Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

The utility of spiritual experiences

Expand Messages
  • jodyrrr
    While many, if not most of the vedantic sages warn against putting stock in meditation experiences, there are those for which they have some utility. People
    Message 1 of 5 , May 28, 2003
      While many, if not most of the vedantic sages warn
      against putting stock in meditation experiences,
      there are those for which they have some utility.

      People who have set themselves up as gurus might
      find some value in the experiences of their students.
      It gives them a reason to believe they are being
      effective, as well as their students a reason to stick
      with a "winning" team.

      Nevermind the fact that these experiences are only
      the static discharge of a transformational practice.
      If you're selling (literally or figuratively) your wisdom
      as a viable route for spiritual exploration, what
      better endorsement could you hope for other than the
      grandiose expansions of your devotees' consciousness.

      I've seen how this works firsthand when I was spending
      time with a transmission guru. He basically encouraged
      any and all "spiritual" experiences by allowing people
      to share them with the rest of the satsang. It set up a
      kind of competitive atmosphere with devotees vying
      for the guru's affection by presenting the most grand
      experience. The guru did whatever he could to
      encourage the generation and expression of these
      experiences during his satsang, because he knew it
      was these very types of experiences that keep the
      devotees coming back. Dave Oshana is another of
      this type of guru. It's been a proven method of getting
      and maintaining a satsang. Give the customer what
      they want, even when it's something they may not need.

      What they're getting is another facet of persona to identify
      with, that of being an adept and successful meditator.
      That's what many gurus are actually selling (or giving
      away), just more delusion and suffering in the form
      of further attachment, all just to keep the attendance
      lists full.
    • mlcanow
      ... Yes, what a pitty. Beautiful post, thanks, ml
      Message 2 of 5 , May 28, 2003
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
        <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
        > While many, if not most of the vedantic sages warn
        > against putting stock in meditation experiences,
        > there are those for which they have some utility.
        >
        > People who have set themselves up as gurus might
        > find some value in the experiences of their students.
        > It gives them a reason to believe they are being
        > effective, as well as their students a reason to stick
        > with a "winning" team.
        >
        > Nevermind the fact that these experiences are only
        > the static discharge of a transformational practice.
        > If you're selling (literally or figuratively) your wisdom
        > as a viable route for spiritual exploration, what
        > better endorsement could you hope for other than the
        > grandiose expansions of your devotees' consciousness.
        >
        > I've seen how this works firsthand when I was spending
        > time with a transmission guru. He basically encouraged
        > any and all "spiritual" experiences by allowing people
        > to share them with the rest of the satsang. It set up a
        > kind of competitive atmosphere with devotees vying
        > for the guru's affection by presenting the most grand
        > experience. The guru did whatever he could to
        > encourage the generation and expression of these
        > experiences during his satsang, because he knew it
        > was these very types of experiences that keep the
        > devotees coming back. Dave Oshana is another of
        > this type of guru. It's been a proven method of getting
        > and maintaining a satsang. Give the customer what
        > they want, even when it's something they may not need.
        >
        > What they're getting is another facet of persona to identify
        > with, that of being an adept and successful meditator.
        > That's what many gurus are actually selling (or giving
        > away), just more delusion and suffering in the form
        > of further attachment, all just to keep the attendance
        > lists full.

        Yes, what a pitty.
        Beautiful post, thanks,
        ml
      • Jeff Belyea
        ... Hi Jody - A few questions, s il vous plait: Are you in competition with gurus? When you pepper you posts with snide inserts, are you attempting to
        Message 3 of 5 , May 29, 2003
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr" <
          jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > While many, if not most of the vedantic sages warn
          > against putting stock in meditation experiences,
          > there are those for which they have some utility.
          >
          > People who have set themselves up as gurus might
          > find some value in the experiences of their students.
          > It gives them a reason to believe they are being
          > effective, as well as their students a reason to stick
          > with a "winning" team.

          Hi Jody -

          A few questions, s'il vous plait:

          Are you in competition with gurus? When you pepper
          you posts with snide inserts, are you attempting
          to prejudice the reader? Is it about proving that
          gurus are unnecessary or that gurus are running a
          con, and that is their primary if not exclusive
          motive? What is "only the static discharge of
          transformational practice"? Is this along the lines
          of we are only meat that thinks, and meat that
          has a spiritual practice? Are endorsements inherently
          bad? Why do you see the sharing of "spiritual"
          experiences as vying for the guru's affection?
          Are you possibly projecting your own stuff here?
          Is it possible that the sharing of experiences
          helps others to open up to the possibility of
          their own experience of enlightenment, and that
          this is why the guru asks for sharing?
          How are you able to accurately assess that the
          guru's purpose is to keep devotees coming back and
          keeping attendance records? How do you know what
          a person needs better than that person who shows
          up for satsang? Is it possible that the guru's
          primary motivation, make that life's central purpose
          and greatest satisfaction, is to share the joy
          and freedom that his or her own enlightenment brought?
          Given that this group is about exploring meditation's
          efficacy for preparing the ground for practical matters
          such as stress reduction, and that meditation is the most
          common milieu reported as precedent to enlightenment
          in text and scripture over thousands of year, is it
          possible that you are a prideful jnana yogi who longs
          for full-blown enlightenment and guru status, and that
          all your attempts at discrediting meditation and
          gurus is sour grapes? And finally, what are your
          views on "transmission"?

          Namaste and love,

          Jeff


          > Nevermind the fact that these experiences are only
          > the static discharge of a transformational practice.
          > If you're selling (literally or figuratively) your wisdom
          > as a viable route for spiritual exploration, what
          > better endorsement could you hope for other than the
          > grandiose expansions of your devotees' consciousness.
          >
          > I've seen how this works firsthand when I was spending
          > time with a transmission guru. He basically encouraged
          > any and all "spiritual" experiences by allowing people
          > to share them with the rest of the satsang. It set up a
          > kind of competitive atmosphere with devotees vying
          > for the guru's affection by presenting the most grand
          > experience. The guru did whatever he could to
          > encourage the generation and expression of these
          > experiences during his satsang, because he knew it
          > was these very types of experiences that keep the
          > devotees coming back. Dave Oshana is another of
          > this type of guru. It's been a proven method of getting
          > and maintaining a satsang. Give the customer what
          > they want, even when it's something they may not need.
          >
          > What they're getting is another facet of persona to identify
          > with, that of being an adept and successful meditator.
          > That's what many gurus are actually selling (or giving
          > away), just more delusion and suffering in the form
          > of further attachment, all just to keep the attendance
          > lists full.
        • freyjartist
          ... I m with Rodney. Can t we all just get along? That doesn t mean there can be no disagreements. It just means getting out beyond ideas of pro-guru and
          Message 4 of 5 , May 29, 2003
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea"
            <jeff@s...> wrote:
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr" <
            > jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > > While many, if not most of the vedantic sages warn
            > > against putting stock in meditation experiences,
            > > there are those for which they have some utility.
            > >
            > > People who have set themselves up as gurus might
            > > find some value in the experiences of their students.
            > > It gives them a reason to believe they are being
            > > effective, as well as their students a reason to stick
            > > with a "winning" team.
            >
            > Hi Jody -
            >
            > A few questions, s'il vous plait:
            >
            > Are you in competition with gurus? When you pepper
            > you posts with snide inserts, are you attempting
            > to prejudice the reader? Is it about proving that
            > gurus are unnecessary or that gurus are running a
            > con, and that is their primary if not exclusive
            > motive? What is "only the static discharge of
            > transformational practice"? Is this along the lines
            > of we are only meat that thinks, and meat that
            > has a spiritual practice? Are endorsements inherently
            > bad? Why do you see the sharing of "spiritual"
            > experiences as vying for the guru's affection?
            > Are you possibly projecting your own stuff here?
            > Is it possible that the sharing of experiences
            > helps others to open up to the possibility of
            > their own experience of enlightenment, and that
            > this is why the guru asks for sharing?
            > How are you able to accurately assess that the
            > guru's purpose is to keep devotees coming back and
            > keeping attendance records? How do you know what
            > a person needs better than that person who shows
            > up for satsang? Is it possible that the guru's
            > primary motivation, make that life's central purpose
            > and greatest satisfaction, is to share the joy
            > and freedom that his or her own enlightenment brought?
            > Given that this group is about exploring meditation's
            > efficacy for preparing the ground for practical matters
            > such as stress reduction, and that meditation is the most
            > common milieu reported as precedent to enlightenment
            > in text and scripture over thousands of year, is it
            > possible that you are a prideful jnana yogi who longs
            > for full-blown enlightenment and guru status, and that
            > all your attempts at discrediting meditation and
            > gurus is sour grapes? And finally, what are your
            > views on "transmission"?
            >
            > Namaste and love,
            >
            > Jeff
            >


            I'm with Rodney. "Can't we all just get along?"

            That doesn't mean there can be no disagreements.

            It just means getting out beyond ideas
            of pro-guru and anti-guru, and all other ideas
            that create separation, into the field
            of no concepts.

            Freyja


            >
            > > Nevermind the fact that these experiences are only
            > > the static discharge of a transformational practice.
            > > If you're selling (literally or figuratively) your wisdom
            > > as a viable route for spiritual exploration, what
            > > better endorsement could you hope for other than the
            > > grandiose expansions of your devotees' consciousness.
            > >
            > > I've seen how this works firsthand when I was spending
            > > time with a transmission guru. He basically encouraged
            > > any and all "spiritual" experiences by allowing people
            > > to share them with the rest of the satsang. It set up a
            > > kind of competitive atmosphere with devotees vying
            > > for the guru's affection by presenting the most grand
            > > experience. The guru did whatever he could to
            > > encourage the generation and expression of these
            > > experiences during his satsang, because he knew it
            > > was these very types of experiences that keep the
            > > devotees coming back. Dave Oshana is another of
            > > this type of guru. It's been a proven method of getting
            > > and maintaining a satsang. Give the customer what
            > > they want, even when it's something they may not need.
            > >
            > > What they're getting is another facet of persona to identify
            > > with, that of being an adept and successful meditator.
            > > That's what many gurus are actually selling (or giving
            > > away), just more delusion and suffering in the form
            > > of further attachment, all just to keep the attendance
            > > lists full.
          • jodyrrr
            ... No. I m seeking to counteract those who flood these lists with occluding expectations about spiritual realization. ... Is that the same thing as swaying
            Message 5 of 5 , May 29, 2003
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@s...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr" <
              > jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > > While many, if not most of the vedantic sages warn
              > > against putting stock in meditation experiences,
              > > there are those for which they have some utility.
              > >
              > > People who have set themselves up as gurus might
              > > find some value in the experiences of their students.
              > > It gives them a reason to believe they are being
              > > effective, as well as their students a reason to stick
              > > with a "winning" team.
              >
              > Hi Jody -
              >
              > A few questions, s'il vous plait:
              >
              > Are you in competition with gurus?

              No. I'm seeking to counteract those who flood
              these lists with occluding expectations about
              spiritual realization.

              > When you pepper
              > you posts with snide inserts, are you attempting
              > to prejudice the reader?

              Is that the same thing as swaying opinion?
              If so, then yes.

              It's fun being funny! :)

              > Is it about proving that
              > gurus are unnecessary or that gurus are running a
              > con, and that is their primary if not exclusive
              > motive?

              It's about the con built into the structure
              of the superior vs. inferior relationship
              dynamic.

              > What is "only the static discharge of
              > transformational practice"? Is this along the lines
              > of we are only meat that thinks, and meat that
              > has a spiritual practice?

              It's more along the lines of "you don't wonder
              why your farts smell bad, you just know they do."

              Similarly, you don't need to be concerned with your
              meditation experiences, you just know you have them.

              > Are endorsements inherently
              > bad?

              It depends on who is endorsing who and why.

              > Why do you see the sharing of "spiritual"
              > experiences as vying for the guru's affection?

              I've sat in satsang and watched.

              > Are you possibly projecting your own stuff here?

              There's always that possibility with each of us.
              It's certainly true to a degree with me. I've been
              informed by a certain set of experiences which
              has led me to a particular course of action
              which results in what I say here.

              > Is it possible that the sharing of experiences
              > helps others to open up to the possibility of
              > their own experience of enlightenment, and that
              > this is why the guru asks for sharing?

              No. Sharing of experiences only perpetuates
              attachments to those experiences and the identities
              of the ones haveing them, imo.

              > How are you able to accurately assess that the
              > guru's purpose is to keep devotees coming back and
              > keeping attendance records?

              Firsthand observation at the satsangs of two gurus.

              > How do you know what
              > a person needs better than that person who shows
              > up for satsang?

              I don't. However, I do believe I know what they
              don't need.

              > Is it possible that the guru's
              > primary motivation, make that life's central purpose
              > and greatest satisfaction, is to share the joy
              > and freedom that his or her own enlightenment brought?

              One can only hope so. Unfortunately, I've observed a
              number who have other motivations.

              > Given that this group is about exploring meditation's
              > efficacy for preparing the ground for practical matters
              > such as stress reduction, and that meditation is the most
              > common milieu reported as precedent to enlightenment
              > in text and scripture over thousands of year, is it
              > possible that you are a prideful jnana yogi who longs
              > for full-blown enlightenment and guru status, and that
              > all your attempts at discrediting meditation and
              > gurus is sour grapes?

              The only thing I'm aware of longing for is a steady
              income. I'm not looking for any more enlightenment.
              It doesn't come in quanities anyway.

              I do have guru status with a few folk. That's enough.

              My sour grapes are the result of finding out firsthand
              that what I believed about realization was wrong.
              The expectations I had picked up that are inherent in
              spiritual culture were wrong. After I came to understanding,
              I looked around me and saw an ocean of occluding
              bullshit known as spiritual culture.

              Hence my views and their expression.

              > And finally, what are your
              > views on "transmission"?

              Complete and utter bullshit. It's the great white sugar pill
              of spirituality.

              > Namaste and love,
              >
              > Jeff

              Thanks for asking the tough questions Jeff.

              --jody.

              >
              >
              > > Nevermind the fact that these experiences are only
              > > the static discharge of a transformational practice.
              > > If you're selling (literally or figuratively) your wisdom
              > > as a viable route for spiritual exploration, what
              > > better endorsement could you hope for other than the
              > > grandiose expansions of your devotees' consciousness.
              > >
              > > I've seen how this works firsthand when I was spending
              > > time with a transmission guru. He basically encouraged
              > > any and all "spiritual" experiences by allowing people
              > > to share them with the rest of the satsang. It set up a
              > > kind of competitive atmosphere with devotees vying
              > > for the guru's affection by presenting the most grand
              > > experience. The guru did whatever he could to
              > > encourage the generation and expression of these
              > > experiences during his satsang, because he knew it
              > > was these very types of experiences that keep the
              > > devotees coming back. Dave Oshana is another of
              > > this type of guru. It's been a proven method of getting
              > > and maintaining a satsang. Give the customer what
              > > they want, even when it's something they may not need.
              > >
              > > What they're getting is another facet of persona to identify
              > > with, that of being an adept and successful meditator.
              > > That's what many gurus are actually selling (or giving
              > > away), just more delusion and suffering in the form
              > > of further attachment, all just to keep the attendance
              > > lists full.
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.
            »
            «