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Re: Art and the Challenge of Change

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  • freyjartist@aol.com
    Hi Bobby G, Nina bobby wrote:
    Message 1 of 7 , May 31, 2003
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      Hi Bobby G, Nina

      bobby wrote:
      <<I think the real question can be stated as a pro and con. The
      proposition:

      Structure limits Creativity.

      I say no, and take the con position. Take the dancer who learns the
      parameters of bodily motion. An immense structure of empirical
      knowledge. Then when the beat takes the body and the inner melody
      reacts, the soul is released to perform with additional elements not
      able to be accessed by the person who just gets up and becomes
      abandoned to the music. The satisfaction and expression is much
      greater.>>


      I think i see what you are saying, Bobby.

      Anyway, i will share my perspective.

      I was a student of calligraphy for many years,
      and
      the theme that was returned to
      again and again was:

      It takes first being disciplined and learning
      the rules of the art, and then you can
      have the freedom to bend them with abandon.
      First comes discipline, then comes freedom.

      Dance therapy and
      music therapy exists,  but
      this Stewart Cubley specializes in art therapy.
      So, i really don't understand what you were
      saying in your original response to the article
      when you mentioned those other things.

      Lucia Cappacchione and Aviva Gold (not as a team)
      are others who use un-techniqued art methods to
      facilitate the bypassing of the
      rational thought process in getting in touch with
      what lies in the well....the light and the shadow.

      I do think their methods are a good starting
      point for people who would like to create art,
      but who think they have no talent, etc., because
      of comparisons they themselves make,  or what
      they have been told by parents and teachers.
      I feel that there are strong parallels between
      creating tangible art from a place of freedom,
      and creating as the art of life.

      Learning the techniques can naturally come after the
      initial barriers have come down.

      Perhaps the biggest lesson to learn is that
      art isnt about painting pictures,  being a ballet star,
      or being a opera diva,

      Art is life itself and being all that you are.

      peace & blessings,

      Freyja



    • Nina
      ... This is a pretty good point that is coming out: what is the purpose of this creativity? Freyja, by way of Cubley, seems to be lofting up the possibility of
      Message 2 of 7 , May 31, 2003
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        > bobby wrote:
        > <<I think the real question can be
        > stated as a pro and con. The
        > proposition:
        >
        > Structure limits Creativity.
        >
        > I say no, and take the con position.
        > Take the dancer who learns the
        > parameters of bodily motion. An
        > immense structure of empirical
        > knowledge. Then when the beat
        > takes the body and the inner melody
        > reacts, the soul is released to
        > perform with additional elements not
        > able to be accessed by the person who
        > just gets up and becomes abandoned to
        > the music. The satisfaction and
        > expression is much greater.>>
        >
        >
        > I think i see what you are saying, Bobby.
        >
        > Anyway, i will share my perspective.
        >
        > I was a student of calligraphy for many years,
        > and the theme that was returned to
        > again and again was:
        >
        > It takes first being disciplined and learning
        > the rules of the art, and then you can
        > have the freedom to bend them with abandon.
        > First comes discipline, then comes freedom.
        >
        > Dance therapy and music therapy exists, but
        > this Stewart Cubley specializes in art therapy.
        > So, i really don't understand what you were
        > saying in your original response to the article
        > when you mentioned those other things.
        >
        > Lucia Cappacchione and Aviva Gold (not as a team)
        > are others who use un-techniqued art methods to
        > facilitate the bypassing of the rational thought
        > process in getting in touch with what lies
        > in the well....the light and the shadow.

        This is a pretty good point that is coming out:
        what is the purpose of this creativity?

        Freyja, by way of Cubley, seems to be lofting up the
        possibility of using untechniqued art (or other
        forms of expression) to explore one's inner world.

        Bobby, seems to be pointing out that art in another
        sense is a refinement of this exploration. Is he also
        suggesting that this exploration can go deeper if
        the art is refined?

        Could it be that the two play into each other in
        much the same way the inner and outer worlds play
        into each other?

        Stay tuned...

        > I do think their methods are a good starting
        > point for people who would like to create art,
        > but who think they have no talent, etc., because
        > of comparisons they themselves make, or what
        > they have been told by parents and teachers.
        > I feel that there are strong parallels between
        > creating tangible art from a place of freedom,
        > and creating as the art of life.
        >
        > Learning the techniques can naturally come after the
        > initial barriers have come down.
        >
        > Perhaps the biggest lesson to learn is that
        > art isnt about painting pictures, being a ballet star,
        > or being a opera diva,
        >
        > Art is life itself and being all that you are.

        Art happens. :)

        I suspect that the cave painters were involved in a form
        of active imagination that eventually led to the refinement
        of their art. Better art meant better hunts? Who knows! It's
        all lost in the mists of time...

        Nina
      • freyjartist
        ... Yes, Nina, i also think i am talking about it because it has always been my nature to create things with my hands, bringing my right smack dab in the
        Message 3 of 7 , May 31, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
          <murrkis@y...> wrote:
          > > bobby wrote:
          > > <<I think the real question can be
          > > stated as a pro and con. The
          > > proposition:
          > >
          > > Structure limits Creativity.
          > >
          > > I say no, and take the con position.
          > > Take the dancer who learns the
          > > parameters of bodily motion. An
          > > immense structure of empirical
          > > knowledge. Then when the beat
          > > takes the body and the inner melody
          > > reacts, the soul is released to
          > > perform with additional elements not
          > > able to be accessed by the person who
          > > just gets up and becomes abandoned to
          > > the music. The satisfaction and
          > > expression is much greater.>>
          > >
          > >
          > > I think i see what you are saying, Bobby.
          > >
          > > Anyway, i will share my perspective.
          > >
          > > I was a student of calligraphy for many years,
          > > and the theme that was returned to
          > > again and again was:
          > >
          > > It takes first being disciplined and learning
          > > the rules of the art, and then you can
          > > have the freedom to bend them with abandon.
          > > First comes discipline, then comes freedom.
          > >
          > > Dance therapy and music therapy exists, but
          > > this Stewart Cubley specializes in art therapy.
          > > So, i really don't understand what you were
          > > saying in your original response to the article
          > > when you mentioned those other things.
          > >
          > > Lucia Cappacchione and Aviva Gold (not as a team)
          > > are others who use un-techniqued art methods to
          > > facilitate the bypassing of the rational thought
          > > process in getting in touch with what lies
          > > in the well....the light and the shadow.
          >
          > This is a pretty good point that is coming out:
          > what is the purpose of this creativity?
          >
          > Freyja, by way of Cubley, seems to be lofting up the
          > possibility of using untechniqued art (or other
          > forms of expression) to explore one's inner world.
          >

          Yes, Nina, i also think i am talking about
          it because it has always been my nature to create
          things with my hands, bringing my right smack dab
          in the middle of the flow of life. Plus it is my dream
          to also offer workshops like this. Just because.
          Because i am moved to, that's all.

          There is a volunteer cancer healing center
          nearby, where a woman in my book club, an
          art teacher, who just recently died from
          lymphoma, was facilitating classes in this
          realm. I think her daughter may still be
          carrying it forward....and i feel that i
          will be meeting her very soon.

          > Bobby, seems to be pointing out that art in another
          > sense is a refinement of this exploration. Is he also
          > suggesting that this exploration can go deeper if
          > the art is refined?
          >
          > Could it be that the two play into each other in
          > much the same way the inner and outer worlds play
          > into each other?
          >
          > Stay tuned...
          >
          > > I do think their methods are a good starting
          > > point for people who would like to create art,
          > > but who think they have no talent, etc., because
          > > of comparisons they themselves make, or what
          > > they have been told by parents and teachers.
          > > I feel that there are strong parallels between
          > > creating tangible art from a place of freedom,
          > > and creating as the art of life.
          > >
          > > Learning the techniques can naturally come after the
          > > initial barriers have come down.
          > >
          > > Perhaps the biggest lesson to learn is that
          > > art isnt about painting pictures, being a ballet star,
          > > or being a opera diva,
          > >
          > > Art is life itself and being all that you are.
          >
          > Art happens. :)
          >

          Yes :)

          > I suspect that the cave painters were involved in a form
          > of active imagination that eventually led to the refinement
          > of their art. Better art meant better hunts? Who knows! It's
          > all lost in the mists of time...
          >
          > Nina

          And it isn't over til the fat lady sings...
          assuming that there is an ending
          and that a fat lady is going to sing...

          LOL

          Freyja
        • texasbg2000
          ... not ... Hi Freyja: A lot can be said for delving into oneself through creativity in expression with painting or any other medium. I just don t think it is
          Message 4 of 7 , May 31, 2003
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
            wrote:
            > Hi Bobby G, Nina
            >
            > bobby wrote:
            > <<I think the real question can be stated as a pro and con. The
            > proposition:
            >
            > Structure limits Creativity.
            >
            > I say no, and take the con position. Take the dancer who learns the
            > parameters of bodily motion. An immense structure of empirical
            > knowledge. Then when the beat takes the body and the inner melody
            > reacts, the soul is released to perform with additional elements
            not
            > able to be accessed by the person who just gets up and becomes
            > abandoned to the music. The satisfaction and expression is much
            > greater.>>
            >
            >
            > I think i see what you are saying, Bobby.
            >
            > Anyway, i will share my perspective.
            >
            > I was a student of calligraphy for many years,
            > and
            > the theme that was returned to
            > again and again was:
            >
            > It takes first being disciplined and learning
            > the rules of the art, and then you can
            > have the freedom to bend them with abandon.
            > First comes discipline, then comes freedom.
            >
            > Dance therapy and
            > music therapy exists, but
            > this Stewart Cubley specializes in art therapy.
            > So, i really don't understand what you were
            > saying in your original response to the article
            > when you mentioned those other things.

            Hi Freyja:

            A lot can be said for delving into oneself through
            creativity in expression with painting or any other medium.
            I just don't think it is done more effectively without structure.

            I mention the other art forms because it is clear that
            expression in those forms is better through the use of
            structure as a beginning.

            I am drawing a division between art training and art therapy.

            >
            > Lucia Cappacchione and Aviva Gold (not as a team)
            > are others who use un-techniqued art methods to
            > facilitate the bypassing of the
            > rational thought process in getting in touch with
            > what lies in the well....the light and the shadow.
            >
            > I do think their methods are a good starting
            > point for people who would like to create art,
            > but who think they have no talent, etc., because
            > of comparisons they themselves make, or what
            > they have been told by parents and teachers.
            > I feel that there are strong parallels between
            > creating tangible art from a place of freedom,
            > and creating as the art of life.
            >
            > Learning the techniques can naturally come after the
            > initial barriers have come down.
            >
            > Perhaps the biggest lesson to learn is that
            > art isnt about painting pictures, being a ballet star,
            > or being a opera diva,
            >
            > Art is life itself and being all that you are.


            Life is about life. Art is a word designated to use
            as an elevated expression above the ordinary. Better.

            The art of sweeping a floor is a way of saying it is being done
            more effectively than ordinary.

            >
            > peace & blessings,
            >
            > Freyja
          • freyjartist@aol.com
            Hi Bobby, you wrote: One interpretation
            Message 5 of 7 , May 31, 2003
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              Hi Bobby,

              <snip>

              you wrote:

              <<Life is about life. Art is a word designated to use
              as an elevated expression above the ordinary. Better.>>

              One interpretation out of many.
              I think 'art' is a word for "engaging in with full attention".

              The art of sweeping a floor is a way of saying it is being done
              more effectively than ordinary.>>


              HOW TO BE AN ARTIST     by SARK

              Stay loose. learn to watch snails.
              plant impossible gardens.   invite someone
              dangerous to tea.    make little signs that
              say Yes! and post them all over your house.
              make friends with freedom and uncertainty.
              look forward to dreams.    cry during movies.
              swing as high as you can on a swingset,
              by moonlight.      cultivate moods.    refuse to "be responsible".
              do it for love.     take lots of naps.    give money away.
              do it now.    the money will follow.   believe in magic.
              laugh a lot.     celebrate every gorgeous moment.
              take moonbaths.   have wild imaginings, transformative dreams
              and perfect calm.   draw on the walls.    read every day.
              imagine yourself magic.     giggle with children.
              listen to old people.    open up.    dive in.    befree.
              bless yourself.   drive away fear.    play with everything.
              entertain your inner child.    you are innocent.
              build a fort with blankets.   get wet.   hug trees.
              write love letters.

              love

              Freyja







            • texasbg2000
              ... Granted. How about art is being loved . Love Bobby G.
              Message 6 of 7 , May 31, 2003
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                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
                wrote:
                > Hi Bobby,
                >
                > <snip>
                >
                > you wrote:
                >
                > <<Life is about life. Art is a word designated to use
                > as an elevated expression above the ordinary. Better.>>
                >
                > One interpretation out of many.
                > I think 'art' is a word for "engaging in with full attention".

                Granted. How about 'art is being loved'.

                Love
                Bobby G.

                >
                >
                > HOW TO BE AN ARTIST     by SARK
                >
                > Stay loose. learn to watch snails.
                > plant impossible gardens.   invite someone
                > dangerous to tea.    make little signs that
                > say Yes! and post them all over your house.
                > make friends with freedom and uncertainty.
                > look forward to dreams.    cry during movies.
                > swing as high as you can on a swingset,
                > by moonlight.      cultivate moods.    refuse to "be responsible".
                > do it for love.     take lots of naps.    give money away.
                > do it now.    the money will follow.   believe in magic.
                > laugh a lot.     celebrate every gorgeous moment.
                > take moonbaths.   have wild imaginings, transformative dreams
                > and perfect calm.   draw on the walls.    read every day.
                > imagine yourself magic.     giggle with children.
                > listen to old people.    open up.    dive in.    befree.
                > bless yourself.   drive away fear.    play with everything.
                > entertain your inner child.    you are innocent.
                > build a fort with blankets.   get wet.   hug trees.
                > write love letters.
                >
                > love
                >
                > Freyja
              • texasbg2000
                ... I don t think so but someone may take it that way easily enough. I don t paint to explore myself. When I look at a picture that is done I generally learn
                Message 7 of 7 , May 31, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Nina"
                  <murrkis@y...> wrote:
                  > > bobby wrote:
                  > > <<I think the real question can be
                  > > stated as a pro and con. The
                  > > proposition:
                  > >
                  > > Structure limits Creativity.
                  > >
                  > > I say no, and take the con position.
                  > > Take the dancer who learns the
                  > > parameters of bodily motion. An
                  > > immense structure of empirical
                  > > knowledge. Then when the beat
                  > > takes the body and the inner melody
                  > > reacts, the soul is released to
                  > > perform with additional elements not
                  > > able to be accessed by the person who
                  > > just gets up and becomes abandoned to
                  > > the music. The satisfaction and
                  > > expression is much greater.>>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I think i see what you are saying, Bobby.
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, i will share my perspective.
                  > >
                  > > I was a student of calligraphy for many years,
                  > > and the theme that was returned to
                  > > again and again was:
                  > >
                  > > It takes first being disciplined and learning
                  > > the rules of the art, and then you can
                  > > have the freedom to bend them with abandon.
                  > > First comes discipline, then comes freedom.
                  > >
                  > > Dance therapy and music therapy exists, but
                  > > this Stewart Cubley specializes in art therapy.
                  > > So, i really don't understand what you were
                  > > saying in your original response to the article
                  > > when you mentioned those other things.
                  > >
                  > > Lucia Cappacchione and Aviva Gold (not as a team)
                  > > are others who use un-techniqued art methods to
                  > > facilitate the bypassing of the rational thought
                  > > process in getting in touch with what lies
                  > > in the well....the light and the shadow.
                  >
                  > This is a pretty good point that is coming out:
                  > what is the purpose of this creativity?
                  >
                  > Freyja, by way of Cubley, seems to be lofting up the
                  > possibility of using untechniqued art (or other
                  > forms of expression) to explore one's inner world.
                  >
                  > Bobby, seems to be pointing out that art in another
                  > sense is a refinement of this exploration. Is he also
                  > suggesting that this exploration can go deeper if
                  > the art is refined?

                  I don't think so but someone may take it that way easily enough. I
                  don't paint to explore myself. When I look at a picture that is done
                  I generally learn something about myself though. Everyone has a job
                  and mine is to make pictures and teach others how to do it the way I
                  do.

                  If ART were so small that one person's taste could encompass it then
                  it wouldn't be very human.

                  Love
                  Bobby G.

                  >
                  > Could it be that the two play into each other in
                  > much the same way the inner and outer worlds play
                  > into each other?
                  >
                  > Stay tuned...
                  >
                  > > I do think their methods are a good starting
                  > > point for people who would like to create art,
                  > > but who think they have no talent, etc., because
                  > > of comparisons they themselves make, or what
                  > > they have been told by parents and teachers.
                  > > I feel that there are strong parallels between
                  > > creating tangible art from a place of freedom,
                  > > and creating as the art of life.
                  > >
                  > > Learning the techniques can naturally come after the
                  > > initial barriers have come down.
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps the biggest lesson to learn is that
                  > > art isnt about painting pictures, being a ballet star,
                  > > or being a opera diva,
                  > >
                  > > Art is life itself and being all that you are.
                  >
                  > Art happens. :)
                  >
                  > I suspect that the cave painters were involved in a form
                  > of active imagination that eventually led to the refinement
                  > of their art. Better art meant better hunts? Who knows! It's
                  > all lost in the mists of time...
                  >
                  > Nina
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