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Re: Truth does the work -- with no before or after

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  • dan330033
    ... Karta - This is exactly why Gautama said life is suffering because of the going in and out of states of being. And you can work on going into your
    Message 1 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
      <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dan330033"
      <dan330033@y...> wrote:
      > > As one great teacher said, about those seeking to get
      > > into states and those offering them, "the blind
      > > leading the blind."
      > >
      > > "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
      > >
      > > "Truth walked among them, but they knew it not."
      > >
      > > If Truth which is Life chooses you, you will know it
      > > immediately -- or if not, one may
      > > continue as a self with its images --
      > > images of states to be in or out of, anti-gurus,
      > > pro-gurus, guru-promoting, guru-bashing,
      > > guru-evaluating in the right and wrong ways, and
      > > techniques to be in favor of or against.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > Either Truth is the meditation that is doing you --
      > > or you are trying to do meditation to have an
      > > experience, to know something, to attain a realization ...
      > >
      > > The truth is right here, is not a drug or a state,
      > > is not something familiar, is not an image to
      > > which you have reactions pro or con.
      > >
      >
      > Come off it pleeeeze Dan!
      >
      > you sound like that mutated oki when
      > talking about "stastes* etc
      >
      > THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
      > A *SATE*
      >
      > OK?`
      >
      > and some choses to work on refning it
      >
      > Karta

      Karta -

      This is exactly why Gautama said "life is suffering"
      because of the going in and out of states of being.

      And you can work on going into your desired states
      all you want -- that is nothing but your suffering.

      Gautama taught the end of suffering.

      It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
      and of the states of which that one goes in and out.

      Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
      going to like this news, and will find all kinds
      of ways to ignore and distort this truth if possible,
      so as to keep on with the same old investments,
      whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.

      -- Dan


      > > If Truth works through you, then there is only Truth --
      > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be promoted, bashed,
      > > to get into or out of a state --
      > >
      > > -- Dan
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      medit8ionsociety
      > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > We'll never know for sure because it is possible that there are
      > > others
      > > > whose followers, or they themselves never have "gone public",
      but
      > > the
      > > > Guru who may have had the greatest number of disciples who
      attained
      > > > Realization in the 20th Century was Swami Sivananda. He has
      left
      > > over
      > > > 350 books he authored that well demonstrate his first hand
      > > experience
      > > > and understanding of Enlightenment. But in his own eyes, he
      never
      > > saw
      > > > himself as something special. He would let his followers give
      him
      > > > flowers, pranam to him, sing his praises, and so on, as is the
      > > custom
      > > > in India. It was his habit to then go to his very humble room
      (he
      > > had
      > > > no Rolls Royces or Rolex's either), and hit himself on his back
      with
      > > > books while berating himself to himself with statements
      like "Who do
      > > > you think you are? You're just a sack of skin, filled with
      feces,
      > > > puss, urine, bile, etc" and other similar "beam me back down to
      > > earth,
      > > > Scotty" type statements. Why? Because he felt that all the
      glories
      > > > that he was showered with might divert him from his aim of
      helping
      > > > others. His whole life was one of service to others. He had
      been a
      > > > physician, and never stopped trying to heal the sick of body,
      mind,
      > > > emotions, or spirit. His entire teaching was summed up in the
      simple
      > > > formula "Be good. Do good." And the things he pointed to
      directly as
      > > > the greatest things to work on before and after Enlightenment
      were
      > > > compassion and humility. I am sharing this now because there is
      > > such a
      > > > tremendous amount of Guru bashing going on at various internet
      > > groups
      > > > and web sites. What I suggest is that if there is a judgement
      about
      > > a
      > > > Guru to be made, it should be made upon the criteria of "Are
      they
      > > > compassionate and humble? Are they teaching that and living
      that?",
      > > > and of course, the content of the wisdom they share. It should
      not
      > > be
      > > > about their looks, what they wear, or even if they have or
      don't
      > > have
      > > > Rolls Royces.
      > > > And if you do find peace when you meditate about them and what
      they
      > > > teach, they may very well be worth continuing to learn from.
      And if
      > > > you meditate about them or what they teach, and it takes your
      peace
      > > > away, they are not a Guru for you, and you should not squander
      any
      > > > more energy on them by trying to tear them down, get revenge,
      > > feeling
      > > > anger over what they do, and so on. Just be compassionate
      towards
      > > > them, and stop carrying them around by filling your mind with
      > > thoughts
      > > > about them, or letting your body get tense, or your emotions get
      > > > riled up. Those type things just feed into your feelings of
      > > > self-importance and take away your humility and compassion, and
      thus
      > > > stop your spiritual evolution in its tracks. Be compassionate to
      > > > yourself. Don't let others (even if they are Enlightened)
      actions
      > > > create waves in your inner ocean. And if they say or do
      something
      > > that
      > > > you take personally, take that as an opportunity to experience
      > > > humility. You know - the "Turn the other cheek" thing. Oh yeah,
      one
      > > > other thing - I'm not advocating beating yourself with books.
      When
      > > you
      > > > see yourself filling up with pride because of some received
      praise,
      > > > it's OK to just smile, accept it, and go on with the quest for
      more
      > > > humility and compassion in gentler ways:-)
      > > > Peace and blessings,
      > > > Bob
    • Jason Fishman
      Howdy Karta, ... Jason: Dan can t come off it, he can t even get on it. ... Jason: Why then, isn t this as obvious as your stating it is? I just can t seem to
      Message 2 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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        Howdy Karta,

        > > Come off it pleeeeze Dan!

        Jason: Dan can't come off it, he can't even get on it.


        > > you sound like that mutated oki when
        > > talking about "stastes* etc
        > >
        > > THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
        > > A *SATE*
        > >
        > > OK?`

        Jason: Why then, isn't this as obvious as your stating
        it is? I just can't seem to figure out an arguement
        that is presented..

        > > and some choses to work on refning it

        Jason: Very good, this refinement sounds like fun!

        > > Karta
        >
        > Karta -

        Howdy over there Dan,

        > This is exactly why Gautama said "life is suffering"
        > because of the going in and out of states of
        > being.

        Jason: Funny, I'm certain I like to suffer :)

        > And you can work on going into your desired states
        > all you want -- that is nothing but your
        > suffering.

        Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on the
        commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
        commings and goings are beginings and endings
        perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer. In
        this sense there is no begining or ending.

        > Gautama taught the end of suffering.

        Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over. When it
        does end we won't know about it.

        > It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
        > and of the states of which that one goes in and
        > out.

        Jason: HaHa!

        > Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
        > going to like this news, and will find all kinds
        > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
        > possible,
        > so as to keep on with the same old investments,
        > whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.

        Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in this
        union. I think what is obvious here is to notice that
        since we all are comers and goers, this being
        dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a union.
        Then the in and out states can be seen and enjoyed.


        > > > If Truth works through you, then there is only
        > Truth --
        > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
        > promoted, bashed,
        > > > to get into or out of a state --

        Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we would
        all be within the parameters of only this truth (of
        course there isn't only truth since truth would have
        no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire to
        know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating the
        comming and goings. I know what your saying about
        truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all our
        commings and goings.


        > > > -- Dan

        Peace and Love

        __________________________________
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        The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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      • satkartar7
        ... Howdy!? oh did I hurt an oki? sorry I meant a cow not an oki Jason! one is ALWAYS coming in and out of states when you are having a diarreah *state*
        Message 3 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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          Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
          > Howdy Karta,

          Howdy!? oh did I hurt an oki?

          sorry I meant a cow not an oki

          <grin>

          Jason! one is ALWAYS coming in and
          out of states

          when you are having a diarreah *state*
          you will come out of it after
          taking a shit

          that is enough lecture for now

          meditate on this

          Love, Karta


          >
          > K: Come off it pleeeeze Dan!
          >
          > Jason: Dan can't come off it, he can't even get on it.
          >
          >
          > K: you sound like that mutated oki when
          > talking about "stastes* etc
          >
          > THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
          > A *SATE*
          >
          > OK?`
          >
          > Jason: Why then, isn't this as obvious as your stating
          > it is? I just can't seem to figure out an arguement
          > that is presented..
          >
          > K: and some choses to work on refning it
          >
          > Jason: Very good, this refinement sounds like fun!
          >
          >
          > Howdy over there Dan,
          >
          > > This is exactly why Gautama said "life is suffering"
          > > because of the going in and out of states of
          > > being.
          >
          > Jason: Funny, I'm certain I like to suffer :)
          >
          > > And you can work on going into your desired states
          > > all you want -- that is nothing but your
          > > suffering.
          >
          > Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on the
          > commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
          > commings and goings are beginings and endings
          > perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer. In
          > this sense there is no begining or ending.
          >
          > > Gautama taught the end of suffering.
          >
          > Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over. When it
          > does end we won't know about it.
          >
          > > It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
          > > and of the states of which that one goes in and
          > > out.
          >
          > Jason: HaHa!
          >
          > > Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
          > > going to like this news, and will find all kinds
          > > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
          > > possible,
          > > so as to keep on with the same old investments,
          > > whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.
          >
          > Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in this
          > union. I think what is obvious here is to notice that
          > since we all are comers and goers, this being
          > dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a union.
          > Then the in and out states can be seen and enjoyed.
          >
          >
          > > > > If Truth works through you, then there is only
          > > Truth --
          > > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
          > > promoted, bashed,
          > > > > to get into or out of a state --
          >
          > Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we would
          > all be within the parameters of only this truth (of
          > course there isn't only truth since truth would have
          > no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire to
          > know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating the
          > comming and goings. I know what your saying about
          > truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all our
          > commings and goings.
          >
          >
          > > > > -- Dan
          >
          > Peace and Love
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
          > http://search.yahoo.com
        • dan330033
          Hi Jason -- Nice hearing from you. ... As I see it: as there is insight, there is no beginning or ending. with no insight, there is habitual acceptance of
          Message 4 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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            Hi Jason --

            Nice hearing from you.

            You wrote, in part:

            > Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on the
            > commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
            > commings and goings are beginings and endings
            > perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer. In
            > this sense there is no begining or ending.

            As I see it: as there is insight, there is no
            beginning or ending. with no insight, there is
            habitual acceptance of existing as one who comes in
            and goes out of states of being.

            Insight doesn't come into one, nor does one go
            into it. Realizing this noncoming, nongoing,
            one is then free to come and go, as you suggest.

            > > Gautama taught the end of suffering.
            >
            > Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over. When it
            > does end we won't know about it.

            The it that ends, is the it that has a beginning.

            The beginnningless, endless, being clarity itself,
            can never leave or enter.

            > > It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
            > > and of the states of which that one goes in and
            > > out.
            >
            > Jason: HaHa!

            Ho ho!

            > > Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
            > > going to like this news, and will find all kinds
            > > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
            > > possible,
            > > so as to keep on with the same old investments,
            > > whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.
            >
            > Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in this
            > union. I think what is obvious here is to notice that
            > since we all are comers and goers, this being
            > dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a union.
            > Then the in and out states can be seen and enjoyed.

            What's enjoyed, for me, is the noncoming, nongoing,
            that allows comings and goings to be seen through,
            instantly -- and yes, day to day life of comings
            and goings, attaching and detaching, can be "suffered"
            in equanimity -- none of it is any problem --
            and none of it is exempted -- all of it, as is,
            is "this" ...

            > > > > If Truth works through you, then there is only
            > > Truth --
            > > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
            > > promoted, bashed,
            > > > > to get into or out of a state --
            >
            > Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we would
            > all be within the parameters of only this truth (of
            > course there isn't only truth since truth would have
            > no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire to
            > know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating the
            > comming and goings. I know what your saying about
            > truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all our
            > commings and goings.

            What you're saying seems valid to me.

            Although this truth has no exemptions, and nothing
            and no one is left out -- knowing this from
            deep in one's bones isn't the common state of
            affairs. People tend to protect a self that
            began and will end, which enters and leaves
            states, and which gains and loses. Realizing
            the truth that comes and goes not, none of the
            self-protection is bad, wrong or out of place --
            merely seen through. And seeing through is what
            truth is, when it "grabs" you, so to speak.
            When truth grabs you, you realize you are utterly
            subjugated from before the beginning.
            If truth doesn't grab you, you can't make yourself
            be grabbed. All you can do is enjoy your comings
            and goings in and out of states, until there aren't
            any, and it is clear there never have been for anyone,
            anywhere, at any time.

            Peace,
            Dan
          • Jason Fishman
            ... Jason: Always a pleasure to read your posts as well. ... Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn t it? So grandious this seeing through can be. ... Jason: makes
            Message 5 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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              --- dan330033 <dan330033@...> wrote:
              > Hi Jason --
              >
              > Nice hearing from you.

              Jason: Always a pleasure to read your posts as well.

              > You wrote, in part:
              >
              > > Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on
              > the
              > > commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
              > > commings and goings are beginings and endings
              > > perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer.
              > In
              > > this sense there is no begining or ending.
              >
              > As I see it: as there is insight, there is no
              > beginning or ending. with no insight, there is
              > habitual acceptance of existing as one who comes
              > in
              > and goes out of states of being.
              >
              > Insight doesn't come into one, nor does one go
              > into it. Realizing this noncoming, nongoing,
              > one is then free to come and go, as you suggest.

              Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So grandious
              this seeing through can be.

              > > > Gautama taught the end of suffering.
              > >
              > > Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over.
              > When it
              > > does end we won't know about it.
              >
              > The it that ends, is the it that has a beginning.
              >
              > The beginnningless, endless, being clarity itself,
              > can never leave or enter.

              Jason: makes sense to me

              > > > It is the end of the one going in and out of
              > states,
              > > > and of the states of which that one goes in
              > and
              > > > out.
              > >
              > > Jason: HaHa!
              >
              > Ho ho!

              Jason: who who? ... He She!

              > > > Of course, the one going in and out of states,
              > isn't
              > > > going to like this news, and will find all
              > kinds
              > > > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
              > > > possible,
              > > > so as to keep on with the same old
              > investments,
              > > > whether dressed in spiritual or material
              > clothes.
              > >
              > > Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in
              > this
              > > union. I think what is obvious here is to notice
              > that
              > > since we all are comers and goers, this being
              > > dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a
              > union.
              > > Then the in and out states can be seen and
              > enjoyed.
              >
              > What's enjoyed, for me, is the noncoming, nongoing,
              > that allows comings and goings to be seen through,
              > instantly -- and yes, day to day life of comings
              > and goings, attaching and detaching, can be
              > "suffered"
              > in equanimity -- none of it is any problem --
              > and none of it is exempted -- all of it, as is,
              > is "this" ...

              Jason: Yes, more sounding sensical. Even thought it
              sounds like a problem, I would have to say the trouble
              is there isn't much seeing comming.

              > > > > > If Truth works through you, then there is
              > only
              > > > Truth --
              > > > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
              > > > promoted, bashed,
              > > > > > to get into or out of a state --
              > >
              > > Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we
              > would
              > > all be within the parameters of only this truth
              > (of
              > > course there isn't only truth since truth would
              > have
              > > no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire
              > to
              > > know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating
              > the
              > > comming and goings. I know what your saying about
              > > truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all
              > our
              > > commings and goings.
              >
              > What you're saying seems valid to me.
              >
              > Although this truth has no exemptions, and nothing
              > and no one is left out -- knowing this from
              > deep in one's bones isn't the common state of
              > affairs.

              Jason: I tend to think that knowing is a much common
              affair, I tend to think seeing isn't. The sight seen
              or unseen is a common affair, yet the seeing without
              sight, quite uncommon indeed.

              > People tend to protect a self that
              > began and will end, which enters and leaves
              > states, and which gains and loses. Realizing
              > the truth that comes and goes not, none of the
              > self-protection is bad, wrong or out of place --
              > merely seen through. And seeing through is what
              > truth is, when it "grabs" you, so to speak.
              > When truth grabs you, you realize you are utterly
              > subjugated from before the beginning.
              > If truth doesn't grab you, you can't make yourself
              > be grabbed. All you can do is enjoy your comings
              > and goings in and out of states, until there
              > aren't
              > any, and it is clear there never have been for
              > anyone,
              > anywhere, at any time.

              Jason: I suppose this non-sense makes sense as well.
              Why then does it seem to me that no one is free from
              the truth that grabs, so to speak? Why does it seem
              more so that there is much attempting to get away from
              the truth that has never let go of anyone, anywhere,
              at any time? I see the answers, yet you do much better
              at making them sound nicer, to those that like nice
              sounding answers :)


              > Peace,
              > Dan
              >

              Peace and Love


              __________________________________
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              The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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            • dan330033
              Hi Jason -- ... No, not at all. That s a misunderstanding of insight. It occupies no space, has no weight, serves no purpose for anyone. snip ... Me, too.
              Message 6 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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                Hi Jason --

                > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So grandious
                > this seeing through can be.

                No, not at all.

                That's a misunderstanding of insight.

                It occupies no space, has no weight,
                serves no purpose for anyone.

                snip

                > Jason: makes sense to me

                Me, too.

                Also, "makes sense of me."

                > Jason: I tend to think that knowing is a much common
                > affair, I tend to think seeing isn't. The sight seen
                > or unseen is a common affair, yet the seeing without
                > sight, quite uncommon indeed.

                Yes, I agree.

                > Jason: I suppose this non-sense makes sense as well.
                > Why then does it seem to me that no one is free from
                > the truth that grabs, so to speak? Why does it seem
                > more so that there is much attempting to get away from
                > the truth that has never let go of anyone, anywhere,
                > at any time?

                Sad, but true.

                Well-said.

                > I see the answers, yet you do much better
                > at making them sound nicer, to those that like nice
                > sounding answers :)

                Heh, heh.

                Yup -- truth ain't pretty -- but therefore,
                it ain't ugly, neither.

                Peace upon you,
                Dan
              • Jason Fishman
                ... Jason: That s ok, no word has weight, serves any purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                Message 7 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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                  --- dan330033 <dan330033@...> wrote:
                  > Hi Jason --
                  >
                  > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                  > grandious
                  > > this seeing through can be.
                  >
                  > No, not at all.
                  >
                  > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                  >
                  > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                  > serves no purpose for anyone.

                  Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                  purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be
                  able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                  advocate this word "insight" as being misunderstood
                  entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn and
                  get's trampled on by identities that advocate words
                  just like insight, to say that those words have some
                  type of benifit over some other word, such as cabbage
                  or daring.

                  Peace and Love

                  __________________________________
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                • texasbg2000
                  ... This caught my eye Jason just as I am going to bed. no word has weight . I am sure you mean that people give weight to words or not. The power of the
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                    <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- dan330033 <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                    > > Hi Jason --
                    > >
                    > > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                    > > grandious
                    > > > this seeing through can be.
                    > >
                    > > No, not at all.
                    > >
                    > > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                    > >
                    > > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                    > > serves no purpose for anyone.
                    >
                    > Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                    > purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be
                    > able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                    > advocate this word "insight" as being misunderstood
                    > entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn and
                    > get's trampled on by identities that advocate words
                    > just like insight, to say that those words have some
                    > type of benifit over some other word, such as cabbage
                    > or daring.
                    >
                    > Peace and Love

                    This caught my eye Jason just as I am going to bed. 'no word has'
                    weight'. I am sure you mean that people give weight to words or
                    not.

                    The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda rests on the power of
                    the word. Everyone is influenced against their will by words whether
                    they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by sellers. All you
                    have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you will be sick. Tell
                    yourself you are horney and you will be.

                    communication happens whether you want it or not. Words have power
                    even if the power is to create the illusion that they are powerless
                    which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak exists then
                    silence is also a message.

                    Love
                    Bobby G.
                  • Jason Fishman
                    ... Jason: Glad it caught your eye, catching an artisic eye is a good thing to me. Yes, that is what I mean. In seeing that catching your eye is a good thing
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 4, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      > Jason Fishman
                      > <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- dan330033 <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                      > > > Hi Jason --
                      > > >
                      > > > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                      > > > grandious
                      > > > > this seeing through can be.
                      > > >
                      > > > No, not at all.
                      > > >
                      > > > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                      > > >
                      > > > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                      > > > serves no purpose for anyone.
                      > >
                      > > Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                      > > purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will
                      > ever be
                      > > able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                      > > advocate this word "insight" as being
                      > misunderstood
                      > > entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn
                      > and
                      > > get's trampled on by identities that advocate
                      > words
                      > > just like insight, to say that those words have
                      > some
                      > > type of benifit over some other word, such as
                      > cabbage
                      > > or daring.
                      > >
                      > > Peace and Love
                      >
                      > This caught my eye Jason just as I am going to bed.
                      > 'no word has'
                      > weight'. I am sure you mean that people give weight
                      > to words or
                      > not.

                      Jason: Glad it caught your eye, catching an artisic
                      eye is a good thing to me. Yes, that is what I mean.
                      In seeing that catching your eye is a good thing I'm
                      adding weight to your words and it brings forth the
                      happy emotion of your artistic eye taking notice.

                      > The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda
                      > rests on the power of
                      > the word. Everyone is influenced against their will
                      > by words whether
                      > they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by
                      > sellers. All you
                      > have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you
                      > will be sick. Tell
                      > yourself you are horney and you will be.

                      Jason: Words are, as is the power of the elements
                      legendary (earth, wind, water, fire). Those that take
                      to the words as legendary are preyed apon as those
                      that will not swim in the water since they may drown,
                      fly in the sky for they may fall, climb a mountain as
                      to not be lost in it's height or bask in the warmth of
                      fire as to not get burned.

                      > communication happens whether you want it or not.

                      Jason: This is true for those that take a
                      communication as a happening. I would have to say that
                      there is nothing but communication in an infinite
                      amount forms, even when nothing is said. If this
                      communication is always occuring, when can it be said
                      that communication can not be a happening?

                      > Words have power
                      > even if the power is to create the illusion that
                      > they are powerless
                      > which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak
                      > exists then
                      > silence is also a message.

                      Jason: When the moment comes that words hold no edge
                      to an identity then it can be said that words have no
                      power. I can never maintain the edge of words, they
                      dull with each passing moment. What I can say is that
                      there is no power greater then lossing the edge of
                      words, just as the earth blocks the wind, water douses
                      the flames, etc. One will never remove oneself from
                      the cycle of power, as this cycle of power is the
                      perpetuation of all communication. One can only
                      observe and react throughout every conceived notion of
                      power.

                      > Love
                      > Bobby G.

                      Peace and Love to you Bobby.


                      __________________________________
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                      http://search.yahoo.com
                    • texasbg2000
                      ... . ... yes we agree that the power of words diminish with understanding. Communication needs to be more powerful though. We need to come together more.
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 5, 2003
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                        <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                        .
                        >
                        > > The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda
                        > > rests on the power of
                        > > the word. Everyone is influenced against their will
                        > > by words whether
                        > > they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by
                        > > sellers. All you
                        > > have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you
                        > > will be sick. Tell
                        > > yourself you are horney and you will be.
                        >
                        > Jason: Words are, as is the power of the elements
                        > legendary (earth, wind, water, fire). Those that take
                        > to the words as legendary are preyed apon as those
                        > that will not swim in the water since they may drown,
                        > fly in the sky for they may fall, climb a mountain as
                        > to not be lost in it's height or bask in the warmth of
                        > fire as to not get burned.

                        >
                        > > communication happens whether you want it or not.
                        >
                        > Jason: This is true for those that take a
                        > communication as a happening. I would have to say that
                        > there is nothing but communication in an infinite
                        > amount forms, even when nothing is said. If this
                        > communication is always occuring, when can it be said
                        > that communication can not be a happening?
                        >
                        > > Words have power
                        > > even if the power is to create the illusion that
                        > > they are powerless
                        > > which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak
                        > > exists then
                        > > silence is also a message.
                        >
                        > Jason: When the moment comes that words hold no edge
                        > to an identity then it can be said that words have no
                        > power. I can never maintain the edge of words, they
                        > dull with each passing moment. What I can say is that
                        > there is no power greater then lossing the edge of
                        > words, just as the earth blocks the wind, water douses
                        > the flames, etc. One will never remove oneself from
                        > the cycle of power, as this cycle of power is the
                        > perpetuation of all communication. One can only
                        > observe and react throughout every conceived notion of
                        > power.
                        >
                        > Peace and Love to you Bobby.


                        yes we agree that the power of words diminish with understanding.
                        Communication needs to be more powerful though. We need to come
                        together more.
                        (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                        I have said before that we all on this board are very close together
                        in what we believe. There is an element of disagreement but we do
                        speak the same language.

                        Love
                        Bobby G.
                      • satkartar7
                        ... Bobby, you are beautiful! Love, Karta
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 5, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > >
                          > > > The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda
                          > > > rests on the power of
                          > > > the word. Everyone is influenced against their will
                          > > > by words whether
                          > > > they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by
                          > > > sellers. All you
                          > > > have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you
                          > > > will be sick. Tell
                          > > > yourself you are horney and you will be.
                          > >
                          > > Jason: Words are, as is the power of the elements
                          > > legendary (earth, wind, water, fire). Those that take
                          > > to the words as legendary are preyed apon as those
                          > > that will not swim in the water since they may drown,
                          > > fly in the sky for they may fall, climb a mountain as
                          > > to not be lost in it's height or bask in the warmth of
                          > > fire as to not get burned.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > > communication happens whether you want it or not.
                          > >
                          > > Jason: This is true for those that take a
                          > > communication as a happening. I would have to say that
                          > > there is nothing but communication in an infinite
                          > > amount forms, even when nothing is said. If this
                          > > communication is always occuring, when can it be said
                          > > that communication can not be a happening?
                          > >
                          > > > Words have power
                          > > > even if the power is to create the illusion that
                          > > > they are powerless
                          > > > which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak
                          > > > exists then
                          > > > silence is also a message.
                          > >
                          > > Jason: When the moment comes that words hold no edge
                          > > to an identity then it can be said that words have no
                          > > power. I can never maintain the edge of words, they
                          > > dull with each passing moment. What I can say is that
                          > > there is no power greater then lossing the edge of
                          > > words, just as the earth blocks the wind, water douses
                          > > the flames, etc. One will never remove oneself from
                          > > the cycle of power, as this cycle of power is the
                          > > perpetuation of all communication. One can only
                          > > observe and react throughout every conceived notion of
                          > > power.
                          > >
                          > > Peace and Love to you Bobby.
                          >
                          >
                          > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with understanding.
                          > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We need to come
                          > together more.

                          > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

                          Bobby, you are beautiful!

                          Love, Karta

                          > I have said before that we all on this board are very close together
                          > in what we believe. There is an element of disagreement but we do
                          > speak the same language.
                          >
                          > Love
                          > Bobby G.
                        • Jason Fishman
                          ... yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also defines our need to be apart. Not only this
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 5, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >
                            > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with
                            > understanding.
                            > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We
                            > need to come
                            > together more.
                            > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                            > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                            > I have said before that we all on this board are
                            > very close together
                            > in what we believe. There is an element of
                            > disagreement but we do
                            > speak the same language.
                            >
                            > Love
                            > Bobby G.

                            yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must
                            reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also
                            defines our need to be apart. Not only this board, but
                            all places in every corner of the universe is this
                            closeness as much a key as this apartness appears to
                            be.

                            It also seems to me that those folks that make claims
                            of expansion of mind are laking greatly in character.
                            That what the percieved prize of enlightment or some
                            state of realization holds a key to some great power,
                            has seemed to only make some heads swell. This is also
                            unfortunate. No one can nor ever will be able to make
                            any claim stating a place above or below anyone, not
                            even for a moment. Those claims fall on deaf ears to
                            those that have heard those words and give no words
                            meanings that hold weight, nor actions that move in
                            and out of states to be more or less powerful then
                            non-realizations. This is the key to apartness and is
                            just as much an illusion as two comming together.

                            Peace and Love

                            __________________________________
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                            http://search.yahoo.com
                          • dan330033
                            ... I agree, that was very daring of you, my cabbage. Now, I m steaming, and my glasses are fogged. My insight is nowhere in sight. Luckily, I can still hear
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 5, 2003
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                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                              <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- dan330033 <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                              > > Hi Jason --
                              > >
                              > > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                              > > grandious
                              > > > this seeing through can be.
                              > >
                              > > No, not at all.
                              > >
                              > > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                              > >
                              > > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                              > > serves no purpose for anyone.
                              >
                              > Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                              > purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be
                              > able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                              > advocate this word "insight" as being misunderstood
                              > entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn and
                              > get's trampled on by identities that advocate words
                              > just like insight, to say that those words have some
                              > type of benifit over some other word, such as cabbage
                              > or daring.
                              >
                              > Peace and Love

                              I agree, that was very daring of you,
                              my cabbage.

                              Now, I'm steaming, and my glasses are
                              fogged.

                              My insight is nowhere in sight.

                              Luckily, I can still hear you with my
                              cauliflower ear.

                              I believe this insight turns everything inside
                              out, while allowing it all to remain
                              exactly as it is.

                              Look!

                              Nothing up my sleeve,

                              Oops -- wrong sleeve,
                              Dan
                            • texasbg2000
                              ... Hi Jason: I don t know what you mean, but I meant the closeness in philosophy and terminology. In cancer research the virologists argue with the
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 5, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                                <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with
                                > > understanding.
                                > > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We
                                > > need to come
                                > > together more.
                                > > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                > > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                > > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                > > very close together
                                > > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                > > disagreement but we do
                                > > speak the same language.
                                > >
                                > > Love
                                > > Bobby G.
                                >
                                > yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must
                                > reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also
                                > defines our need to be apart. Not only this board, but
                                > all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                > closeness as much a key as this apartness appears to
                                > be.

                                Hi Jason:

                                I don't know what you mean, but I meant the closeness in philosophy
                                and terminology. In cancer research the virologists argue with the
                                immunologists about which is the most fruitful approach to a cure.
                                But they know what the other is talking about. They would both shun
                                me if I tried to join in a high level conversation. A fundamentalist
                                Christian or Hari Krisna comes on and we look askance. That is what
                                I meant, we are virtually the same against the hordes of ...
                                ignorant, infidels, heathens, rednecks and all management level
                                people.:o)

                                >
                                > It also seems to me that those folks that make claims
                                > of expansion of mind are laking greatly in character.
                                > That what the percieved prize of enlightment or some
                                > state of realization holds a key to some great power,
                                > has seemed to only make some heads swell. This is also
                                > unfortunate. No one can nor ever will be able to make
                                > any claim stating a place above or below anyone, not
                                > even for a moment. Those claims fall on deaf ears to
                                > those that have heard those words and give no words
                                > meanings that hold weight, nor actions that move in
                                > and out of states to be more or less powerful then
                                > non-realizations. This is the key to apartness and is
                                > just as much an illusion as two comming together.

                                I don't think an idea qualifies the real person. It is a
                                characteristic of some part of the personality of that person. That
                                characteristic can vanish in a moment. If you take a person in a
                                position to influence others and disbelieve every idea they have
                                because of their position you will exhibit prejudice. That does not
                                mean you are prejudiced. That is taking a specific incident and
                                making it generalized about that person. Cubby holing people.
                                People are free by nature. When you say "they are" or "I am this",
                                you really mean that is the nature of the act they committed and not
                                a statement about them.

                                But what happens? We look for and find that person to 'be' the way
                                we have decided they 'are'. Love has to be seeing a person as a new
                                thing each moment. Because they are. You can't love an image of
                                that person. The real thing is without attributes and the attributes
                                you atribute to them is in your head and not inherent in them. The
                                attributes in your head are blocks to your loving that person no
                                matter what acts they are involved in.

                                A person is lacking in character if they don't look at ideas without
                                prejudice. I have said many of the same things that Sivananda said
                                because he was one of the great proponents of Raja Yoga and I came up
                                through the same tradition for thirty years. I know what he means in
                                his statements and he is correct according to my own experience.

                                Here is the kick in the ass, Jason. You don't care whether I believe
                                him from my own experience, do you? You only really care what you
                                think of him.

                                Love
                                Bobby G.
                              • satkartar7
                                ... Jason, looks like you are coming out of being brainwashed and see your friend Judi clearer Karta
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 5, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with
                                  > > understanding.
                                  > > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We
                                  > > need to come
                                  > > together more.
                                  > > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                  > > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                  > > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                  > > very close together
                                  > > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                  > > disagreement but we do
                                  > > speak the same language.
                                  > >
                                  > > Love
                                  > > Bobby G.
                                  >
                                  > yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must
                                  > reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also
                                  > defines our need to be apart. Not only this board, but
                                  > all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                  > closeness as much a key as this apartness appears to
                                  > be.
                                  >
                                  > It also seems to me that those folks that make claims
                                  > of expansion of mind are laking greatly in character.
                                  > That what the percieved prize of enlightment or some
                                  > state of realization holds a key to some great power,
                                  > has seemed to only make some heads swell.



                                  Jason, looks like you are coming out
                                  of being brainwashed and see your
                                  friend Judi clearer



                                  Karta

                                  >This is also
                                  > unfortunate. No one can nor ever will be able to make
                                  > any claim stating a place above or below anyone, not
                                  > even for a moment. Those claims fall on deaf ears to
                                  > those that have heard those words and give no words
                                  > meanings that hold weight, nor actions that move in
                                  > and out of states to be more or less powerful then
                                  > non-realizations. This is the key to apartness and is
                                  > just as much an illusion as two comming together.
                                  >
                                  > Peace and Love
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________
                                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                                  > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                                  > http://search.yahoo.com
                                • Jason Fishman
                                  ... Jason: What I mean Bobby is there is no us against anyone/thing, regardless of knowledge. My son who is 10 years old can run me silly on a computer and
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 6, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@...> wrote:
                                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                    > Jason Fishman
                                    > <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > yes we agree that the power of words diminish
                                    > with
                                    > > > understanding.
                                    > > > Communication needs to be more powerful though.
                                    > We
                                    > > > need to come
                                    > > > together more.
                                    > > > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                    > > > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                    > > > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                    > > > very close together
                                    > > > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                    > > > disagreement but we do
                                    > > > speak the same language.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Love
                                    > > > Bobby G.
                                    > >
                                    > > yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I
                                    > must
                                    > > reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it
                                    > also
                                    > > defines our need to be apart. Not only this board,
                                    > but
                                    > > all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                    > > closeness as much a key as this apartness appears
                                    > to
                                    > > be.
                                    >
                                    > Hi Jason:
                                    >
                                    > I don't know what you mean, but I meant the
                                    > closeness in philosophy
                                    > and terminology. In cancer research the virologists
                                    > argue with the
                                    > immunologists about which is the most fruitful
                                    > approach to a cure.
                                    > But they know what the other is talking about. They
                                    > would both shun
                                    > me if I tried to join in a high level conversation.
                                    > A fundamentalist
                                    > Christian or Hari Krisna comes on and we look
                                    > askance. That is what
                                    > I meant, we are virtually the same against the
                                    > hordes of ...
                                    > ignorant, infidels, heathens, rednecks and all
                                    > management level
                                    > people.:o)

                                    Jason: What I mean Bobby is there is no us against
                                    anyone/thing, regardless of knowledge. My son who is
                                    10 years old can run me silly on a computer and I've
                                    been working on computers since I was 12. This doesn't
                                    mean he "knows" a damn thing about how computers
                                    function, yet he has the knack of learning how to get
                                    it to work. Knowledge is a limiting as an book is to
                                    an illiterate.

                                    (snip)

                                    > I don't think an idea qualifies the real person. It
                                    > is a
                                    > characteristic of some part of the personality of
                                    > that person. That
                                    > characteristic can vanish in a moment. If you take
                                    > a person in a
                                    > position to influence others and disbelieve every
                                    > idea they have
                                    > because of their position you will exhibit
                                    > prejudice. That does not
                                    > mean you are prejudiced. That is taking a specific
                                    > incident and
                                    > making it generalized about that person. Cubby
                                    > holing people.
                                    > People are free by nature. When you say "they are"
                                    > or "I am this",
                                    > you really mean that is the nature of the act they
                                    > committed and not
                                    > a statement about them.

                                    Jason: The generalization that you speak of is where
                                    it's at. Too many people attach money to cleverness,
                                    words to intellegence, pictures to art. I'm not saying
                                    these cannot be viewed as postitive things, what I'm
                                    saying is that those that attach this to that are
                                    limiting themselves to this and that.

                                    > But what happens? We look for and find that person
                                    > to 'be' the way
                                    > we have decided they 'are'. Love has to be seeing a
                                    > person as a new
                                    > thing each moment. Because they are. You can't
                                    > love an image of
                                    > that person. The real thing is without attributes
                                    > and the attributes
                                    > you atribute to them is in your head and not
                                    > inherent in them. The
                                    > attributes in your head are blocks to your loving
                                    > that person no
                                    > matter what acts they are involved in.

                                    Jason: Yes, exactly.. This is you telling me to love a
                                    person (i.e. Swami). This is me telling you I already
                                    do, have and always will love you and all other
                                    persons for exact who they are. What I cannot
                                    comprehend any longer is the limit to loving a person
                                    for an image of who they are. That this love has an
                                    end, that I should be or could be seeing a person in
                                    some new light in order to do something called loving
                                    them. I'm not even sure where we are missing each
                                    other here.

                                    > A person is lacking in character if they don't look
                                    > at ideas without
                                    > prejudice.

                                    Jason: Naw, extreme prejudice makes perfect sense to
                                    me, if your going down the road of love/hate there is
                                    no two ways about it.

                                    I have said many of the same things that
                                    > Sivananda said
                                    > because he was one of the great proponents of Raja
                                    > Yoga and I came up
                                    > through the same tradition for thirty years. I know
                                    > what he means in
                                    > his statements and he is correct according to my own
                                    > experience.

                                    Jason: I don't remember saying a thing about what your
                                    experience tells you to understand from his words. As
                                    long as you attach experiences to a version of truth,
                                    then thats what ya got a personal truth. Truth isn't
                                    about a person.

                                    > Here is the kick in the ass, Jason. You don't care
                                    > whether I believe
                                    > him from my own experience, do you? You only really
                                    > care what you
                                    > think of him.

                                    Jason: Exactly! Perfectly stated. I don't care, not 1
                                    iota. Not in what I think about a him or a you or any
                                    belief that I could ever attach to a him or a you or
                                    an anyone. If I did care then I most certainly would
                                    be selfishly loving a him or a you or an anyone,
                                    simply because I care what a him or a you have to
                                    offer in your interpretations. Caring/not caring isn't
                                    going to amount to a hill of beans when I'm done with
                                    what you have to offer, so what you have to offer is
                                    limiting to a me being done with it. I think I'll
                                    stick without imposing limits on who I do love and
                                    care for, as if there was a choice to do otherwise for
                                    a me.

                                    > Love
                                    > Bobby G.
                                    >

                                    Thank you for this seeing truth discussion Bobby,
                                    Peace and Love


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