seen or heard. All
            emotions are unseen and unheard. I really think you've
            lost it, they're folks like you on ward 26!

            The beyond, the beyond, which is beyond all beyonds,
            isn't beyond anything, not even in silence.

            Looking at all that is, nothing that isn't uncovered
            is beyond the scope and there are plenty of nothings
            yet to be uncovered, within it.

            The mind can move one beyond the beyond that is beyond
            all beyonds. Yet no one is comming back with anything
            that is beyond. Source is source is source is source,
            that isn't comming from or going to anywhere. A mind
            does trap one there and it isn't above or below or
            through anything.

            Funny how the movie the matrix has people twisting and
            twirling about how the is that is is in the mind and
            if you can just make the mind do anything then in the
            physical one becomes a super-power-hero, as if. Lot's
            of blithering folks thinking they're chickens or
            super-heros in the looney bin :)

            The body is physical, the mind is beyond (so to
            speak), the soul is all unity that feeds the mind/body
            unit without form, without tangable dependence on any
            other. Why one cannot be satisfied with the who they
            are is what all the hoopla is about. Seems there are
            alot of overweight, unattractive (by the standards of
            the day) that are looking for the beyond that is
            beyond. Ahh to get the respect and love I deserve, as
            if. :)

            Peace and Love

            __________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
            http://sbc.yahoo.com
          • Harvey Schneider
            ... From: satkartar7 To: Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:39 PM Subject: [Meditation Society
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "satkartar7" <mi_nok@...>
              To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:39 PM
              Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: shabd Yoga /ganga


              > > > Hi G[angaji] and Satkatar,
              > > > As an old intiate of Kirpal Singh who wrote the book
              > > > "Naam or Word" which was quoted from, I am a little
              > > > ashamed of not knowing more about this teaching from
              > > > inner experience. But perhaps I can clarify the theory a
              > > > bit.
              > > > Kirpal taught that the Source was all pervasive but could
              > > > only be completed surrendered to or merged in by tracing
              > > > the primordial creative force of the universe from its lowest
              > > > links ringing within us (think tinnitis) through its intermediate
              > > > ranges in the inner planes to its origin in the Source. This
              > > > process is in some ways similar to Ramana's urging of
              > > > seekers to go within and trace the "I" to its origin. Of
              > > > course Ramana didn't speak of the sound current and it's
              > > > not at all clear to me how the two teachings actually
              > > > compare in their details.
              > > > While it is clear that many recognized mystics have
              > > > experienced and celebrated the glories of the the "naam"
              > > > using various words for it as clearly shown in the book
              > > > cited), Kirpal (and his school) have interpreted many
              > > > Biblical passages (like the opening of Saint John's gospel
              > > > where he refers to the Word or Logos) as referring to the
              > > > same inner sound current. Historians don't have records
              > > > to confirm these interpretations and they sometimes may
              > > > sound a bit forced.
              > > > Nevertheless, Sant Mat (The Path of the Masters) appears
              > > > to me to be an authentic path of exploration of the inner
              > > > reality of our being.
              > > > Harvey
              > >
              > >
              > > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the realm of
              > > manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they while
              > > part of the Whole are still in a divisionary measure...... one must
              > > go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which they
              > > come ...... the light that is beyond all lights....... the unknowing
              > > which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is beyond all
              > > truths......
              > >
              > > shanti om
              >
              >
              > go behind the energy
              >
              > oh!
              >
              > words! ya di ya da bla bla
              >
              > not possible!!!
              >
              > when you die
              >
              > peace

              Hi G[angaji] and Satkartar,

              If Kirpal and his Sant Mat school are correct, the Naam or
              Shabd, if followed through the increasingly subtle regions does
              lead the practioner to the Nameless Source beyond all
              manifestation. Or, in G's description, to the light which is
              beyond all lights. That's the theory as I understand it anyway.
              My own experience is not worth mentioning, but there is an
              impressive pantheon of respected mystics who have testified
              on its behalf.

              In his book "Crown of Life" Kirpal pointed to the advaita
              philosophy of Shankara as the ultimate in philosophy, but said
              that understanding this philosophy was just a first step and that
              a world of practical experience was needed to fully realize its
              implications. This disticnction between theory and practice
              reminds me of the division between those who feel that advaita
              is accomplished through understanding and those who talk
              about the process of going within in the pursuit of self inquiry.

              While Kirpal does mention Shankara in "Crown of Life", I don't think
              he says much about Ramana. I have not yet been able to figure out
              the significance of the differences between the Ramana and Kirpal
              approaches. Any help in this regard would be appreciated.
              Harvey
            • satkartar7
              Hi G[angaji] and Satkatar, ... the difference is only in the flavor, Harvey, I think All true paths lead to the same state Ramana s realization of the the
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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                Hi G[angaji] and Satkatar,
                > > > > As an old intiate of Kirpal Singh who wrote the book
                > > > > "Naam or Word" which was quoted from, I am a little
                > > > > ashamed of not knowing more about this teaching from
                > > > > inner experience. But perhaps I can clarify the theory a
                > > > > bit.
                > > > > Kirpal taught that the Source was all pervasive but could
                > > > > only be completed surrendered to or merged in by tracing
                > > > > the primordial creative force of the universe from its lowest
                > > > > links ringing within us (think tinnitis) through its intermediate
                > > > > ranges in the inner planes to its origin in the Source. This
                > > > > process is in some ways similar to Ramana's urging of
                > > > > seekers to go within and trace the "I" to its origin. Of
                > > > > course Ramana didn't speak of the sound current and it's
                > > > > not at all clear to me how the two teachings actually
                > > > > compare in their details.
                > > > > While it is clear that many recognized mystics have
                > > > > experienced and celebrated the glories of the the "naam"
                > > > > using various words for it as clearly shown in the book
                > > > > cited), Kirpal (and his school) have interpreted many
                > > > > Biblical passages (like the opening of Saint John's gospel
                > > > > where he refers to the Word or Logos) as referring to the
                > > > > same inner sound current. Historians don't have records
                > > > > to confirm these interpretations and they sometimes may
                > > > > sound a bit forced.
                > > > > Nevertheless, Sant Mat (The Path of the Masters) appears
                > > > > to me to be an authentic path of exploration of the inner
                > > > > reality of our being.
                > > > > Harvey
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the realm of
                > > > manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they while
                > > > part of the Whole are still in a divisionary measure...... one must
                > > > go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which they
                > > > come ...... the light that is beyond all lights....... the unknowing
                > > > which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is beyond all
                > > > truths......
                > > >
                > > > shanti om
                > >
                > >
                > > go behind the energy
                > >
                > > oh!
                > >
                > > words! ya di ya da bla bla
                > >
                > > not possible!!!
                > >
                > > when you die
                > >
                > > peace
                >
                > Hi G[angaji] and Satkartar,
                >
                > If Kirpal and his Sant Mat school are correct, the Naam or
                > Shabd, if followed through the increasingly subtle regions does
                > lead the practioner to the Nameless Source beyond all
                > manifestation. Or, in G's description, to the light which is
                > beyond all lights. That's the theory as I understand it anyway.
                > My own experience is not worth mentioning, but there is an
                > impressive pantheon of respected mystics who have testified
                > on its behalf.
                >
                > In his book "Crown of Life" Kirpal pointed to the advaita
                > philosophy of Shankara as the ultimate in philosophy, but said
                > that understanding this philosophy was just a first step and that
                > a world of practical experience was needed to fully realize its
                > implications. This disticnction between theory and practice
                > reminds me of the division between those who feel that advaita
                > is accomplished through understanding and those who talk
                > about the process of going within in the pursuit of self inquiry.
                >
                > While Kirpal does mention Shankara in "Crown of Life", I don't think
                > he says much about Ramana. I have not yet been able to figure out
                > the significance of the differences between the Ramana and Kirpal
                > approaches. Any help in this regard would be appreciated.
                > Harvey



                the difference is only in the flavor,
                Harvey, I think

                All true paths lead to the same 'state'

                Ramana's realization of the the Self
                is focusing more on the UNITY of
                Brahman

                Sant Mat; the sufi way is more like a
                medieval God-intoxicated 'state' [Rumi]

                Nisargadatta is like pristine *Awareness*
                focusing on keeping aware and nothing
                else

                I started with Zen through Kundalini
                Yoga and than Shabd Yoga
                and ended with Nisargadatta I see
                nothing beyond

                ALL PATH ARE THE SAME

                please see my comparisons and if you
                feel like it, post your feedback

                <http://santmat-meditation.net/iam/>

                Love, Karta

                ps: did you know that Yogi Bhajan was
                with Kirpal Singh on stage at the World
                Unification Conference? his voice
                puts me into nirvana still

                I did participate many Bhandaras for
                his death celebration; he is loved
                deeply in India

                == "Self" = Consciousness = God =
                Awareness = Life ==
              • devianandi
                ... intermediate ... realm of ... while ... must ... unknowing ... devi: is possible according to meher baba there are 4 types of mukti or moksha 1.ordinary
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
                  <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
                  > > > Hi G[angaji] and Satkatar,
                  > > > As an old intiate of Kirpal Singh who wrote the book
                  > > > "Naam or Word" which was quoted from, I am a little
                  > > > ashamed of not knowing more about this teaching from
                  > > > inner experience. But perhaps I can clarify the theory a
                  > > > bit.
                  > > > Kirpal taught that the Source was all pervasive but could
                  > > > only be completed surrendered to or merged in by tracing
                  > > > the primordial creative force of the universe from its lowest
                  > > > links ringing within us (think tinnitis) through its
                  intermediate
                  > > > ranges in the inner planes to its origin in the Source. This
                  > > > process is in some ways similar to Ramana's urging of
                  > > > seekers to go within and trace the "I" to its origin. Of
                  > > > course Ramana didn't speak of the sound current and it's
                  > > > not at all clear to me how the two teachings actually
                  > > > compare in their details.
                  > > > While it is clear that many recognized mystics have
                  > > > experienced and celebrated the glories of the the "naam"
                  > > > using various words for it as clearly shown in the book
                  > > > cited), Kirpal (and his school) have interpreted many
                  > > > Biblical passages (like the opening of Saint John's gospel
                  > > > where he refers to the Word or Logos) as referring to the
                  > > > same inner sound current. Historians don't have records
                  > > > to confirm these interpretations and they sometimes may
                  > > > sound a bit forced.
                  > > > Nevertheless, Sant Mat (The Path of the Masters) appears
                  > > > to me to be an authentic path of exploration of the inner
                  > > > reality of our being.
                  > > > Harvey
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the
                  realm of
                  > > manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they
                  while
                  > > part of the Whole are still in a divisionary measure...... one
                  must
                  > > go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which they
                  > > come ...... the light that is beyond all lights....... the
                  unknowing
                  > > which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is beyond all
                  > > truths......
                  > >
                  > > shanti om
                  >
                  >
                  > go behind the energy
                  >
                  > oh!
                  >
                  > words! ya di ya da bla bla
                  >
                  > not possible!!!
                  >
                  > when you die
                  >
                  > peace

                  devi: is possible


                  according to meher baba there are 4 types of mukti or moksha

                  1.ordinary mukti is achieved only after death
                  2. videh-mukti retain the body but are not conscious of creation or
                  the body
                  3.jivan-mukti is liberated and enjoys sat-chit ananda, sometimes *i
                  am god* expereince..along with the three speres of creation but a
                  jivan-mukta has no duty to creation
                  4. param-mukti is know as the Perfect Master or Sat-Guru and comes
                  back to normal consciousness after God-realziaiton
                • G
                  ... intermediate ... realm of ... while ... must ... unknowing ... G: This is What Realization is the Death before death..... it IS possible ...... the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    "satkartar7" <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
                    > > > Hi G[angaji] and Satkatar,
                    > > > As an old intiate of Kirpal Singh who wrote the book
                    > > > "Naam or Word" which was quoted from, I am a little
                    > > > ashamed of not knowing more about this teaching from
                    > > > inner experience. But perhaps I can clarify the theory a
                    > > > bit.
                    > > > Kirpal taught that the Source was all pervasive but could
                    > > > only be completed surrendered to or merged in by tracing
                    > > > the primordial creative force of the universe from its lowest
                    > > > links ringing within us (think tinnitis) through its
                    intermediate
                    > > > ranges in the inner planes to its origin in the Source. This
                    > > > process is in some ways similar to Ramana's urging of
                    > > > seekers to go within and trace the "I" to its origin. Of
                    > > > course Ramana didn't speak of the sound current and it's
                    > > > not at all clear to me how the two teachings actually
                    > > > compare in their details.
                    > > > While it is clear that many recognized mystics have
                    > > > experienced and celebrated the glories of the the "naam"
                    > > > using various words for it as clearly shown in the book
                    > > > cited), Kirpal (and his school) have interpreted many
                    > > > Biblical passages (like the opening of Saint John's gospel
                    > > > where he refers to the Word or Logos) as referring to the
                    > > > same inner sound current. Historians don't have records
                    > > > to confirm these interpretations and they sometimes may
                    > > > sound a bit forced.
                    > > > Nevertheless, Sant Mat (The Path of the Masters) appears
                    > > > to me to be an authentic path of exploration of the inner
                    > > > reality of our being.
                    > > > Harvey
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the
                    realm of
                    > > manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they
                    while
                    > > part of the Whole are still in a divisionary measure...... one
                    must
                    > > go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which they
                    > > come ...... the light that is beyond all lights....... the
                    unknowing
                    > > which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is beyond all
                    > > truths......
                    > >
                    > > shanti om
                    >
                    >
                    > go behind the energy
                    >
                    > oh!
                    >
                    > words! ya di ya da bla bla
                    >
                    > not possible!!!
                    >
                    > when you die


                    G: This is What Realization is the Death before death.....

                    it IS possible ...... the fact that you don't know that show that
                    you are still a seeker and not resting within the Realization that
                    you claim........
                  • G
                    ... G: i am speaking of the Absolute not astral realms or movie fantasy.......
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason
                      Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                      > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still
                      > within the realm of
                      > manifest although varying degrees of subtle.......
                      > but they while
                      > part of the Whole are still in a divisionary
                      > measure...... one must
                      > go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which
                      > they
                      > come ...... the light that is beyond all
                      > lights....... the unknowing
                      > which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is
                      > beyond all
                      > truths......
                      >
                      > shanti om
                      >
                      > ------
                      > Lots of definable things not seen or heard. All
                      > emotions are unseen and unheard. I really think you've
                      > lost it, they're folks like you on ward 26!
                      >
                      > The beyond, the beyond, which is beyond all beyonds,
                      > isn't beyond anything, not even in silence.
                      >
                      > Looking at all that is, nothing that isn't uncovered
                      > is beyond the scope and there are plenty of nothings
                      > yet to be uncovered, within it.
                      >
                      > The mind can move one beyond the beyond that is beyond
                      > all beyonds. Yet no one is comming back with anything
                      > that is beyond. Source is source is source is source,
                      > that isn't comming from or going to anywhere. A mind
                      > does trap one there and it isn't above or below or
                      > through anything.
                      >
                      > Funny how the movie the matrix has people twisting and
                      > twirling about how the is that is is in the mind and
                      > if you can just make the mind do anything then in the
                      > physical one becomes a super-power-hero, as if. Lot's
                      > of blithering folks thinking they're chickens or
                      > super-heros in the looney bin :)
                      >
                      > The body is physical, the mind is beyond (so to
                      > speak), the soul is all unity that feeds the mind/body
                      > unit without form, without tangable dependence on any
                      > other. Why one cannot be satisfied with the who they
                      > are is what all the hoopla is about. Seems there are
                      > alot of overweight, unattractive (by the standards of
                      > the day) that are looking for the beyond that is
                      > beyond. Ahh to get the respect and love I deserve, as
                      > if. :)
                      >
                      > Peace and Love



                      G: i am speaking of the Absolute not astral realms or movie
                      fantasy.......
                    • G
                      ... /ganga ... lowest ... intermediate ... This ... gospel ... appears ... realm of ... while ... must ... they ... unknowing ... does ... that ... think ...
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 28, 2003
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey
                        Schneider" <haarvi1@n...> wrote:
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "satkartar7" <mi_nok@y...>
                        > To: <meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:39 PM
                        > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: shabd Yoga
                        /ganga
                        >
                        >
                        > > > > Hi G[angaji] and Satkatar,
                        > > > > As an old intiate of Kirpal Singh who wrote the book
                        > > > > "Naam or Word" which was quoted from, I am a little
                        > > > > ashamed of not knowing more about this teaching from
                        > > > > inner experience. But perhaps I can clarify the theory a
                        > > > > bit.
                        > > > > Kirpal taught that the Source was all pervasive but could
                        > > > > only be completed surrendered to or merged in by tracing
                        > > > > the primordial creative force of the universe from its
                        lowest
                        > > > > links ringing within us (think tinnitis) through its
                        intermediate
                        > > > > ranges in the inner planes to its origin in the Source.
                        This
                        > > > > process is in some ways similar to Ramana's urging of
                        > > > > seekers to go within and trace the "I" to its origin. Of
                        > > > > course Ramana didn't speak of the sound current and it's
                        > > > > not at all clear to me how the two teachings actually
                        > > > > compare in their details.
                        > > > > While it is clear that many recognized mystics have
                        > > > > experienced and celebrated the glories of the the "naam"
                        > > > > using various words for it as clearly shown in the book
                        > > > > cited), Kirpal (and his school) have interpreted many
                        > > > > Biblical passages (like the opening of Saint John's
                        gospel
                        > > > > where he refers to the Word or Logos) as referring to the
                        > > > > same inner sound current. Historians don't have records
                        > > > > to confirm these interpretations and they sometimes may
                        > > > > sound a bit forced.
                        > > > > Nevertheless, Sant Mat (The Path of the Masters)
                        appears
                        > > > > to me to be an authentic path of exploration of the inner
                        > > > > reality of our being.
                        > > > > Harvey
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the
                        realm of
                        > > > manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they
                        while
                        > > > part of the Whole are still in a divisionary measure...... one
                        must
                        > > > go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which
                        they
                        > > > come ...... the light that is beyond all lights....... the
                        unknowing
                        > > > which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is beyond all
                        > > > truths......
                        > > >
                        > > > shanti om
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > go behind the energy
                        > >
                        > > oh!
                        > >
                        > > words! ya di ya da bla bla
                        > >
                        > > not possible!!!
                        > >
                        > > when you die
                        > >
                        > > peace
                        >
                        > Hi G[angaji] and Satkartar,
                        >
                        > If Kirpal and his Sant Mat school are correct, the Naam or
                        > Shabd, if followed through the increasingly subtle regions
                        does
                        > lead the practioner to the Nameless Source beyond all
                        > manifestation. Or, in G's description, to the light which is
                        > beyond all lights. That's the theory as I understand it anyway.
                        > My own experience is not worth mentioning, but there is an
                        > impressive pantheon of respected mystics who have testified
                        > on its behalf.
                        >
                        > In his book "Crown of Life" Kirpal pointed to the advaita
                        > philosophy of Shankara as the ultimate in philosophy, but said
                        > that understanding this philosophy was just a first step and
                        that
                        > a world of practical experience was needed to fully realize its
                        > implications. This disticnction between theory and practice
                        > reminds me of the division between those who feel that advaita
                        > is accomplished through understanding and those who talk
                        > about the process of going within in the pursuit of self inquiry.
                        >
                        > While Kirpal does mention Shankara in "Crown of Life", I don't
                        think
                        > he says much about Ramana. I have not yet been able to
                        figure out
                        > the significance of the differences between the Ramana and
                        Kirpal
                        > approaches. Any help in this regard would be appreciated.
                        > Harvey


                        G: Ramana does not advocate sound and light because they
                        are still within phenomena...... he advocates Self Enquiry
                        because it goes to the heart of identity and cuts the roots so that
                        when Nirvikalpa Samdhi comes it will bring with it the lasting
                        Sahaja Samadhi ....... if doing a yoga practice and one happens
                        to enter a Nirvikalpa State and the roots of identity are not cut
                        then once again the mind chatter may begin and the conceptual
                        identity may then again arise..........
                      • Jason Fishman
                        ... Yes, as was I. Peace and Love __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 29, 2003
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                          --- G <crystalkundalini@...> wrote:
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                          > Jason
                          > Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                          > > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still
                          > > within the realm of
                          > > manifest although varying degrees of subtle.......
                          >
                          > > but they while
                          > > part of the Whole are still in a divisionary
                          > > measure...... one must
                          > > go beyond them and surrender to the Source from
                          > which
                          > > they
                          > > come ...... the light that is beyond all
                          > > lights....... the unknowing
                          > > which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is
                          > > beyond all
                          > > truths......
                          > >
                          > > shanti om
                          > >
                          > > ------
                          > > Lots of definable things not seen or heard. All
                          > > emotions are unseen and unheard. I really think
                          > you've
                          > > lost it, they're folks like you on ward 26!
                          > >
                          > > The beyond, the beyond, which is beyond all
                          > beyonds,
                          > > isn't beyond anything, not even in silence.
                          > >
                          > > Looking at all that is, nothing that isn't
                          > uncovered
                          > > is beyond the scope and there are plenty of
                          > nothings
                          > > yet to be uncovered, within it.
                          > >
                          > > The mind can move one beyond the beyond that is
                          > beyond
                          > > all beyonds. Yet no one is comming back with
                          > anything
                          > > that is beyond. Source is source is source is
                          > source,
                          > > that isn't comming from or going to anywhere. A
                          > mind
                          > > does trap one there and it isn't above or below or
                          > > through anything.
                          > >
                          > > Funny how the movie the matrix has people twisting
                          > and
                          > > twirling about how the is that is is in the mind
                          > and
                          > > if you can just make the mind do anything then in
                          > the
                          > > physical one becomes a super-power-hero, as if.
                          > Lot's
                          > > of blithering folks thinking they're chickens or
                          > > super-heros in the looney bin :)
                          > >
                          > > The body is physical, the mind is beyond (so to
                          > > speak), the soul is all unity that feeds the
                          > mind/body
                          > > unit without form, without tangable dependence on
                          > any
                          > > other. Why one cannot be satisfied with the who
                          > they
                          > > are is what all the hoopla is about. Seems there
                          > are
                          > > alot of overweight, unattractive (by the standards
                          > of
                          > > the day) that are looking for the beyond that is
                          > > beyond. Ahh to get the respect and love I deserve,
                          > as
                          > > if. :)
                          > >
                          > > Peace and Love
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > G: i am speaking of the Absolute not astral
                          > realms or movie
                          > fantasy.......

                          Yes, as was I.

                          Peace and Love


                          __________________________________
                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                          http://sbc.yahoo.com
                        • satkartar7
                          ... Die daily is the name of game in sanmat meditation, the reason YOU don t know this is beause YOU DON T KNOW!! if you are telling me that you are a guru and
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 29, 2003
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                            > > > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the
                            > realm of
                            > > > manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they
                            > while
                            > > > part of the Whole are still in a divisionary measure...... one
                            > must
                            > > > go beyond them and surrender to the Source from which they
                            > > > come ...... the light that is beyond all lights....... the
                            > unknowing
                            > > > which is beyond all knowledge .... That which is beyond all
                            > > > truths......
                            > > >
                            > > > shanti om
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > go behind the energy
                            > >
                            > > oh!
                            > >
                            > > words! ya di ya da bla bla
                            > >
                            > > not possible!!!
                            > >
                            > > when you die
                            >
                            >
                            > G: This is What Realization is the Death before death.....
                            >
                            > it IS possible ...... the fact that you don't know that show that
                            > you are still a seeker and not resting within the Realization that
                            > you claim........


                            Die daily is the name of game in sanmat meditation, the reason YOU don't know
                            this is beause YOU DON'T KNOW!!


                            if you are telling me that you
                            are a guru and I am seeker than I say
                            go and fly a kyte you: are a megalomaniac clown

                            give up this sick guru-game we all have
                            your number down [exept Tony]

                            LOL

                            Karta
                          • devianandi
                            G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the realm of manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but they while part of the Whole
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 29, 2003
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                              G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the
                              realm of manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but
                              they while part of the Whole are still in a divisionary
                              measure...... one must go beyond them and surrender to the Source
                              from which they come ...... the light that is beyond all
                              lights....... the unknowing which is beyond all knowledge ....
                              That which is beyond all truths......
                              go behind the energy
                              karta:oh!words! ya di ya da bla bla not possible!!!when you die
                              G: This is What Realization is the Death before death.....
                              devi: gangak is writing the truth
                              gangak:it IS possible ...... the fact that you don't know that show
                              that you are still a seeker and not resting within the Realization
                              that you claim........
                              devi: she's right again, liberation + body = jivan-mukta
                              karta:Die daily is the name of game in sanmat meditation, the reason
                              YOU don't know this is beause YOU DON'T KNOW!!
                              devi: karta, gangak is realized, i can't believe you still are
                              challenging her,
                              karta:if you are telling me that you are a guru and I am seeker than
                              I say go and fly a kyte you: are a megalomaniac clown
                              devi: megalomanics aren't *realized*
                              karta; give up this sick guru-game we all have
                              > your number down [exept Tony]
                              devi: add me to the list of people who think that gangak is realized,
                              and karta, greg, bruce bob and jody all agree too. you and tony are
                              in the minority
                              seriously, karta, if you live around the block from that swamiji, why
                              don't you go see him...? talk to him about gangak, maybe he'll help
                              remove this big problem your having with her...your *name calling* is
                              probably extrememly annoying to most everyone in all the clubs around
                              here by the way...(example of name calling...sick...megalomanic clown)
                              again, she's realized, and she's very open about it, if you were
                              smart you might take advantage of it...
                            • satkartar7
                              ... and you are the other clown of enlightenment mania Karta
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 29, 2003
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the
                                > realm of manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but
                                > they while part of the Whole are still in a divisionary
                                > measure...... one must go beyond them and surrender to the Source
                                > from which they come ...... the light that is beyond all
                                > lights....... the unknowing which is beyond all knowledge ....
                                > That which is beyond all truths......
                                > go behind the energy
                                > karta:oh!words! ya di ya da bla bla not possible!!!when you die
                                > G: This is What Realization is the Death before death.....
                                > devi: gangak is writing the truth
                                > gangak:it IS possible ...... the fact that you don't know that show
                                > that you are still a seeker and not resting within the Realization
                                > that you claim........
                                > devi: she's right again, liberation + body = jivan-mukta
                                > karta:Die daily is the name of game in sanmat meditation, the reason
                                > YOU don't know this is beause YOU DON'T KNOW!!
                                > devi: karta, gangak is realized, i can't believe you still are
                                > challenging her,
                                > karta:if you are telling me that you are a guru and I am seeker than
                                > I say go and fly a kyte you: are a megalomaniac clown
                                > devi: megalomanics aren't *realized*
                                > karta; give up this sick guru-game we all have
                                > > your number down [exept Tony]
                                > devi: add me to the list of people who think that gangak is realized,
                                > and karta, greg, bruce bob and jody all agree too. you and tony are
                                > in the minority
                                > seriously, karta, if you live around the block from that swamiji, why
                                > don't you go see him...? talk to him about gangak, maybe he'll help
                                > remove this big problem your having with her...your *name calling* is
                                > probably extrememly annoying to most everyone in all the clubs around
                                > here by the way...(example of name calling...sick...megalomanic clown)
                                > again, she's realized, and she's very open about it, if you were
                                > smart you might take advantage of it...



                                and you are the other clown of 'enlightenment' mania

                                Karta
                              • devianandi
                                ... Source ... knowledge .... ... show ... Realization ... reason ... than ... realized, ... are ... why ... help ... calling* is ... around ... clown) ...
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 29, 2003
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                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
                                  <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the
                                  > > realm of manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but
                                  > > they while part of the Whole are still in a divisionary
                                  > > measure...... one must go beyond them and surrender to the
                                  Source
                                  > > from which they come ...... the light that is beyond all
                                  > > lights....... the unknowing which is beyond all
                                  knowledge ....
                                  > > That which is beyond all truths......
                                  > > go behind the energy
                                  > > karta:oh!words! ya di ya da bla bla not possible!!!when you die
                                  > > G: This is What Realization is the Death before death.....
                                  > > devi: gangak is writing the truth
                                  > > gangak:it IS possible ...... the fact that you don't know that
                                  show
                                  > > that you are still a seeker and not resting within the
                                  Realization
                                  > > that you claim........
                                  > > devi: she's right again, liberation + body = jivan-mukta
                                  > > karta:Die daily is the name of game in sanmat meditation, the
                                  reason
                                  > > YOU don't know this is beause YOU DON'T KNOW!!
                                  > > devi: karta, gangak is realized, i can't believe you still are
                                  > > challenging her,
                                  > > karta:if you are telling me that you are a guru and I am seeker
                                  than
                                  > > I say go and fly a kyte you: are a megalomaniac clown
                                  > > devi: megalomanics aren't *realized*
                                  > > karta; give up this sick guru-game we all have
                                  > > > your number down [exept Tony]
                                  > > devi: add me to the list of people who think that gangak is
                                  realized,
                                  > > and karta, greg, bruce bob and jody all agree too. you and tony
                                  are
                                  > > in the minority
                                  > > seriously, karta, if you live around the block from that swamiji,
                                  why
                                  > > don't you go see him...? talk to him about gangak, maybe he'll
                                  help
                                  > > remove this big problem your having with her...your *name
                                  calling* is
                                  > > probably extrememly annoying to most everyone in all the clubs
                                  around
                                  > > here by the way...(example of name calling...sick...megalomanic
                                  clown)
                                  > > again, she's realized, and she's very open about it, if you were
                                  > > smart you might take advantage of it...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  karta: and you are the other clown of 'enlightenment' mania
                                  devi: i'm not reading you anymore, i don't think your name calling is
                                  funny
                                  >
                                  >
                                • satkartar7
                                  ... sorry Devi, when pressured I tell the truth as I see it. I have no idea why did Ganga tried to challenged me at what she failed misarably with her
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 29, 2003
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                                    > > > G: indeed any seen - heard - or energy is still within the
                                    > > > realm of manifest although varying degrees of subtle....... but
                                    > > > they while part of the Whole are still in a divisionary
                                    > > > measure...... one must go beyond them and surrender to the
                                    > Source
                                    > > > from which they come ...... the light that is beyond all
                                    > > > lights....... the unknowing which is beyond all
                                    > knowledge ....
                                    > > > That which is beyond all truths......
                                    > > > go behind the energy
                                    > > > karta:oh!words! ya di ya da bla bla not possible!!!when you die
                                    > > > G: This is What Realization is the Death before death.....
                                    > > > devi: gangak is writing the truth
                                    > > > gangak:it IS possible ...... the fact that you don't know that
                                    > show
                                    > > > that you are still a seeker and not resting within the
                                    > Realization
                                    > > > that you claim........
                                    > > > devi: she's right again, liberation + body = jivan-mukta
                                    > > > karta:Die daily is the name of game in sanmat meditation, the
                                    > reason
                                    > > > YOU don't know this is beause YOU DON'T KNOW!!
                                    > > > devi: karta, gangak is realized, i can't believe you still are
                                    > > > challenging her,
                                    > > > karta:if you are telling me that you are a guru and I am seeker
                                    > than
                                    > > > I say go and fly a kyte you: are a megalomaniac clown
                                    > > > devi: megalomanics aren't *realized*
                                    > > > karta; give up this sick guru-game we all have
                                    > > > > your number down [exept Tony]
                                    > > > devi: add me to the list of people who think that gangak is
                                    > realized,
                                    > > > and karta, greg, bruce bob and jody all agree too. you and tony
                                    > are
                                    > > > in the minority
                                    > > > seriously, karta, if you live around the block from that swamiji,
                                    > why
                                    > > > don't you go see him...? talk to him about gangak, maybe he'll
                                    > help
                                    > > > remove this big problem your having with her...your *name
                                    > calling* is
                                    > > > probably extrememly annoying to most everyone in all the clubs
                                    > around
                                    > > > here by the way...(example of name calling...sick...megalomanic
                                    > clown)
                                    > > > again, she's realized, and she's very open about it, if you were
                                    > > > smart you might take advantage of it...
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > karta: and you are the other clown of 'enlightenment' mania
                                    > devi: i'm not reading you anymore, i don't think your name calling is
                                    > funny


                                    sorry Devi, when pressured I tell the
                                    truth as I see it. I have no idea why
                                    did Ganga tried to challenged me
                                    at what she failed misarably with her misundertandings and 'lack' and why you
                                    always try to spank me and why did
                                    you positioned yourself in disagreement
                                    with me

                                    REALITY CAN NOT BE MANIPULATED!! Devi

                                    Ganga with her aura-pic and upperhand
                                    stance sucks and from here you are
                                    pathetic with your C&P enlightenment

                                    I did not ask to be challenged but, when
                                    I am; I tell what is on my mind

                                    Karta

                                    ps: while you are now into asskissing
                                    Ganga why not ask her to be a member of
                                    her club? there you can do it: that is
                                    all what is there to be done and don't forget to ask for the Swami's cerificate

                                    <grin>

                                    LOL
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