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Re: The utility of spiritual experiences

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  • jodyrrr
    ... No. I m seeking to counteract those who flood these lists with occluding expectations about spiritual realization. ... Is that the same thing as swaying
    Message 1 of 5 , May 29, 2003
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@s...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr" <
      > jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
      > > While many, if not most of the vedantic sages warn
      > > against putting stock in meditation experiences,
      > > there are those for which they have some utility.
      > >
      > > People who have set themselves up as gurus might
      > > find some value in the experiences of their students.
      > > It gives them a reason to believe they are being
      > > effective, as well as their students a reason to stick
      > > with a "winning" team.
      >
      > Hi Jody -
      >
      > A few questions, s'il vous plait:
      >
      > Are you in competition with gurus?

      No. I'm seeking to counteract those who flood
      these lists with occluding expectations about
      spiritual realization.

      > When you pepper
      > you posts with snide inserts, are you attempting
      > to prejudice the reader?

      Is that the same thing as swaying opinion?
      If so, then yes.

      It's fun being funny! :)

      > Is it about proving that
      > gurus are unnecessary or that gurus are running a
      > con, and that is their primary if not exclusive
      > motive?

      It's about the con built into the structure
      of the superior vs. inferior relationship
      dynamic.

      > What is "only the static discharge of
      > transformational practice"? Is this along the lines
      > of we are only meat that thinks, and meat that
      > has a spiritual practice?

      It's more along the lines of "you don't wonder
      why your farts smell bad, you just know they do."

      Similarly, you don't need to be concerned with your
      meditation experiences, you just know you have them.

      > Are endorsements inherently
      > bad?

      It depends on who is endorsing who and why.

      > Why do you see the sharing of "spiritual"
      > experiences as vying for the guru's affection?

      I've sat in satsang and watched.

      > Are you possibly projecting your own stuff here?

      There's always that possibility with each of us.
      It's certainly true to a degree with me. I've been
      informed by a certain set of experiences which
      has led me to a particular course of action
      which results in what I say here.

      > Is it possible that the sharing of experiences
      > helps others to open up to the possibility of
      > their own experience of enlightenment, and that
      > this is why the guru asks for sharing?

      No. Sharing of experiences only perpetuates
      attachments to those experiences and the identities
      of the ones haveing them, imo.

      > How are you able to accurately assess that the
      > guru's purpose is to keep devotees coming back and
      > keeping attendance records?

      Firsthand observation at the satsangs of two gurus.

      > How do you know what
      > a person needs better than that person who shows
      > up for satsang?

      I don't. However, I do believe I know what they
      don't need.

      > Is it possible that the guru's
      > primary motivation, make that life's central purpose
      > and greatest satisfaction, is to share the joy
      > and freedom that his or her own enlightenment brought?

      One can only hope so. Unfortunately, I've observed a
      number who have other motivations.

      > Given that this group is about exploring meditation's
      > efficacy for preparing the ground for practical matters
      > such as stress reduction, and that meditation is the most
      > common milieu reported as precedent to enlightenment
      > in text and scripture over thousands of year, is it
      > possible that you are a prideful jnana yogi who longs
      > for full-blown enlightenment and guru status, and that
      > all your attempts at discrediting meditation and
      > gurus is sour grapes?

      The only thing I'm aware of longing for is a steady
      income. I'm not looking for any more enlightenment.
      It doesn't come in quanities anyway.

      I do have guru status with a few folk. That's enough.

      My sour grapes are the result of finding out firsthand
      that what I believed about realization was wrong.
      The expectations I had picked up that are inherent in
      spiritual culture were wrong. After I came to understanding,
      I looked around me and saw an ocean of occluding
      bullshit known as spiritual culture.

      Hence my views and their expression.

      > And finally, what are your
      > views on "transmission"?

      Complete and utter bullshit. It's the great white sugar pill
      of spirituality.

      > Namaste and love,
      >
      > Jeff

      Thanks for asking the tough questions Jeff.

      --jody.

      >
      >
      > > Nevermind the fact that these experiences are only
      > > the static discharge of a transformational practice.
      > > If you're selling (literally or figuratively) your wisdom
      > > as a viable route for spiritual exploration, what
      > > better endorsement could you hope for other than the
      > > grandiose expansions of your devotees' consciousness.
      > >
      > > I've seen how this works firsthand when I was spending
      > > time with a transmission guru. He basically encouraged
      > > any and all "spiritual" experiences by allowing people
      > > to share them with the rest of the satsang. It set up a
      > > kind of competitive atmosphere with devotees vying
      > > for the guru's affection by presenting the most grand
      > > experience. The guru did whatever he could to
      > > encourage the generation and expression of these
      > > experiences during his satsang, because he knew it
      > > was these very types of experiences that keep the
      > > devotees coming back. Dave Oshana is another of
      > > this type of guru. It's been a proven method of getting
      > > and maintaining a satsang. Give the customer what
      > > they want, even when it's something they may not need.
      > >
      > > What they're getting is another facet of persona to identify
      > > with, that of being an adept and successful meditator.
      > > That's what many gurus are actually selling (or giving
      > > away), just more delusion and suffering in the form
      > > of further attachment, all just to keep the attendance
      > > lists full.
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