Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

The paucity of spiritual "experiences"

Expand Messages
  • jodyrrr
    People collect their spiritual experiences like merit badges, to show them off at their meetings with other badge collectors. These experiences are normally
    Message 1 of 30 , May 26, 2003
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      People collect their spiritual "experiences" like merit
      badges, to show them off at their meetings with other
      badge collectors. These experiences are normally
      deemed to be in the category "spiritual" by the one
      who had the experience. It is in the best interests
      of the spiritual ambitionist to have as many of these
      experiences as possible, and the more grandiose,
      the better. It gives one pause to wonder: just what
      is a spiritual experience and what is it worth in
      one's life.

      It is common for some people to go out of body, or
      have feelings of expansion or universality in the
      context of their meditation practices and lives.
      More often than not these get labeled as kundalini
      emergence, and this gives those who have them
      permission to call them spiritual and pin them on
      their sleeve.

      But almost any advaitic sage, including Ramana and
      Vivekananda, would advise the sadhaka to *ignore*
      these experiences if and when they occur. They
      would also offer that such experiences are only that
      much more Maya, and despite the seemingly cosmic
      proportions of what is experienced, each and every
      one of these occurrences is no better than a common
      daydream.

      This isn't to say that there isn't valuable information
      to be gleaned from such experiences, nor to say that
      these experiences are not indicative of the continuing
      process of personal transformation. But to form an
      attachment to these experiences as indications of
      one's own spiritual mastery is the worst form of
      spiritual materialism. This serves to create the graven
      image of the adept, sealing one's own understanding in
      a suitcase of conceit decorated with the pictures one
      collects while on vacation in a spiritual Disney land.
    • mlcanow
      ... Definitely, Jody, the advice of the sages is always to enquire into who is the one having the experiences. The is not the experience, it is the
      Message 2 of 30 , May 26, 2003
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
        <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
        > People collect their spiritual "experiences" like merit
        > badges, to show them off at their meetings with other
        > badge collectors. These experiences are normally
        > deemed to be in the category "spiritual" by the one
        > who had the experience. It is in the best interests
        > of the spiritual ambitionist to have as many of these
        > experiences as possible, and the more grandiose,
        > the better. It gives one pause to wonder: just what
        > is a spiritual experience and what is it worth in
        > one's life.
        >
        > It is common for some people to go out of body, or
        > have feelings of expansion or universality in the
        > context of their meditation practices and lives.
        > More often than not these get labeled as kundalini
        > emergence, and this gives those who have them
        > permission to call them spiritual and pin them on
        > their sleeve.
        >
        > But almost any advaitic sage, including Ramana and
        > Vivekananda, would advise the sadhaka to *ignore*
        > these experiences if and when they occur. They
        > would also offer that such experiences are only that
        > much more Maya, and despite the seemingly cosmic
        > proportions of what is experienced, each and every
        > one of these occurrences is no better than a common
        > daydream.
        >
        > This isn't to say that there isn't valuable information
        > to be gleaned from such experiences, nor to say that
        > these experiences are not indicative of the continuing
        > process of personal transformation. But to form an
        > attachment to these experiences as indications of
        > one's own spiritual mastery is the worst form of
        > spiritual materialism. This serves to create the graven
        > image of the adept, sealing one's own understanding in
        > a suitcase of conceit decorated with the pictures one
        > collects while on vacation in a spiritual Disney land.

        Definitely, Jody, the advice of the sages is always to enquire into
        who is the one having the experiences. The <problem> is not the
        experience, it is the who.
      • dan330033
        ... An on-target post, Jody. I d even say that the information gleaned from any experience is irrelevant, except insofar as one expects to be able to apply
        Message 3 of 30 , May 27, 2003
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
          > People collect their spiritual "experiences" like merit
          > badges, to show them off at their meetings with other
          > badge collectors. These experiences are normally
          > deemed to be in the category "spiritual" by the one
          > who had the experience. It is in the best interests
          > of the spiritual ambitionist to have as many of these
          > experiences as possible, and the more grandiose,
          > the better. It gives one pause to wonder: just what
          > is a spiritual experience and what is it worth in
          > one's life.
          >
          > It is common for some people to go out of body, or
          > have feelings of expansion or universality in the
          > context of their meditation practices and lives.
          > More often than not these get labeled as kundalini
          > emergence, and this gives those who have them
          > permission to call them spiritual and pin them on
          > their sleeve.
          >
          > But almost any advaitic sage, including Ramana and
          > Vivekananda, would advise the sadhaka to *ignore*
          > these experiences if and when they occur. They
          > would also offer that such experiences are only that
          > much more Maya, and despite the seemingly cosmic
          > proportions of what is experienced, each and every
          > one of these occurrences is no better than a common
          > daydream.
          >
          > This isn't to say that there isn't valuable information
          > to be gleaned from such experiences, nor to say that
          > these experiences are not indicative of the continuing
          > process of personal transformation. But to form an
          > attachment to these experiences as indications of
          > one's own spiritual mastery is the worst form of
          > spiritual materialism. This serves to create the graven
          > image of the adept, sealing one's own understanding in
          > a suitcase of conceit decorated with the pictures one
          > collects while on vacation in a spiritual Disney land.

          An on-target post, Jody.

          I'd even say that the information gleaned from any
          experience is irrelevant, except insofar as one
          expects to be able to apply that information to
          another experience.

          Which requires an experiencer to be moving from
          one experience to another.

          This moment, as there is no division between experience
          and experiencer, the relativity of all experience is apparent --
          that is, the conceptual nature of anything called experience
          is obvious.

          As there is no separation of experience and experiencer,
          there is no having of experience, no recording of
          "what is."

          Memory is an aspect of experience that allows the illusion
          of a separable, self-reflective experiencer to seemingly
          happen.

          Hence the joys of conceptuality, including the joy of
          dividing "spiritual experience" from "ordinary experience,"
          gleaning information, and constructing the notion of
          spiritual transformation happening to a person over time.

          Yours in nothing-happening,
          Ordinary Dan
        • satkartar7
          ... well said Jody I am with you love, Karta
          Message 4 of 30 , May 27, 2003
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
            > People collect their spiritual "experiences" like merit
            > badges, to show them off at their meetings with other
            > badge collectors. These experiences are normally
            > deemed to be in the category "spiritual" by the one
            > who had the experience. It is in the best interests
            > of the spiritual ambitionist to have as many of these
            > experiences as possible, and the more grandiose,
            > the better. It gives one pause to wonder: just what
            > is a spiritual experience and what is it worth in
            > one's life.
            >
            > It is common for some people to go out of body, or
            > have feelings of expansion or universality in the
            > context of their meditation practices and lives.
            > More often than not these get labeled as kundalini
            > emergence, and this gives those who have them
            > permission to call them spiritual and pin them on
            > their sleeve.
            >
            > But almost any advaitic sage, including Ramana and
            > Vivekananda, would advise the sadhaka to *ignore*
            > these experiences if and when they occur. They
            > would also offer that such experiences are only that
            > much more Maya, and despite the seemingly cosmic
            > proportions of what is experienced, each and every
            > one of these occurrences is no better than a common
            > daydream.
            >
            > This isn't to say that there isn't valuable information
            > to be gleaned from such experiences, nor to say that
            > these experiences are not indicative of the continuing
            > process of personal transformation. But to form an
            > attachment to these experiences as indications of
            > one's own spiritual mastery is the worst form of
            > spiritual materialism. This serves to create the graven
            > image of the adept, sealing one's own understanding in
            > a suitcase of conceit decorated with the pictures one
            > collects while on vacation in a spiritual Disney land.

            well said Jody

            I am with you

            love, Karta
          • devianandi
            ... devi: maybe if you would stop with your negative essays you d take your God-realziton to a higher level
            Message 5 of 30 , May 27, 2003
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
              <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              > People collect their spiritual "experiences" like merit
              > badges, to show them off at their meetings with other
              > badge collectors. These experiences are normally
              > deemed to be in the category "spiritual" by the one
              > who had the experience. It is in the best interests
              > of the spiritual ambitionist to have as many of these
              > experiences as possible, and the more grandiose,
              > the better. It gives one pause to wonder: just what
              > is a spiritual experience and what is it worth in
              > one's life.
              >
              > It is common for some people to go out of body, or
              > have feelings of expansion or universality in the
              > context of their meditation practices and lives.
              > More often than not these get labeled as kundalini
              > emergence, and this gives those who have them
              > permission to call them spiritual and pin them on
              > their sleeve.
              >
              > But almost any advaitic sage, including Ramana and
              > Vivekananda, would advise the sadhaka to *ignore*
              > these experiences if and when they occur. They
              > would also offer that such experiences are only that
              > much more Maya, and despite the seemingly cosmic
              > proportions of what is experienced, each and every
              > one of these occurrences is no better than a common
              > daydream.
              >
              > This isn't to say that there isn't valuable information
              > to be gleaned from such experiences, nor to say that
              > these experiences are not indicative of the continuing
              > process of personal transformation. But to form an
              > attachment to these experiences as indications of
              > one's own spiritual mastery is the worst form of
              > spiritual materialism. This serves to create the graven
              > image of the adept, sealing one's own understanding in
              > a suitcase of conceit decorated with the pictures one
              > collects while on vacation in a spiritual Disney land.


              devi: maybe if you would stop with your negative essays you'd take
              your God-realziton to a higher level
            • satkartar7
              ...
              Message 6 of 30 , May 27, 2003
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                > > spiritual materialism. This serves to create the graven
                > > image of the adept, sealing one's own understanding in
                > > a suitcase of conceit decorated with the pictures one
                > > collects while on vacation in a spiritual Disney land.
                >
                >
                <devi: maybe if you would stop with
                your negative essays you'd take
                your God-realziton to a higher level>

                :) "a sufi is a one man organization"
                Nasrudin was approached by someone
                in the chai shop. "Nasrudin" said
                the man,"people say that you are a
                teacher and a Sufi. But I've never
                seen you at the Thursday meetings
                of the tariquat. How come?" "You
                see, I belong to the inner halka
                of the tariquat. We meet on other
                days." "Yes, I've heard that.

                But I know you do not attend their
                meetings either." "That's because
                I belong to the inner circle of the
                inner circle. It's very exclusive"
                "Oh yeah? And how many members in
                this inner circle?" "Only one. Me."



                from yosy
              • devianandi
                devi: karta, i don t read you .....your on ignore... to other group member, i beg you, please get karta to stop responding to me,,,she s making my time on the
                Message 7 of 30 , May 27, 2003
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  devi: karta, i don't read you .....your on ignore...
                  to other group member, i beg you, please get karta to stop responding
                  to me,,,she's making my time on the internet miserable, i don't need
                  advise, i need some other people to just speak up and tell her to
                  stop until she does............she is constanly making fun of me, my
                  religion of the Self, my ideas about creation and
                  reincarnation...please, get her to stop harassing me......make her
                  see that she has a big problem!





                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
                  <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
                  > > > spiritual materialism. This serves to create the graven
                  > > > image of the adept, sealing one's own understanding in
                  > > > a suitcase of conceit decorated with the pictures one
                  > > > collects while on vacation in a spiritual Disney land.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > <devi: maybe if you would stop with
                  > your negative essays you'd take
                  > your God-realziton to a higher level>
                  >
                  > :) "a sufi is a one man organization"
                  > Nasrudin was approached by someone
                  > in the chai shop. "Nasrudin" said
                  > the man,"people say that you are a
                  > teacher and a Sufi. But I've never
                  > seen you at the Thursday meetings
                  > of the tariquat. How come?" "You
                  > see, I belong to the inner halka
                  > of the tariquat. We meet on other
                  > days." "Yes, I've heard that.
                  >
                  > But I know you do not attend their
                  > meetings either." "That's because
                  > I belong to the inner circle of the
                  > inner circle. It's very exclusive"
                  > "Oh yeah? And how many members in
                  > this inner circle?" "Only one. Me."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > from yosy
                • G
                  ... responding ... need ... to ... my ... her ... G: no one can force her to behave how you want her to......... some get a grudge and hold it indefinitely as
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 27, 2003
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    devianandi <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > devi: karta, i don't read you .....your on ignore...
                    > to other group member, i beg you, please get karta to stop
                    responding
                    > to me,,,she's making my time on the internet miserable, i don't
                    need
                    > advise, i need some other people to just speak up and tell her
                    to
                    > stop until she does............she is constanly making fun of me,
                    my
                    > religion of the Self, my ideas about creation and
                    > reincarnation...please, get her to stop harassing me......make
                    her
                    > see that she has a big problem!


                    G: no one can force her to behave how you want her to.........

                    some get a grudge and hold it indefinitely as has been seen
                    over and over again in numerous ways and means...... some
                    set themselves up as judge - jury and executioner, based
                    upon simply not liking what was said or who they think they
                    perceive you to be ...... once they have that mindset it is
                    most difficult to get enough spaciousness to remove the
                    coloring that is now in place...... and everything they read
                    will be judged by their now quite firmly in place coloring ......

                    (hint) just don't open her posts if they are such a problem to
                    your happiness........ out of sight out of mind......

                    but yes if someone has an obvious abundant continued
                    ongoing vendetta : to attack in a personal manner with well
                    placed sarcasms and judgemental reactions of a negative
                    nature then it shows that somewhere a nerve has been
                    touched and they just can't move on ........ so see it as their
                    personal problem and let it go.......

                    no one can change their mind or concepts or ways of seeing
                    except the one that is holding onto them ......

                    you've heard the phrase it's not over until the fat lady sings ?
                    well for some it might not be over even then because it has
                    become a *personal mission* and point of *pride* to
                    continue in their abusive behaviors......

                    just because ill will is given it doesn't mean you
                    have to pick it up or carry it or digest it .... just spit it out
                    and go on ..... poison is poison be smart and don't drink it
                    in.......

                    Be Peace ...... Live Peace ..... Give Peace ..... if it is not
                    forthcoming then let the ill will rest with the expounder
                    thereof.......

                    am sorry that you have been feeling so put upon and
                    harrased ...... karta if you are reading this why don't you
                    simply give it a breathing space...... and let it go.....
                    everyone can see for themselves the truth of it all........

                    enough said.....


                    shanti om
                  • satkartar7
                    dear Ganga please kindly point out what did you preceive as ill will vile etc in my Nasrudin story?---
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 27, 2003
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      dear Ganga please kindly point out
                      what did you preceive as ill will vile
                      etc in my Nasrudin story?--->>>>>

                      <G: continue in their abusive behaviors......just because ill will
                      is given>

                      <devi: maybe if you would stop with
                      your negative essays you'd take
                      your God-realziton to a higher level>

                      :) "a sufi is a one man organization"
                      Nasrudin was approached by someone
                      in the chai shop. "Nasrudin" said
                      the man,"people say that you are a
                      teacher and a Sufi. But I've never
                      seen you at the Thursday meetings
                      of the tariquat. How come?" "You
                      see, I belong to the inner halka
                      of the tariquat. We meet on other
                      days." "Yes, I've heard that.
                      But I know you do not attend their
                      meetings either." "That's because
                      I belong to the inner circle of the
                      inner circle. It's very exclusive"
                      "Oh yeah? And how many members in
                      this inner circle?" "Only one. Me."

                      lk

                      > G: no one can force her to behave how you want her to.........
                      >
                      > some get a grudge and hold it indefinitely as has been seen
                      > over and over again in numerous ways and means...... some
                      > set themselves up as judge - jury and executioner, based
                      > upon simply not liking what was said or who they think they
                      > perceive you to be ...... once they have that mindset it is
                      > most difficult to get enough spaciousness to remove the
                      > coloring that is now in place...... and everything they read
                      > will be judged by their now quite firmly in place coloring ......
                      >
                      > (hint) just don't open her posts if they are such a problem to
                      > your happiness........ out of sight out of mind......
                      >
                      > but yes if someone has an obvious abundant continued
                      > ongoing vendetta : to attack in a personal manner with well
                      > placed sarcasms and judgemental reactions of a negative
                      > nature then it shows that somewhere a nerve has been
                      > touched and they just can't move on ........ so see it as their
                      > personal problem and let it go.......
                      >
                      > no one can change their mind or concepts or ways of seeing
                      > except the one that is holding onto them ......
                      >
                      > you've heard the phrase it's not over until the fat lady sings ?
                      > well for some it might not be over even then because it has
                      > become a *personal mission* and point of *pride* to

                      > continue in their abusive behaviors......
                      >
                      > just because ill will is given it doesn't mean you
                      > have to pick it up or carry it or digest it .... just spit it out

                      > and go on ..... poison is poison be smart and don't drink it
                      > in.......
                      >
                      > Be Peace ...... Live Peace ..... Give Peace ..... if it is not
                      > forthcoming then let the ill will rest with the expounder
                      > thereof.......
                      >
                      > am sorry that you have been feeling so put upon and
                      > harrased ...... karta if you are reading this why don't you
                      > simply give it a breathing space...... and let it go.....
                      > everyone can see for themselves the truth of it all........
                      >
                      > enough said.....
                      >
                      >
                      > shanti om
                    • G
                      ... please kindly point out what did you preceive as ill will vile etc in my Nasrudin story?--- G: it had nothing to do with the nasrudin story.....
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 27, 2003
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        "satkartar7" <mi_nok@y...> wrote:


                        > dear Ganga

                        please kindly point out what did you preceive as ill will vile
                        etc in my Nasrudin story?--->>>>>


                        G: it had nothing to do with the nasrudin story.....
                      • devianandi
                        ... devi: thanks for your considerations, i appreciated them
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 27, 2003
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          >
                          >
                          > G: it had nothing to do with the nasrudin story.....
                          devi: thanks for your considerations, i appreciated them
                        • cornelius
                          ... I agree. And we can include as an experience clung to the joy of telling other s that their spiritual experience amounts to daydreaming. That pointing
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dan330033"
                            <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                            > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                            > > People collect their spiritual "experiences" like merit
                            > > badges, to show them off at their meetings with other
                            > > badge collectors. These experiences are normally
                            > > deemed to be in the category "spiritual" by the one
                            > > who had the experience. It is in the best interests
                            > > of the spiritual ambitionist to have as many of these
                            > > experiences as possible, and the more grandiose,
                            > > the better. It gives one pause to wonder: just what
                            > > is a spiritual experience and what is it worth in
                            > > one's life.
                            > >
                            > > It is common for some people to go out of body, or
                            > > have feelings of expansion or universality in the
                            > > context of their meditation practices and lives.
                            > > More often than not these get labeled as kundalini
                            > > emergence, and this gives those who have them
                            > > permission to call them spiritual and pin them on
                            > > their sleeve.
                            > >
                            > > But almost any advaitic sage, including Ramana and
                            > > Vivekananda, would advise the sadhaka to *ignore*
                            > > these experiences if and when they occur. They
                            > > would also offer that such experiences are only that
                            > > much more Maya, and despite the seemingly cosmic
                            > > proportions of what is experienced, each and every
                            > > one of these occurrences is no better than a common
                            > > daydream.
                            > >
                            > > This isn't to say that there isn't valuable information
                            > > to be gleaned from such experiences, nor to say that
                            > > these experiences are not indicative of the continuing
                            > > process of personal transformation. But to form an
                            > > attachment to these experiences as indications of
                            > > one's own spiritual mastery is the worst form of
                            > > spiritual materialism. This serves to create the graven
                            > > image of the adept, sealing one's own understanding in
                            > > a suitcase of conceit decorated with the pictures one
                            > > collects while on vacation in a spiritual Disney land.
                            >
                            > An on-target post, Jody.
                            >
                            > I'd even say that the information gleaned from any
                            > experience is irrelevant, except insofar as one
                            > expects to be able to apply that information to
                            > another experience.
                            >
                            > Which requires an experiencer to be moving from
                            > one experience to another.
                            >
                            > This moment, as there is no division between experience
                            > and experiencer, the relativity of all experience is apparent --
                            > that is, the conceptual nature of anything called experience
                            > is obvious.
                            >
                            > As there is no separation of experience and experiencer,
                            > there is no having of experience, no recording of
                            > "what is."
                            >
                            > Memory is an aspect of experience that allows the illusion
                            > of a separable, self-reflective experiencer to seemingly
                            > happen.
                            >
                            > Hence the joys of conceptuality, including the joy of
                            > dividing "spiritual experience" from "ordinary experience,"
                            > gleaning information, and constructing the notion of
                            > spiritual transformation happening to a person over time.
                            >

                            I agree.

                            And we can include as an experience clung to the joy of telling
                            other's that their spiritual experience amounts to daydreaming.

                            That pointing accrues to the pointer the sensation of 'self-
                            righteousness'; i characterize it as such because it was mockingly
                            offered; that you don't point to that aspect of "spiritual
                            experiencing" is telling. Don't you think Jody gets something out
                            of "being the wetblanket".

                            Perhaps your pointing demonstrates that denial may play a role in
                            your seemingly transcendent recommendation "not to be attached to
                            experiences". Your commendation of "good post" for some represents
                            an avoidance of the appearance of being in conflict with a "buddy",
                            for example).

                            We mention this points, we however won't cling to any of them....ooh,
                            I like this, sounds "transcendent" of me.



                            Maybe the Disneyworld reference was not mocking, but meant as a mere
                            Wake up Call to Dreamers.
                            Hey, it follows in the grand tradition of a J.Krishnamurti...

                            But you see, these little email clips rarely offer the balanced
                            insights of a world class spiritual teaching. Instead, they come off
                            like 'wetblankets'...absolutely devoid of "compassion".

                            (I count you as an exception--Dan. Hell, I feel commanded to give
                            credit where it's due and I think others will agree (about dan's
                            compassion).

                            So a guy like J.K. didn't get to be world-class (yadayadayada)
                            without having said volumes about love and compassion.

                            Now, some like Jody are Bright, so calling him Abrasive simply won't
                            flight (brightness carries one at least 75% of the way towards
                            Enlightenment, especially the Anti-Guru kind of
                            enlightenment<wink><wink>, right Danny?).... he will say that
                            throwing around the wet-blankets IS compassion.

                            Yeah, right...prove it (dragging in RM's corpse "proves" nothing).....


                            > Yours in nothing-happening,

                            You wish...or rather 'keep dreaming'

                            > Ordinary Dan
                          • jodyrrr
                            ... wrote: [snip] ... Certainly, I must. It s a getting back at all the bullshit I believed in. I see it and respond, like a robot,
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cornelius"
                              <d_agenda2000@y...> wrote:

                              [snip]

                              > Don't you think Jody gets something out of "being the wetblanket".

                              Certainly, I must. It's a "getting back" at all the bullshit
                              I believed in. I see it and respond, like a robot, automatically.

                              > Perhaps your pointing demonstrates that denial may play a role in
                              > your seemingly transcendent recommendation "not to be attached to
                              > experiences". Your commendation of "good post" for some represents
                              > an avoidance of the appearance of being in conflict with a "buddy",
                              > for example).

                              [snip]

                              > Maybe the Disneyworld reference was not mocking, but meant as a mere
                              > Wake up Call to Dreamers.
                              > Hey, it follows in the grand tradition of a J.Krishnamurti...

                              It was polemics. ;)

                              > But you see, these little email clips rarely offer the balanced
                              > insights of a world class spiritual teaching. Instead, they come off
                              > like 'wetblankets'...absolutely devoid of "compassion".

                              I'm afraid I'd have to agree. I was at an event on Monday
                              where a tibetan buddhist teacher spoke of compassion as a spiritual
                              practice. Believe it or not I really enjoyed it, and saw that I could
                              afford to bring that into my life.

                              My lack of compassion is something to look at. I have
                              compassion for the people I come into contact with in
                              real life. If you asked my friends and acquaintances,
                              they'd tell you I'm very friendly, if not a little obnoxious.

                              But online it's the ideas I'm going after, not the people.
                              But when the people are identified with the ideas it gets
                              personal, unfortunately. Perhaps I could remember that
                              a little bit more.

                              [snip]

                              > Now, some like Jody are Bright, so calling him Abrasive simply won't
                              > flight (brightness carries one at least 75% of the way towards
                              > Enlightenment, especially the Anti-Guru kind of
                              > enlightenment<wink><wink>, right Danny?).... he will say that
                              > throwing around the wet-blankets IS compassion.

                              If it caused one person to decide to look beyond their
                              fancy meditation experiences, then yes, it was compassionate.

                              It's not like I'm being a prick without purpose. I'm living
                              in a major new age commerce zone. Meditation experiences
                              are sold as mini vacations around here.

                              My tradition teaches that meditation experiences are not
                              important, but I see people making them the reason they
                              are practicing. That's their business. I guess it's mine to
                              grumble about it.

                              It's not offered as world class spiritual teaching. It's just
                              me blowing off some steam as a way to cope with my life
                              at the moment.

                              --jody.
                            • cornelius
                              ... wetblanket . ... Well you know better than I that meditation (qualified, as generally understood on this list) are not simply based on beliefs. There are
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                              View Source
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cornelius"
                                > <d_agenda2000@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > [snip]
                                >
                                > > Don't you think Jody gets something out of "being the
                                wetblanket".
                                >
                                > Certainly, I must. It's a "getting back" at all the bullshit
                                > I believed in. I see it and respond, like a robot, automatically.

                                Well you know better than I that meditation (qualified, as generally
                                understood on this list) are not simply based on beliefs.
                                There are beliefs that can stand being de-mystified and de-
                                constructed. So your calling them nonsense is a short-cut, I suppose.

                                For example, re: "Kundalini" thread, my interest in it is not beyond
                                that of a visual-sensory technique for observing energy patterns.
                                All the talk about Kundalini Awakening is too suggestive.

                                Some perspectives sound to me like "Look, I survived Kundalini
                                Awakening and if you don't want to go crazy or drop dead, I recommend
                                talking to me..."

                                We thrive so much on Specificity, so where is a nice de-
                                construction/clear-headed discussion of this psycho-somatic-mystical
                                happening?


                                > > Perhaps your pointing demonstrates that denial may play a role in
                                > > your seemingly transcendent recommendation "not to be attached to
                                > > experiences". Your commendation of "good post" for some
                                represents
                                > > an avoidance of the appearance of being in conflict with
                                a "buddy",
                                > > for example).
                                >
                                > [snip]
                                >
                                > > Maybe the Disneyworld reference was not mocking, but meant as a
                                mere
                                > > Wake up Call to Dreamers.
                                > > Hey, it follows in the grand tradition of a J.Krishnamurti...
                                >
                                > It was polemics. ;)
                                >
                                > > But you see, these little email clips rarely offer the balanced
                                > > insights of a world class spiritual teaching. Instead, they come
                                off
                                > > like 'wetblankets'...absolutely devoid of "compassion".
                                >
                                > I'm afraid I'd have to agree. I was at an event on Monday
                                > where a tibetan buddhist teacher spoke of compassion as a spiritual
                                > practice. Believe it or not I really enjoyed it, and saw that I
                                could
                                > afford to bring that into my life.
                                >
                                > My lack of compassion is something to look at. I have
                                > compassion for the people I come into contact with in
                                > real life. If you asked my friends and acquaintances,
                                > they'd tell you I'm very friendly, if not a little obnoxious.

                                AHA, i feel vindicated...silly me....
                                But really, the nature of the cyberworld is impersonalism...
                                Maybe we'll look back on this infant stage of virtual relating and
                                think "that faceless intimacy was weird"....maybe Not.

                                It's all a test for "no-self" understanding, i.e., to remember that
                                there is 'no-personal' rivalry...a la Karta/Judy (or any other
                                body/mind coupling)

                                >
                                > But online it's the ideas I'm going after, not the people.
                                > But when the people are identified with the ideas it gets
                                > personal, unfortunately. Perhaps I could remember that
                                > a little bit more.
                                >
                                > [snip]
                                >
                                > > Now, some like Jody are Bright, so calling him Abrasive simply
                                won't
                                > > flight (brightness carries one at least 75% of the way towards
                                > > Enlightenment, especially the Anti-Guru kind of
                                > > enlightenment<wink><wink>, right Danny?).... he will say that
                                > > throwing around the wet-blankets IS compassion.
                                >
                                > If it caused one person to decide to look beyond their
                                > fancy meditation experiences, then yes, it was compassionate.
                                >
                                > It's not like I'm being a prick without purpose. I'm living
                                > in a major new age commerce zone. Meditation experiences
                                > are sold as mini vacations around here.


                                I would be very surprised if anyone here (including lurkers) didn't
                                have a method or nonmethod of "de-constructing" attachment to self,
                                aka, meditation, contemplation, mindfulness..etc.


                                >
                                > My tradition teaches that meditation experiences are not
                                > important, but I see people making them the reason they
                                > are practicing. That's their business. I guess it's mine to
                                > grumble about it.
                                >
                                > It's not offered as world class spiritual teaching. It's just
                                > me blowing off some steam as a way to cope with my life
                                > at the moment.

                                'world class spiritual teaching'...right, you're referring to my
                                dragging out Krishnamurti's corpse to make the point, oh well...I
                                try..

                                > --jody.

                                thanks for your reply

                                cornelius
                              • G
                                ... cornelius ... wetblanket . ... role in ... attached to ... represents ... buddy , ... meant as a mere ... come off ... spiritual ... simply won t ... G:
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                  "cornelius"
                                  > <d_agenda2000@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > [snip]
                                  >
                                  > > Don't you think Jody gets something out of "being the
                                  wetblanket".
                                  >
                                  > Certainly, I must. It's a "getting back" at all the bullshit
                                  > I believed in. I see it and respond, like a robot, automatically.
                                  >
                                  > > Perhaps your pointing demonstrates that denial may play a
                                  role in
                                  > > your seemingly transcendent recommendation "not to be
                                  attached to
                                  > > experiences". Your commendation of "good post" for some
                                  represents
                                  > > an avoidance of the appearance of being in conflict with a
                                  "buddy",
                                  > > for example).
                                  >
                                  > [snip]
                                  >
                                  > > Maybe the Disneyworld reference was not mocking, but
                                  meant as a mere
                                  > > Wake up Call to Dreamers.
                                  > > Hey, it follows in the grand tradition of a J.Krishnamurti...
                                  >
                                  > It was polemics. ;)
                                  >
                                  > > But you see, these little email clips rarely offer the balanced
                                  > > insights of a world class spiritual teaching. Instead, they
                                  come off
                                  > > like 'wetblankets'...absolutely devoid of "compassion".
                                  >
                                  > I'm afraid I'd have to agree. I was at an event on Monday
                                  > where a tibetan buddhist teacher spoke of compassion as a
                                  spiritual
                                  > practice. Believe it or not I really enjoyed it, and saw that I could
                                  > afford to bring that into my life.
                                  >
                                  > My lack of compassion is something to look at. I have
                                  > compassion for the people I come into contact with in
                                  > real life. If you asked my friends and acquaintances,
                                  > they'd tell you I'm very friendly, if not a little obnoxious.
                                  >
                                  > But online it's the ideas I'm going after, not the people.
                                  > But when the people are identified with the ideas it gets
                                  > personal, unfortunately. Perhaps I could remember that
                                  > a little bit more.
                                  >
                                  > [snip]
                                  >
                                  > > Now, some like Jody are Bright, so calling him Abrasive
                                  simply won't
                                  > > flight (brightness carries one at least 75% of the way towards
                                  > > Enlightenment, especially the Anti-Guru kind of
                                  > > enlightenment<wink><wink>, right Danny?).... he will say that
                                  > > throwing around the wet-blankets IS compassion.
                                  >
                                  > If it caused one person to decide to look beyond their
                                  > fancy meditation experiences, then yes, it was compassionate.
                                  >
                                  > It's not like I'm being a prick without purpose. I'm living
                                  > in a major new age commerce zone. Meditation experiences
                                  > are sold as mini vacations around here.
                                  >
                                  > My tradition teaches that meditation experiences are not
                                  > important, but I see people making them the reason they
                                  > are practicing. That's their business. I guess it's mine to
                                  > grumble about it.
                                  >
                                  > It's not offered as world class spiritual teaching. It's just
                                  > me blowing off some steam as a way to cope with my life
                                  > at the moment.
                                  >
                                  > --jody.


                                  G: if you are finding it tough to *cope* with life you might just try
                                  some of the practices that you are so hip about downing.....

                                  blowing off steam at others as a way to make your life better
                                  isn't a way to cope or to make anything better in the long run.....

                                  discernment is about seeing what is given from the heart and
                                  transparent honesty as a way to confirm that it IS possible
                                  versus that which is being sold on the marketplace for a profit
                                  as a magic cure all ......

                                  the spiritual path isn't easy .... having the supports pulled
                                  away isn't easy..... but until all the supports have been pulled
                                  away and there is no leg left to stand on then there is still the ego
                                  that is attempting to do it on their own...... in the end all have to
                                  surrender to Source - coming to the end of it all and then dying
                                  only to find that there is no death....... what dies is the
                                  conceptual self image and identity and baggage........ what
                                  remains is the unvarnished reality........

                                  many simply go after anyone who stands up visibly because they
                                  are on the net where you can vent your steam against the whole
                                  thing ......

                                  ( i understand that and while there are many charlattans there
                                  just might be some genuine from the heart - compassionate
                                  teachers who teach by relating their journeys and ways and
                                  means) rather than just reacting be honest in looking at what is
                                  being shared and why .......

                                  why are you so down on *fancy meditation experiences* and yet
                                  you admit needing to blow off steam just to cope..... perhaps
                                  you have sold the experiences short due to the fact that you
                                  might have stopped a bit early in your own journey........ this is
                                  not meant to be harsh but to say please consider once again
                                  spending time in enquiry or meditation or that which will in the
                                  end pull away these stresses and doubts ......

                                  just getting a glimpse isn't enough...... the reason is that there
                                  is still remaining more often then not the strong identification
                                  with body, mind, emotions and the day to day stuff ie:
                                  attachments ....... we have spoken about this before.... you
                                  have had a glimpse and so know the words and what is behind
                                  them...... but there is further to go ..... that heavy connection with
                                  who and what you believe yourself to be, has to come to a point
                                  of disintigration ...... once it does then don't take it back...... don't
                                  attempt to re-create it ...... there is no need..... it is the identities
                                  and compartmentalizations that are keeping the need for coping
                                  skills in place...... if no concreteness is held then if flows .....

                                  i commend you for your honesty it took being transparent
                                  enough to post this ...... that is a big step ....... rather than raging
                                  against others why not use that energy towards your spiritual
                                  sadhana..... ?

                                  good to see some honesty rather than the sarcasms......

                                  shanti om
                                • G
                                  ... beyond that of a visual-sensory technique for observing energy patterns. All the talk about Kundalini Awakening is too suggestive. ... Kundalini Awakening
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    > For example, re: "Kundalini" thread, my interest in it is not
                                    beyond that of a visual-sensory technique for observing energy
                                    patterns. All the talk about Kundalini Awakening is too
                                    suggestive.

                                    > Some perspectives sound to me like "Look, I survived
                                    Kundalini Awakening and if you don't want to go crazy or drop
                                    dead, I recommend talking to me..."

                                    > cornelius


                                    G: it is never about creating fear but about deconstructing it.....

                                    the ones that come to the kundalini site have for the most
                                    part been in the midst of confusion - living with out of control
                                    phenomena - fear - doubt - seeing lights - hearing nad and
                                    becoming sensitive to nth degree - having their worlds
                                    turned over through no fault of their own..... & illness.....
                                    what used to give comfort now may become totally
                                    terrorizing ...... intrusive thoughts .... seeing auras......
                                    heat up the spine so intense that one feels as if they are
                                    going to spontaneously combust ...... kundalini isn't about
                                    being a method as you seem to think that is a
                                    " visual-sensory technique for observing energy patterns."

                                    they have
                                    already gone through all the medical tests and dignoses
                                    have tried reiki , reading books, all the therapies and
                                    self avenues that they can think of.......

                                    yes i take a lot of flack by being willing to step up and say
                                    it was a 30 year journey ...... and i am sorry that you are
                                    reading into it a negative rather than the positive of there
                                    is a way through and out....... i went through all the fears,
                                    phenomena, and psychological shifts that occur along the
                                    way and have found out the hard way what works and
                                    doesn't to balance and move forward in a sane manner.....

                                    if you have read the books on the market you would find that
                                    they give nothing in the way of how to navigate it but simply
                                    tell either the horror stories or totally fabricated off the scale
                                    suggestions about the powers and greatness that one can
                                    achieve .......

                                    i am willing to take the flack in order to say what i can
                                    to help others navigate this most difficult path and
                                    happening..... most simply found themselves in the midst
                                    of it not having attempted to start this process at all.......
                                    their hearts were simply wanting to be of service and that
                                    of seeking God and what they got was a kundalini
                                    awakening......

                                    if you read the texts it is the old established Gurus that
                                    speak of the dangers of kundalini for those that do not have
                                    the correct guidance...... this isn't coming from me but from
                                    the written texts that anyone can get hold of....... so i do what
                                    i can to mitigate the fears and bring understanding on what
                                    works and what doesn't.......

                                    shanti om
                                  • jodyrrr
                                    ... wrote: [snip] ... Sweetie, it wasn t downing any particular practice, it was being attached to imagined results and placing value where there is none that
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                    View Source
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G" <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                      wrote:

                                      [snip]

                                      > G: if you are finding it tough to *cope* with life you might just try
                                      > some of the practices that you are so hip about downing.....

                                      Sweetie, it wasn't downing any particular practice, it was being
                                      attached to imagined results and placing value where there is
                                      none that I was aiming at.

                                      > blowing off steam at others as a way to make your life better
                                      > isn't a way to cope or to make anything better in the long run.....

                                      We all have our ways. You're blowing off your steam right now.
                                      If not, why would you even waste the time to expose yourself
                                      again?

                                      > discernment is about seeing what is given from the heart and
                                      > transparent honesty as a way to confirm that it IS possible
                                      > versus that which is being sold on the marketplace for a profit
                                      > as a magic cure all ......

                                      You mean, it's ok for you to blow your own horn because
                                      you make a wonderful example for us?

                                      > the spiritual path isn't easy .... having the supports pulled
                                      > away isn't easy..... but until all the supports have been pulled
                                      > away and there is no leg left to stand on then there is still the ego
                                      > that is attempting to do it on their own...... in the end all have to
                                      > surrender to Source - coming to the end of it all and then dying
                                      > only to find that there is no death....... what dies is the
                                      > conceptual self image and identity and baggage........ what
                                      > remains is the unvarnished reality........

                                      She goes on, and on, and on...

                                      > many simply go after anyone who stands up visibly because they
                                      > are on the net where you can vent your steam against the whole
                                      > thing ......

                                      Sweetie, I wasn't talking about you. I wasn't venting
                                      at anyone in particular. Why are you so sensitive and
                                      threatened all the time. Still tending your image?

                                      > ( i understand that and while there are many charlattans there
                                      > just might be some genuine from the heart - compassionate
                                      > teachers who teach by relating their journeys and ways and
                                      > means) rather than just reacting be honest in looking at what is
                                      > being shared and why .......

                                      So, your blowing your own horn is an expression of your
                                      compassion? Yeah, that and your need to be our spiritual
                                      boss lady.

                                      > why are you so down on *fancy meditation experiences* and yet
                                      > you admit needing to blow off steam just to cope..... perhaps
                                      > you have sold the experiences short due to the fact that you
                                      > might have stopped a bit early in your own journey........ this is
                                      > not meant to be harsh but to say please consider once again
                                      > spending time in enquiry or meditation or that which will in the
                                      > end pull away these stresses and doubts ......

                                      Inquiry is continuous. I'm still inquiring. Are you?

                                      > just getting a glimpse isn't enough...... the reason is that there
                                      > is still remaining more often then not the strong identification
                                      > with body, mind, emotions and the day to day stuff ie:
                                      > attachments ....... we have spoken about this before.... you
                                      > have had a glimpse and so know the words and what is behind
                                      > them...... but there is further to go ..... that heavy connection with
                                      > who and what you believe yourself to be, has to come to a point
                                      > of disintigration ...... once it does then don't take it back...... don't
                                      > attempt to re-create it ...... there is no need..... it is the identities
                                      > and compartmentalizations that are keeping the need for coping
                                      > skills in place...... if no concreteness is held then if flows .....

                                      Trivialization of my understanding noted. It's part of your
                                      rhetorical technique. Define person as having inferior knowledge
                                      and then bore them with your superior "understanding."

                                      > i commend you for your honesty it took being transparent
                                      > enough to post this ...... that is a big step ....... rather than raging
                                      > against others why not use that energy towards your spiritual
                                      > sadhana..... ?

                                      Because it's none of your business?

                                      > good to see some honesty rather than the sarcasms......
                                      >
                                      > shanti om

                                      I've got to wonder why you'd even bother to post to me.
                                      Haven't we established that you damage your guru image
                                      when you stoop to dealing with the likes of me?

                                      Were you once again trying to rehabilitate your image
                                      by casting me before your pedestal and showing the
                                      others your superior position, or were you just getting
                                      a few smacks in yourself while you had the chance?

                                      --jody.
                                    • Jason Fishman
                                      HEHE, this is beautiful advice. Interesting that you don t live in this advice. One cannot count how many times you ve blown of steam on this list :) I give
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                      View Source
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        HEHE, this is beautiful advice. Interesting that you
                                        don't live in this advice. One cannot count how many
                                        times you've blown of steam on this list :) I give you
                                        an "a" for compassion, though! Welcome to the
                                        anteroom...

                                        Peace and Love


                                        G: if you are finding it tough to *cope* with life
                                        you might just try
                                        some of the practices that you are so hip about
                                        downing.....

                                        blowing off steam at others as a way to make
                                        your life better
                                        isn't a way to cope or to make anything better in the
                                        long run.....

                                        discernment is about seeing what is given from
                                        the heart and
                                        transparent honesty as a way to confirm that it IS
                                        possible
                                        versus that which is being sold on the marketplace for
                                        a profit
                                        as a magic cure all ......

                                        the spiritual path isn't easy .... having the
                                        supports pulled
                                        away isn't easy..... but until all the supports have
                                        been pulled
                                        away and there is no leg left to stand on then there
                                        is still the ego
                                        that is attempting to do it on their own...... in
                                        the end all have to
                                        surrender to Source - coming to the end of it all and
                                        then dying
                                        only to find that there is no death....... what dies
                                        is the
                                        conceptual self image and identity and baggage........
                                        what
                                        remains is the unvarnished reality........

                                        many simply go after anyone who stands up visibly
                                        because they
                                        are on the net where you can vent your steam against
                                        the whole
                                        thing ......

                                        ( i understand that and while there are many
                                        charlattans there
                                        just might be some genuine from the heart -
                                        compassionate
                                        teachers who teach by relating their journeys and ways
                                        and
                                        means) rather than just reacting be honest in
                                        looking at what is
                                        being shared and why .......

                                        why are you so down on *fancy meditation experiences*
                                        and yet
                                        you admit needing to blow off steam just to cope.....
                                        perhaps
                                        you have sold the experiences short due to the fact
                                        that you
                                        might have stopped a bit early in your own
                                        journey........ this is
                                        not meant to be harsh but to say please consider once
                                        again
                                        spending time in enquiry or meditation or that which
                                        will in the
                                        end pull away these stresses and doubts ......

                                        just getting a glimpse isn't enough...... the
                                        reason is that there
                                        is still remaining more often then not the strong
                                        identification
                                        with body, mind, emotions and the day to day stuff
                                        ie:
                                        attachments ....... we have spoken about this
                                        before.... you
                                        have had a glimpse and so know the words and what is
                                        behind
                                        them...... but there is further to go ..... that
                                        heavy connection with
                                        who and what you believe yourself to be, has to come
                                        to a point
                                        of disintigration ...... once it does then don't take
                                        it back...... don't
                                        attempt to re-create it ...... there is no need.....
                                        it is the identities
                                        and compartmentalizations that are keeping the need
                                        for coping
                                        skills in place...... if no concreteness is held
                                        then if flows .....

                                        i commend you for your honesty it took being
                                        transparent
                                        enough to post this ...... that is a big step .......
                                        rather than raging
                                        against others why not use that energy towards your
                                        spiritual
                                        sadhana..... ?

                                        good to see some honesty rather than the
                                        sarcasms......

                                        shanti om


                                        __________________________________
                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                        Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                                        http://calendar.yahoo.com
                                      • texasbg2000
                                        ... ... you ... with ... don t ... identities ... flows ..... ... This would be good advice for someone who did not already know it. It
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                        View Source
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                          <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > --jody.

                                          you
                                          > have had a glimpse and so know the words and what is behind
                                          > them...... but there is further to go ..... that heavy connection
                                          with
                                          > who and what you believe yourself to be, has to come to a point
                                          > of disintigration ...... once it does then don't take it back......
                                          don't
                                          > attempt to re-create it ...... there is no need..... it is the
                                          identities
                                          > and compartmentalizations that are keeping the need for coping
                                          > skills in place...... if no concreteness is held then if
                                          flows .....

                                          >Trivialization of my understanding noted. It's part of your
                                          >rhetorical technique. Define person as having inferior knowledge
                                          >and then bore them with your superior "understanding."

                                          This would be good advice for someone who did not already know it.
                                          It could not possibly be intended for Jody. Anyone with sense after
                                          a few discussions with him would know to up the ante if the intention
                                          were not as he said, trivialization.

                                          A real sage would know that.

                                          Bobby G.
                                        • Jason Fishman
                                          ... Naw, a real person that isn t attempting to tout their understanding as superior and grease the retoric with maybe you should be looking into this, I m
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                          View Source
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@...> wrote:
                                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > "jodyrrr"
                                            > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                            > "G"
                                            > <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > --jody.
                                            >
                                            > you
                                            > > have had a glimpse and so know the words and what
                                            > is behind
                                            > > them...... but there is further to go ..... that
                                            > heavy connection
                                            > with
                                            > > who and what you believe yourself to be, has to
                                            > come to a point
                                            > > of disintigration ...... once it does then don't
                                            > take it back......
                                            > don't
                                            > > attempt to re-create it ...... there is no
                                            > need..... it is the
                                            > identities
                                            > > and compartmentalizations that are keeping the
                                            > need for coping
                                            > > skills in place...... if no concreteness is held
                                            > then if
                                            > flows .....
                                            >
                                            > >Trivialization of my understanding noted. It's part
                                            > of your
                                            > >rhetorical technique. Define person as having
                                            > inferior knowledge
                                            > >and then bore them with your superior
                                            > "understanding."
                                            >
                                            > This would be good advice for someone who did not
                                            > already know it.
                                            > It could not possibly be intended for Jody. Anyone
                                            > with sense after
                                            > a few discussions with him would know to up the ante
                                            > if the intention
                                            > were not as he said, trivialization.
                                            >
                                            > A real sage would know that.
                                            >
                                            > Bobby G.

                                            Naw, a real person that isn't attempting to tout their
                                            understanding as superior and grease the retoric with
                                            'maybe you should be looking into this, I'm immune',
                                            would know this. Some folks are still trying to get
                                            beyond and bring something back that will help
                                            everyone out. Sounds pretty nice, yet bringing
                                            anything back just doesn't bod well.

                                            It reminds me of the cave of wonders, full of gold and
                                            treasure right there for the taking, except, if one
                                            were to take out even a tidbit, it would turn into
                                            dust.

                                            Peace and Love

                                            __________________________________
                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                            Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                                            http://calendar.yahoo.com
                                          • jodyrrr
                                            ... Hey Bobby, I d like to think there s something you are saying to me here, something that I could benefit from understanding. The thing is that I can t
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                            View Source
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                                              <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                              > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                              > <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > --jody.
                                              >
                                              > you
                                              > > have had a glimpse and so know the words and what is behind
                                              > > them...... but there is further to go ..... that heavy connection
                                              > with
                                              > > who and what you believe yourself to be, has to come to a point
                                              > > of disintigration ...... once it does then don't take it back......
                                              > don't
                                              > > attempt to re-create it ...... there is no need..... it is the
                                              > identities
                                              > > and compartmentalizations that are keeping the need for coping
                                              > > skills in place...... if no concreteness is held then if
                                              > flows .....
                                              >
                                              > >Trivialization of my understanding noted. It's part of your
                                              > >rhetorical technique. Define person as having inferior knowledge
                                              > >and then bore them with your superior "understanding."
                                              >
                                              > This would be good advice for someone who did not already know it.
                                              > It could not possibly be intended for Jody. Anyone with sense after
                                              > a few discussions with him would know to up the ante if the intention
                                              > were not as he said, trivialization.
                                              >
                                              > A real sage would know that.
                                              >
                                              > Bobby G.

                                              Hey Bobby,

                                              I'd like to think there's something you are saying to me here,
                                              something that I could benefit from understanding. The thing
                                              is that I can't really make heads or tails out of this. We can
                                              chalk that up to my being a little dense. Could you please lay
                                              it out in an easy to understand passage for us less subtle folk?

                                              Thanks.

                                              --jody.
                                            • texasbg2000
                                              ... A sage is a real person. By far the vast majority of people believe the word Guru means an infallible person. You can accept your Guru s words as fact
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                              View Source
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                                                <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                                                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                                > > "jodyrrr"
                                                > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                                > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                                > > "G"
                                                > > <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                                > > > wrote:
                                                > > > --jody.
                                                > >
                                                > > you
                                                > > > have had a glimpse and so know the words and what
                                                > > is behind
                                                > > > them...... but there is further to go ..... that
                                                > > heavy connection
                                                > > with
                                                > > > who and what you believe yourself to be, has to
                                                > > come to a point
                                                > > > of disintigration ...... once it does then don't
                                                > > take it back......
                                                > > don't
                                                > > > attempt to re-create it ...... there is no
                                                > > need..... it is the
                                                > > identities
                                                > > > and compartmentalizations that are keeping the
                                                > > need for coping
                                                > > > skills in place...... if no concreteness is held
                                                > > then if
                                                > > flows .....
                                                > >
                                                > > >Trivialization of my understanding noted. It's part
                                                > > of your
                                                > > >rhetorical technique. Define person as having
                                                > > inferior knowledge
                                                > > >and then bore them with your superior
                                                > > "understanding."
                                                > >
                                                > > This would be good advice for someone who did not
                                                > > already know it.
                                                > > It could not possibly be intended for Jody. Anyone
                                                > > with sense after
                                                > > a few discussions with him would know to up the ante
                                                > > if the intention
                                                > > were not as he said, trivialization.
                                                > >
                                                > > A real sage would know that.
                                                > >
                                                > > Bobby G.
                                                >
                                                > Naw, a real person that isn't attempting to tout their
                                                > understanding as superior and grease the retoric with
                                                > 'maybe you should be looking into this, I'm immune',
                                                > would know this. Some folks are still trying to get
                                                > beyond and bring something back that will help
                                                > everyone out. Sounds pretty nice, yet bringing
                                                > anything back just doesn't bod well.
                                                >
                                                > It reminds me of the cave of wonders, full of gold and
                                                > treasure right there for the taking, except, if one
                                                > were to take out even a tidbit, it would turn into
                                                > dust.
                                                >
                                                > Peace and Love

                                                A sage is a real person.

                                                By far the vast majority of people believe the word 'Guru' means an
                                                infallible person. You can accept your Guru's words as fact without
                                                consideration. Teacher or Yogi is different. They know things but
                                                you don't put the infallible thing on them. If you call yourself a
                                                Guru you better not show your lack of focus or be stupid. You are
                                                asking for it.

                                                "The inner Teacher is the voice that shows you things.

                                                The inner Yogi is the one that wants to do it right.

                                                The inner Guru is the voice that is always right."

                                                If you can't hear the Guru then you have listen to the Yogi in you
                                                follow the teacher's advice so you can hear the Guru.

                                                Love
                                                Bobby G.
                                              • texasbg2000
                                                ... connection ... back...... ... it. ... after ... intention ... I need to take the Gene Poole course in Getting Your Point Across . What I meant to say was
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                                View Source
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                                                  > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                                                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                  > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                                  > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                                  > > <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  > > > --jody.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > you
                                                  > > > have had a glimpse and so know the words and what is behind
                                                  > > > them...... but there is further to go ..... that heavy
                                                  connection
                                                  > > with
                                                  > > > who and what you believe yourself to be, has to come to a point
                                                  > > > of disintigration ...... once it does then don't take it
                                                  back......
                                                  > > don't
                                                  > > > attempt to re-create it ...... there is no need..... it is the
                                                  > > identities
                                                  > > > and compartmentalizations that are keeping the need for coping
                                                  > > > skills in place...... if no concreteness is held then if
                                                  > > flows .....
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >Trivialization of my understanding noted. It's part of your
                                                  > > >rhetorical technique. Define person as having inferior knowledge
                                                  > > >and then bore them with your superior "understanding."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > This would be good advice for someone who did not already know
                                                  it.
                                                  > > It could not possibly be intended for Jody. Anyone with sense
                                                  after
                                                  > > a few discussions with him would know to up the ante if the
                                                  intention
                                                  > > were not as he said, trivialization.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > A real sage would know that.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Bobby G.
                                                  >
                                                  > Hey Bobby,
                                                  >
                                                  > I'd like to think there's something you are saying to me here,
                                                  > something that I could benefit from understanding. The thing
                                                  > is that I can't really make heads or tails out of this. We can
                                                  > chalk that up to my being a little dense. Could you please lay
                                                  > it out in an easy to understand passage for us less subtle folk?
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks.
                                                  >
                                                  > --jody.

                                                  I need to take the Gene Poole course in "Getting Your Point Across".
                                                  What I meant to say was that the advice g. gave would be fine if
                                                  intended for a person who did not already understand what she was
                                                  taking such pains to 'help' you with. You know those things already
                                                  so if she wants to help you she should come up with something
                                                  better.

                                                  I think we just proved me wrong in some way but I can't quite put my
                                                  finger on it. :o)

                                                  Love
                                                  Bobby G.
                                                • Jason Fishman
                                                  ... I love you Bobby, your humble modesty is a pleasure to witness. This humble modesty is built on the belief that there are those that are with some
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                                  View Source
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@...> wrote:
                                                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                                    > Jason Fishman
                                                    > <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                                                    > > > --- In
                                                    > meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                                    > > > "jodyrrr"
                                                    > > > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                                    > > > > --- In
                                                    > meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                                    > > > "G"
                                                    > > > <crystalkundalini@h...>
                                                    > > > > wrote:
                                                    > > > > --jody.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > you
                                                    > > > > have had a glimpse and so know the words and
                                                    > what
                                                    > > > is behind
                                                    > > > > them...... but there is further to go .....
                                                    > that
                                                    > > > heavy connection
                                                    > > > with
                                                    > > > > who and what you believe yourself to be, has
                                                    > to
                                                    > > > come to a point
                                                    > > > > of disintigration ...... once it does then
                                                    > don't
                                                    > > > take it back......
                                                    > > > don't
                                                    > > > > attempt to re-create it ...... there is no
                                                    > > > need..... it is the
                                                    > > > identities
                                                    > > > > and compartmentalizations that are keeping the
                                                    > > > need for coping
                                                    > > > > skills in place...... if no concreteness is
                                                    > held
                                                    > > > then if
                                                    > > > flows .....
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > >Trivialization of my understanding noted. It's
                                                    > part
                                                    > > > of your
                                                    > > > >rhetorical technique. Define person as having
                                                    > > > inferior knowledge
                                                    > > > >and then bore them with your superior
                                                    > > > "understanding."
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > This would be good advice for someone who did
                                                    > not
                                                    > > > already know it.
                                                    > > > It could not possibly be intended for Jody.
                                                    > Anyone
                                                    > > > with sense after
                                                    > > > a few discussions with him would know to up the
                                                    > ante
                                                    > > > if the intention
                                                    > > > were not as he said, trivialization.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > A real sage would know that.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Bobby G.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Naw, a real person that isn't attempting to tout
                                                    > their
                                                    > > understanding as superior and grease the retoric
                                                    > with
                                                    > > 'maybe you should be looking into this, I'm
                                                    > immune',
                                                    > > would know this. Some folks are still trying to
                                                    > get
                                                    > > beyond and bring something back that will help
                                                    > > everyone out. Sounds pretty nice, yet bringing
                                                    > > anything back just doesn't bod well.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > It reminds me of the cave of wonders, full of gold
                                                    > and
                                                    > > treasure right there for the taking, except, if
                                                    > one
                                                    > > were to take out even a tidbit, it would turn into
                                                    > > dust.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Peace and Love
                                                    >
                                                    > A sage is a real person.
                                                    >
                                                    > By far the vast majority of people believe the word
                                                    > 'Guru' means an
                                                    > infallible person. You can accept your Guru's words
                                                    > as fact without
                                                    > consideration. Teacher or Yogi is different. They
                                                    > know things but
                                                    > you don't put the infallible thing on them. If you
                                                    > call yourself a
                                                    > Guru you better not show your lack of focus or be
                                                    > stupid. You are
                                                    > asking for it.
                                                    >
                                                    > "The inner Teacher is the voice that shows you
                                                    > things.
                                                    >
                                                    > The inner Yogi is the one that wants to do it right.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > The inner Guru is the voice that is always right."
                                                    >
                                                    > If you can't hear the Guru then you have listen to
                                                    > the Yogi in you
                                                    > follow the teacher's advice so you can hear the
                                                    > Guru.
                                                    >
                                                    > Love
                                                    > Bobby G.

                                                    I love you Bobby, your humble modesty is a pleasure to
                                                    witness. This humble modesty is built on the belief
                                                    that there are those that are with some understanding
                                                    that you just cannot see. This humbled learning
                                                    experience makes for great company :) Sages, gurus,
                                                    scientists, philosophists, blue collar workers are all
                                                    real people, living in the land where nothing is
                                                    beyond and no one comes and goes, sounds like a real
                                                    level playing field to me.

                                                    Continued Peace and Love to you.


                                                    __________________________________
                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                    Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                                                    http://calendar.yahoo.com
                                                  • texasbg2000
                                                    ... I love you too, Jason
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                                    View Source
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      > I love you Bobby

                                                      I love you too, Jason
                                                    • jodyrrr
                                                      ... wrote: [snip] ... Yeah. That s it. She has set herself up as our Mama guru here and it bugs me. Is that because I want to be a Papa
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                                      View Source
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                                                        <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:

                                                        [snip]

                                                        > I need to take the Gene Poole course in "Getting Your Point Across".
                                                        > What I meant to say was that the advice g. gave would be fine if
                                                        > intended for a person who did not already understand what she was
                                                        > taking such pains to 'help' you with. You know those things already
                                                        > so if she wants to help you she should come up with something
                                                        > better.

                                                        Yeah. That's it. She has set herself up as our Mama guru here and
                                                        it bugs me. Is that because I want to be a Papa guru? No. We already
                                                        have one of those. Is it because I'm the obnoxious teenage son?
                                                        Maybe. I feel much closer to a rebellious teenager than a pedantic
                                                        ├╝beradult like G, despite my own lapses into pedantry.

                                                        It's about a lot of stuff, which I'm willing to explore here. I also
                                                        enjoy exploring G's stuff, which she doesn't seem capable of
                                                        exploring in herself presently.

                                                        > I think we just proved me wrong in some way but I can't quite put my
                                                        > finger on it. :o)
                                                        >
                                                        > Love
                                                        > Bobby G.

                                                        That made things much clearer for me Bobby G.

                                                        Thanks.

                                                        --jody.
                                                      • texasbg2000
                                                        ... Across . ... already ... already ... also ... I like the use of the word presently . The important thing to remember is that anyone can change in a
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , May 28, 2003
                                                        View Source
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                          <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "texasbg2000"
                                                          > <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > [snip]
                                                          >
                                                          > > I need to take the Gene Poole course in "Getting Your Point
                                                          Across".
                                                          > > What I meant to say was that the advice g. gave would be fine if
                                                          > > intended for a person who did not already understand what she was
                                                          > > taking such pains to 'help' you with. You know those things
                                                          already
                                                          > > so if she wants to help you she should come up with something
                                                          > > better.
                                                          >
                                                          > Yeah. That's it. She has set herself up as our Mama guru here and
                                                          > it bugs me. Is that because I want to be a Papa guru? No. We
                                                          already
                                                          > have one of those. Is it because I'm the obnoxious teenage son?
                                                          > Maybe. I feel much closer to a rebellious teenager than a pedantic
                                                          > ├╝beradult like G, despite my own lapses into pedantry.
                                                          >
                                                          > It's about a lot of stuff, which I'm willing to explore here. I
                                                          also
                                                          > enjoy exploring G's stuff, which she doesn't seem capable of
                                                          > exploring in herself presently.
                                                          >

                                                          I like the use of the word "presently'. The important thing to
                                                          remember is that anyone can change in a heartbeat.

                                                          Be glad you are in the capital of the 'mystical experience badge
                                                          country'. It could be worse, ie, Texas.
                                                          Later
                                                          Bobby G.
                                                        • maxbrn2002
                                                          in the end all have to ... Where does this dying happen, Ganga? If we were to use Gene s analogy of the anteroom , are you saying that the conceptual self
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , May 29, 2003
                                                          View Source
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            in the end all have to
                                                            > surrender to Source - coming to the end of it all and then dying
                                                            > only to find that there is no death....... what dies is the
                                                            > conceptual self image and identity and baggage........



                                                            Where does this 'dying' happen, Ganga?

                                                            If we were to use Gene's analogy of the "anteroom",
                                                            are you saying that the conceptual self image and
                                                            identity of "Ganga" died while she was in the anteroom?

                                                            Or, are you saying that the image died while she
                                                            was on the otherside of the door?


                                                            If you meant it died "on the otherside",

                                                            once you come back to the anteroom, and begin talking to us,
                                                            are you saying that your conceptual self image
                                                            (and identity) does not return with you? Ever?
                                                            No matter where you are speaking?

                                                            Also, for clarification purposes,
                                                            could you give us an example of what
                                                            a "conceptual self image" and "identity" would
                                                            sound like if we heard it?

                                                            For example, if someone talks about who they
                                                            are, what they do, and why they do it,

                                                            would you consider that a "conceptual self image"?

                                                            Max
                                                          • maxbrn2002
                                                            Ganga, Are these below examples of conceptual self image and identity ? ... (and) ... Max
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , May 29, 2003
                                                            View Source
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Ganga,

                                                              Are these below examples of "conceptual self image" and "identity"?




                                                              >
                                                              > i am willing to take the flack in order to say what i can
                                                              > to help others navigate this most difficult path and
                                                              > happening.....


                                                              (and)

                                                              >so i do what
                                                              > i can to mitigate the fears and bring understanding on what
                                                              > works and what doesn't.......
                                                              >
                                                              > shanti om


                                                              Max
                                                            • cornelius
                                                              ... it..... ... control ... illness..... ... auras...... ... about ... say ... are ... fears, ... simply ... scale ... all....... ... from ... do what ... my
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , May 29, 2003
                                                              View Source
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                                                <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > > For example, re: "Kundalini" thread, my interest in it is not
                                                                > beyond that of a visual-sensory technique for observing energy
                                                                > patterns. All the talk about Kundalini Awakening is too
                                                                > suggestive.
                                                                >
                                                                > > Some perspectives sound to me like "Look, I survived
                                                                > Kundalini Awakening and if you don't want to go crazy or drop
                                                                > dead, I recommend talking to me..."
                                                                >
                                                                > > cornelius
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > G: it is never about creating fear but about deconstructing
                                                                it.....
                                                                >
                                                                > the ones that come to the kundalini site have for the most
                                                                > part been in the midst of confusion - living with out of
                                                                control
                                                                > phenomena - fear - doubt - seeing lights - hearing nad and
                                                                > becoming sensitive to nth degree - having their worlds
                                                                > turned over through no fault of their own..... &
                                                                illness.....
                                                                > what used to give comfort now may become totally
                                                                > terrorizing ...... intrusive thoughts .... seeing
                                                                auras......
                                                                > heat up the spine so intense that one feels as if they are
                                                                > going to spontaneously combust ...... kundalini isn't
                                                                about
                                                                > being a method as you seem to think that is a
                                                                > " visual-sensory technique for observing energy patterns."
                                                                >
                                                                > they have
                                                                > already gone through all the medical tests and dignoses
                                                                > have tried reiki , reading books, all the therapies and
                                                                > self avenues that they can think of.......
                                                                >
                                                                > yes i take a lot of flack by being willing to step up and
                                                                say
                                                                > it was a 30 year journey ...... and i am sorry that you
                                                                are
                                                                > reading into it a negative rather than the positive of there
                                                                > is a way through and out....... i went through all the
                                                                fears,
                                                                > phenomena, and psychological shifts that occur along the
                                                                > way and have found out the hard way what works and
                                                                > doesn't to balance and move forward in a sane manner.....
                                                                >
                                                                > if you have read the books on the market you would find that
                                                                > they give nothing in the way of how to navigate it but
                                                                simply
                                                                > tell either the horror stories or totally fabricated off the
                                                                scale
                                                                > suggestions about the powers and greatness that one can
                                                                > achieve .......
                                                                >
                                                                > i am willing to take the flack in order to say what i can
                                                                > to help others navigate this most difficult path and
                                                                > happening..... most simply found themselves in the midst
                                                                > of it not having attempted to start this process at
                                                                all.......
                                                                > their hearts were simply wanting to be of service and that
                                                                > of seeking God and what they got was a kundalini
                                                                > awakening......
                                                                >
                                                                > if you read the texts it is the old established Gurus that
                                                                > speak of the dangers of kundalini for those that do not have
                                                                > the correct guidance...... this isn't coming from me but
                                                                from
                                                                > the written texts that anyone can get hold of....... so i
                                                                do what
                                                                > i can to mitigate the fears and bring understanding on what
                                                                > works and what doesn't.......
                                                                >
                                                                > shanti om

                                                                my point is that "kundalini" is a mystical or esoteric formulation.
                                                                A comglomeration of deity worship, energy balancing, visualization,
                                                                bhakti yoga, Magic etc. (one source I have in mind is material by
                                                                Radhakrishna)
                                                                As such, it can be contrasted with approaches that are more
                                                                mechanical, more palatable to "left-brain' thinking.

                                                                You mentioned that you help alleviate fear in students for which
                                                                other approaches did not work.
                                                                Of course, others who cannot 'get into' the imagery of Kundalini,
                                                                will have their fears alleviated by a practice as minimalist and
                                                                nonEsoteric as Martial Arts training.

                                                                I have No questions on whether your methods are positive and helpful.
                                                                I can see that you combine different approaches and "speak"
                                                                different "languages" (Christian esoterics, RM type 'self-enquiry"
                                                                etc), I'm not attempting to Paint your approach into a Box....

                                                                I'm attempting to point out how 'kundalini' is steeped in symbolic or
                                                                esoteric language and that Evidence of Kundalini Awakening (for
                                                                example) is highly Subjective.
                                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.