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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Sandeep/Ramon - simple English please

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  • Sandeep Chatterjee
    Hiya Tony, ... From: Tony To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:40 PM Subject: [Meditation Society of America]
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 30, 2002
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      Hiya Tony,

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Tony
      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:40 PM
      Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Sandeep/Ramon - simple English please


      Hello Sandeep,

      Thank you so much for such a detailed response.

      I will just summarize the section I think you want me to answer...


      "...If one sees this, the obvious question that arises, how did this sense
      of separation arise?

      What did "Tony" do, to create this sense of separation, which is the cause
      of all his suffering, which he attempts to mitigate through whatever
      techniques, spiritual practises, paths, Gurus, whatever?

      Surely if you had a say in the matter,Tony, you would have done better for
      yourself, than what is in the moment, wouldn't you? <LOL>

      So the real question, is what is "your" role in creating the mess that you
      call living?

      What is the lint in the eye, which causes Life to appear, for Tony, as Life
      is, in the moment ?..."

      ---------
      Tony:

      My response would be that life appears the way it is only when I identify
      myself with my thinking mind. It is only at such times that I see the world
      as separate and not exactly as I want the world to be. Could we find in
      meditation a means of "experiencing" without thought so we get brief
      glimpses of this thoughtless condition?
      -----

      Not detracting meditation or any effort, let's look at the crux of the matter.

      In the seeing " the world as separate and not exactly as I want the world to be" is the disturbance, isn't it?

      Looking for a method, a means, a tool, an authority, to get out of this "separated" seeing, would be perpetuating the issue, wouldn't it?

      At this moment, what is the situation?

      There is a sense of entitification, which society has labeled 'Tony" and the immediate consequence of this sense of entitification, the sense of "me", is the seperation between the observing subject and the observed object.

      That in, fact is not the "problem", for Life, in order to be expressed needs this gestalt of duality.

      Where the issue arises, is the added attribute of a sense of personal doership.

      I think, ergo I am.(the famous dictum of Descartes)
      I choose, ergo I am.
      I do, ergo I am.
      I act, ergo I am.
      I meditate, ergo I am.
      I seek, ergo I am.
      I have attained Realization, Enlightenment, Moksha, or whatever is the favourite soup on the menu card, ergo I am.

      It is this sense of doership, which is the sense of "should",

      Whether it is to have the world exactly as you want it to be...........

      Or.....

      it is to......

      "find in meditation a means of "experiencing" without thought so we get brief glimpses of this thoughtless condition"


      So long there is a need to find a "means", whether in meditation, or any other system/path, there is a thought(Need is a feeling which is nothing but a thought.Try to feel a need without a thought existing)

      And with the thought, the "thoughtless condition" becomes a chimera.

      Funnily, "thoughtless condition", occur every night.

      "Tony" cannot make it happen, but it happens through "Tony".

      In the state of deep sleep, when even dreaming has ceased, "Tony" is no more.

      "Tony" is no more, thoughts are no more.

      "Tony" is no more, "Tony's world" is no more.
      "Tony's world", with all it's achievements, failures, actions, hopes, beliefs, enlightened realizations, affirmations, denials, all objectives of becoming, all methodologies of becoming, all goals, spiritual or mundane ones, all relationships, loved ones, un-loved ones, all the ethos and pathos of despair, anguish, joy, happines, pleasures,............... all that is........ kaaaapuuut......... in the state of deep-sleep.

      (And this is not just spiritual mumbo-jumbo, but findings of neuro-science)


      With the end of the deep sleep state, "Tony" is created again and Tony's world "re-appears".

      The seemingly continuance of the different "worlds" of Tony, leads him to believe, he is living a Life in a linear sequence, where one event goes into another, where cause-effect relationship seems to operate.

      Whereas what is really happening is that "Tony" is being lived.

      Moment to moment to moment.

      And one moment could be the act of meditation occuring through Tony, or it could be the act of haggling over the price of fish in a fish-market.

      (which really have no differential value in between them)


      Thus the lint in the eye, is nothing but this sense of entitification, this "me", this sense of doership.

      If there is an interest, to explore this further, we could take a walk.

      Zip-A-Dee-Dah-Doo



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tony
      Hi Sandeep, Thanks again for such a detailed response. Please give me a few days to fully understand what you have said. Cheers...Tony PS - After reading your
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 31, 2002
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        Hi Sandeep,

        Thanks again for such a detailed response. Please give me a few days to
        fully understand what you have said.

        Cheers...Tony

        PS - After reading your post I wonder if I am actually giving good advice on
        meditation.
      • Tony
        Hi Sandeep, I guess I am ready for our little walk... Thus the lint in the eye, is nothing but this sense of entitification, this me , this sense of doership.
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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          Hi Sandeep,

          I guess I am ready for our little walk...

          Thus the lint in the eye, is nothing but this sense of entitification,
          this "me", this sense of doership.

          If there is an interest, to explore this further, we could take a walk.

          Zip-A-Dee-Dah-Doo


          ...Tony
        • medit8ionsociety
          Dear Tony, I think that there are times when Sandeep appears and times when he disappears. I might be (and hope I am) mistaken, but I think he has disappeared.
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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            Dear Tony,
            I think that there are times when Sandeep appears and times when he
            disappears. I might be (and hope I am) mistaken, but I think he has
            disappeared. Let's look within and see if we can find him.
            Peace and blessings,
            Bob
            "Tony" <tosime@l...> wrote:
            > Hi Sandeep,
            >
            > I guess I am ready for our little walk...
            >
            > Thus the lint in the eye, is nothing but this sense of
            entitification,
            > this "me", this sense of doership.
            >
            > If there is an interest, to explore this further, we could take a
            walk.
            >
            > Zip-A-Dee-Dah-Doo
            >
            >
            > ...Tony
          • Tony
            Hi Bob, Thanks for your message and the pointer to the deeper dimension. I will probably mail Sandeep directly. However, I look forward to his return. ...
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 15, 2002
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              Hi Bob,

              Thanks for your message and the pointer to the deeper dimension.

              I will probably mail Sandeep directly. However, I look forward to his
              return.

              ...Tony

              -----Original Message-----
              From: medit8ionsociety [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:11 AM
              To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Sandeep - simple English
              please


              Dear Tony,
              I think that there are times when Sandeep appears and times when he
              disappears. I might be (and hope I am) mistaken, but I think he has
              disappeared. Let's look within and see if we can find him.
              Peace and blessings,
              Bob
              "Tony" <tosime@l...> wrote:
              > Hi Sandeep,
              >
              > I guess I am ready for our little walk...
              >
              > Thus the lint in the eye, is nothing but this sense of
              entitification,
              > this "me", this sense of doership.
              >
              > If there is an interest, to explore this further, we could take a
              walk.
              >
              > Zip-A-Dee-Dah-Doo
              >
              >
              > ...Tony



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