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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: The utility of spiritual experiences

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  • Bruce Morgen
    On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:50:18 -0000 freyjartist ... [snip] ... Well, in the field of no concepts, there s nothing to write about --
    Message 1 of 5 , May 29, 2003
      On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:50:18 -0000 "freyjartist" <freyjartist@...>
      writes:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
      > <jeff@s...> wrote:
      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr" <
      > > jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
      [snip]
      >
      > I'm with Rodney. "Can't we all just get along?"
      >
      > That doesn't mean there can be no disagreements.
      >
      > It just means getting out beyond ideas
      > of pro-guru and anti-guru, and all other ideas
      > that create separation, into the field
      > of no concepts.
      >
      Well, in "the field of no
      concepts," there's nothing
      to write about -- language
      is by nature conceptual,
      at it's very best it can
      serve to point beyond
      concepts. At *their* very
      best, both J-jis manage to
      do that, but often their
      pointings are buried in
      what amount to social
      concerns about each
      other's favored m.o. --
      even to the point of
      publicly doubting each
      other's authenticity.

      When all is said and done,
      Freyja, peace cannot be
      declared and/or mandated
      -- it flows like an
      endless river and is
      either seen as such or not
      in any given moment. So,
      the answer to Rodney's
      question is "yes," but
      it's one of possibility
      and therefore entirely
      conceptual!

      __________________________________________________
      http://come.to/realization
      http://www.atman.net/realization
      http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
      http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm


      [snip]

      ________________________________________________________________
      The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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    • jodyrrr
      ... Actually Bruceji. I have no problems with either G s or Jeff s authenticity. It s the methods I have problems with, as well as my noticing of some
      Message 2 of 5 , May 29, 2003
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@j...>
        wrote:
        >
        > On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:50:18 -0000 "freyjartist" <freyjartist@a...>
        > writes:
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
        > > <jeff@s...> wrote:
        > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr" <
        > > > jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
        > [snip]
        > >
        > > I'm with Rodney. "Can't we all just get along?"
        > >
        > > That doesn't mean there can be no disagreements.
        > >
        > > It just means getting out beyond ideas
        > > of pro-guru and anti-guru, and all other ideas
        > > that create separation, into the field
        > > of no concepts.
        > >
        > Well, in "the field of no
        > concepts," there's nothing
        > to write about -- language
        > is by nature conceptual,
        > at it's very best it can
        > serve to point beyond
        > concepts. At *their* very
        > best, both J-jis manage to
        > do that, but often their
        > pointings are buried in
        > what amount to social
        > concerns about each
        > other's favored m.o. --
        > even to the point of
        > publicly doubting each
        > other's authenticity.

        Actually Bruceji. I have no problems with either
        G's or Jeff's authenticity. It's the methods I have
        problems with, as well as my noticing of some
        unobserved ego.

        I also have some difficulty understanding why they would
        care what I thought of them at all. Oh wait! Could it be
        that unobserved ego reacting? ;)

        > When all is said and done,
        > Freyja, peace cannot be
        > declared and/or mandated
        > -- it flows like an
        > endless river and is
        > either seen as such or not
        > in any given moment. So,
        > the answer to Rodney's
        > question is "yes," but
        > it's one of possibility
        > and therefore entirely
        > conceptual!
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > http://come.to/realization
        > http://www.atman.net/realization
        > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
        > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
        >
        >
        > [snip]
        >
        > ________________________________________________________________
        > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
        > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
        > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
      • freyjartist
        ... Yes, seems so. ... Of course. I agree Bruce. There is no beginning and no end to any of it. I keep traveling around the bend There was no beginning,
        Message 3 of 5 , May 29, 2003
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
          <editor@j...> wrote:
          >
          > On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:50:18 -0000 "freyjartist" <freyjartist@a...>
          > writes:
          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
          > > <jeff@s...> wrote:
          > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr" <
          > > > jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > [snip]
          > >
          > > I'm with Rodney. "Can't we all just get along?"
          > >
          > > That doesn't mean there can be no disagreements.
          > >
          > > It just means getting out beyond ideas
          > > of pro-guru and anti-guru, and all other ideas
          > > that create separation, into the field
          > > of no concepts.
          > >
          > Well, in "the field of no
          > concepts," there's nothing
          > to write about -- language
          > is by nature conceptual,
          > at it's very best it can
          > serve to point beyond
          > concepts. At *their* very
          > best, both J-jis manage to
          > do that, but often their
          > pointings are buried in
          > what amount to social
          > concerns about each
          > other's favored m.o. --
          > even to the point of
          > publicly doubting each
          > other's authenticity.
          >

          Yes, seems so.

          > When all is said and done,
          > Freyja, peace cannot be
          > declared and/or mandated
          > -- it flows like an
          > endless river and is
          > either seen as such or not
          > in any given moment. So,
          > the answer to Rodney's
          > question is "yes," but
          > it's one of possibility
          > and therefore entirely
          > conceptual!
          >

          Of course. I agree Bruce.
          There is no beginning
          and no end to any of it.

          "I keep traveling around the bend
          There was no beginning, there is no end
          It wasn't born and never dies
          There are no edges, there is no sides
          Oh yeah, you just don't win
          It's so far out, the way out is in
          Bow to God and call him Sir,
          but if you don't know where you're
          going
          Any road will take you there."

          ~George Harrison
          "Any Road" from the CD "Brainwashed"
          >


          Freyja
          __________________________________________________
          > http://come.to/realization
          > http://www.atman.net/realization
          > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
          > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
          >
          >
          > [snip]
          >
          > ________________________________________________________________
          > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
          > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
          > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
        • Bruce Morgen
          ... I don t know that I have a particular problem with the traditional m.o. so much as an obligation to occasionally remind folks of the inherent pitfalls of
          Message 4 of 5 , May 29, 2003
            On Thu, 29 May 2003 17:00:57 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@...> writes:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen
            > <editor@j...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:50:18 -0000 "freyjartist"
            > <freyjartist@a...>
            > > writes:
            > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            >
            > > > <jeff@s...> wrote:
            > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
            > <
            > > > > jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > > [snip]
            > > >
            > > > I'm with Rodney. "Can't we all just get along?"
            > > >
            > > > That doesn't mean there can be no disagreements.
            > > >
            > > > It just means getting out beyond ideas
            > > > of pro-guru and anti-guru, and all other ideas
            > > > that create separation, into the field
            > > > of no concepts.
            > > >
            > > Well, in "the field of no
            > > concepts," there's nothing
            > > to write about -- language
            > > is by nature conceptual,
            > > at it's very best it can
            > > serve to point beyond
            > > concepts. At *their* very
            > > best, both J-jis manage to
            > > do that, but often their
            > > pointings are buried in
            > > what amount to social
            > > concerns about each
            > > other's favored m.o. --
            > > even to the point of
            > > publicly doubting each
            > > other's authenticity.
            >
            > Actually Bruceji. I have no problems with either
            > G's or Jeff's authenticity. It's the methods I have
            > problems with,

            I don't know that I have
            a particular problem with
            the traditional m.o. so
            much as an obligation to
            occasionally remind folks
            of the inherent pitfalls
            of the traditional guru-
            chela dyad, which I agree
            are quite prevalent in
            what you call "spiritual
            culture. Of course
            Jeffji has similar
            concerns about pitfalls
            in the more anarchistic
            m.o. some of us favor --
            and the wheel keeps
            spinning! :-)

            > as well as my noticing of some
            > unobserved ego.

            Yes, I see that too --
            although I find it hard to
            be quite so sure that it's
            really "unobserved" so much
            as briefly observed and
            then dismissed for what are
            seen as valid practical
            reasons.
            >
            > I also have some difficulty understanding why they would > care what I
            thought of them at all. Oh wait! Could it
            > be that unobserved ego reacting? ;)

            Yes, it *could* be, but it
            also might be out of honest
            concern that some folks for
            whom the more traditional
            approach is appropriate
            might turn away from (what
            is for them) rightful work,
            even if all such work is
            inherently non-causal with
            respect to realization and
            often loaded down with
            superfluous significance.
            >
            > > When all is said and done,
            > > Freyja, peace cannot be
            > > declared and/or mandated
            > > -- it flows like an
            > > endless river and is
            > > either seen as such or not
            > > in any given moment. So,
            > > the answer to Rodney's
            > > question is "yes," but
            > > it's one of possibility
            > > and therefore entirely
            > > conceptual!
            > >
            > >
            > > [snip]
            > >
            > >
            __________________________________________________
            http://come.to/realization
            http://www.atman.net/realization
            http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
            http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

            ________________________________________________________________
            The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
            Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
            Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
          • jodyrrr
            ... [snip] ... It s how the tradition is applied that presents problems to me, not the tradition itself. ... Good point. We can t take our gurus with their
            Message 5 of 5 , May 29, 2003
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Morgen <editor@j...>
              wrote:
              >
              > On Thu, 29 May 2003 17:00:57 -0000 "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@y...> writes:

              [snip]

              > > Actually Bruceji. I have no problems with either
              > > G's or Jeff's authenticity. It's the methods I have
              > > problems with,
              >
              > I don't know that I have
              > a particular problem with
              > the traditional m.o. so
              > much as an obligation to
              > occasionally remind folks
              > of the inherent pitfalls
              > of the traditional guru-
              > chela dyad, which I agree
              > are quite prevalent in
              > what you call "spiritual
              > culture. Of course
              > Jeffji has similar
              > concerns about pitfalls
              > in the more anarchistic
              > m.o. some of us favor --
              > and the wheel keeps
              > spinning! :-)

              It's how the tradition is applied that
              presents problems to me, not the
              tradition itself.

              > > as well as my noticing of some
              > > unobserved ego.
              >
              > Yes, I see that too --
              > although I find it hard to
              > be quite so sure that it's
              > really "unobserved" so much
              > as briefly observed and
              > then dismissed for what are
              > seen as valid practical
              > reasons.

              Good point. We can't take our gurus
              with their egos too, can we.

              > > I also have some difficulty understanding why they would > care what I
              > thought of them at all. Oh wait! Could it
              > > be that unobserved ego reacting? ;)
              >
              > Yes, it *could* be, but it
              > also might be out of honest
              > concern that some folks for
              > whom the more traditional
              > approach is appropriate
              > might turn away from (what
              > is for them) rightful work,
              > even if all such work is
              > inherently non-causal with
              > respect to realization and
              > often loaded down with
              > superfluous significance.

              Again, good point. By putting both
              views within view, the reader can
              decide for themselves which is the
              best approach for them.

              > > > When all is said and done,
              > > > Freyja, peace cannot be
              > > > declared and/or mandated
              > > > -- it flows like an
              > > > endless river and is
              > > > either seen as such or not
              > > > in any given moment. So,
              > > > the answer to Rodney's
              > > > question is "yes," but
              > > > it's one of possibility
              > > > and therefore entirely
              > > > conceptual!
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [snip]
              > > >
              > > >
              > __________________________________________________
              > http://come.to/realization
              > http://www.atman.net/realization
              > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
              > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
              >
              > ________________________________________________________________
              > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
              > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
              > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
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