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Re: Truth does the work -- with no before or after

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  • satkartar7
    ... Come off it pleeeeze Dan! you sound like that mutated oki when talking about stastes* etc THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN A *SATE* OK?` and some choses
    Message 1 of 20 , May 3 11:09 AM
      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dan330033" <dan330033@y...> wrote:
      > As one great teacher said, about those seeking to get
      > into states and those offering them, "the blind
      > leading the blind."
      >
      > "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
      >
      > "Truth walked among them, but they knew it not."
      >
      > If Truth which is Life chooses you, you will know it
      > immediately -- or if not, one may
      > continue as a self with its images --
      > images of states to be in or out of, anti-gurus,
      > pro-gurus, guru-promoting, guru-bashing,
      > guru-evaluating in the right and wrong ways, and
      > techniques to be in favor of or against.
      >






      > Either Truth is the meditation that is doing you --
      > or you are trying to do meditation to have an
      > experience, to know something, to attain a realization ...
      >
      > The truth is right here, is not a drug or a state,
      > is not something familiar, is not an image to
      > which you have reactions pro or con.
      >

      Come off it pleeeeze Dan!

      you sound like that mutated oki when
      talking about "stastes* etc

      THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
      A *SATE*

      OK?`

      and some choses to work on refning it

      Karta

      > If Truth works through you, then there is only Truth --
      > not anything or anyone apart -- to be promoted, bashed,
      > to get into or out of a state --
      >
      > -- Dan
      >
      >
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > We'll never know for sure because it is possible that there are
      > others
      > > whose followers, or they themselves never have "gone public", but
      > the
      > > Guru who may have had the greatest number of disciples who attained
      > > Realization in the 20th Century was Swami Sivananda. He has left
      > over
      > > 350 books he authored that well demonstrate his first hand
      > experience
      > > and understanding of Enlightenment. But in his own eyes, he never
      > saw
      > > himself as something special. He would let his followers give him
      > > flowers, pranam to him, sing his praises, and so on, as is the
      > custom
      > > in India. It was his habit to then go to his very humble room (he
      > had
      > > no Rolls Royces or Rolex's either), and hit himself on his back with
      > > books while berating himself to himself with statements like "Who do
      > > you think you are? You're just a sack of skin, filled with feces,
      > > puss, urine, bile, etc" and other similar "beam me back down to
      > earth,
      > > Scotty" type statements. Why? Because he felt that all the glories
      > > that he was showered with might divert him from his aim of helping
      > > others. His whole life was one of service to others. He had been a
      > > physician, and never stopped trying to heal the sick of body, mind,
      > > emotions, or spirit. His entire teaching was summed up in the simple
      > > formula "Be good. Do good." And the things he pointed to directly as
      > > the greatest things to work on before and after Enlightenment were
      > > compassion and humility. I am sharing this now because there is
      > such a
      > > tremendous amount of Guru bashing going on at various internet
      > groups
      > > and web sites. What I suggest is that if there is a judgement about
      > a
      > > Guru to be made, it should be made upon the criteria of "Are they
      > > compassionate and humble? Are they teaching that and living that?",
      > > and of course, the content of the wisdom they share. It should not
      > be
      > > about their looks, what they wear, or even if they have or don't
      > have
      > > Rolls Royces.
      > > And if you do find peace when you meditate about them and what they
      > > teach, they may very well be worth continuing to learn from. And if
      > > you meditate about them or what they teach, and it takes your peace
      > > away, they are not a Guru for you, and you should not squander any
      > > more energy on them by trying to tear them down, get revenge,
      > feeling
      > > anger over what they do, and so on. Just be compassionate towards
      > > them, and stop carrying them around by filling your mind with
      > thoughts
      > > about them, or letting your body get tense, or your emotions get
      > > riled up. Those type things just feed into your feelings of
      > > self-importance and take away your humility and compassion, and thus
      > > stop your spiritual evolution in its tracks. Be compassionate to
      > > yourself. Don't let others (even if they are Enlightened) actions
      > > create waves in your inner ocean. And if they say or do something
      > that
      > > you take personally, take that as an opportunity to experience
      > > humility. You know - the "Turn the other cheek" thing. Oh yeah, one
      > > other thing - I'm not advocating beating yourself with books. When
      > you
      > > see yourself filling up with pride because of some received praise,
      > > it's OK to just smile, accept it, and go on with the quest for more
      > > humility and compassion in gentler ways:-)
      > > Peace and blessings,
      > > Bob
    • dan330033
      ... Karta - This is exactly why Gautama said life is suffering because of the going in and out of states of being. And you can work on going into your
      Message 2 of 20 , May 3 12:01 PM
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
        <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dan330033"
        <dan330033@y...> wrote:
        > > As one great teacher said, about those seeking to get
        > > into states and those offering them, "the blind
        > > leading the blind."
        > >
        > > "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
        > >
        > > "Truth walked among them, but they knew it not."
        > >
        > > If Truth which is Life chooses you, you will know it
        > > immediately -- or if not, one may
        > > continue as a self with its images --
        > > images of states to be in or out of, anti-gurus,
        > > pro-gurus, guru-promoting, guru-bashing,
        > > guru-evaluating in the right and wrong ways, and
        > > techniques to be in favor of or against.
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > Either Truth is the meditation that is doing you --
        > > or you are trying to do meditation to have an
        > > experience, to know something, to attain a realization ...
        > >
        > > The truth is right here, is not a drug or a state,
        > > is not something familiar, is not an image to
        > > which you have reactions pro or con.
        > >
        >
        > Come off it pleeeeze Dan!
        >
        > you sound like that mutated oki when
        > talking about "stastes* etc
        >
        > THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
        > A *SATE*
        >
        > OK?`
        >
        > and some choses to work on refning it
        >
        > Karta

        Karta -

        This is exactly why Gautama said "life is suffering"
        because of the going in and out of states of being.

        And you can work on going into your desired states
        all you want -- that is nothing but your suffering.

        Gautama taught the end of suffering.

        It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
        and of the states of which that one goes in and out.

        Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
        going to like this news, and will find all kinds
        of ways to ignore and distort this truth if possible,
        so as to keep on with the same old investments,
        whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.

        -- Dan


        > > If Truth works through you, then there is only Truth --
        > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be promoted, bashed,
        > > to get into or out of a state --
        > >
        > > -- Dan
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
        medit8ionsociety
        > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > We'll never know for sure because it is possible that there are
        > > others
        > > > whose followers, or they themselves never have "gone public",
        but
        > > the
        > > > Guru who may have had the greatest number of disciples who
        attained
        > > > Realization in the 20th Century was Swami Sivananda. He has
        left
        > > over
        > > > 350 books he authored that well demonstrate his first hand
        > > experience
        > > > and understanding of Enlightenment. But in his own eyes, he
        never
        > > saw
        > > > himself as something special. He would let his followers give
        him
        > > > flowers, pranam to him, sing his praises, and so on, as is the
        > > custom
        > > > in India. It was his habit to then go to his very humble room
        (he
        > > had
        > > > no Rolls Royces or Rolex's either), and hit himself on his back
        with
        > > > books while berating himself to himself with statements
        like "Who do
        > > > you think you are? You're just a sack of skin, filled with
        feces,
        > > > puss, urine, bile, etc" and other similar "beam me back down to
        > > earth,
        > > > Scotty" type statements. Why? Because he felt that all the
        glories
        > > > that he was showered with might divert him from his aim of
        helping
        > > > others. His whole life was one of service to others. He had
        been a
        > > > physician, and never stopped trying to heal the sick of body,
        mind,
        > > > emotions, or spirit. His entire teaching was summed up in the
        simple
        > > > formula "Be good. Do good." And the things he pointed to
        directly as
        > > > the greatest things to work on before and after Enlightenment
        were
        > > > compassion and humility. I am sharing this now because there is
        > > such a
        > > > tremendous amount of Guru bashing going on at various internet
        > > groups
        > > > and web sites. What I suggest is that if there is a judgement
        about
        > > a
        > > > Guru to be made, it should be made upon the criteria of "Are
        they
        > > > compassionate and humble? Are they teaching that and living
        that?",
        > > > and of course, the content of the wisdom they share. It should
        not
        > > be
        > > > about their looks, what they wear, or even if they have or
        don't
        > > have
        > > > Rolls Royces.
        > > > And if you do find peace when you meditate about them and what
        they
        > > > teach, they may very well be worth continuing to learn from.
        And if
        > > > you meditate about them or what they teach, and it takes your
        peace
        > > > away, they are not a Guru for you, and you should not squander
        any
        > > > more energy on them by trying to tear them down, get revenge,
        > > feeling
        > > > anger over what they do, and so on. Just be compassionate
        towards
        > > > them, and stop carrying them around by filling your mind with
        > > thoughts
        > > > about them, or letting your body get tense, or your emotions get
        > > > riled up. Those type things just feed into your feelings of
        > > > self-importance and take away your humility and compassion, and
        thus
        > > > stop your spiritual evolution in its tracks. Be compassionate to
        > > > yourself. Don't let others (even if they are Enlightened)
        actions
        > > > create waves in your inner ocean. And if they say or do
        something
        > > that
        > > > you take personally, take that as an opportunity to experience
        > > > humility. You know - the "Turn the other cheek" thing. Oh yeah,
        one
        > > > other thing - I'm not advocating beating yourself with books.
        When
        > > you
        > > > see yourself filling up with pride because of some received
        praise,
        > > > it's OK to just smile, accept it, and go on with the quest for
        more
        > > > humility and compassion in gentler ways:-)
        > > > Peace and blessings,
        > > > Bob
      • Jason Fishman
        Howdy Karta, ... Jason: Dan can t come off it, he can t even get on it. ... Jason: Why then, isn t this as obvious as your stating it is? I just can t seem to
        Message 3 of 20 , May 3 5:07 PM
          Howdy Karta,

          > > Come off it pleeeeze Dan!

          Jason: Dan can't come off it, he can't even get on it.


          > > you sound like that mutated oki when
          > > talking about "stastes* etc
          > >
          > > THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
          > > A *SATE*
          > >
          > > OK?`

          Jason: Why then, isn't this as obvious as your stating
          it is? I just can't seem to figure out an arguement
          that is presented..

          > > and some choses to work on refning it

          Jason: Very good, this refinement sounds like fun!

          > > Karta
          >
          > Karta -

          Howdy over there Dan,

          > This is exactly why Gautama said "life is suffering"
          > because of the going in and out of states of
          > being.

          Jason: Funny, I'm certain I like to suffer :)

          > And you can work on going into your desired states
          > all you want -- that is nothing but your
          > suffering.

          Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on the
          commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
          commings and goings are beginings and endings
          perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer. In
          this sense there is no begining or ending.

          > Gautama taught the end of suffering.

          Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over. When it
          does end we won't know about it.

          > It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
          > and of the states of which that one goes in and
          > out.

          Jason: HaHa!

          > Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
          > going to like this news, and will find all kinds
          > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
          > possible,
          > so as to keep on with the same old investments,
          > whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.

          Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in this
          union. I think what is obvious here is to notice that
          since we all are comers and goers, this being
          dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a union.
          Then the in and out states can be seen and enjoyed.


          > > > If Truth works through you, then there is only
          > Truth --
          > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
          > promoted, bashed,
          > > > to get into or out of a state --

          Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we would
          all be within the parameters of only this truth (of
          course there isn't only truth since truth would have
          no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire to
          know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating the
          comming and goings. I know what your saying about
          truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all our
          commings and goings.


          > > > -- Dan

          Peace and Love

          __________________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
          http://search.yahoo.com
        • satkartar7
          ... Howdy!? oh did I hurt an oki? sorry I meant a cow not an oki Jason! one is ALWAYS coming in and out of states when you are having a diarreah *state*
          Message 4 of 20 , May 3 6:10 PM
            Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
            > Howdy Karta,

            Howdy!? oh did I hurt an oki?

            sorry I meant a cow not an oki

            <grin>

            Jason! one is ALWAYS coming in and
            out of states

            when you are having a diarreah *state*
            you will come out of it after
            taking a shit

            that is enough lecture for now

            meditate on this

            Love, Karta


            >
            > K: Come off it pleeeeze Dan!
            >
            > Jason: Dan can't come off it, he can't even get on it.
            >
            >
            > K: you sound like that mutated oki when
            > talking about "stastes* etc
            >
            > THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
            > A *SATE*
            >
            > OK?`
            >
            > Jason: Why then, isn't this as obvious as your stating
            > it is? I just can't seem to figure out an arguement
            > that is presented..
            >
            > K: and some choses to work on refning it
            >
            > Jason: Very good, this refinement sounds like fun!
            >
            >
            > Howdy over there Dan,
            >
            > > This is exactly why Gautama said "life is suffering"
            > > because of the going in and out of states of
            > > being.
            >
            > Jason: Funny, I'm certain I like to suffer :)
            >
            > > And you can work on going into your desired states
            > > all you want -- that is nothing but your
            > > suffering.
            >
            > Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on the
            > commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
            > commings and goings are beginings and endings
            > perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer. In
            > this sense there is no begining or ending.
            >
            > > Gautama taught the end of suffering.
            >
            > Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over. When it
            > does end we won't know about it.
            >
            > > It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
            > > and of the states of which that one goes in and
            > > out.
            >
            > Jason: HaHa!
            >
            > > Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
            > > going to like this news, and will find all kinds
            > > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
            > > possible,
            > > so as to keep on with the same old investments,
            > > whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.
            >
            > Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in this
            > union. I think what is obvious here is to notice that
            > since we all are comers and goers, this being
            > dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a union.
            > Then the in and out states can be seen and enjoyed.
            >
            >
            > > > > If Truth works through you, then there is only
            > > Truth --
            > > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
            > > promoted, bashed,
            > > > > to get into or out of a state --
            >
            > Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we would
            > all be within the parameters of only this truth (of
            > course there isn't only truth since truth would have
            > no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire to
            > know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating the
            > comming and goings. I know what your saying about
            > truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all our
            > commings and goings.
            >
            >
            > > > > -- Dan
            >
            > Peace and Love
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
            > http://search.yahoo.com
          • dan330033
            Hi Jason -- Nice hearing from you. ... As I see it: as there is insight, there is no beginning or ending. with no insight, there is habitual acceptance of
            Message 5 of 20 , May 3 10:57 PM
              Hi Jason --

              Nice hearing from you.

              You wrote, in part:

              > Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on the
              > commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
              > commings and goings are beginings and endings
              > perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer. In
              > this sense there is no begining or ending.

              As I see it: as there is insight, there is no
              beginning or ending. with no insight, there is
              habitual acceptance of existing as one who comes in
              and goes out of states of being.

              Insight doesn't come into one, nor does one go
              into it. Realizing this noncoming, nongoing,
              one is then free to come and go, as you suggest.

              > > Gautama taught the end of suffering.
              >
              > Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over. When it
              > does end we won't know about it.

              The it that ends, is the it that has a beginning.

              The beginnningless, endless, being clarity itself,
              can never leave or enter.

              > > It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
              > > and of the states of which that one goes in and
              > > out.
              >
              > Jason: HaHa!

              Ho ho!

              > > Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
              > > going to like this news, and will find all kinds
              > > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
              > > possible,
              > > so as to keep on with the same old investments,
              > > whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.
              >
              > Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in this
              > union. I think what is obvious here is to notice that
              > since we all are comers and goers, this being
              > dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a union.
              > Then the in and out states can be seen and enjoyed.

              What's enjoyed, for me, is the noncoming, nongoing,
              that allows comings and goings to be seen through,
              instantly -- and yes, day to day life of comings
              and goings, attaching and detaching, can be "suffered"
              in equanimity -- none of it is any problem --
              and none of it is exempted -- all of it, as is,
              is "this" ...

              > > > > If Truth works through you, then there is only
              > > Truth --
              > > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
              > > promoted, bashed,
              > > > > to get into or out of a state --
              >
              > Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we would
              > all be within the parameters of only this truth (of
              > course there isn't only truth since truth would have
              > no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire to
              > know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating the
              > comming and goings. I know what your saying about
              > truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all our
              > commings and goings.

              What you're saying seems valid to me.

              Although this truth has no exemptions, and nothing
              and no one is left out -- knowing this from
              deep in one's bones isn't the common state of
              affairs. People tend to protect a self that
              began and will end, which enters and leaves
              states, and which gains and loses. Realizing
              the truth that comes and goes not, none of the
              self-protection is bad, wrong or out of place --
              merely seen through. And seeing through is what
              truth is, when it "grabs" you, so to speak.
              When truth grabs you, you realize you are utterly
              subjugated from before the beginning.
              If truth doesn't grab you, you can't make yourself
              be grabbed. All you can do is enjoy your comings
              and goings in and out of states, until there aren't
              any, and it is clear there never have been for anyone,
              anywhere, at any time.

              Peace,
              Dan
            • Jason Fishman
              ... Jason: Always a pleasure to read your posts as well. ... Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn t it? So grandious this seeing through can be. ... Jason: makes
              Message 6 of 20 , May 4 2:23 AM
                --- dan330033 <dan330033@...> wrote:
                > Hi Jason --
                >
                > Nice hearing from you.

                Jason: Always a pleasure to read your posts as well.

                > You wrote, in part:
                >
                > > Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on
                > the
                > > commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
                > > commings and goings are beginings and endings
                > > perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer.
                > In
                > > this sense there is no begining or ending.
                >
                > As I see it: as there is insight, there is no
                > beginning or ending. with no insight, there is
                > habitual acceptance of existing as one who comes
                > in
                > and goes out of states of being.
                >
                > Insight doesn't come into one, nor does one go
                > into it. Realizing this noncoming, nongoing,
                > one is then free to come and go, as you suggest.

                Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So grandious
                this seeing through can be.

                > > > Gautama taught the end of suffering.
                > >
                > > Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over.
                > When it
                > > does end we won't know about it.
                >
                > The it that ends, is the it that has a beginning.
                >
                > The beginnningless, endless, being clarity itself,
                > can never leave or enter.

                Jason: makes sense to me

                > > > It is the end of the one going in and out of
                > states,
                > > > and of the states of which that one goes in
                > and
                > > > out.
                > >
                > > Jason: HaHa!
                >
                > Ho ho!

                Jason: who who? ... He She!

                > > > Of course, the one going in and out of states,
                > isn't
                > > > going to like this news, and will find all
                > kinds
                > > > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
                > > > possible,
                > > > so as to keep on with the same old
                > investments,
                > > > whether dressed in spiritual or material
                > clothes.
                > >
                > > Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in
                > this
                > > union. I think what is obvious here is to notice
                > that
                > > since we all are comers and goers, this being
                > > dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a
                > union.
                > > Then the in and out states can be seen and
                > enjoyed.
                >
                > What's enjoyed, for me, is the noncoming, nongoing,
                > that allows comings and goings to be seen through,
                > instantly -- and yes, day to day life of comings
                > and goings, attaching and detaching, can be
                > "suffered"
                > in equanimity -- none of it is any problem --
                > and none of it is exempted -- all of it, as is,
                > is "this" ...

                Jason: Yes, more sounding sensical. Even thought it
                sounds like a problem, I would have to say the trouble
                is there isn't much seeing comming.

                > > > > > If Truth works through you, then there is
                > only
                > > > Truth --
                > > > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
                > > > promoted, bashed,
                > > > > > to get into or out of a state --
                > >
                > > Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we
                > would
                > > all be within the parameters of only this truth
                > (of
                > > course there isn't only truth since truth would
                > have
                > > no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire
                > to
                > > know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating
                > the
                > > comming and goings. I know what your saying about
                > > truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all
                > our
                > > commings and goings.
                >
                > What you're saying seems valid to me.
                >
                > Although this truth has no exemptions, and nothing
                > and no one is left out -- knowing this from
                > deep in one's bones isn't the common state of
                > affairs.

                Jason: I tend to think that knowing is a much common
                affair, I tend to think seeing isn't. The sight seen
                or unseen is a common affair, yet the seeing without
                sight, quite uncommon indeed.

                > People tend to protect a self that
                > began and will end, which enters and leaves
                > states, and which gains and loses. Realizing
                > the truth that comes and goes not, none of the
                > self-protection is bad, wrong or out of place --
                > merely seen through. And seeing through is what
                > truth is, when it "grabs" you, so to speak.
                > When truth grabs you, you realize you are utterly
                > subjugated from before the beginning.
                > If truth doesn't grab you, you can't make yourself
                > be grabbed. All you can do is enjoy your comings
                > and goings in and out of states, until there
                > aren't
                > any, and it is clear there never have been for
                > anyone,
                > anywhere, at any time.

                Jason: I suppose this non-sense makes sense as well.
                Why then does it seem to me that no one is free from
                the truth that grabs, so to speak? Why does it seem
                more so that there is much attempting to get away from
                the truth that has never let go of anyone, anywhere,
                at any time? I see the answers, yet you do much better
                at making them sound nicer, to those that like nice
                sounding answers :)


                > Peace,
                > Dan
                >

                Peace and Love


                __________________________________
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              • dan330033
                Hi Jason -- ... No, not at all. That s a misunderstanding of insight. It occupies no space, has no weight, serves no purpose for anyone. snip ... Me, too.
                Message 7 of 20 , May 4 4:10 PM
                  Hi Jason --

                  > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So grandious
                  > this seeing through can be.

                  No, not at all.

                  That's a misunderstanding of insight.

                  It occupies no space, has no weight,
                  serves no purpose for anyone.

                  snip

                  > Jason: makes sense to me

                  Me, too.

                  Also, "makes sense of me."

                  > Jason: I tend to think that knowing is a much common
                  > affair, I tend to think seeing isn't. The sight seen
                  > or unseen is a common affair, yet the seeing without
                  > sight, quite uncommon indeed.

                  Yes, I agree.

                  > Jason: I suppose this non-sense makes sense as well.
                  > Why then does it seem to me that no one is free from
                  > the truth that grabs, so to speak? Why does it seem
                  > more so that there is much attempting to get away from
                  > the truth that has never let go of anyone, anywhere,
                  > at any time?

                  Sad, but true.

                  Well-said.

                  > I see the answers, yet you do much better
                  > at making them sound nicer, to those that like nice
                  > sounding answers :)

                  Heh, heh.

                  Yup -- truth ain't pretty -- but therefore,
                  it ain't ugly, neither.

                  Peace upon you,
                  Dan
                • Jason Fishman
                  ... Jason: That s ok, no word has weight, serves any purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 4 8:40 PM
                    --- dan330033 <dan330033@...> wrote:
                    > Hi Jason --
                    >
                    > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                    > grandious
                    > > this seeing through can be.
                    >
                    > No, not at all.
                    >
                    > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                    >
                    > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                    > serves no purpose for anyone.

                    Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                    purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be
                    able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                    advocate this word "insight" as being misunderstood
                    entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn and
                    get's trampled on by identities that advocate words
                    just like insight, to say that those words have some
                    type of benifit over some other word, such as cabbage
                    or daring.

                    Peace and Love

                    __________________________________
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                    The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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                  • texasbg2000
                    ... This caught my eye Jason just as I am going to bed. no word has weight . I am sure you mean that people give weight to words or not. The power of the
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 4 9:11 PM
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                      <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- dan330033 <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                      > > Hi Jason --
                      > >
                      > > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                      > > grandious
                      > > > this seeing through can be.
                      > >
                      > > No, not at all.
                      > >
                      > > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                      > >
                      > > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                      > > serves no purpose for anyone.
                      >
                      > Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                      > purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be
                      > able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                      > advocate this word "insight" as being misunderstood
                      > entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn and
                      > get's trampled on by identities that advocate words
                      > just like insight, to say that those words have some
                      > type of benifit over some other word, such as cabbage
                      > or daring.
                      >
                      > Peace and Love

                      This caught my eye Jason just as I am going to bed. 'no word has'
                      weight'. I am sure you mean that people give weight to words or
                      not.

                      The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda rests on the power of
                      the word. Everyone is influenced against their will by words whether
                      they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by sellers. All you
                      have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you will be sick. Tell
                      yourself you are horney and you will be.

                      communication happens whether you want it or not. Words have power
                      even if the power is to create the illusion that they are powerless
                      which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak exists then
                      silence is also a message.

                      Love
                      Bobby G.
                    • Jason Fishman
                      ... Jason: Glad it caught your eye, catching an artisic eye is a good thing to me. Yes, that is what I mean. In seeing that catching your eye is a good thing
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 4 9:31 PM
                        --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        > Jason Fishman
                        > <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- dan330033 <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                        > > > Hi Jason --
                        > > >
                        > > > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                        > > > grandious
                        > > > > this seeing through can be.
                        > > >
                        > > > No, not at all.
                        > > >
                        > > > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                        > > >
                        > > > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                        > > > serves no purpose for anyone.
                        > >
                        > > Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                        > > purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will
                        > ever be
                        > > able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                        > > advocate this word "insight" as being
                        > misunderstood
                        > > entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn
                        > and
                        > > get's trampled on by identities that advocate
                        > words
                        > > just like insight, to say that those words have
                        > some
                        > > type of benifit over some other word, such as
                        > cabbage
                        > > or daring.
                        > >
                        > > Peace and Love
                        >
                        > This caught my eye Jason just as I am going to bed.
                        > 'no word has'
                        > weight'. I am sure you mean that people give weight
                        > to words or
                        > not.

                        Jason: Glad it caught your eye, catching an artisic
                        eye is a good thing to me. Yes, that is what I mean.
                        In seeing that catching your eye is a good thing I'm
                        adding weight to your words and it brings forth the
                        happy emotion of your artistic eye taking notice.

                        > The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda
                        > rests on the power of
                        > the word. Everyone is influenced against their will
                        > by words whether
                        > they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by
                        > sellers. All you
                        > have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you
                        > will be sick. Tell
                        > yourself you are horney and you will be.

                        Jason: Words are, as is the power of the elements
                        legendary (earth, wind, water, fire). Those that take
                        to the words as legendary are preyed apon as those
                        that will not swim in the water since they may drown,
                        fly in the sky for they may fall, climb a mountain as
                        to not be lost in it's height or bask in the warmth of
                        fire as to not get burned.

                        > communication happens whether you want it or not.

                        Jason: This is true for those that take a
                        communication as a happening. I would have to say that
                        there is nothing but communication in an infinite
                        amount forms, even when nothing is said. If this
                        communication is always occuring, when can it be said
                        that communication can not be a happening?

                        > Words have power
                        > even if the power is to create the illusion that
                        > they are powerless
                        > which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak
                        > exists then
                        > silence is also a message.

                        Jason: When the moment comes that words hold no edge
                        to an identity then it can be said that words have no
                        power. I can never maintain the edge of words, they
                        dull with each passing moment. What I can say is that
                        there is no power greater then lossing the edge of
                        words, just as the earth blocks the wind, water douses
                        the flames, etc. One will never remove oneself from
                        the cycle of power, as this cycle of power is the
                        perpetuation of all communication. One can only
                        observe and react throughout every conceived notion of
                        power.

                        > Love
                        > Bobby G.

                        Peace and Love to you Bobby.


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                      • texasbg2000
                        ... . ... yes we agree that the power of words diminish with understanding. Communication needs to be more powerful though. We need to come together more.
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 5 8:13 AM
                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                          <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                          .
                          >
                          > > The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda
                          > > rests on the power of
                          > > the word. Everyone is influenced against their will
                          > > by words whether
                          > > they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by
                          > > sellers. All you
                          > > have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you
                          > > will be sick. Tell
                          > > yourself you are horney and you will be.
                          >
                          > Jason: Words are, as is the power of the elements
                          > legendary (earth, wind, water, fire). Those that take
                          > to the words as legendary are preyed apon as those
                          > that will not swim in the water since they may drown,
                          > fly in the sky for they may fall, climb a mountain as
                          > to not be lost in it's height or bask in the warmth of
                          > fire as to not get burned.

                          >
                          > > communication happens whether you want it or not.
                          >
                          > Jason: This is true for those that take a
                          > communication as a happening. I would have to say that
                          > there is nothing but communication in an infinite
                          > amount forms, even when nothing is said. If this
                          > communication is always occuring, when can it be said
                          > that communication can not be a happening?
                          >
                          > > Words have power
                          > > even if the power is to create the illusion that
                          > > they are powerless
                          > > which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak
                          > > exists then
                          > > silence is also a message.
                          >
                          > Jason: When the moment comes that words hold no edge
                          > to an identity then it can be said that words have no
                          > power. I can never maintain the edge of words, they
                          > dull with each passing moment. What I can say is that
                          > there is no power greater then lossing the edge of
                          > words, just as the earth blocks the wind, water douses
                          > the flames, etc. One will never remove oneself from
                          > the cycle of power, as this cycle of power is the
                          > perpetuation of all communication. One can only
                          > observe and react throughout every conceived notion of
                          > power.
                          >
                          > Peace and Love to you Bobby.


                          yes we agree that the power of words diminish with understanding.
                          Communication needs to be more powerful though. We need to come
                          together more.
                          (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                          I have said before that we all on this board are very close together
                          in what we believe. There is an element of disagreement but we do
                          speak the same language.

                          Love
                          Bobby G.
                        • satkartar7
                          ... Bobby, you are beautiful! Love, Karta
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 5 8:18 AM
                            > >
                            > > > The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda
                            > > > rests on the power of
                            > > > the word. Everyone is influenced against their will
                            > > > by words whether
                            > > > they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by
                            > > > sellers. All you
                            > > > have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you
                            > > > will be sick. Tell
                            > > > yourself you are horney and you will be.
                            > >
                            > > Jason: Words are, as is the power of the elements
                            > > legendary (earth, wind, water, fire). Those that take
                            > > to the words as legendary are preyed apon as those
                            > > that will not swim in the water since they may drown,
                            > > fly in the sky for they may fall, climb a mountain as
                            > > to not be lost in it's height or bask in the warmth of
                            > > fire as to not get burned.
                            >
                            > >
                            > > > communication happens whether you want it or not.
                            > >
                            > > Jason: This is true for those that take a
                            > > communication as a happening. I would have to say that
                            > > there is nothing but communication in an infinite
                            > > amount forms, even when nothing is said. If this
                            > > communication is always occuring, when can it be said
                            > > that communication can not be a happening?
                            > >
                            > > > Words have power
                            > > > even if the power is to create the illusion that
                            > > > they are powerless
                            > > > which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak
                            > > > exists then
                            > > > silence is also a message.
                            > >
                            > > Jason: When the moment comes that words hold no edge
                            > > to an identity then it can be said that words have no
                            > > power. I can never maintain the edge of words, they
                            > > dull with each passing moment. What I can say is that
                            > > there is no power greater then lossing the edge of
                            > > words, just as the earth blocks the wind, water douses
                            > > the flames, etc. One will never remove oneself from
                            > > the cycle of power, as this cycle of power is the
                            > > perpetuation of all communication. One can only
                            > > observe and react throughout every conceived notion of
                            > > power.
                            > >
                            > > Peace and Love to you Bobby.
                            >
                            >
                            > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with understanding.
                            > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We need to come
                            > together more.

                            > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

                            Bobby, you are beautiful!

                            Love, Karta

                            > I have said before that we all on this board are very close together
                            > in what we believe. There is an element of disagreement but we do
                            > speak the same language.
                            >
                            > Love
                            > Bobby G.
                          • Jason Fishman
                            ... yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also defines our need to be apart. Not only this
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 5 3:23 PM
                              >
                              > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with
                              > understanding.
                              > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We
                              > need to come
                              > together more.
                              > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                              > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                              > I have said before that we all on this board are
                              > very close together
                              > in what we believe. There is an element of
                              > disagreement but we do
                              > speak the same language.
                              >
                              > Love
                              > Bobby G.

                              yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must
                              reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also
                              defines our need to be apart. Not only this board, but
                              all places in every corner of the universe is this
                              closeness as much a key as this apartness appears to
                              be.

                              It also seems to me that those folks that make claims
                              of expansion of mind are laking greatly in character.
                              That what the percieved prize of enlightment or some
                              state of realization holds a key to some great power,
                              has seemed to only make some heads swell. This is also
                              unfortunate. No one can nor ever will be able to make
                              any claim stating a place above or below anyone, not
                              even for a moment. Those claims fall on deaf ears to
                              those that have heard those words and give no words
                              meanings that hold weight, nor actions that move in
                              and out of states to be more or less powerful then
                              non-realizations. This is the key to apartness and is
                              just as much an illusion as two comming together.

                              Peace and Love

                              __________________________________
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                              The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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                            • dan330033
                              ... I agree, that was very daring of you, my cabbage. Now, I m steaming, and my glasses are fogged. My insight is nowhere in sight. Luckily, I can still hear
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 5 3:42 PM
                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                                <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- dan330033 <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                                > > Hi Jason --
                                > >
                                > > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                                > > grandious
                                > > > this seeing through can be.
                                > >
                                > > No, not at all.
                                > >
                                > > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                                > >
                                > > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                                > > serves no purpose for anyone.
                                >
                                > Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                                > purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be
                                > able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                                > advocate this word "insight" as being misunderstood
                                > entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn and
                                > get's trampled on by identities that advocate words
                                > just like insight, to say that those words have some
                                > type of benifit over some other word, such as cabbage
                                > or daring.
                                >
                                > Peace and Love

                                I agree, that was very daring of you,
                                my cabbage.

                                Now, I'm steaming, and my glasses are
                                fogged.

                                My insight is nowhere in sight.

                                Luckily, I can still hear you with my
                                cauliflower ear.

                                I believe this insight turns everything inside
                                out, while allowing it all to remain
                                exactly as it is.

                                Look!

                                Nothing up my sleeve,

                                Oops -- wrong sleeve,
                                Dan
                              • texasbg2000
                                ... Hi Jason: I don t know what you mean, but I meant the closeness in philosophy and terminology. In cancer research the virologists argue with the
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 5 4:48 PM
                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                                  <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with
                                  > > understanding.
                                  > > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We
                                  > > need to come
                                  > > together more.
                                  > > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                  > > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                  > > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                  > > very close together
                                  > > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                  > > disagreement but we do
                                  > > speak the same language.
                                  > >
                                  > > Love
                                  > > Bobby G.
                                  >
                                  > yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must
                                  > reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also
                                  > defines our need to be apart. Not only this board, but
                                  > all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                  > closeness as much a key as this apartness appears to
                                  > be.

                                  Hi Jason:

                                  I don't know what you mean, but I meant the closeness in philosophy
                                  and terminology. In cancer research the virologists argue with the
                                  immunologists about which is the most fruitful approach to a cure.
                                  But they know what the other is talking about. They would both shun
                                  me if I tried to join in a high level conversation. A fundamentalist
                                  Christian or Hari Krisna comes on and we look askance. That is what
                                  I meant, we are virtually the same against the hordes of ...
                                  ignorant, infidels, heathens, rednecks and all management level
                                  people.:o)

                                  >
                                  > It also seems to me that those folks that make claims
                                  > of expansion of mind are laking greatly in character.
                                  > That what the percieved prize of enlightment or some
                                  > state of realization holds a key to some great power,
                                  > has seemed to only make some heads swell. This is also
                                  > unfortunate. No one can nor ever will be able to make
                                  > any claim stating a place above or below anyone, not
                                  > even for a moment. Those claims fall on deaf ears to
                                  > those that have heard those words and give no words
                                  > meanings that hold weight, nor actions that move in
                                  > and out of states to be more or less powerful then
                                  > non-realizations. This is the key to apartness and is
                                  > just as much an illusion as two comming together.

                                  I don't think an idea qualifies the real person. It is a
                                  characteristic of some part of the personality of that person. That
                                  characteristic can vanish in a moment. If you take a person in a
                                  position to influence others and disbelieve every idea they have
                                  because of their position you will exhibit prejudice. That does not
                                  mean you are prejudiced. That is taking a specific incident and
                                  making it generalized about that person. Cubby holing people.
                                  People are free by nature. When you say "they are" or "I am this",
                                  you really mean that is the nature of the act they committed and not
                                  a statement about them.

                                  But what happens? We look for and find that person to 'be' the way
                                  we have decided they 'are'. Love has to be seeing a person as a new
                                  thing each moment. Because they are. You can't love an image of
                                  that person. The real thing is without attributes and the attributes
                                  you atribute to them is in your head and not inherent in them. The
                                  attributes in your head are blocks to your loving that person no
                                  matter what acts they are involved in.

                                  A person is lacking in character if they don't look at ideas without
                                  prejudice. I have said many of the same things that Sivananda said
                                  because he was one of the great proponents of Raja Yoga and I came up
                                  through the same tradition for thirty years. I know what he means in
                                  his statements and he is correct according to my own experience.

                                  Here is the kick in the ass, Jason. You don't care whether I believe
                                  him from my own experience, do you? You only really care what you
                                  think of him.

                                  Love
                                  Bobby G.
                                • satkartar7
                                  ... Jason, looks like you are coming out of being brainwashed and see your friend Judi clearer Karta
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 5 6:53 PM
                                    Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with
                                    > > understanding.
                                    > > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We
                                    > > need to come
                                    > > together more.
                                    > > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                    > > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                    > > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                    > > very close together
                                    > > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                    > > disagreement but we do
                                    > > speak the same language.
                                    > >
                                    > > Love
                                    > > Bobby G.
                                    >
                                    > yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must
                                    > reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also
                                    > defines our need to be apart. Not only this board, but
                                    > all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                    > closeness as much a key as this apartness appears to
                                    > be.
                                    >
                                    > It also seems to me that those folks that make claims
                                    > of expansion of mind are laking greatly in character.
                                    > That what the percieved prize of enlightment or some
                                    > state of realization holds a key to some great power,
                                    > has seemed to only make some heads swell.



                                    Jason, looks like you are coming out
                                    of being brainwashed and see your
                                    friend Judi clearer



                                    Karta

                                    >This is also
                                    > unfortunate. No one can nor ever will be able to make
                                    > any claim stating a place above or below anyone, not
                                    > even for a moment. Those claims fall on deaf ears to
                                    > those that have heard those words and give no words
                                    > meanings that hold weight, nor actions that move in
                                    > and out of states to be more or less powerful then
                                    > non-realizations. This is the key to apartness and is
                                    > just as much an illusion as two comming together.
                                    >
                                    > Peace and Love
                                    >
                                    > __________________________________
                                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                                    > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                                    > http://search.yahoo.com
                                  • Jason Fishman
                                    ... Jason: What I mean Bobby is there is no us against anyone/thing, regardless of knowledge. My son who is 10 years old can run me silly on a computer and
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 6 3:42 AM
                                      --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@...> wrote:
                                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                      > Jason Fishman
                                      > <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > yes we agree that the power of words diminish
                                      > with
                                      > > > understanding.
                                      > > > Communication needs to be more powerful though.
                                      > We
                                      > > > need to come
                                      > > > together more.
                                      > > > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                      > > > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                      > > > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                      > > > very close together
                                      > > > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                      > > > disagreement but we do
                                      > > > speak the same language.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Love
                                      > > > Bobby G.
                                      > >
                                      > > yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I
                                      > must
                                      > > reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it
                                      > also
                                      > > defines our need to be apart. Not only this board,
                                      > but
                                      > > all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                      > > closeness as much a key as this apartness appears
                                      > to
                                      > > be.
                                      >
                                      > Hi Jason:
                                      >
                                      > I don't know what you mean, but I meant the
                                      > closeness in philosophy
                                      > and terminology. In cancer research the virologists
                                      > argue with the
                                      > immunologists about which is the most fruitful
                                      > approach to a cure.
                                      > But they know what the other is talking about. They
                                      > would both shun
                                      > me if I tried to join in a high level conversation.
                                      > A fundamentalist
                                      > Christian or Hari Krisna comes on and we look
                                      > askance. That is what
                                      > I meant, we are virtually the same against the
                                      > hordes of ...
                                      > ignorant, infidels, heathens, rednecks and all
                                      > management level
                                      > people.:o)

                                      Jason: What I mean Bobby is there is no us against
                                      anyone/thing, regardless of knowledge. My son who is
                                      10 years old can run me silly on a computer and I've
                                      been working on computers since I was 12. This doesn't
                                      mean he "knows" a damn thing about how computers
                                      function, yet he has the knack of learning how to get
                                      it to work. Knowledge is a limiting as an book is to
                                      an illiterate.

                                      (snip)

                                      > I don't think an idea qualifies the real person. It
                                      > is a
                                      > characteristic of some part of the personality of
                                      > that person. That
                                      > characteristic can vanish in a moment. If you take
                                      > a person in a
                                      > position to influence others and disbelieve every
                                      > idea they have
                                      > because of their position you will exhibit
                                      > prejudice. That does not
                                      > mean you are prejudiced. That is taking a specific
                                      > incident and
                                      > making it generalized about that person. Cubby
                                      > holing people.
                                      > People are free by nature. When you say "they are"
                                      > or "I am this",
                                      > you really mean that is the nature of the act they
                                      > committed and not
                                      > a statement about them.

                                      Jason: The generalization that you speak of is where
                                      it's at. Too many people attach money to cleverness,
                                      words to intellegence, pictures to art. I'm not saying
                                      these cannot be viewed as postitive things, what I'm
                                      saying is that those that attach this to that are
                                      limiting themselves to this and that.

                                      > But what happens? We look for and find that person
                                      > to 'be' the way
                                      > we have decided they 'are'. Love has to be seeing a
                                      > person as a new
                                      > thing each moment. Because they are. You can't
                                      > love an image of
                                      > that person. The real thing is without attributes
                                      > and the attributes
                                      > you atribute to them is in your head and not
                                      > inherent in them. The
                                      > attributes in your head are blocks to your loving
                                      > that person no
                                      > matter what acts they are involved in.

                                      Jason: Yes, exactly.. This is you telling me to love a
                                      person (i.e. Swami). This is me telling you I already
                                      do, have and always will love you and all other
                                      persons for exact who they are. What I cannot
                                      comprehend any longer is the limit to loving a person
                                      for an image of who they are. That this love has an
                                      end, that I should be or could be seeing a person in
                                      some new light in order to do something called loving
                                      them. I'm not even sure where we are missing each
                                      other here.

                                      > A person is lacking in character if they don't look
                                      > at ideas without
                                      > prejudice.

                                      Jason: Naw, extreme prejudice makes perfect sense to
                                      me, if your going down the road of love/hate there is
                                      no two ways about it.

                                      I have said many of the same things that
                                      > Sivananda said
                                      > because he was one of the great proponents of Raja
                                      > Yoga and I came up
                                      > through the same tradition for thirty years. I know
                                      > what he means in
                                      > his statements and he is correct according to my own
                                      > experience.

                                      Jason: I don't remember saying a thing about what your
                                      experience tells you to understand from his words. As
                                      long as you attach experiences to a version of truth,
                                      then thats what ya got a personal truth. Truth isn't
                                      about a person.

                                      > Here is the kick in the ass, Jason. You don't care
                                      > whether I believe
                                      > him from my own experience, do you? You only really
                                      > care what you
                                      > think of him.

                                      Jason: Exactly! Perfectly stated. I don't care, not 1
                                      iota. Not in what I think about a him or a you or any
                                      belief that I could ever attach to a him or a you or
                                      an anyone. If I did care then I most certainly would
                                      be selfishly loving a him or a you or an anyone,
                                      simply because I care what a him or a you have to
                                      offer in your interpretations. Caring/not caring isn't
                                      going to amount to a hill of beans when I'm done with
                                      what you have to offer, so what you have to offer is
                                      limiting to a me being done with it. I think I'll
                                      stick without imposing limits on who I do love and
                                      care for, as if there was a choice to do otherwise for
                                      a me.

                                      > Love
                                      > Bobby G.
                                      >

                                      Thank you for this seeing truth discussion Bobby,
                                      Peace and Love


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