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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: perfection

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  • Jason Fishman
    Both statements appear very clear here. Would you say that in essence all transient play can be summed up in a positive, negative or lack, as to say that this
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 4, 2003
      Both statements appear very clear here. Would you say
      that in essence all transient play can be summed up in
      a positive, negative or lack, as to say that this
      triad is the basis for all phenomena?

      If this is so then all theories of phenomena have an
      equal amount of truth (relevence),
      falicy(contradiction) or balance (irrelevence or lack)
      regardless of points pertaining to perspective, time
      or space. There could never be a thing called
      perfection that isn't unperfect and equally so,
      non-existent.

      Peace and Love

      --- Gene Poole <gene_poole@...> wrote:
      > "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
      >
      > > The Question of Perfection
      > >
      > > I don't see a difference in someone saying they
      > are perfect and
      > > someone who never admits to being wrong.
      > >
      > > It is the karma of life that puts one in between a
      > rock and a hard
      > > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and damned
      > if you do, damned
      > > if you don't situations. Everyone makes mistakes.
      > >
      > > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone who
      > is an easy target,
      > > that is, someone who needs to be brought down a
      > notch. No blame
      > > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to
      > themselves!" The cry of the
      > > people who deny hurting others. The thing wrong
      > with that is that we
      > > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we deny
      > we did anything.
      > > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
      > >
      > > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the lesson,
      > and regardless of
      > > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart, or
      > atma vichara, it is
      > > not being done.
      > >
      > > The problem with claiming you are perfect and are
      > willing to help
      > > others is that you are making believe that you are
      > permanent fixture
      > > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated
      > mental image.
      > >
      > > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto
      > claiming perfection in
      > > that situation.
      > > Love
      > > Bobby G.
      >
      > Hi Bobby... well stated. And a timely pointer for
      > all.
      >
      > I seriously question the rampant paradigm which
      > validates the trend of telling people what is wrong
      > with them.
      >
      > And this especially in a context that is supposedly
      > 'spiritual'. Just because someone uses words from
      > the Hindu language, and phraseologies which imply
      > familiarity with one or other model of Being, does
      > not
      > qualify to state categorically that the other is
      > missing
      > vital steps to salvation.
      >
      > That is fundamentalism, pure and simple. The
      > adherents
      > to that sort of position are notoriously immune to
      > any
      > insight as to the defect in their approach; and so,
      > discussion
      > devolves to attack and defense.
      >
      > It is possible to have a discussion, which does not
      > hinge
      > on one person having to admit a 'moral defect' in
      > order
      > to be validated by the other.
      >
      > I sincerely wish, that the self-appointed
      > authorities of
      > spirituality, would take the time to study deeply,
      > the
      > writings of those who have treated the issues of
      > morals
      > and ethics, before venturing into waters in which
      > they
      > then drown.
      >
      > It is not appropriate to imply moral defect in
      > another;
      > even in a court of law, that judgment is rarely
      > issued.
      >
      > Thanks again, Bob...
      >
      >
      > ==Gene Poole==
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • texasbg2000
      ... Indeed Gene. And it is difficult to listen when someone tells you of a concern they have over an idea you present. Defense is automatic when the challenger
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 4, 2003
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
        <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
        > "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
        > Hi Bobby... well stated. And a timely pointer for all.
        >
        > I seriously question the rampant paradigm which
        > validates the trend of telling people what is wrong
        > with them.


        Indeed Gene. And it is difficult to listen when someone tells
        you of a concern they have over an idea you present.
        Defense is automatic when the challenger is egotistical
        even if you know they may have a point.
        People are sensitve to conceit.

        >
        > And this especially in a context that is supposedly
        > 'spiritual'. Just because someone uses words from
        > the Hindu language, and phraseologies which imply
        > familiarity with one or other model of Being, does not
        > qualify to state categorically that the other is missing
        > vital steps to salvation.

        This idea of 'model of Being' is what I usually refer to as a mental
        structure. The structure which is built on sand will not go far in
        describing the problems some people exhibit.

        One difficult model is what Ken Wilbur called 'flatlanders'.
        People that know a lot of models but won't choose one. It sounds
        great but is self defeating because the conflict is that as soon as
        you pick one you eliminate the choice, and you have grown
        accustomed to having a choice, so you don't make one.

        The best models allow for unlimited growth and insight,
        and the poor ones trap with unsolvable dogma,
        " It says in the Bible that everything
        written in the Bible is true so it has to be." "I am liberated
        and you can't tell if it is true because you admit to being
        Unenlightened. Any of my actions are inscrutable to you."

        >
        > That is fundamentalism, pure and simple. The adherents
        > to that sort of position are notoriously immune to any
        > insight as to the defect in their approach; and so, discussion
        > devolves to attack and defense.

        Any immunity to becoming aware of defects is hellish.

        >
        > It is possible to have a discussion, which does not hinge
        > on one person having to admit a 'moral defect' in order
        > to be validated by the other.

        To me liberation from a moral defect always hinges on
        seeing the defect in action. I would not have so much trouble
        seeing my own actions if they were not occasionally
        reprehensible. It gives me the tendency to not look very closely.
        But I think you may mean it in
        another sense entirely.


        >
        > I sincerely wish, that the self-appointed authorities of
        > spirituality, would take the time to study deeply, the
        > writings of those who have treated the issues of morals
        > and ethics, before venturing into waters in which they
        > then drown.
        >
        > It is not appropriate to imply moral defect in another;
        > even in a court of law, that judgment is rarely issued.

        True, without being in the shoes of someone it is all questionable.
        But we all make mistakes. It does not have to be openly admitted.
        It is when the answer is locked away
        that the harm is done.

        Good points Gene,
        Bobby G.

        >
        > Thanks again, Bob...
        >
        >
        > ==Gene Poole==
      • texasbg2000
        ... This may be a good working theory Jason. The tendency to name and predicate does not give the ability to stop the tendency to name and predicate. Any
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 4, 2003
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
          <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
          > Both statements appear very clear here. Would you say
          > that in essence all transient play can be summed up in
          > a positive, negative or lack, as to say that this
          > triad is the basis for all phenomena?
          >
          > If this is so then all theories of phenomena have an
          > equal amount of truth (relevence),
          > falicy(contradiction) or balance (irrelevence or lack)
          > regardless of points pertaining to perspective, time
          > or space. There could never be a thing called
          > perfection that isn't unperfect and equally so,
          > non-existent.
          >
          > Peace and Love

          This may be a good working theory Jason. The tendency to name and
          predicate does not give the ability to stop the tendency to name and
          predicate. Any theory or model won't go all the way. Perfection of
          model would not be possible.
          Bobby G.

          >
          > --- Gene Poole <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
          > > "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > The Question of Perfection
          > > >
          > > > I don't see a difference in someone saying they
          > > are perfect and
          > > > someone who never admits to being wrong.
          > > >
          > > > It is the karma of life that puts one in between a
          > > rock and a hard
          > > > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and damned
          > > if you do, damned
          > > > if you don't situations. Everyone makes mistakes.
          > > >
          > > > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone who
          > > is an easy target,
          > > > that is, someone who needs to be brought down a
          > > notch. No blame
          > > > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to
          > > themselves!" The cry of the
          > > > people who deny hurting others. The thing wrong
          > > with that is that we
          > > > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we deny
          > > we did anything.
          > > > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
          > > >
          > > > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the lesson,
          > > and regardless of
          > > > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart, or
          > > atma vichara, it is
          > > > not being done.
          > > >
          > > > The problem with claiming you are perfect and are
          > > willing to help
          > > > others is that you are making believe that you are
          > > permanent fixture
          > > > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated
          > > mental image.
          > > >
          > > > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto
          > > claiming perfection in
          > > > that situation.
          > > > Love
          > > > Bobby G.
          > >
          > > Hi Bobby... well stated. And a timely pointer for
          > > all.
          > >
          > > I seriously question the rampant paradigm which
          > > validates the trend of telling people what is wrong
          > > with them.
          > >
          > > And this especially in a context that is supposedly
          > > 'spiritual'. Just because someone uses words from
          > > the Hindu language, and phraseologies which imply
          > > familiarity with one or other model of Being, does
          > > not
          > > qualify to state categorically that the other is
          > > missing
          > > vital steps to salvation.
          > >
          > > That is fundamentalism, pure and simple. The
          > > adherents
          > > to that sort of position are notoriously immune to
          > > any
          > > insight as to the defect in their approach; and so,
          > > discussion
          > > devolves to attack and defense.
          > >
          > > It is possible to have a discussion, which does not
          > > hinge
          > > on one person having to admit a 'moral defect' in
          > > order
          > > to be validated by the other.
          > >
          > > I sincerely wish, that the self-appointed
          > > authorities of
          > > spirituality, would take the time to study deeply,
          > > the
          > > writings of those who have treated the issues of
          > > morals
          > > and ethics, before venturing into waters in which
          > > they
          > > then drown.
          > >
          > > It is not appropriate to imply moral defect in
          > > another;
          > > even in a court of law, that judgment is rarely
          > > issued.
          > >
          > > Thanks again, Bob...
          > >
          > >
          > > ==Gene Poole==
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
          > http://calendar.yahoo.com
        • Jason Fishman
          I suppose the only question one could ask here bobbyia, what is all the way? Wouldn t all the way be truly all the ways? Or maybe equally so, no way at all?
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 4, 2003
            I suppose the only question one could ask here
            bobbyia, what is all the way? Wouldn't all the way be
            truly all the ways? Or maybe equally so, no way at
            all?

            Silly questions
            Peace and Love

            --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
            > Jason Fishman
            > <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
            > > Both statements appear very clear here. Would you
            > say
            > > that in essence all transient play can be summed
            > up in
            > > a positive, negative or lack, as to say that this
            > > triad is the basis for all phenomena?
            > >
            > > If this is so then all theories of phenomena have
            > an
            > > equal amount of truth (relevence),
            > > falicy(contradiction) or balance (irrelevence or
            > lack)
            > > regardless of points pertaining to perspective,
            > time
            > > or space. There could never be a thing called
            > > perfection that isn't unperfect and equally so,
            > > non-existent.
            > >
            > > Peace and Love
            >
            > This may be a good working theory Jason. The
            > tendency to name and
            > predicate does not give the ability to stop the
            > tendency to name and
            > predicate. Any theory or model won't go all the
            > way. Perfection of
            > model would not be possible.
            > Bobby G.
            >
            > >
            > > --- Gene Poole <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
            > > > "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > The Question of Perfection
            > > > >
            > > > > I don't see a difference in someone saying
            > they
            > > > are perfect and
            > > > > someone who never admits to being wrong.
            > > > >
            > > > > It is the karma of life that puts one in
            > between a
            > > > rock and a hard
            > > > > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and
            > damned
            > > > if you do, damned
            > > > > if you don't situations. Everyone makes
            > mistakes.
            > > > >
            > > > > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone
            > who
            > > > is an easy target,
            > > > > that is, someone who needs to be brought down
            > a
            > > > notch. No blame
            > > > > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to
            > > > themselves!" The cry of the
            > > > > people who deny hurting others. The thing
            > wrong
            > > > with that is that we
            > > > > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we
            > deny
            > > > we did anything.
            > > > > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
            >
            > > > >
            > > > > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the
            > lesson,
            > > > and regardless of
            > > > > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart,
            > or
            > > > atma vichara, it is
            > > > > not being done.
            > > > >
            > > > > The problem with claiming you are perfect and
            > are
            > > > willing to help
            > > > > others is that you are making believe that you
            > are
            > > > permanent fixture
            > > > > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated
            > > > mental image.
            > > > >
            > > > > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto
            > > > claiming perfection in
            > > > > that situation.
            > > > > Love
            > > > > Bobby G.
            > > >
            > > > Hi Bobby... well stated. And a timely pointer
            > for
            > > > all.
            > > >
            > > > I seriously question the rampant paradigm which
            > > > validates the trend of telling people what is
            > wrong
            > > > with them.
            > > >
            > > > And this especially in a context that is
            > supposedly
            > > > 'spiritual'. Just because someone uses words
            > from
            > > > the Hindu language, and phraseologies which
            > imply
            > > > familiarity with one or other model of Being,
            > does
            > > > not
            > > > qualify to state categorically that the other is
            > > > missing
            > > > vital steps to salvation.
            > > >
            > > > That is fundamentalism, pure and simple. The
            > > > adherents
            > > > to that sort of position are notoriously immune
            > to
            > > > any
            > > > insight as to the defect in their approach; and
            > so,
            > > > discussion
            > > > devolves to attack and defense.
            > > >
            > > > It is possible to have a discussion, which does
            > not
            > > > hinge
            > > > on one person having to admit a 'moral defect'
            > in
            > > > order
            > > > to be validated by the other.
            > > >
            > > > I sincerely wish, that the self-appointed
            > > > authorities of
            > > > spirituality, would take the time to study
            > deeply,
            > > > the
            > > > writings of those who have treated the issues
            > of
            > > > morals
            > > > and ethics, before venturing into waters in
            > which
            > > > they
            > > > then drown.
            > > >
            > > > It is not appropriate to imply moral defect in
            > > > another;
            > > > even in a court of law, that judgment is rarely
            > > > issued.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks again, Bob...
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ==Gene Poole==
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync
            > to Outlook(TM).
            > > http://calendar.yahoo.com
            >
            >


            __________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
            http://calendar.yahoo.com
          • texasbg2000
            ... I am of the opinion, my dear Jason, that the mental operation is the only obstacle to the perfect mental operation. That is, without a constantly active
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 4, 2003
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
              <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
              > I suppose the only question one could ask here
              > bobbyia, what is all the way? Wouldn't all the way be
              > truly all the ways? Or maybe equally so, no way at
              > all?
              >
              > Silly questions
              > Peace and Love

              I am of the opinion, my dear Jason, that the mental operation is the
              only obstacle to the perfect mental operation. That is, without a
              constantly active neural network people would not throw up barriers
              to new ideas.

              And if you have ever had to throw up a barrier you know how hard it
              is.

              Well, adieu,
              Bobby G.

              > --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              > > Jason Fishman
              > > <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
              > > > Both statements appear very clear here. Would you
              > > say
              > > > that in essence all transient play can be summed
              > > up in
              > > > a positive, negative or lack, as to say that this
              > > > triad is the basis for all phenomena?
              > > >
              > > > If this is so then all theories of phenomena have
              > > an
              > > > equal amount of truth (relevence),
              > > > falicy(contradiction) or balance (irrelevence or
              > > lack)
              > > > regardless of points pertaining to perspective,
              > > time
              > > > or space. There could never be a thing called
              > > > perfection that isn't unperfect and equally so,
              > > > non-existent.
              > > >
              > > > Peace and Love
              > >
              > > This may be a good working theory Jason. The
              > > tendency to name and
              > > predicate does not give the ability to stop the
              > > tendency to name and
              > > predicate. Any theory or model won't go all the
              > > way. Perfection of
              > > model would not be possible.
              > > Bobby G.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > --- Gene Poole <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
              > > > > "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > > The Question of Perfection
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I don't see a difference in someone saying
              > > they
              > > > > are perfect and
              > > > > > someone who never admits to being wrong.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > It is the karma of life that puts one in
              > > between a
              > > > > rock and a hard
              > > > > > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and
              > > damned
              > > > > if you do, damned
              > > > > > if you don't situations. Everyone makes
              > > mistakes.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone
              > > who
              > > > > is an easy target,
              > > > > > that is, someone who needs to be brought down
              > > a
              > > > > notch. No blame
              > > > > > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to
              > > > > themselves!" The cry of the
              > > > > > people who deny hurting others. The thing
              > > wrong
              > > > > with that is that we
              > > > > > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we
              > > deny
              > > > > we did anything.
              > > > > > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
              > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the
              > > lesson,
              > > > > and regardless of
              > > > > > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart,
              > > or
              > > > > atma vichara, it is
              > > > > > not being done.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The problem with claiming you are perfect and
              > > are
              > > > > willing to help
              > > > > > others is that you are making believe that you
              > > are
              > > > > permanent fixture
              > > > > > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated
              > > > > mental image.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto
              > > > > claiming perfection in
              > > > > > that situation.
              > > > > > Love
              > > > > > Bobby G.
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi Bobby... well stated. And a timely pointer
              > > for
              > > > > all.
              > > > >
              > > > > I seriously question the rampant paradigm which
              > > > > validates the trend of telling people what is
              > > wrong
              > > > > with them.
              > > > >
              > > > > And this especially in a context that is
              > > supposedly
              > > > > 'spiritual'. Just because someone uses words
              > > from
              > > > > the Hindu language, and phraseologies which
              > > imply
              > > > > familiarity with one or other model of Being,
              > > does
              > > > > not
              > > > > qualify to state categorically that the other is
              > > > > missing
              > > > > vital steps to salvation.
              > > > >
              > > > > That is fundamentalism, pure and simple. The
              > > > > adherents
              > > > > to that sort of position are notoriously immune
              > > to
              > > > > any
              > > > > insight as to the defect in their approach; and
              > > so,
              > > > > discussion
              > > > > devolves to attack and defense.
              > > > >
              > > > > It is possible to have a discussion, which does
              > > not
              > > > > hinge
              > > > > on one person having to admit a 'moral defect'
              > > in
              > > > > order
              > > > > to be validated by the other.
              > > > >
              > > > > I sincerely wish, that the self-appointed
              > > > > authorities of
              > > > > spirituality, would take the time to study
              > > deeply,
              > > > > the
              > > > > writings of those who have treated the issues
              > > of
              > > > > morals
              > > > > and ethics, before venturing into waters in
              > > which
              > > > > they
              > > > > then drown.
              > > > >
              > > > > It is not appropriate to imply moral defect in
              > > > > another;
              > > > > even in a court of law, that judgment is rarely
              > > > > issued.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks again, Bob...
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ==Gene Poole==
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > __________________________________
              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync
              > > to Outlook(TM).
              > > > http://calendar.yahoo.com
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
              > http://calendar.yahoo.com
            • cornelius
              ... target, ... we ... anything. ... fixture ... Hi Bobby, Important points. Interesting how the image of perfection is often Not pronounced by the person to
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                > The Question of Perfection
                >
                > I don't see a difference in someone saying they are perfect and
                > someone who never admits to being wrong.
                >
                > It is the karma of life that puts one in between a rock and a hard
                > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and damned if you do, damned
                > if you don't situations. Everyone makes mistakes.
                >
                > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone who is an easy
                target,
                > that is, someone who needs to be brought down a notch. No blame
                > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to themselves!" The cry of the
                > people who deny hurting others. The thing wrong with that is that
                we
                > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we deny we did
                anything.
                > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
                >
                > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the lesson, and regardless of
                > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart, or atma vichara, it is
                > not being done.
                >
                > The problem with claiming you are perfect and are willing to help
                > others is that you are making believe that you are permanent
                fixture
                > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated mental image.
                >
                > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto claiming perfection in
                > that situation.
                > Love
                > Bobby G.


                Hi Bobby,

                Important points. Interesting how the image of perfection is often
                Not pronounced by the person to whom the "perfection image" is
                attached to. Thereby, so and so can be "advertised" as a Perfect
                living Master by his/her 'handlers', but that image is not mouthed by
                him/her....like who stands up and says "Look, I'm Perfect"
                We've met godzillion followers who have attached this perfect thing
                to Jesus, but would he have used such self-appraisal?

                For allowing the perpetuation of his/her image, could the
                said 'master' be accused of 'false modesty' and hypocrisy.

                Your points probably had more local figures in mind, not
                those "exalted' Gurus of ole...

                thanks.
              • G
                ... texasbg2000 ... and ... hard ... damned ... easy ... blame ... that ... regardless of ... is ... help ... perfection in ... often ... is ... Perfect ...
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  "cornelius" <d_agenda2000@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  "texasbg2000"
                  > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                  > > The Question of Perfection
                  > >
                  > > I don't see a difference in someone saying they are perfect
                  and
                  > > someone who never admits to being wrong.
                  > >
                  > > It is the karma of life that puts one in between a rock and a
                  hard
                  > > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and damned if you do,
                  damned
                  > > if you don't situations. Everyone makes mistakes.
                  > >
                  > > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone who is an
                  easy
                  > target,
                  > > that is, someone who needs to be brought down a notch. No
                  blame
                  > > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to themselves!" The cry of the
                  > > people who deny hurting others. The thing wrong with that is
                  that
                  > we
                  > > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we deny we did
                  > anything.
                  > > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
                  > >
                  > > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the lesson, and
                  regardless of
                  > > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart, or atma vichara, it
                  is
                  > > not being done.
                  > >
                  > > The problem with claiming you are perfect and are willing to
                  help
                  > > others is that you are making believe that you are permanent
                  > fixture
                  > > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated mental image.
                  > >
                  > > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto claiming
                  perfection in
                  > > that situation.
                  > > Love
                  > > Bobby G.
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Bobby,
                  >
                  > Important points. Interesting how the image of perfection is
                  often
                  > Not pronounced by the person to whom the "perfection image"
                  is
                  > attached to. Thereby, so and so can be "advertised" as a
                  Perfect
                  > living Master by his/her 'handlers', but that image is not
                  mouthed by
                  > him/her....like who stands up and says "Look, I'm Perfect"
                  > We've met godzillion followers who have attached this perfect
                  thing
                  > to Jesus, but would he have used such self-appraisal?
                  >
                  > For allowing the perpetuation of his/her image, could the
                  > said 'master' be accused of 'false modesty' and hypocrisy.
                  >
                  > Your points probably had more local figures in mind, not
                  > those "exalted' Gurus of ole...
                  >
                  > thanks.


                  G: "I and the Father are One! " " if you have seen me you have
                  seen the Father that sent me ".

                  some see humility with the pointing to truth beyond the words
                  and some saw His words as blasphemous and yes once again
                  self promoting .... same dynamics as happens today...... it is
                  all in who is hearing, and their take on what is being pointed to
                  ........ if you think that everyone was behind Christ and His
                  teaching then look at the controversy of the hierarchy and in his
                  own words ......

                  there were times he spoke in upliftment and times he spoke
                  with frank truth ..... He healed the sick and overturned the tables
                  in the temple courtyards ..... He said turn your back on sin and
                  said let the dead bury the dead...... He spoke of coming to heal
                  the sick and not the well while He called the Religious Hierarchy
                  Sepulcars of bleached bones...... He also said he came to
                  bring a sword and not peace..... why ? to cleave away the
                  ignorance with truth.....

                  Christ was a rebel - a mover - a shaker - He spoke the Truth
                  as it IS and didn't mince words .... people have romanticized
                  Him into a vapid and weak image..... At times He was the lamb
                  and other times the lion...... but always He was serving others in
                  whatever way possible.......

                  shanti om
                • G
                  ... texasbg2000 ... and ... hard ... damned ... easy ... blame ... that ... regardless of ... is ... help ... perfection in ... often ... is ... Perfect ...
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    "cornelius" <d_agenda2000@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    "texasbg2000"
                    > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                    > > The Question of Perfection
                    > >
                    > > I don't see a difference in someone saying they are perfect
                    and
                    > > someone who never admits to being wrong.
                    > >
                    > > It is the karma of life that puts one in between a rock and a
                    hard
                    > > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and damned if you do,
                    damned
                    > > if you don't situations. Everyone makes mistakes.
                    > >
                    > > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone who is an
                    easy
                    > target,
                    > > that is, someone who needs to be brought down a notch. No
                    blame
                    > > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to themselves!" The cry of the
                    > > people who deny hurting others. The thing wrong with that is
                    that
                    > we
                    > > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we deny we did
                    > anything.
                    > > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
                    > >
                    > > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the lesson, and
                    regardless of
                    > > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart, or atma vichara, it
                    is
                    > > not being done.
                    > >
                    > > The problem with claiming you are perfect and are willing to
                    help
                    > > others is that you are making believe that you are permanent
                    > fixture
                    > > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated mental image.
                    > >
                    > > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto claiming
                    perfection in
                    > > that situation.
                    > > Love
                    > > Bobby G.
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Bobby,
                    >
                    > Important points. Interesting how the image of perfection is
                    often
                    > Not pronounced by the person to whom the "perfection image"
                    is
                    > attached to. Thereby, so and so can be "advertised" as a
                    Perfect
                    > living Master by his/her 'handlers', but that image is not
                    mouthed by
                    > him/her....like who stands up and says "Look, I'm Perfect"
                    > We've met godzillion followers who have attached this perfect
                    thing
                    > to Jesus, but would he have used such self-appraisal?
                    >
                    > For allowing the perpetuation of his/her image, could the
                    > said 'master' be accused of 'false modesty' and hypocrisy.
                    >
                    > Your points probably had more local figures in mind, not
                    > those "exalted' Gurus of ole...
                    >
                    > thanks.


                    G: "I and the Father are One! " " if you have seen me you have
                    seen the Father that sent me ".

                    some see humility with the pointing to truth beyond the words
                    and some saw His words as blasphemous and yes once again
                    self promoting .... same dynamics as happens today...... it is
                    all in who is hearing, and their take on what is being pointed to
                    ........ if you think that everyone was behind Christ and His
                    teaching then look at the controversy of the hierarchy and in his
                    own words ......

                    there were times he spoke in upliftment and times he spoke
                    with frank truth ..... He healed the sick and overturned the tables
                    in the temple courtyards ..... He said turn your back on sin and
                    said let the dead bury the dead...... He spoke of coming to heal
                    the sick and not the well while He called the Religious Hierarchy
                    Sepulcars of bleached bones...... He also said he came to
                    bring a sword and not peace..... why ? to cleave away the
                    ignorance with truth.....

                    Christ was a rebel - a mover - a shaker - He spoke the Truth
                    as it IS and didn't mince words .... people have romanticized
                    Him into a vapid and weak image..... At times He was the lamb
                    and other times the lion...... but always He was serving others in
                    whatever way possible.......

                    shanti om
                  • jodyrrr
                    ... wrote: [snip] ... Gee G, comparing yourself to Christ, and all justified by what you just said. Neat trick! --jody.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G" <crystalkundalini@h...>
                      wrote:

                      [snip]

                      > G: "I and the Father are One! " " if you have seen me you have
                      > seen the Father that sent me ".
                      >
                      > some see humility with the pointing to truth beyond the words
                      > and some saw His words as blasphemous and yes once again
                      > self promoting .... same dynamics as happens today...... it is
                      > all in who is hearing, and their take on what is being pointed to
                      > ........ if you think that everyone was behind Christ and His
                      > teaching then look at the controversy of the hierarchy and in his
                      > own words ......
                      >
                      > there were times he spoke in upliftment and times he spoke
                      > with frank truth ..... He healed the sick and overturned the tables
                      > in the temple courtyards ..... He said turn your back on sin and
                      > said let the dead bury the dead...... He spoke of coming to heal
                      > the sick and not the well while He called the Religious Hierarchy
                      > Sepulcars of bleached bones...... He also said he came to
                      > bring a sword and not peace..... why ? to cleave away the
                      > ignorance with truth.....
                      >
                      > Christ was a rebel - a mover - a shaker - He spoke the Truth
                      > as it IS and didn't mince words .... people have romanticized
                      > Him into a vapid and weak image..... At times He was the lamb
                      > and other times the lion...... but always He was serving others in
                      > whatever way possible.......
                      >
                      > shanti om

                      Gee G, comparing yourself to Christ, and all justified by what
                      you just said.

                      Neat trick!

                      --jody.
                    • cornelius
                      Dear G, I like how you are looked at Bobby s points from the flipside . So, while there is cause for Need for Scepticism (the gist of many comments on
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                        Dear G,

                        I like how you are looked at Bobby's points from the "flipside".
                        So, while there is cause for Need for Scepticism (the gist of many
                        comments on 'perfection', you do remind that there is also a Need for
                        Trust. Moreover, one is to inquire about the turn to scepticism.
                        Harping on what's wrong with authoritative behavior is a sign of any
                        number of motivations. Authoritative behavior in and of itself is not
                        wrong. What's wrong is Agressiveness, self-promotion and the rest.
                        Authority comes in many different styles.
                        One wonders, where do the "problems" with authority begin and
                        problems with "her style" end?

                        I knew that I had fallen alittle under the spell of the "image of
                        enlightened person" when someone (Devi) wrote that an enlightened
                        being (whatever that is??) has their problems too (she wrote
                        something to that effect)...And I thought, OF Course!

                        But what are "problems"?
                        Allegies, a moral defect, or/and a Tax Audit?

                        In the grand scope, a "moral defect" is something to zero in on, but
                        the closest that some "enlightened beings" have gotten to having a MD
                        is for us what is there "Sexism" and even "Racism"....

                        I was go as far as to say that even if Thakar Singh was responsible
                        for using Blindfolding as a method of introducing Meditation to 5
                        year olders it does not qualify as a Defect (on his part)...

                        So, the effort of discerning 'imperfection' is dicey.

                        oooh--la la



                        > G: i don't think anyone is touting perfection here..... i
                        certainly am
                        > not ...... neither have i seen jeff or swami-ji or
                        maria........
                        >
                        > isn't the touting of being imperfect as a grand button of
                        (false
                        > humility) just as over the top....?
                        >
                        > isn't the misery that sees any type of authority or
                        confindance
                        > as a threat or a con or having an ulterior motive perhaps just
                        > a bit warped ? when one takes the stance that they have a
                        > moral duty to attempt to topple any teacher and bring them
                        > down a notch, shows a lack of respect for the validity of
                        > Truth...
                        >
                        > perhaps what is being given is Truth from the Core of Being...
                        > that has nothing to do with an egotistical endeavor at
                        all.......
                        > that is proclaiming the glad news that it IS ..... it
                        Exists .......
                        > and is available to All Equally..... that is speaking to
                        > removing doubt , shadows and self created bondage........
                        > where is the ego in that ?
                        >
                        > of course if one is looking for an ulterior motive or ego
                        that is
                        > what their mind is looking for and will create in your own
                        > minds eye what you hope to find whether it is there or
                        not.....
                        > (after all that will justify your actions towards others)
                        >
                        > those speaking from knowing are speaking from a changed
                        > consciousness ---- of course the personality delivers it
                        > in whatever manner that the residual parabdha remains.....
                        > while the consciousness may be totally changed the way
                        > the personality speaks may not..... that in no way is an
                        > indication of attachment to form, mind or egoic bondage.....
                        >
                        > Once again i haven't seen *anyone* speaking from the position
                        > of saying or implying that they are perfect ...... if that is the
                        > cognition of those that are listening..... then perhaps it is
                        within
                        > their own conceptualization that may be projecting a feeling and
                        > seeing of an attitude which has perhaps nothing to do with the
                        > consciousness of the one that is sharing ...... that is a
                        personal
                        > opinion based upon simply looking at externals and taking it to
                        > be the whole and the reality of consciousness ..... simply it
                        > may not be .....
                        >
                        > in looking at someone can you tell if they are a psychic or not ?
                        >
                        > can you tell a mass murderer at first glance ? if you could they
                        > wouldn't be successful but would be caught immediately......
                        >
                        > just as readily you cannot tell what is within the consciouness
                        > of one that rests within Realization as a reality and not simply a
                        > philosophy by the way their external actions may appear (unless
                        > they are grossly out of line) ........
                        >
                        > neither can those that write scathing books about people like
                        > Mother Theresa say what was within her mind, heart , and
                        > actions as she and she alone knows what is there...... others
                        > may judge only surface actions which they will either agree with
                        > or rage against wanting to find a chink to pull apart if it would
                        > support their own positions ....... it would be better if they
                        > focused on their own lives and motivations rather than
                        > attempting to ascribe the motivations and ulterior motives to
                        > others..... for the tree they are barking up is more than likely
                        the
                        > wrong one ....... it may be found that it is their own tree
                        which
                        > may be needing a pruning .........
                        >
                        >
                        > shanti om
                        >
                        >
                        > shanti om
                      • G
                        ... ... have seen the Father that sent me . some see humility with the pointing to truth beyond the words and some saw His words
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                          <crystalkundalini@h...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > [snip]
                          >
                          > > G: "I and the Father are One! " " if you have seen me you
                          have seen the Father that sent me ". some see humility with
                          the pointing to truth beyond the words and some saw His words
                          as blasphemous and yes once again self promoting .... same
                          dynamics as happens today...... it is all in who is hearing, and
                          their take on what is being pointed to ........ if you think that
                          teaching then look at the controversy of the hierarchy and in his
                          > > own words ......
                          > >
                          > > there were times he spoke in upliftment and times he spoke
                          > > with frank truth ..... He healed the sick and overturned the
                          tables
                          > > in the temple courtyards ..... He said turn your back on sin
                          and
                          > > said let the dead bury the dead...... He spoke of coming to
                          heal
                          > > the sick and not the well while He called the Religious
                          Hierarchy
                          > > Sepulcars of bleached bones...... He also said he came to
                          > > bring a sword and not peace..... why ? to cleave away the
                          > > ignorance with truth.....
                          > >
                          > > Christ was a rebel - a mover - a shaker - He spoke the
                          Truth
                          > > as it IS and didn't mince words .... people have
                          romanticized
                          > > Him into a vapid and weak image..... At times He was the
                          lamb
                          > > and other times the lion...... but always He was serving
                          others in
                          > > whatever way possible.......
                          > >
                          > > shanti om
                          >
                          > Gee G, comparing yourself to Christ, and all justified by what
                          > you just said.
                          >
                          > Neat trick!
                          >
                          > --jody.


                          G: where is my name anywhere in the post ? your venom is
                          noted......

                          if you look closely this is what was apparent in Christs time and
                          through His words ..... His words are still applicable and the
                          demeanor and times have not changed much as mankind is still
                          wading through the same sufferings and ignorance as then .......

                          speaking forthrightly and with honesty from the heart isn't always
                          popular, but then i am not here to win any popularity contest.......
                          neither is there a need to down those that speak with Authority
                          such as Christ or any Sages or Realized Ones......

                          when one that rests in the Truth of Realization, words will mirror
                          one another as there is only One Source that breaks the
                          conditioned mind......

                          for those languishing in sarcasm and venomous spewings they
                          will only see what their minds eye will allow...... when surrender
                          isn't forthcoming openly , then one will rage until a corner is
                          reached where nothing remains that may be done but to
                          surrender...... Source then pulls away the shadows and
                          stirrings of unrequited pain until the pain is no more ...... the
                          mental strivings are no more...... Life IS ...... Love IS..... and the
                          way which was obscured becomes clarity itself........

                          shanti om
                        • Bruce Morgen
                          ... Actually, Jesus was quite an adroit word-mincer -- he spoke in parables in order to teach without attracting untoward attention from civil and religious
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                            On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 18:23:21 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@...> writes:
                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                            > <crystalkundalini@h...>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > [snip]
                            >
                            > > G: "I and the Father are One! " " if you have seen me you have
                            > > seen the Father that sent me ".
                            > >
                            > > some see humility with the pointing to truth beyond the words
                            > > and some saw His words as blasphemous and yes once again
                            > > self promoting .... same dynamics as happens today...... it
                            > is
                            > > all in who is hearing, and their take on what is being pointed to
                            >
                            > > ........ if you think that everyone was behind Christ and His
                            > > teaching then look at the controversy of the hierarchy and in his
                            >
                            > > own words ......
                            > >
                            > > there were times he spoke in upliftment and times he spoke
                            > > with frank truth ..... He healed the sick and overturned the
                            > tables
                            > > in the temple courtyards ..... He said turn your back on sin and
                            >
                            > > said let the dead bury the dead...... He spoke of coming to
                            > heal
                            > > the sick and not the well while He called the Religious Hierarchy
                            >
                            > > Sepulcars of bleached bones...... He also said he came to
                            > > bring a sword and not peace..... why ? to cleave away the
                            > > ignorance with truth.....
                            > >
                            > > Christ was a rebel - a mover - a shaker - He spoke the Truth
                            > > as it IS and didn't mince words .... people have romanticized
                            > > Him into a vapid and weak image..... At times He was the lamb
                            > > and other times the lion...... but always He was serving others
                            > in
                            > > whatever way possible.......
                            > >
                            > > shanti om
                            >
                            > Gee G, comparing yourself to Christ, and all justified by what
                            > you just said.
                            >
                            > Neat trick!
                            >
                            Actually, Jesus was quite an
                            adroit word-mincer -- he
                            spoke in parables in order to
                            teach without attracting
                            untoward attention from civil
                            and religious authorities,
                            although this was a strategy
                            that ulimately failed (or did
                            it?).

                            Like America's own Sri Walt
                            Whitman and many of our
                            present-day realizers, Jesus
                            was "vast" and could have
                            truthfully said "I contain
                            multitudes." Just as the
                            embodied natural law is
                            fluid and effortlessly
                            situational, the modus
                            operandi of the realizer
                            adapts to the demands of the
                            moment.

                            It's quite odd to claim that
                            Jesus "spoke the Truth as it
                            IS" while at the same time
                            stating that "At times He
                            was the lamb and other times
                            the lion." As a matter of
                            fact, it's quite impossible
                            to put "the Truth as it is"
                            directly into words, so it's
                            just a matter of what (and
                            how much) "mincing" is
                            appropriate to the audience
                            of the era and to the moment
                            at hand. Some of us are
                            more adept at this sort of
                            dancing than others, and
                            going by Gospel accounts
                            Jesus was the greatest (or
                            at least the most famous)
                            adept of his time and place.

                            __________________________________________________
                            http://come.to/realization
                            http://www.atman.net/realization
                            http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
                            http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

                            ________________________________________________________________
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                          • jodyrrr
                            ... [snip] ... You are quite correct. It just occurred to me at my neighbor s house. I rushed back to confess and find you have already rightfully pointed
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G" <crystalkundalini@h...>
                              wrote:
                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                              > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:

                              [snip]

                              > > Gee G, comparing yourself to Christ, and all justified by what
                              > > you just said.
                              > >
                              > > Neat trick!
                              > >
                              > > --jody.
                              >
                              >
                              > G: where is my name anywhere in the post ? your venom is
                              > noted......

                              You are quite correct. It just occurred to me at my
                              neighbor's house. I rushed back to confess and find
                              you have already rightfully pointed out what I was
                              about to.

                              However, I would suggest that you *are* comparing
                              yourself to Christ in an implied way. You may not
                              be conscious of this, but it comes off that way through
                              to this mind.

                              You responded to a thread that was essentially about
                              your handling of the kundalini discussion with Bob
                              Graham. The pattern prevailed there. You characterized
                              Bob as ignorant of the truth of kundalini, and he saw
                              you (to this mind) as someone invested in *always* being
                              correct as a reflection of your perfection as guru.

                              I chime in every now and then commenting on how
                              convenient it was for someone with a guru shingle
                              out to always be right, and how touting your experience
                              was shameless self-promotion.

                              Then another offers his opinion, and points out that
                              the commentary is probably about local gurus rather
                              than famous ones.

                              Immediately comes your Jesus story, with its description
                              of how Jesus was always blowing his own horn and
                              breaking the rules and not being very humble at all.

                              That's convenient for the person who's battling the
                              perception that she thinks she's perfect.

                              And so I open that rattlesnake drawer once again.

                              And now we can see how I came to the decision
                              to do so.

                              > if you look closely this is what was apparent in Christs time and
                              > through His words ..... His words are still applicable and the
                              > demeanor and times have not changed much as mankind is still
                              > wading through the same sufferings and ignorance as then .......
                              >
                              > speaking forthrightly and with honesty from the heart isn't always
                              > popular, but then i am not here to win any popularity contest.......
                              > neither is there a need to down those that speak with Authority
                              > such as Christ or any Sages or Realized Ones......
                              >
                              > when one that rests in the Truth of Realization, words will mirror
                              > one another as there is only One Source that breaks the
                              > conditioned mind......
                              >
                              > for those languishing in sarcasm and venomous spewings they
                              > will only see what their minds eye will allow...... when surrender
                              > isn't forthcoming openly , then one will rage until a corner is
                              > reached where nothing remains that may be done but to
                              > surrender...... Source then pulls away the shadows and
                              > stirrings of unrequited pain until the pain is no more ...... the
                              > mental strivings are no more...... Life IS ...... Love IS..... and the
                              > way which was obscured becomes clarity itself........
                              >
                              > shanti om

                              Just like myself, you argue from a position of "superior"
                              understanding. That is, you believe you know the truth,
                              and that I am deluded. I would say, you know the truth,
                              but you cannot see that I do, because it exists in the
                              narrow hallway known as Ganga.

                              It is The Pattern, you characterizing me as "languishing in
                              sarcasm and venomous spewings" and me doing you as
                              someone who compares herself to Christ as advertising.

                              Wheeeee!

                              --jody.
                            • cornelius
                              ... the ... it ... is ... tables ... Egadz, Yahoo! where is my last post??... Anyway, Dear, why do you go on about Christ...if you are using him just to make
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                > "cornelius" <d_agenda2000@y...> wrote:
                                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                > "texasbg2000"
                                > > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                                > > > The Question of Perfection
                                > > >
                                > > > I don't see a difference in someone saying they are perfect
                                > and
                                > > > someone who never admits to being wrong.
                                > > >
                                > > > It is the karma of life that puts one in between a rock and a
                                > hard
                                > > > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and damned if you do,
                                > damned
                                > > > if you don't situations. Everyone makes mistakes.
                                > > >
                                > > > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone who is an
                                > easy
                                > > target,
                                > > > that is, someone who needs to be brought down a notch. No
                                > blame
                                > > > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to themselves!" The cry of
                                the
                                > > > people who deny hurting others. The thing wrong with that is
                                > that
                                > > we
                                > > > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we deny we did
                                > > anything.
                                > > > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
                                > > >
                                > > > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the lesson, and
                                > regardless of
                                > > > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart, or atma vichara,
                                it
                                > is
                                > > > not being done.
                                > > >
                                > > > The problem with claiming you are perfect and are willing to
                                > help
                                > > > others is that you are making believe that you are permanent
                                > > fixture
                                > > > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated mental image.
                                > > >
                                > > > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto claiming
                                > perfection in
                                > > > that situation.
                                > > > Love
                                > > > Bobby G.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hi Bobby,
                                > >
                                > > Important points. Interesting how the image of perfection is
                                > often
                                > > Not pronounced by the person to whom the "perfection image"
                                > is
                                > > attached to. Thereby, so and so can be "advertised" as a
                                > Perfect
                                > > living Master by his/her 'handlers', but that image is not
                                > mouthed by
                                > > him/her....like who stands up and says "Look, I'm Perfect"
                                > > We've met godzillion followers who have attached this perfect
                                > thing
                                > > to Jesus, but would he have used such self-appraisal?
                                > >
                                > > For allowing the perpetuation of his/her image, could the
                                > > said 'master' be accused of 'false modesty' and hypocrisy.
                                > >
                                > > Your points probably had more local figures in mind, not
                                > > those "exalted' Gurus of ole...
                                > >
                                > > thanks.
                                >
                                >
                                > G: "I and the Father are One! " " if you have seen me you have
                                > seen the Father that sent me ".
                                >
                                > some see humility with the pointing to truth beyond the words
                                > and some saw His words as blasphemous and yes once again
                                > self promoting .... same dynamics as happens today...... it
                                is
                                > all in who is hearing, and their take on what is being pointed to
                                > ........ if you think that everyone was behind Christ and His
                                > teaching then look at the controversy of the hierarchy and in his
                                > own words ......
                                >
                                > there were times he spoke in upliftment and times he spoke
                                > with frank truth ..... He healed the sick and overturned the
                                tables
                                > in the temple courtyards ..... He said turn your back on sin and
                                > said let the dead bury the dead...... He spoke of coming to heal
                                > the sick and not the well while He called the Religious Hierarchy
                                > Sepulcars of bleached bones...... He also said he came to
                                > bring a sword and not peace..... why ? to cleave away the
                                > ignorance with truth.....
                                >
                                > Christ was a rebel - a mover - a shaker - He spoke the Truth
                                > as it IS and didn't mince words .... people have romanticized
                                > Him into a vapid and weak image..... At times He was the lamb
                                > and other times the lion...... but always He was serving others in
                                > whatever way possible.......
                                >
                                > shanti om

                                "Egadz, Yahoo! where is my last post??..."

                                Anyway, Dear, why do you go on about Christ...if you are using him
                                just to make YOur point, I guess I understand. But I'm beginning to
                                think that you have a policy AGAIngst using "moderns" as Examples.
                                For me, this Christ thing indicates your "christian" bias. No big
                                deal...

                                Question: While don't you use someone like Bhagawan Rajneesh, as a
                                model for the "heroic" (i.e., the rebel) figure?
                                a picky little question indeed but...

                                merrily met
                              • G
                                ... many ... Need for ... any ... not ... rest. ... and ... enlightened ... but ... having a MD ... responsible ... 5 ... G: there are so many fallacies
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                  "cornelius" <d_agenda2000@y...> wrote:
                                  > Dear G,
                                  >
                                  > I like how you are looked at Bobby's points from the "flipside".
                                  > So, while there is cause for Need for Scepticism (the gist of
                                  many
                                  > comments on 'perfection', you do remind that there is also a
                                  Need for
                                  > Trust. Moreover, one is to inquire about the turn to scepticism.
                                  > Harping on what's wrong with authoritative behavior is a sign of
                                  any
                                  > number of motivations. Authoritative behavior in and of itself is
                                  not
                                  > wrong. What's wrong is Agressiveness, self-promotion and the
                                  rest.
                                  > Authority comes in many different styles.
                                  > One wonders, where do the "problems" with authority begin
                                  and
                                  > problems with "her style" end?
                                  >
                                  > I knew that I had fallen alittle under the spell of the "image of
                                  > enlightened person" when someone (Devi) wrote that an
                                  enlightened
                                  > being (whatever that is??) has their problems too (she wrote
                                  > something to that effect)...And I thought, OF Course!
                                  >
                                  > But what are "problems"?
                                  > Allegies, a moral defect, or/and a Tax Audit?
                                  >
                                  > In the grand scope, a "moral defect" is something to zero in on,
                                  but
                                  > the closest that some "enlightened beings" have gotten to
                                  having a MD
                                  > is for us what is there "Sexism" and even "Racism"....
                                  >
                                  > I was go as far as to say that even if Thakar Singh was
                                  responsible
                                  > for using Blindfolding as a method of introducing Meditation to
                                  5
                                  > year olders it does not qualify as a Defect (on his part)...
                                  >
                                  > So, the effort of discerning 'imperfection' is dicey.
                                  >
                                  > oooh--la la



                                  G: there are so many fallacies regarding with realization and
                                  enlightenment at to what it is and isn't...... it doesn't turn the
                                  world into an airy fairy land..... day to day life goes on and yet
                                  there is no longer being caught up in whatever comes..... one
                                  doesn't become a God or a Superman or Woman...... God
                                  though is Known, and it is ONE, and it is the core Essense of all
                                  Being ..... the paradox.....

                                  so-called problems are taken in stride whereas before it would
                                  rock your world...... ( problems ?) are no longer whirl-pools that
                                  pull one into a mire of fear , or what ifs ........ now they are
                                  bumps in the road that bring with it a curiosity as to how it will
                                  move forward ...... what new wrinkle of unfolding and discovery
                                  will it hold....... they are now adventures and not intrusions of
                                  woe is me......

                                  what problems are there when all is transient in the material
                                  world...... ? what problems are there when it is Known that this
                                  material world is simply a minor reflection of a much larger and
                                  greater One......

                                  what changes are not the peripheral externals but the whole
                                  dynamic of consciousness ..... there is a vast shift that
                                  happens..... the whole world changes in one instant internally
                                  ----- while externally things may appear to be exactly the
                                  same......

                                  the identification with a limitational form that is headed towards
                                  death ends....... that is over..... the holding onto name ,
                                  attempts to strive at fame or power end ( essense is One
                                  valuations are within societal frameworks alone) ..... the Joy of
                                  Living and importance of Love is entered...... the mists of
                                  shadowy fears end once and for all......... the bondages carried
                                  of past events end once and for all........ the colorizations that
                                  were held due to the conditioned past events may end once and
                                  for all....... Who you are not is known......

                                  an overall Peace remains no matter what external situation
                                  makes an appearance ..... emotions come and go like waves
                                  and yet they don't remain as overwhelming tidal waves..... the
                                  mind stills immediately when not engaged ...... even in the
                                  midst of activity is that all pervading stillness......

                                  how can this be transmitted ? it is Liberation.... it is the Core of
                                  humanity once the shadows have lifted and been laid bare.......



                                  shanti om
                                • G
                                  ... him just to make YOur point, I guess I understand. But I m beginning to think that you have a policy AGAIngst using moderns as Examples. G: no i
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                    > "Egadz, Yahoo! where is my last post??..."
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, Dear, why do you go on about Christ...if you are using
                                    him just to make YOur point, I guess I understand. But I'm
                                    beginning to think that you have a policy AGAIngst using
                                    "moderns" as Examples.

                                    G: no i have no such policy ......

                                    ** > For me, this Christ thing indicates your "christian" bias. No
                                    big deal...

                                    g: i speak equally to hindu , buddhist as well as christian.... in
                                    fact much more towards hindu and zen than christian...... so
                                    there is no bias there......


                                    *** Question: While don't you use someone like Bhagawan
                                    Rajneesh, as a model for the "heroic" (i.e., the rebel) figure?
                                    > a picky little question indeed but...

                                    G: simply the words and life of Christ is known to me much
                                    more minutely than the life and words of Rajneesh.....

                                    i agree with some of Rajneesh's pointings but also think he
                                    went way overboard and the path became unbalanced to the
                                    other side of breaking the taboo's of sex and instead of breaking
                                    through conditionings on many levels he succeeded in only
                                    creating new ones .. .....

                                    i use many times the visual aides and lives of Sri Ramana or
                                    Rama Krishna as illustrations although they are also passed as
                                    well as Rajneesh.....

                                    many more know the words of Christ versus Ramana or Rama
                                    Krishna ..... that is why i used Him as a pointing and indicator
                                    in this case...... and also His life and words were also the most
                                    obvious example of what was being indicated and pointed in the
                                    direction of .....

                                    Jeff is the one that is mostly Christian based and oriented .... my
                                    view is quite eclectic between the 3 major religious
                                    persuations......

                                    shanti om
                                  • G
                                    ... ... jodyrrr ... what ... and ... still ... always ... contest....... ... Authority ... mirror ... they ... surrender ... the ...
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                      <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                      <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                      "jodyrrr"
                                      > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > [snip]
                                      >
                                      > > > Gee G, comparing yourself to Christ, and all justified by
                                      what
                                      > > > you just said.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Neat trick!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --jody.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > G: where is my name anywhere in the post ? your venom is
                                      > > noted......
                                      >
                                      > You are quite correct. It just occurred to me at my
                                      > neighbor's house. I rushed back to confess and find
                                      > you have already rightfully pointed out what I was
                                      > about to.
                                      >
                                      > However, I would suggest that you *are* comparing
                                      > yourself to Christ in an implied way. You may not
                                      > be conscious of this, but it comes off that way through
                                      > to this mind.
                                      >
                                      > You responded to a thread that was essentially about
                                      > your handling of the kundalini discussion with Bob
                                      > Graham. The pattern prevailed there. You characterized
                                      > Bob as ignorant of the truth of kundalini, and he saw
                                      > you (to this mind) as someone invested in *always* being
                                      > correct as a reflection of your perfection as guru.
                                      >
                                      > I chime in every now and then commenting on how
                                      > convenient it was for someone with a guru shingle
                                      > out to always be right, and how touting your experience
                                      > was shameless self-promotion.
                                      >
                                      > Then another offers his opinion, and points out that
                                      > the commentary is probably about local gurus rather
                                      > than famous ones.
                                      >
                                      > Immediately comes your Jesus story, with its description
                                      > of how Jesus was always blowing his own horn and
                                      > breaking the rules and not being very humble at all.
                                      >
                                      > That's convenient for the person who's battling the
                                      > perception that she thinks she's perfect.
                                      >
                                      > And so I open that rattlesnake drawer once again.
                                      >
                                      > And now we can see how I came to the decision
                                      > to do so.
                                      >
                                      > > if you look closely this is what was apparent in Christs time
                                      and
                                      > > through His words ..... His words are still applicable and the
                                      > > demeanor and times have not changed much as mankind is
                                      still
                                      > > wading through the same sufferings and ignorance as then
                                      .......
                                      > >
                                      > > speaking forthrightly and with honesty from the heart isn't
                                      always
                                      > > popular, but then i am not here to win any popularity
                                      contest.......
                                      > > neither is there a need to down those that speak with
                                      Authority
                                      > > such as Christ or any Sages or Realized Ones......
                                      > >
                                      > > when one that rests in the Truth of Realization, words will
                                      mirror
                                      > > one another as there is only One Source that breaks the
                                      > > conditioned mind......
                                      > >
                                      > > for those languishing in sarcasm and venomous spewings
                                      they
                                      > > will only see what their minds eye will allow...... when
                                      surrender
                                      > > isn't forthcoming openly , then one will rage until a corner is
                                      > > reached where nothing remains that may be done but to
                                      > > surrender...... Source then pulls away the shadows and
                                      > > stirrings of unrequited pain until the pain is no more ...... the
                                      > > mental strivings are no more...... Life IS ...... Love IS..... and
                                      the
                                      > > way which was obscured becomes clarity itself........
                                      > >
                                      > > shanti om
                                      >
                                      > Just like myself, you argue from a position of "superior"
                                      > understanding. That is, you believe you know the truth,
                                      > and that I am deluded. I would say, you know the truth,
                                      > but you cannot see that I do, because it exists in the
                                      > narrow hallway known as Ganga.
                                      >
                                      > It is The Pattern, you characterizing me as "languishing in
                                      > sarcasm and venomous spewings" and me doing you as
                                      > someone who compares herself to Christ as advertising.
                                      >
                                      > Wheeeee!
                                      >
                                      > --jody.


                                      G: the point was being made simply that in Christs day there
                                      were those (mostly of the religious persuation) that saw His
                                      words as also self promotion (I and the Father are One)
                                      - speaking with authority ( by what authority do your speak these
                                      words) etc. etc.......

                                      this is nothing new......

                                      also it happened with Kabir .... while alive both sides wanted to
                                      do away with him.... when he passed both sides argued that he
                                      was a part of their lineage.....
                                      while he spoke with what many would term caustic pointings of
                                      truth and honesty....... it was only valued once his mortal form
                                      shuffled off the planet....... then they could take what they
                                      wanted and disgard the rest .... there was no longer any
                                      *personality* to deal with ......

                                      it has nothing to do with any superior position .... what is
                                      superior in One Essense..... there only appears to be
                                      distinction based upon shadows of segregation which hold pain
                                      and suffering as a base for understanding..... this never
                                      works..... as you know one can't make it better but must come
                                      to a total surrender in which it dies ----- leaving what cannot
                                      die..........

                                      shanti om
                                    • texasbg2000
                                      ... the ... certainly am Hi G. I have not heard you say you were wrong or lacking in any way. This either means you were never wrong, or you were and you just
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                        <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                        > "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                                        > > The Question of Perfection
                                        > >
                                        > > I don't see a difference in someone saying they are perfect and
                                        > > someone who never admits to being wrong.
                                        > >
                                        > > It is the karma of life that puts one in between a rock and a
                                        > hard
                                        > > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and damned if you do,
                                        > damned
                                        > > if you don't situations. Everyone makes mistakes.
                                        > >
                                        > > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone who is an easy
                                        > target,
                                        > > that is, someone who needs to be brought down a notch. No
                                        > blame
                                        > > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to themselves!" The cry of
                                        the
                                        > > people who deny hurting others. The thing wrong with that is
                                        > that we
                                        > > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we deny we did
                                        > anything.
                                        > > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
                                        > >
                                        > > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the lesson, and
                                        > regardless of
                                        > > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart, or atma vichara, it
                                        > is
                                        > > not being done.
                                        > >
                                        > > The problem with claiming you are perfect and are willing to
                                        > help
                                        > > others is that you are making believe that you are permanent
                                        > fixture
                                        > > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated mental image.
                                        > >
                                        > > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto claiming
                                        > perfection in
                                        > > that situation.
                                        > > Love
                                        > > Bobby G.
                                        >
                                        > G: i don't think anyone is touting perfection here..... i
                                        certainly am

                                        Hi G.

                                        I have not heard you say you were wrong or lacking in any way.
                                        This either means you were never wrong, or you were and you just
                                        don't know it or know it and won't admit it.

                                        But you say someone like me cannot adequately see your motivations
                                        and actions because you are enlightened and I am not. What I see may
                                        not be accurate.

                                        It is a simple mistake to make. How can you expect me or anyone to
                                        accept that as a 'reason' if I have not accepted you as faultless.
                                        Now you say you are not claiming to be faultless.

                                        Perhaps that is not clear.

                                        If I were speaking to a herd of cows, and one spoke back to me with
                                        skepticism and I answered, "You are a cow and cannot possibly
                                        understand', wouldn't I be admitting a mistake when I addressed the
                                        cows in the first place?

                                        I hope you don't think I am picking on you. I am just pointing out a
                                        mistake I think you are making.

                                        I think this is a difficult thing to talk about and I hope you see it
                                        is just an intellectual effort and not a personal one.

                                        Love
                                        Bobby G.



                                        > not ...... neither have i seen jeff or swami-ji or
                                        maria........
                                        >
                                        > isn't the touting of being imperfect as a grand button of
                                        (false
                                        > humility) just as over the top....?
                                        >
                                        > isn't the misery that sees any type of authority or
                                        confindance
                                        > as a threat or a con or having an ulterior motive perhaps just
                                        > a bit warped ? when one takes the stance that they have a
                                        > moral duty to attempt to topple any teacher and bring them
                                        > down a notch, shows a lack of respect for the validity of
                                        > Truth...
                                        >
                                        > perhaps what is being given is Truth from the Core of Being...
                                        > that has nothing to do with an egotistical endeavor at
                                        all.......
                                        > that is proclaiming the glad news that it IS ..... it
                                        Exists .......
                                        > and is available to All Equally..... that is speaking to
                                        > removing doubt , shadows and self created bondage........
                                        > where is the ego in that ?
                                        >
                                        > of course if one is looking for an ulterior motive or ego
                                        that is
                                        > what their mind is looking for and will create in your own
                                        > minds eye what you hope to find whether it is there or
                                        not.....
                                        > (after all that will justify your actions towards others)
                                        >
                                        > those speaking from knowing are speaking from a changed
                                        > consciousness ---- of course the personality delivers it
                                        > in whatever manner that the residual parabdha remains.....
                                        > while the consciousness may be totally changed the way
                                        > the personality speaks may not..... that in no way is an
                                        > indication of attachment to form, mind or egoic bondage.....
                                        >
                                        > Once again i haven't seen *anyone* speaking from the position
                                        > of saying or implying that they are perfect ...... if that is the
                                        > cognition of those that are listening..... then perhaps it is
                                        within
                                        > their own conceptualization that may be projecting a feeling and
                                        > seeing of an attitude which has perhaps nothing to do with the
                                        > consciousness of the one that is sharing ...... that is a
                                        personal
                                        > opinion based upon simply looking at externals and taking it to
                                        > be the whole and the reality of consciousness ..... simply it
                                        > may not be .....
                                        >
                                        > in looking at someone can you tell if they are a psychic or not ?
                                        >
                                        > can you tell a mass murderer at first glance ? if you could they
                                        > wouldn't be successful but would be caught immediately......
                                        >
                                        > just as readily you cannot tell what is within the consciouness
                                        > of one that rests within Realization as a reality and not simply a
                                        > philosophy by the way their external actions may appear (unless
                                        > they are grossly out of line) ........
                                        >
                                        > neither can those that write scathing books about people like
                                        > Mother Theresa say what was within her mind, heart , and
                                        > actions as she and she alone knows what is there...... others
                                        > may judge only surface actions which they will either agree with
                                        > or rage against wanting to find a chink to pull apart if it would
                                        > support their own positions ....... it would be better if they
                                        > focused on their own lives and motivations rather than
                                        > attempting to ascribe the motivations and ulterior motives to
                                        > others..... for the tree they are barking up is more than likely
                                        the
                                        > wrong one ....... it may be found that it is their own tree
                                        which
                                        > may be needing a pruning .........
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > shanti om
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > shanti om
                                      • texasbg2000
                                        ... hard ... damned ... the ... that ... of ... is ... in ... by ... Exactly Cornelius. I am a big fan of Jesus and Buddha. I don t think either ever tried
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cornelius"
                                          <d_agenda2000@y...> wrote:
                                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                                          > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                                          > > The Question of Perfection
                                          > >
                                          > > I don't see a difference in someone saying they are perfect and
                                          > > someone who never admits to being wrong.
                                          > >
                                          > > It is the karma of life that puts one in between a rock and a
                                          hard
                                          > > spot, the devil and the deep blue sea, and damned if you do,
                                          damned
                                          > > if you don't situations. Everyone makes mistakes.
                                          > >
                                          > > If you want to hurt someone, you pick someone who is an easy
                                          > target,
                                          > > that is, someone who needs to be brought down a notch. No blame
                                          > > there. "I didn't do it, they did it to themselves!" The cry of
                                          the
                                          > > people who deny hurting others. The thing wrong with that is
                                          that
                                          > we
                                          > > don't feel that way when it is done to us, we deny we did
                                          > anything.
                                          > > It is a double standard and reveals a mistake.
                                          > >
                                          > > Deny the mistake and you don't learn the lesson, and regardless
                                          of
                                          > > rhetoric about looking into one's own heart, or atma vichara, it
                                          is
                                          > > not being done.
                                          > >
                                          > > The problem with claiming you are perfect and are willing to help
                                          > > others is that you are making believe that you are permanent
                                          > fixture
                                          > > instead of a transient, temporary, fabricated mental image.
                                          > >
                                          > > Each time you deny a mistake you are defacto claiming perfection
                                          in
                                          > > that situation.
                                          > > Love
                                          > > Bobby G.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Bobby,
                                          >
                                          > Important points. Interesting how the image of perfection is often
                                          > Not pronounced by the person to whom the "perfection image" is
                                          > attached to. Thereby, so and so can be "advertised" as a Perfect
                                          > living Master by his/her 'handlers', but that image is not mouthed
                                          by
                                          > him/her....like who stands up and says "Look, I'm Perfect"
                                          > We've met godzillion followers who have attached this perfect thing
                                          > to Jesus, but would he have used such self-appraisal?
                                          >
                                          > For allowing the perpetuation of his/her image, could the
                                          > said 'master' be accused of 'false modesty' and hypocrisy.
                                          >
                                          > Your points probably had more local figures in mind, not
                                          > those "exalted' Gurus of ole...

                                          Exactly Cornelius. I am a big fan of Jesus and Buddha. I don't
                                          think either ever tried to get people to just accept a teaching
                                          because the teacher is enlightened, the "just shut up and do it!"
                                          approach. It is all about getting the person to realize on their
                                          own.

                                          The example that comes to mind is the one where the Buddha is asked
                                          if a dog has Buddha nature, and he just holds up a flower instead of
                                          speaking. What I got from that and the questioner probably did too
                                          was that Buddha nature is not in the mind to be pointed to by
                                          answering a question.

                                          Later,
                                          Bobby G.

                                          >
                                          > thanks.
                                        • jodyrrr
                                          ... Sure, whatever. But what about The Pattern? Don t you see your role in its generation? That you are as every bit as guilty as myself and Jeff? --jody.
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G" <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                            > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                            > <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > "jodyrrr"
                                            > > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > [snip]
                                            > >
                                            > > > > Gee G, comparing yourself to Christ, and all justified by
                                            > what
                                            > > > > you just said.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Neat trick!
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --jody.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > G: where is my name anywhere in the post ? your venom is
                                            > > > noted......
                                            > >
                                            > > You are quite correct. It just occurred to me at my
                                            > > neighbor's house. I rushed back to confess and find
                                            > > you have already rightfully pointed out what I was
                                            > > about to.
                                            > >
                                            > > However, I would suggest that you *are* comparing
                                            > > yourself to Christ in an implied way. You may not
                                            > > be conscious of this, but it comes off that way through
                                            > > to this mind.
                                            > >
                                            > > You responded to a thread that was essentially about
                                            > > your handling of the kundalini discussion with Bob
                                            > > Graham. The pattern prevailed there. You characterized
                                            > > Bob as ignorant of the truth of kundalini, and he saw
                                            > > you (to this mind) as someone invested in *always* being
                                            > > correct as a reflection of your perfection as guru.
                                            > >
                                            > > I chime in every now and then commenting on how
                                            > > convenient it was for someone with a guru shingle
                                            > > out to always be right, and how touting your experience
                                            > > was shameless self-promotion.
                                            > >
                                            > > Then another offers his opinion, and points out that
                                            > > the commentary is probably about local gurus rather
                                            > > than famous ones.
                                            > >
                                            > > Immediately comes your Jesus story, with its description
                                            > > of how Jesus was always blowing his own horn and
                                            > > breaking the rules and not being very humble at all.
                                            > >
                                            > > That's convenient for the person who's battling the
                                            > > perception that she thinks she's perfect.
                                            > >
                                            > > And so I open that rattlesnake drawer once again.
                                            > >
                                            > > And now we can see how I came to the decision
                                            > > to do so.
                                            > >
                                            > > > if you look closely this is what was apparent in Christs time
                                            > and
                                            > > > through His words ..... His words are still applicable and the
                                            > > > demeanor and times have not changed much as mankind is
                                            > still
                                            > > > wading through the same sufferings and ignorance as then
                                            > .......
                                            > > >
                                            > > > speaking forthrightly and with honesty from the heart isn't
                                            > always
                                            > > > popular, but then i am not here to win any popularity
                                            > contest.......
                                            > > > neither is there a need to down those that speak with
                                            > Authority
                                            > > > such as Christ or any Sages or Realized Ones......
                                            > > >
                                            > > > when one that rests in the Truth of Realization, words will
                                            > mirror
                                            > > > one another as there is only One Source that breaks the
                                            > > > conditioned mind......
                                            > > >
                                            > > > for those languishing in sarcasm and venomous spewings
                                            > they
                                            > > > will only see what their minds eye will allow...... when
                                            > surrender
                                            > > > isn't forthcoming openly , then one will rage until a corner is
                                            > > > reached where nothing remains that may be done but to
                                            > > > surrender...... Source then pulls away the shadows and
                                            > > > stirrings of unrequited pain until the pain is no more ...... the
                                            > > > mental strivings are no more...... Life IS ...... Love IS..... and
                                            > the
                                            > > > way which was obscured becomes clarity itself........
                                            > > >
                                            > > > shanti om
                                            > >
                                            > > Just like myself, you argue from a position of "superior"
                                            > > understanding. That is, you believe you know the truth,
                                            > > and that I am deluded. I would say, you know the truth,
                                            > > but you cannot see that I do, because it exists in the
                                            > > narrow hallway known as Ganga.
                                            > >
                                            > > It is The Pattern, you characterizing me as "languishing in
                                            > > sarcasm and venomous spewings" and me doing you as
                                            > > someone who compares herself to Christ as advertising.
                                            > >
                                            > > Wheeeee!
                                            > >
                                            > > --jody.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > G: the point was being made simply that in Christs day there
                                            > were those (mostly of the religious persuation) that saw His
                                            > words as also self promotion (I and the Father are One)
                                            > - speaking with authority ( by what authority do your speak these
                                            > words) etc. etc.......
                                            >
                                            > this is nothing new......
                                            >
                                            > also it happened with Kabir .... while alive both sides wanted to
                                            > do away with him.... when he passed both sides argued that he
                                            > was a part of their lineage.....
                                            > while he spoke with what many would term caustic pointings of
                                            > truth and honesty....... it was only valued once his mortal form
                                            > shuffled off the planet....... then they could take what they
                                            > wanted and disgard the rest .... there was no longer any
                                            > *personality* to deal with ......
                                            >
                                            > it has nothing to do with any superior position .... what is
                                            > superior in One Essense..... there only appears to be
                                            > distinction based upon shadows of segregation which hold pain
                                            > and suffering as a base for understanding..... this never
                                            > works..... as you know one can't make it better but must come
                                            > to a total surrender in which it dies ----- leaving what cannot
                                            > die..........
                                            >
                                            > shanti om

                                            Sure, whatever.

                                            But what about The Pattern?

                                            Don't you see your role in its generation? That you
                                            are as every bit as guilty as myself and Jeff?

                                            --jody.
                                          • G
                                            ... Hi and Namaste *** I have not heard you say you were wrong or lacking in any way. This either means you were never wrong, or you were and you just
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                              > Hi G.
                                              Hi and Namaste


                                              *** > I have not heard you say you were wrong or lacking in any
                                              way. This either means you were never wrong, or you were and
                                              you just don't know it or know it and won't admit it.

                                              g: what is lacking ? i don't feel any lack ..... so how can i admit
                                              lack when none is any longer felt..... ?

                                              there was my existing before realization and life now ...... it may
                                              only be said they are as different as night and day..... before was
                                              pain - seeking - searching - striving - doubt - questioning - all the
                                              agonies that go with it ..... fears and trepidations ..... where
                                              now there is none..... that is the truth of it ...... those that know
                                              me from before and now have wondered at what has
                                              happened..... they can see and feel there has been such an
                                              overwhelming change that cannot be explained .... one
                                              comment from my daughters boyfriend upon my return was
                                              "What happened? you really have it together now !!!! ... " those i
                                              was in counseling with can not believe it as now i am one of the
                                              most stable persons around whereas before i was depressed ,
                                              fearful, anxious and searching every avenue to stop the ongoing
                                              pain......

                                              are you asking if there are mistakes made or if i am perfect ?
                                              there are no judgements concerning those things..... there are
                                              no attempts to be a certain way....... nothing to maintain ....... i
                                              only know that now there is a stable knowing that came with the
                                              death of illusion...... i can only say that the focus and awareness
                                              are no longer on the past or projecting into future what ifs......

                                              could i make some mistake on driving and take a wrong turn ? of
                                              course ....... do i know all relative knowledge ? No of course not
                                              ..... Do i gravitate to special powers ? No..... those things are
                                              no longer of any interest........ Could i forget an appointment or
                                              make a mistake within relative life ? of course.....

                                              but what i am speaking to and addressing is consciousness....
                                              i am not speaking to the relative life events...... but within the
                                              relative life events even those now take on a whole different hue
                                              .......


                                              ** > But you say someone like me cannot adequately see your
                                              motivations and actions because you are enlightened and I am
                                              not. What I see may not be accurate.

                                              G: can you read anyones mind ? if not then How can you tell
                                              what is my motivation or not ? most cannot imagine living
                                              without attempting to put into play a deliberate action or plan as
                                              an attempt to reach someone or establish something .....
                                              most cannot imagine what it is to live without chasing desires......
                                              therefore most look for hidden agendas or want to manufacture
                                              some defining box to make it all secure and comfortable........


                                              ** > It is a simple mistake to make. How can you expect me or
                                              anyone to accept that as a 'reason' if I have not accepted you as
                                              faultless. Now you say you are not claiming to be faultless.

                                              G: there is what moves in relativity and then there is
                                              consciousness ..... the consciousness may be quite settled
                                              and not attached to any of the relative happenings..... the
                                              physical form doesn't change to fit consciousness in some big
                                              external hoopla ..... one doesn't suddenly walk on air ..... or
                                              sprout wings ....... the form and the way the personality speaks
                                              may remain as it is ....... but the consciousness may have gone
                                              through a total change and cognition......


                                              *** > Perhaps that is not clear.

                                              G: perhaps not..... most judge upon external appearances
                                              and think that realization means that suddenly one becomes
                                              *other worldly* and that is just not true...... one becomes more
                                              fully human in one sense...... but also is no longer locked into
                                              the framework of impending death or seeing or holding a
                                              personal limited self image which is what most take to be the
                                              whole of identity.......


                                              ** > If I were speaking to a herd of cows, and one spoke back to
                                              me with skepticism and I answered, "You are a cow and cannot
                                              possibly understand', wouldn't I be admitting a mistake when I
                                              addressed the cows in the first place?

                                              > I hope you don't think I am picking on you. I am just pointing
                                              out a mistake I think you are making.

                                              G: mistakes are in the eye of the beholder.... of course you are
                                              going to judge based upon your experience..... if you have not
                                              tasted what i speak of then How can you accept it ? No one is
                                              saying you must...... i am simply saying that this is my Reality
                                              ..... that it IS possible ..... if i can go from the fearful and seeking
                                              questioner, to one that no longer questions and is secure in
                                              Self....... then it is simply saying that anyone can.........

                                              i am not nor ever have said that i am anything *special*.... or that
                                              what i say should be accepted as doctrine or dogma...... what i
                                              continue to attempt to relate is that the path takes time, effort ,
                                              dedication , surrender , and willingness to let go of all you have
                                              held in place ..... it takes time to ripen and when ready then the
                                              fruit falls........ in that moment it is Known and unknown in one
                                              instant........

                                              *** > I think this is a difficult thing to talk about and I hope you
                                              see it is just an intellectual effort and not a personal one.
                                              >
                                              > Love
                                              > Bobby G.


                                              G: i was a seeker and questioning sceptic also before and so
                                              understand totally...... when meeting my teacher i thought i knew
                                              it as well....... after all there was the intellectual knowing which
                                              in the end was found to be total illusion..... but as long as that
                                              position was held as knowing and questioning did not go to the
                                              depths where the roots were cut there was no possibility of
                                              transcending the shadows and bondages of my own creation.....

                                              i argued with my teacher ..... he slammed me hard.... and i am
                                              now forever grateful otherwise more than likely would still be
                                              attempting to collect and read and debate taking that to be the
                                              same as internal questioning and Heart Sadhana..... they are
                                              not one and the same...... it was only in plumbing the depths of
                                              my soul that the doors were unlocked and the illusion of death
                                              was walked through----- the mind died it's death rattle of
                                              chattering self ------ .....you ask does the persona make
                                              mistakes? ..... of course........ does the consciousness remain
                                              the same ? No that is why it is termed Cosmic Consciousness
                                              because the limited paradigm of minds constructs are blown
                                              apart and the vastness remains......

                                              Would one steal or become immoral being that it is all one ?
                                              absolutely not..... one comes into harmony in a more satvik
                                              way....... it is not coming out of any attempt to be a certain
                                              way...... it simply happens and unfolds .......

                                              here if looking for a self identity there is nothing that can be held
                                              any longer ..... this is where Self Enquiry came in...... if done
                                              rightly it dismantles all these constructs of boxes and they do not
                                              reform.......

                                              i can only attempt to approximate through language what is
                                              within a fluid conscious awareness........ i can only speak
                                              truthfully of what it is like and others will sit and judge where it is
                                              coming from ...... some will say it is transparency and others
                                              may say it is a con...... i can only say it is transparent attempts to
                                              share what remains.....



                                              shanti om
                                            • texasbg2000
                                              ... admit ... may ... was ... the ... where ... that know ... i ... maintain ....... i ... awareness ... not ... things are ... or ... the ... more ... are
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                                <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:



                                                >
                                                > > Hi G.
                                                > Hi and Namaste
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > *** > I have not heard you say you were wrong or lacking in any
                                                > way. This either means you were never wrong, or you were and
                                                > you just don't know it or know it and won't admit it.
                                                >
                                                > g: what is lacking ? i don't feel any lack ..... so how can i
                                                admit
                                                > lack when none is any longer felt..... ?
                                                >
                                                > there was my existing before realization and life now ...... it
                                                may
                                                > only be said they are as different as night and day..... before
                                                was
                                                > pain - seeking - searching - striving - doubt - questioning - all
                                                the
                                                > agonies that go with it ..... fears and trepidations .....
                                                where
                                                > now there is none..... that is the truth of it ...... those
                                                that know
                                                > me from before and now have wondered at what has
                                                > happened..... they can see and feel there has been such an
                                                > overwhelming change that cannot be explained .... one
                                                > comment from my daughters boyfriend upon my return was
                                                > "What happened? you really have it together now !!!! ... " those
                                                i
                                                > was in counseling with can not believe it as now i am one of the
                                                > most stable persons around whereas before i was depressed ,
                                                > fearful, anxious and searching every avenue to stop the ongoing
                                                > pain......
                                                >
                                                > are you asking if there are mistakes made or if i am perfect ?
                                                > there are no judgements concerning those things..... there are
                                                > no attempts to be a certain way....... nothing to
                                                maintain ....... i
                                                > only know that now there is a stable knowing that came with the
                                                > death of illusion...... i can only say that the focus and
                                                awareness
                                                > are no longer on the past or projecting into future what ifs......
                                                >
                                                > could i make some mistake on driving and take a wrong turn ? of
                                                > course ....... do i know all relative knowledge ? No of course
                                                not
                                                > ..... Do i gravitate to special powers ? No..... those
                                                things are
                                                > no longer of any interest........ Could i forget an appointment
                                                or
                                                > make a mistake within relative life ? of course.....
                                                >
                                                > but what i am speaking to and addressing is consciousness....
                                                > i am not speaking to the relative life events...... but within
                                                the
                                                > relative life events even those now take on a whole different hue
                                                > .......
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ** > But you say someone like me cannot adequately see your
                                                > motivations and actions because you are enlightened and I am
                                                > not. What I see may not be accurate.
                                                >
                                                > G: can you read anyones mind ? if not then How can you tell
                                                > what is my motivation or not ? most cannot imagine living
                                                > without attempting to put into play a deliberate action or plan as
                                                > an attempt to reach someone or establish something .....
                                                > most cannot imagine what it is to live without chasing desires......
                                                > therefore most look for hidden agendas or want to manufacture
                                                > some defining box to make it all secure and comfortable........
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ** > It is a simple mistake to make. How can you expect me or
                                                > anyone to accept that as a 'reason' if I have not accepted you as
                                                > faultless. Now you say you are not claiming to be faultless.
                                                >
                                                > G: there is what moves in relativity and then there is
                                                > consciousness ..... the consciousness may be quite settled
                                                > and not attached to any of the relative happenings..... the
                                                > physical form doesn't change to fit consciousness in some big
                                                > external hoopla ..... one doesn't suddenly walk on air ..... or
                                                > sprout wings ....... the form and the way the personality speaks
                                                > may remain as it is ....... but the consciousness may have gone
                                                > through a total change and cognition......
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > *** > Perhaps that is not clear.
                                                >
                                                > G: perhaps not..... most judge upon external appearances
                                                > and think that realization means that suddenly one becomes
                                                > *other worldly* and that is just not true...... one becomes
                                                more
                                                > fully human in one sense...... but also is no longer locked into
                                                > the framework of impending death or seeing or holding a
                                                > personal limited self image which is what most take to be the
                                                > whole of identity.......
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ** > If I were speaking to a herd of cows, and one spoke back to
                                                > me with skepticism and I answered, "You are a cow and cannot
                                                > possibly understand', wouldn't I be admitting a mistake when I
                                                > addressed the cows in the first place?
                                                >
                                                > > I hope you don't think I am picking on you. I am just pointing
                                                > out a mistake I think you are making.
                                                >
                                                > G: mistakes are in the eye of the beholder.... of course you
                                                are
                                                > going to judge based upon your experience..... if you have not
                                                > tasted what i speak of then How can you accept it ? No one is
                                                > saying you must...... i am simply saying that this is my Reality
                                                > ..... that it IS possible ..... if i can go from the fearful
                                                and seeking
                                                > questioner, to one that no longer questions and is secure in
                                                > Self....... then it is simply saying that anyone can.........
                                                >
                                                > i am not nor ever have said that i am anything *special*.... or
                                                that
                                                > what i say should be accepted as doctrine or dogma...... what i
                                                > continue to attempt to relate is that the path takes time, effort ,
                                                > dedication , surrender , and willingness to let go of all you have
                                                > held in place ..... it takes time to ripen and when ready then
                                                the
                                                > fruit falls........ in that moment it is Known and unknown in one
                                                > instant........
                                                >
                                                > *** > I think this is a difficult thing to talk about and I hope
                                                you
                                                > see it is just an intellectual effort and not a personal one.
                                                > >
                                                > > Love
                                                > > Bobby G.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > G: i was a seeker and questioning sceptic also before and so
                                                > understand totally...... when meeting my teacher i thought i knew
                                                > it as well....... after all there was the intellectual knowing
                                                which
                                                > in the end was found to be total illusion..... but as long as
                                                that
                                                > position was held as knowing and questioning did not go to the
                                                > depths where the roots were cut there was no possibility of
                                                > transcending the shadows and bondages of my own creation.....
                                                >
                                                > i argued with my teacher ..... he slammed me hard.... and i am
                                                > now forever grateful otherwise more than likely would still be
                                                > attempting to collect and read and debate taking that to be the
                                                > same as internal questioning and Heart Sadhana..... they are
                                                > not one and the same...... it was only in plumbing the depths of
                                                > my soul that the doors were unlocked and the illusion of death
                                                > was walked through----- the mind died it's death rattle of
                                                > chattering self ------ .....you ask does the persona make
                                                > mistakes? ..... of course........ does the consciousness remain
                                                > the same ? No that is why it is termed Cosmic Consciousness
                                                > because the limited paradigm of minds constructs are blown
                                                > apart and the vastness remains......
                                                >
                                                > Would one steal or become immoral being that it is all one ?
                                                > absolutely not..... one comes into harmony in a more satvik
                                                > way....... it is not coming out of any attempt to be a certain
                                                > way...... it simply happens and unfolds .......
                                                >
                                                > here if looking for a self identity there is nothing that can be
                                                held
                                                > any longer ..... this is where Self Enquiry came in...... if done
                                                > rightly it dismantles all these constructs of boxes and they do not
                                                > reform.......
                                                >
                                                > i can only attempt to approximate through language what is
                                                > within a fluid conscious awareness........ i can only speak
                                                > truthfully of what it is like and others will sit and judge where
                                                it is
                                                > coming from ...... some will say it is transparency and others
                                                > may say it is a con...... i can only say it is transparent
                                                attempts to
                                                > share what remains.....
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > shanti om

                                                If you had a biscuit and gave me half, that would be sharing.

                                                Love
                                                Bobby G.
                                              • cornelius
                                                ... dear g., G: simply the words and life of Christ is known to me much more minutely than the life and words of Rajneesh..... My term bias is the wrong
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jun 6, 2003
                                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                                  <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > <snip>

                                                  dear g.,

                                                  G: simply the words and life of Christ is known to me much
                                                  more minutely than the life and words of Rajneesh.....

                                                  My term 'bias' is the wrong word, but obviously your childhood in a
                                                  Christian household is showing. You know more about Jesus than a
                                                  Rajneesh because of that childhood and the church's (Catholic,
                                                  Lutheran, Episcopelian and lesser established 'Sanctified' missions)
                                                  2000 year old history of triumphantly 'packaging' the Jesus Image.

                                                  Though Jesus is still mankinds greatest "motivational speakers" is he
                                                  Really a good examply of how "to be Here NOw"?

                                                  HOw did he become a Healer (as you mentioned)? The "hows" of Jesus'
                                                  accomplishment and learning is so cloaked in Mystery and
                                                  "reverence" how can anyone really know whether Jesus did anything?
                                                  It is the Cloak Mystery, along with all the Absolutely
                                                  Indecipherable verbiage found in the Bible that I contest.
                                                  Of those who Proclaim his achievements, I infer a willingness either
                                                  perpetuate Myth or worst, to cloak themselves in the same mystery and
                                                  myth of Jesus.

                                                  For many, Jesus worship/invocation amounts to the practice of
                                                  Ceremonial Magic...
                                                  which is fine, to each his/her own....

                                                  I'm not impressed by Impassioned Displays of Jesus Worship and
                                                  invocations in the Public SQuare. They are so self-righteous and
                                                  antisocial.

                                                  Anyway, enough of my disdain of this Jesus talk, but what about the
                                                  diligence of discerning Myths from historical events?

                                                  For 2000 years Christians point to Jesus the Rebel and Not one word
                                                  about Rebels the World over, from time immemorial? Why is that?

                                                  Crazy HOrse was a Rebel. Gandhi was a Rebel (with a great
                                                  and "factual" sadhana). Rebels and healers existed throughout
                                                  the "Chinese" Dynasties. Akhenaten and Nefertiti were Rebels....
                                                  But somehow, Jesus is the most remarkable??????


                                                  i agree with some of Rajneesh's pointings but also think he
                                                  went way overboard and the path became unbalanced to the
                                                  other side of breaking the taboo's of sex and instead of breaking
                                                  through conditionings on many levels he succeeded in only
                                                  creating new ones .. .....

                                                  I would much rather discuss the failings of a contemporary than the
                                                  achievements of an undocumented personage.

                                                  While venting i'm ever thankful for your contributions......


                                                  met...
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