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Re: Work to do after Enlightenment

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  • satkartar7
    ... thank you Bob, I should memorise this Peace, Karta
    Message 1 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > We'll never know for sure because it is possible that there are others
      > whose followers, or they themselves never have "gone public", but the
      > Guru who may have had the greatest number of disciples who attained
      > Realization in the 20th Century was Swami Sivananda. He has left over
      > 350 books he authored that well demonstrate his first hand experience
      > and understanding of Enlightenment. But in his own eyes, he never saw
      > himself as something special. He would let his followers give him
      > flowers, pranam to him, sing his praises, and so on, as is the custom
      > in India. It was his habit to then go to his very humble room (he had
      > no Rolls Royces or Rolex's either), and hit himself on his back with
      > books while berating himself to himself with statements like "Who do
      > you think you are? You're just a sack of skin, filled with feces,
      > puss, urine, bile, etc" and other similar "beam me back down to earth,
      > Scotty" type statements. Why? Because he felt that all the glories
      > that he was showered with might divert him from his aim of helping
      > others. His whole life was one of service to others. He had been a
      > physician, and never stopped trying to heal the sick of body, mind,
      > emotions, or spirit. His entire teaching was summed up in the simple
      > formula "Be good. Do good." And the things he pointed to directly as
      > the greatest things to work on before and after Enlightenment were
      > compassion and humility. I am sharing this now because there is such a
      > tremendous amount of Guru bashing going on at various internet groups
      > and web sites. What I suggest is that if there is a judgement about a
      > Guru to be made, it should be made upon the criteria of "Are they
      > compassionate and humble? Are they teaching that and living that?",
      > and of course, the content of the wisdom they share. It should not be
      > about their looks, what they wear, or even if they have or don't have
      > Rolls Royces.
      > And if you do find peace when you meditate about them and what they
      > teach, they may very well be worth continuing to learn from. And if
      > you meditate about them or what they teach, and it takes your peace
      > away, they are not a Guru for you, and you should not squander any
      > more energy on them by trying to tear them down, get revenge, feeling
      > anger over what they do, and so on. Just be compassionate towards
      > them, and stop carrying them around by filling your mind with thoughts
      > about them, or letting your body get tense, or your emotions get
      > riled up. Those type things just feed into your feelings of
      > self-importance and take away your humility and compassion, and thus
      > stop your spiritual evolution in its tracks. Be compassionate to
      > yourself. Don't let others (even if they are Enlightened) actions
      > create waves in your inner ocean. And if they say or do something that
      > you take personally, take that as an opportunity to experience
      > humility. You know - the "Turn the other cheek" thing. Oh yeah, one
      > other thing - I'm not advocating beating yourself with books. When you
      > see yourself filling up with pride because of some received praise,
      > it's OK to just smile, accept it, and go on with the quest for more
      > humility and compassion in gentler ways:-)
      > Peace and blessings,
      > Bob


      thank you Bob, I should memorise
      this

      Peace, Karta
    • satkartar7
      ... Come off it pleeeeze Dan! you sound like that mutated oki when talking about stastes* etc THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN A *SATE* OK?` and some choses
      Message 2 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dan330033" <dan330033@y...> wrote:
        > As one great teacher said, about those seeking to get
        > into states and those offering them, "the blind
        > leading the blind."
        >
        > "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
        >
        > "Truth walked among them, but they knew it not."
        >
        > If Truth which is Life chooses you, you will know it
        > immediately -- or if not, one may
        > continue as a self with its images --
        > images of states to be in or out of, anti-gurus,
        > pro-gurus, guru-promoting, guru-bashing,
        > guru-evaluating in the right and wrong ways, and
        > techniques to be in favor of or against.
        >






        > Either Truth is the meditation that is doing you --
        > or you are trying to do meditation to have an
        > experience, to know something, to attain a realization ...
        >
        > The truth is right here, is not a drug or a state,
        > is not something familiar, is not an image to
        > which you have reactions pro or con.
        >

        Come off it pleeeeze Dan!

        you sound like that mutated oki when
        talking about "stastes* etc

        THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
        A *SATE*

        OK?`

        and some choses to work on refning it

        Karta

        > If Truth works through you, then there is only Truth --
        > not anything or anyone apart -- to be promoted, bashed,
        > to get into or out of a state --
        >
        > -- Dan
        >
        >
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
        > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > We'll never know for sure because it is possible that there are
        > others
        > > whose followers, or they themselves never have "gone public", but
        > the
        > > Guru who may have had the greatest number of disciples who attained
        > > Realization in the 20th Century was Swami Sivananda. He has left
        > over
        > > 350 books he authored that well demonstrate his first hand
        > experience
        > > and understanding of Enlightenment. But in his own eyes, he never
        > saw
        > > himself as something special. He would let his followers give him
        > > flowers, pranam to him, sing his praises, and so on, as is the
        > custom
        > > in India. It was his habit to then go to his very humble room (he
        > had
        > > no Rolls Royces or Rolex's either), and hit himself on his back with
        > > books while berating himself to himself with statements like "Who do
        > > you think you are? You're just a sack of skin, filled with feces,
        > > puss, urine, bile, etc" and other similar "beam me back down to
        > earth,
        > > Scotty" type statements. Why? Because he felt that all the glories
        > > that he was showered with might divert him from his aim of helping
        > > others. His whole life was one of service to others. He had been a
        > > physician, and never stopped trying to heal the sick of body, mind,
        > > emotions, or spirit. His entire teaching was summed up in the simple
        > > formula "Be good. Do good." And the things he pointed to directly as
        > > the greatest things to work on before and after Enlightenment were
        > > compassion and humility. I am sharing this now because there is
        > such a
        > > tremendous amount of Guru bashing going on at various internet
        > groups
        > > and web sites. What I suggest is that if there is a judgement about
        > a
        > > Guru to be made, it should be made upon the criteria of "Are they
        > > compassionate and humble? Are they teaching that and living that?",
        > > and of course, the content of the wisdom they share. It should not
        > be
        > > about their looks, what they wear, or even if they have or don't
        > have
        > > Rolls Royces.
        > > And if you do find peace when you meditate about them and what they
        > > teach, they may very well be worth continuing to learn from. And if
        > > you meditate about them or what they teach, and it takes your peace
        > > away, they are not a Guru for you, and you should not squander any
        > > more energy on them by trying to tear them down, get revenge,
        > feeling
        > > anger over what they do, and so on. Just be compassionate towards
        > > them, and stop carrying them around by filling your mind with
        > thoughts
        > > about them, or letting your body get tense, or your emotions get
        > > riled up. Those type things just feed into your feelings of
        > > self-importance and take away your humility and compassion, and thus
        > > stop your spiritual evolution in its tracks. Be compassionate to
        > > yourself. Don't let others (even if they are Enlightened) actions
        > > create waves in your inner ocean. And if they say or do something
        > that
        > > you take personally, take that as an opportunity to experience
        > > humility. You know - the "Turn the other cheek" thing. Oh yeah, one
        > > other thing - I'm not advocating beating yourself with books. When
        > you
        > > see yourself filling up with pride because of some received praise,
        > > it's OK to just smile, accept it, and go on with the quest for more
        > > humility and compassion in gentler ways:-)
        > > Peace and blessings,
        > > Bob
      • dan330033
        ... Karta - This is exactly why Gautama said life is suffering because of the going in and out of states of being. And you can work on going into your
        Message 3 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
          <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dan330033"
          <dan330033@y...> wrote:
          > > As one great teacher said, about those seeking to get
          > > into states and those offering them, "the blind
          > > leading the blind."
          > >
          > > "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
          > >
          > > "Truth walked among them, but they knew it not."
          > >
          > > If Truth which is Life chooses you, you will know it
          > > immediately -- or if not, one may
          > > continue as a self with its images --
          > > images of states to be in or out of, anti-gurus,
          > > pro-gurus, guru-promoting, guru-bashing,
          > > guru-evaluating in the right and wrong ways, and
          > > techniques to be in favor of or against.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > Either Truth is the meditation that is doing you --
          > > or you are trying to do meditation to have an
          > > experience, to know something, to attain a realization ...
          > >
          > > The truth is right here, is not a drug or a state,
          > > is not something familiar, is not an image to
          > > which you have reactions pro or con.
          > >
          >
          > Come off it pleeeeze Dan!
          >
          > you sound like that mutated oki when
          > talking about "stastes* etc
          >
          > THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
          > A *SATE*
          >
          > OK?`
          >
          > and some choses to work on refning it
          >
          > Karta

          Karta -

          This is exactly why Gautama said "life is suffering"
          because of the going in and out of states of being.

          And you can work on going into your desired states
          all you want -- that is nothing but your suffering.

          Gautama taught the end of suffering.

          It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
          and of the states of which that one goes in and out.

          Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
          going to like this news, and will find all kinds
          of ways to ignore and distort this truth if possible,
          so as to keep on with the same old investments,
          whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.

          -- Dan


          > > If Truth works through you, then there is only Truth --
          > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be promoted, bashed,
          > > to get into or out of a state --
          > >
          > > -- Dan
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
          medit8ionsociety
          > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > > We'll never know for sure because it is possible that there are
          > > others
          > > > whose followers, or they themselves never have "gone public",
          but
          > > the
          > > > Guru who may have had the greatest number of disciples who
          attained
          > > > Realization in the 20th Century was Swami Sivananda. He has
          left
          > > over
          > > > 350 books he authored that well demonstrate his first hand
          > > experience
          > > > and understanding of Enlightenment. But in his own eyes, he
          never
          > > saw
          > > > himself as something special. He would let his followers give
          him
          > > > flowers, pranam to him, sing his praises, and so on, as is the
          > > custom
          > > > in India. It was his habit to then go to his very humble room
          (he
          > > had
          > > > no Rolls Royces or Rolex's either), and hit himself on his back
          with
          > > > books while berating himself to himself with statements
          like "Who do
          > > > you think you are? You're just a sack of skin, filled with
          feces,
          > > > puss, urine, bile, etc" and other similar "beam me back down to
          > > earth,
          > > > Scotty" type statements. Why? Because he felt that all the
          glories
          > > > that he was showered with might divert him from his aim of
          helping
          > > > others. His whole life was one of service to others. He had
          been a
          > > > physician, and never stopped trying to heal the sick of body,
          mind,
          > > > emotions, or spirit. His entire teaching was summed up in the
          simple
          > > > formula "Be good. Do good." And the things he pointed to
          directly as
          > > > the greatest things to work on before and after Enlightenment
          were
          > > > compassion and humility. I am sharing this now because there is
          > > such a
          > > > tremendous amount of Guru bashing going on at various internet
          > > groups
          > > > and web sites. What I suggest is that if there is a judgement
          about
          > > a
          > > > Guru to be made, it should be made upon the criteria of "Are
          they
          > > > compassionate and humble? Are they teaching that and living
          that?",
          > > > and of course, the content of the wisdom they share. It should
          not
          > > be
          > > > about their looks, what they wear, or even if they have or
          don't
          > > have
          > > > Rolls Royces.
          > > > And if you do find peace when you meditate about them and what
          they
          > > > teach, they may very well be worth continuing to learn from.
          And if
          > > > you meditate about them or what they teach, and it takes your
          peace
          > > > away, they are not a Guru for you, and you should not squander
          any
          > > > more energy on them by trying to tear them down, get revenge,
          > > feeling
          > > > anger over what they do, and so on. Just be compassionate
          towards
          > > > them, and stop carrying them around by filling your mind with
          > > thoughts
          > > > about them, or letting your body get tense, or your emotions get
          > > > riled up. Those type things just feed into your feelings of
          > > > self-importance and take away your humility and compassion, and
          thus
          > > > stop your spiritual evolution in its tracks. Be compassionate to
          > > > yourself. Don't let others (even if they are Enlightened)
          actions
          > > > create waves in your inner ocean. And if they say or do
          something
          > > that
          > > > you take personally, take that as an opportunity to experience
          > > > humility. You know - the "Turn the other cheek" thing. Oh yeah,
          one
          > > > other thing - I'm not advocating beating yourself with books.
          When
          > > you
          > > > see yourself filling up with pride because of some received
          praise,
          > > > it's OK to just smile, accept it, and go on with the quest for
          more
          > > > humility and compassion in gentler ways:-)
          > > > Peace and blessings,
          > > > Bob
        • Jason Fishman
          Howdy Karta, ... Jason: Dan can t come off it, he can t even get on it. ... Jason: Why then, isn t this as obvious as your stating it is? I just can t seem to
          Message 4 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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            Howdy Karta,

            > > Come off it pleeeeze Dan!

            Jason: Dan can't come off it, he can't even get on it.


            > > you sound like that mutated oki when
            > > talking about "stastes* etc
            > >
            > > THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
            > > A *SATE*
            > >
            > > OK?`

            Jason: Why then, isn't this as obvious as your stating
            it is? I just can't seem to figure out an arguement
            that is presented..

            > > and some choses to work on refning it

            Jason: Very good, this refinement sounds like fun!

            > > Karta
            >
            > Karta -

            Howdy over there Dan,

            > This is exactly why Gautama said "life is suffering"
            > because of the going in and out of states of
            > being.

            Jason: Funny, I'm certain I like to suffer :)

            > And you can work on going into your desired states
            > all you want -- that is nothing but your
            > suffering.

            Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on the
            commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
            commings and goings are beginings and endings
            perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer. In
            this sense there is no begining or ending.

            > Gautama taught the end of suffering.

            Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over. When it
            does end we won't know about it.

            > It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
            > and of the states of which that one goes in and
            > out.

            Jason: HaHa!

            > Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
            > going to like this news, and will find all kinds
            > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
            > possible,
            > so as to keep on with the same old investments,
            > whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.

            Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in this
            union. I think what is obvious here is to notice that
            since we all are comers and goers, this being
            dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a union.
            Then the in and out states can be seen and enjoyed.


            > > > If Truth works through you, then there is only
            > Truth --
            > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
            > promoted, bashed,
            > > > to get into or out of a state --

            Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we would
            all be within the parameters of only this truth (of
            course there isn't only truth since truth would have
            no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire to
            know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating the
            comming and goings. I know what your saying about
            truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all our
            commings and goings.


            > > > -- Dan

            Peace and Love

            __________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
            http://search.yahoo.com
          • satkartar7
            ... Howdy!? oh did I hurt an oki? sorry I meant a cow not an oki Jason! one is ALWAYS coming in and out of states when you are having a diarreah *state*
            Message 5 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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              Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
              > Howdy Karta,

              Howdy!? oh did I hurt an oki?

              sorry I meant a cow not an oki

              <grin>

              Jason! one is ALWAYS coming in and
              out of states

              when you are having a diarreah *state*
              you will come out of it after
              taking a shit

              that is enough lecture for now

              meditate on this

              Love, Karta


              >
              > K: Come off it pleeeeze Dan!
              >
              > Jason: Dan can't come off it, he can't even get on it.
              >
              >
              > K: you sound like that mutated oki when
              > talking about "stastes* etc
              >
              > THERE IS NO LIFE WITHOUT BEINFG IN
              > A *SATE*
              >
              > OK?`
              >
              > Jason: Why then, isn't this as obvious as your stating
              > it is? I just can't seem to figure out an arguement
              > that is presented..
              >
              > K: and some choses to work on refning it
              >
              > Jason: Very good, this refinement sounds like fun!
              >
              >
              > Howdy over there Dan,
              >
              > > This is exactly why Gautama said "life is suffering"
              > > because of the going in and out of states of
              > > being.
              >
              > Jason: Funny, I'm certain I like to suffer :)
              >
              > > And you can work on going into your desired states
              > > all you want -- that is nothing but your
              > > suffering.
              >
              > Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on the
              > commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
              > commings and goings are beginings and endings
              > perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer. In
              > this sense there is no begining or ending.
              >
              > > Gautama taught the end of suffering.
              >
              > Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over. When it
              > does end we won't know about it.
              >
              > > It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
              > > and of the states of which that one goes in and
              > > out.
              >
              > Jason: HaHa!
              >
              > > Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
              > > going to like this news, and will find all kinds
              > > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
              > > possible,
              > > so as to keep on with the same old investments,
              > > whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.
              >
              > Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in this
              > union. I think what is obvious here is to notice that
              > since we all are comers and goers, this being
              > dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a union.
              > Then the in and out states can be seen and enjoyed.
              >
              >
              > > > > If Truth works through you, then there is only
              > > Truth --
              > > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
              > > promoted, bashed,
              > > > > to get into or out of a state --
              >
              > Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we would
              > all be within the parameters of only this truth (of
              > course there isn't only truth since truth would have
              > no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire to
              > know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating the
              > comming and goings. I know what your saying about
              > truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all our
              > commings and goings.
              >
              >
              > > > > -- Dan
              >
              > Peace and Love
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
              > http://search.yahoo.com
            • dan330033
              Hi Jason -- Nice hearing from you. ... As I see it: as there is insight, there is no beginning or ending. with no insight, there is habitual acceptance of
              Message 6 of 20 , May 3, 2003
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                Hi Jason --

                Nice hearing from you.

                You wrote, in part:

                > Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on the
                > commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
                > commings and goings are beginings and endings
                > perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer. In
                > this sense there is no begining or ending.

                As I see it: as there is insight, there is no
                beginning or ending. with no insight, there is
                habitual acceptance of existing as one who comes in
                and goes out of states of being.

                Insight doesn't come into one, nor does one go
                into it. Realizing this noncoming, nongoing,
                one is then free to come and go, as you suggest.

                > > Gautama taught the end of suffering.
                >
                > Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over. When it
                > does end we won't know about it.

                The it that ends, is the it that has a beginning.

                The beginnningless, endless, being clarity itself,
                can never leave or enter.

                > > It is the end of the one going in and out of states,
                > > and of the states of which that one goes in and
                > > out.
                >
                > Jason: HaHa!

                Ho ho!

                > > Of course, the one going in and out of states, isn't
                > > going to like this news, and will find all kinds
                > > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
                > > possible,
                > > so as to keep on with the same old investments,
                > > whether dressed in spiritual or material clothes.
                >
                > Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in this
                > union. I think what is obvious here is to notice that
                > since we all are comers and goers, this being
                > dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a union.
                > Then the in and out states can be seen and enjoyed.

                What's enjoyed, for me, is the noncoming, nongoing,
                that allows comings and goings to be seen through,
                instantly -- and yes, day to day life of comings
                and goings, attaching and detaching, can be "suffered"
                in equanimity -- none of it is any problem --
                and none of it is exempted -- all of it, as is,
                is "this" ...

                > > > > If Truth works through you, then there is only
                > > Truth --
                > > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
                > > promoted, bashed,
                > > > > to get into or out of a state --
                >
                > Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we would
                > all be within the parameters of only this truth (of
                > course there isn't only truth since truth would have
                > no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire to
                > know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating the
                > comming and goings. I know what your saying about
                > truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all our
                > commings and goings.

                What you're saying seems valid to me.

                Although this truth has no exemptions, and nothing
                and no one is left out -- knowing this from
                deep in one's bones isn't the common state of
                affairs. People tend to protect a self that
                began and will end, which enters and leaves
                states, and which gains and loses. Realizing
                the truth that comes and goes not, none of the
                self-protection is bad, wrong or out of place --
                merely seen through. And seeing through is what
                truth is, when it "grabs" you, so to speak.
                When truth grabs you, you realize you are utterly
                subjugated from before the beginning.
                If truth doesn't grab you, you can't make yourself
                be grabbed. All you can do is enjoy your comings
                and goings in and out of states, until there aren't
                any, and it is clear there never have been for anyone,
                anywhere, at any time.

                Peace,
                Dan
              • Jason Fishman
                ... Jason: Always a pleasure to read your posts as well. ... Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn t it? So grandious this seeing through can be. ... Jason: makes
                Message 7 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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                  --- dan330033 <dan330033@...> wrote:
                  > Hi Jason --
                  >
                  > Nice hearing from you.

                  Jason: Always a pleasure to read your posts as well.

                  > You wrote, in part:
                  >
                  > > Jason: No one really has a choice but to work on
                  > the
                  > > commings and goings, it seems. So, in turn those
                  > > commings and goings are beginings and endings
                  > > perpetuated by the desire to be a comer and goer.
                  > In
                  > > this sense there is no begining or ending.
                  >
                  > As I see it: as there is insight, there is no
                  > beginning or ending. with no insight, there is
                  > habitual acceptance of existing as one who comes
                  > in
                  > and goes out of states of being.
                  >
                  > Insight doesn't come into one, nor does one go
                  > into it. Realizing this noncoming, nongoing,
                  > one is then free to come and go, as you suggest.

                  Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So grandious
                  this seeing through can be.

                  > > > Gautama taught the end of suffering.
                  > >
                  > > Jason: No end, only the belief that it's over.
                  > When it
                  > > does end we won't know about it.
                  >
                  > The it that ends, is the it that has a beginning.
                  >
                  > The beginnningless, endless, being clarity itself,
                  > can never leave or enter.

                  Jason: makes sense to me

                  > > > It is the end of the one going in and out of
                  > states,
                  > > > and of the states of which that one goes in
                  > and
                  > > > out.
                  > >
                  > > Jason: HaHa!
                  >
                  > Ho ho!

                  Jason: who who? ... He She!

                  > > > Of course, the one going in and out of states,
                  > isn't
                  > > > going to like this news, and will find all
                  > kinds
                  > > > of ways to ignore and distort this truth if
                  > > > possible,
                  > > > so as to keep on with the same old
                  > investments,
                  > > > whether dressed in spiritual or material
                  > clothes.
                  > >
                  > > Jason: A perfect definition of our seperation in
                  > this
                  > > union. I think what is obvious here is to notice
                  > that
                  > > since we all are comers and goers, this being
                  > > dreadfully obvious, in that instant there is a
                  > union.
                  > > Then the in and out states can be seen and
                  > enjoyed.
                  >
                  > What's enjoyed, for me, is the noncoming, nongoing,
                  > that allows comings and goings to be seen through,
                  > instantly -- and yes, day to day life of comings
                  > and goings, attaching and detaching, can be
                  > "suffered"
                  > in equanimity -- none of it is any problem --
                  > and none of it is exempted -- all of it, as is,
                  > is "this" ...

                  Jason: Yes, more sounding sensical. Even thought it
                  sounds like a problem, I would have to say the trouble
                  is there isn't much seeing comming.

                  > > > > > If Truth works through you, then there is
                  > only
                  > > > Truth --
                  > > > > > not anything or anyone apart -- to be
                  > > > promoted, bashed,
                  > > > > > to get into or out of a state --
                  > >
                  > > Jason: If there is only truth then I'm sure we
                  > would
                  > > all be within the parameters of only this truth
                  > (of
                  > > course there isn't only truth since truth would
                  > have
                  > > no parameters) Unfortunatly the ones that desire
                  > to
                  > > know this as truth are still the ones perpetuating
                  > the
                  > > comming and goings. I know what your saying about
                  > > truth here, I just enjoy giving us shit about all
                  > our
                  > > commings and goings.
                  >
                  > What you're saying seems valid to me.
                  >
                  > Although this truth has no exemptions, and nothing
                  > and no one is left out -- knowing this from
                  > deep in one's bones isn't the common state of
                  > affairs.

                  Jason: I tend to think that knowing is a much common
                  affair, I tend to think seeing isn't. The sight seen
                  or unseen is a common affair, yet the seeing without
                  sight, quite uncommon indeed.

                  > People tend to protect a self that
                  > began and will end, which enters and leaves
                  > states, and which gains and loses. Realizing
                  > the truth that comes and goes not, none of the
                  > self-protection is bad, wrong or out of place --
                  > merely seen through. And seeing through is what
                  > truth is, when it "grabs" you, so to speak.
                  > When truth grabs you, you realize you are utterly
                  > subjugated from before the beginning.
                  > If truth doesn't grab you, you can't make yourself
                  > be grabbed. All you can do is enjoy your comings
                  > and goings in and out of states, until there
                  > aren't
                  > any, and it is clear there never have been for
                  > anyone,
                  > anywhere, at any time.

                  Jason: I suppose this non-sense makes sense as well.
                  Why then does it seem to me that no one is free from
                  the truth that grabs, so to speak? Why does it seem
                  more so that there is much attempting to get away from
                  the truth that has never let go of anyone, anywhere,
                  at any time? I see the answers, yet you do much better
                  at making them sound nicer, to those that like nice
                  sounding answers :)


                  > Peace,
                  > Dan
                  >

                  Peace and Love


                  __________________________________
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                • dan330033
                  Hi Jason -- ... No, not at all. That s a misunderstanding of insight. It occupies no space, has no weight, serves no purpose for anyone. snip ... Me, too.
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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                    Hi Jason --

                    > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So grandious
                    > this seeing through can be.

                    No, not at all.

                    That's a misunderstanding of insight.

                    It occupies no space, has no weight,
                    serves no purpose for anyone.

                    snip

                    > Jason: makes sense to me

                    Me, too.

                    Also, "makes sense of me."

                    > Jason: I tend to think that knowing is a much common
                    > affair, I tend to think seeing isn't. The sight seen
                    > or unseen is a common affair, yet the seeing without
                    > sight, quite uncommon indeed.

                    Yes, I agree.

                    > Jason: I suppose this non-sense makes sense as well.
                    > Why then does it seem to me that no one is free from
                    > the truth that grabs, so to speak? Why does it seem
                    > more so that there is much attempting to get away from
                    > the truth that has never let go of anyone, anywhere,
                    > at any time?

                    Sad, but true.

                    Well-said.

                    > I see the answers, yet you do much better
                    > at making them sound nicer, to those that like nice
                    > sounding answers :)

                    Heh, heh.

                    Yup -- truth ain't pretty -- but therefore,
                    it ain't ugly, neither.

                    Peace upon you,
                    Dan
                  • Jason Fishman
                    ... Jason: That s ok, no word has weight, serves any purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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                      --- dan330033 <dan330033@...> wrote:
                      > Hi Jason --
                      >
                      > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                      > grandious
                      > > this seeing through can be.
                      >
                      > No, not at all.
                      >
                      > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                      >
                      > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                      > serves no purpose for anyone.

                      Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                      purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be
                      able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                      advocate this word "insight" as being misunderstood
                      entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn and
                      get's trampled on by identities that advocate words
                      just like insight, to say that those words have some
                      type of benifit over some other word, such as cabbage
                      or daring.

                      Peace and Love

                      __________________________________
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                    • texasbg2000
                      ... This caught my eye Jason just as I am going to bed. no word has weight . I am sure you mean that people give weight to words or not. The power of the
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                        <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- dan330033 <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                        > > Hi Jason --
                        > >
                        > > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                        > > grandious
                        > > > this seeing through can be.
                        > >
                        > > No, not at all.
                        > >
                        > > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                        > >
                        > > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                        > > serves no purpose for anyone.
                        >
                        > Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                        > purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be
                        > able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                        > advocate this word "insight" as being misunderstood
                        > entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn and
                        > get's trampled on by identities that advocate words
                        > just like insight, to say that those words have some
                        > type of benifit over some other word, such as cabbage
                        > or daring.
                        >
                        > Peace and Love

                        This caught my eye Jason just as I am going to bed. 'no word has'
                        weight'. I am sure you mean that people give weight to words or
                        not.

                        The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda rests on the power of
                        the word. Everyone is influenced against their will by words whether
                        they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by sellers. All you
                        have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you will be sick. Tell
                        yourself you are horney and you will be.

                        communication happens whether you want it or not. Words have power
                        even if the power is to create the illusion that they are powerless
                        which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak exists then
                        silence is also a message.

                        Love
                        Bobby G.
                      • Jason Fishman
                        ... Jason: Glad it caught your eye, catching an artisic eye is a good thing to me. Yes, that is what I mean. In seeing that catching your eye is a good thing
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 4, 2003
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                          --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@...> wrote:
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                          > Jason Fishman
                          > <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- dan330033 <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                          > > > Hi Jason --
                          > > >
                          > > > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                          > > > grandious
                          > > > > this seeing through can be.
                          > > >
                          > > > No, not at all.
                          > > >
                          > > > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                          > > >
                          > > > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                          > > > serves no purpose for anyone.
                          > >
                          > > Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                          > > purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will
                          > ever be
                          > > able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                          > > advocate this word "insight" as being
                          > misunderstood
                          > > entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn
                          > and
                          > > get's trampled on by identities that advocate
                          > words
                          > > just like insight, to say that those words have
                          > some
                          > > type of benifit over some other word, such as
                          > cabbage
                          > > or daring.
                          > >
                          > > Peace and Love
                          >
                          > This caught my eye Jason just as I am going to bed.
                          > 'no word has'
                          > weight'. I am sure you mean that people give weight
                          > to words or
                          > not.

                          Jason: Glad it caught your eye, catching an artisic
                          eye is a good thing to me. Yes, that is what I mean.
                          In seeing that catching your eye is a good thing I'm
                          adding weight to your words and it brings forth the
                          happy emotion of your artistic eye taking notice.

                          > The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda
                          > rests on the power of
                          > the word. Everyone is influenced against their will
                          > by words whether
                          > they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by
                          > sellers. All you
                          > have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you
                          > will be sick. Tell
                          > yourself you are horney and you will be.

                          Jason: Words are, as is the power of the elements
                          legendary (earth, wind, water, fire). Those that take
                          to the words as legendary are preyed apon as those
                          that will not swim in the water since they may drown,
                          fly in the sky for they may fall, climb a mountain as
                          to not be lost in it's height or bask in the warmth of
                          fire as to not get burned.

                          > communication happens whether you want it or not.

                          Jason: This is true for those that take a
                          communication as a happening. I would have to say that
                          there is nothing but communication in an infinite
                          amount forms, even when nothing is said. If this
                          communication is always occuring, when can it be said
                          that communication can not be a happening?

                          > Words have power
                          > even if the power is to create the illusion that
                          > they are powerless
                          > which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak
                          > exists then
                          > silence is also a message.

                          Jason: When the moment comes that words hold no edge
                          to an identity then it can be said that words have no
                          power. I can never maintain the edge of words, they
                          dull with each passing moment. What I can say is that
                          there is no power greater then lossing the edge of
                          words, just as the earth blocks the wind, water douses
                          the flames, etc. One will never remove oneself from
                          the cycle of power, as this cycle of power is the
                          perpetuation of all communication. One can only
                          observe and react throughout every conceived notion of
                          power.

                          > Love
                          > Bobby G.

                          Peace and Love to you Bobby.


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                        • texasbg2000
                          ... . ... yes we agree that the power of words diminish with understanding. Communication needs to be more powerful though. We need to come together more.
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 5, 2003
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                            <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:
                            .
                            >
                            > > The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda
                            > > rests on the power of
                            > > the word. Everyone is influenced against their will
                            > > by words whether
                            > > they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by
                            > > sellers. All you
                            > > have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you
                            > > will be sick. Tell
                            > > yourself you are horney and you will be.
                            >
                            > Jason: Words are, as is the power of the elements
                            > legendary (earth, wind, water, fire). Those that take
                            > to the words as legendary are preyed apon as those
                            > that will not swim in the water since they may drown,
                            > fly in the sky for they may fall, climb a mountain as
                            > to not be lost in it's height or bask in the warmth of
                            > fire as to not get burned.

                            >
                            > > communication happens whether you want it or not.
                            >
                            > Jason: This is true for those that take a
                            > communication as a happening. I would have to say that
                            > there is nothing but communication in an infinite
                            > amount forms, even when nothing is said. If this
                            > communication is always occuring, when can it be said
                            > that communication can not be a happening?
                            >
                            > > Words have power
                            > > even if the power is to create the illusion that
                            > > they are powerless
                            > > which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak
                            > > exists then
                            > > silence is also a message.
                            >
                            > Jason: When the moment comes that words hold no edge
                            > to an identity then it can be said that words have no
                            > power. I can never maintain the edge of words, they
                            > dull with each passing moment. What I can say is that
                            > there is no power greater then lossing the edge of
                            > words, just as the earth blocks the wind, water douses
                            > the flames, etc. One will never remove oneself from
                            > the cycle of power, as this cycle of power is the
                            > perpetuation of all communication. One can only
                            > observe and react throughout every conceived notion of
                            > power.
                            >
                            > Peace and Love to you Bobby.


                            yes we agree that the power of words diminish with understanding.
                            Communication needs to be more powerful though. We need to come
                            together more.
                            (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                            I have said before that we all on this board are very close together
                            in what we believe. There is an element of disagreement but we do
                            speak the same language.

                            Love
                            Bobby G.
                          • satkartar7
                            ... Bobby, you are beautiful! Love, Karta
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 5, 2003
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                              > >
                              > > > The power of the word is legendary. Propaganda
                              > > > rests on the power of
                              > > > the word. Everyone is influenced against their will
                              > > > by words whether
                              > > > they want to be or not. You are marketed daily by
                              > > > sellers. All you
                              > > > have to do is tell yourself you are sick and you
                              > > > will be sick. Tell
                              > > > yourself you are horney and you will be.
                              > >
                              > > Jason: Words are, as is the power of the elements
                              > > legendary (earth, wind, water, fire). Those that take
                              > > to the words as legendary are preyed apon as those
                              > > that will not swim in the water since they may drown,
                              > > fly in the sky for they may fall, climb a mountain as
                              > > to not be lost in it's height or bask in the warmth of
                              > > fire as to not get burned.
                              >
                              > >
                              > > > communication happens whether you want it or not.
                              > >
                              > > Jason: This is true for those that take a
                              > > communication as a happening. I would have to say that
                              > > there is nothing but communication in an infinite
                              > > amount forms, even when nothing is said. If this
                              > > communication is always occuring, when can it be said
                              > > that communication can not be a happening?
                              > >
                              > > > Words have power
                              > > > even if the power is to create the illusion that
                              > > > they are powerless
                              > > > which is what you wanted. When the ability to speak
                              > > > exists then
                              > > > silence is also a message.
                              > >
                              > > Jason: When the moment comes that words hold no edge
                              > > to an identity then it can be said that words have no
                              > > power. I can never maintain the edge of words, they
                              > > dull with each passing moment. What I can say is that
                              > > there is no power greater then lossing the edge of
                              > > words, just as the earth blocks the wind, water douses
                              > > the flames, etc. One will never remove oneself from
                              > > the cycle of power, as this cycle of power is the
                              > > perpetuation of all communication. One can only
                              > > observe and react throughout every conceived notion of
                              > > power.
                              > >
                              > > Peace and Love to you Bobby.
                              >
                              >
                              > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with understanding.
                              > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We need to come
                              > together more.

                              > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

                              Bobby, you are beautiful!

                              Love, Karta

                              > I have said before that we all on this board are very close together
                              > in what we believe. There is an element of disagreement but we do
                              > speak the same language.
                              >
                              > Love
                              > Bobby G.
                            • Jason Fishman
                              ... yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also defines our need to be apart. Not only this
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 5, 2003
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                                >
                                > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with
                                > understanding.
                                > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We
                                > need to come
                                > together more.
                                > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                > very close together
                                > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                > disagreement but we do
                                > speak the same language.
                                >
                                > Love
                                > Bobby G.

                                yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must
                                reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also
                                defines our need to be apart. Not only this board, but
                                all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                closeness as much a key as this apartness appears to
                                be.

                                It also seems to me that those folks that make claims
                                of expansion of mind are laking greatly in character.
                                That what the percieved prize of enlightment or some
                                state of realization holds a key to some great power,
                                has seemed to only make some heads swell. This is also
                                unfortunate. No one can nor ever will be able to make
                                any claim stating a place above or below anyone, not
                                even for a moment. Those claims fall on deaf ears to
                                those that have heard those words and give no words
                                meanings that hold weight, nor actions that move in
                                and out of states to be more or less powerful then
                                non-realizations. This is the key to apartness and is
                                just as much an illusion as two comming together.

                                Peace and Love

                                __________________________________
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                                The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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                              • dan330033
                                ... I agree, that was very daring of you, my cabbage. Now, I m steaming, and my glasses are fogged. My insight is nowhere in sight. Luckily, I can still hear
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 5, 2003
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                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                                  <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- dan330033 <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                                  > > Hi Jason --
                                  > >
                                  > > > Jason: Insight sounds grand, doesn't it? So
                                  > > grandious
                                  > > > this seeing through can be.
                                  > >
                                  > > No, not at all.
                                  > >
                                  > > That's a misunderstanding of insight.
                                  > >
                                  > > It occupies no space, has no weight,
                                  > > serves no purpose for anyone.
                                  >
                                  > Jason: That's ok, no word has weight, serves any
                                  > purpose for anyone anywhere at anytime or will ever be
                                  > able to be good or bad for anyone. I would have to
                                  > advocate this word "insight" as being misunderstood
                                  > entirely. I do believe that this insight is inborn and
                                  > get's trampled on by identities that advocate words
                                  > just like insight, to say that those words have some
                                  > type of benifit over some other word, such as cabbage
                                  > or daring.
                                  >
                                  > Peace and Love

                                  I agree, that was very daring of you,
                                  my cabbage.

                                  Now, I'm steaming, and my glasses are
                                  fogged.

                                  My insight is nowhere in sight.

                                  Luckily, I can still hear you with my
                                  cauliflower ear.

                                  I believe this insight turns everything inside
                                  out, while allowing it all to remain
                                  exactly as it is.

                                  Look!

                                  Nothing up my sleeve,

                                  Oops -- wrong sleeve,
                                  Dan
                                • texasbg2000
                                  ... Hi Jason: I don t know what you mean, but I meant the closeness in philosophy and terminology. In cancer research the virologists argue with the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 5, 2003
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                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                                    <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with
                                    > > understanding.
                                    > > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We
                                    > > need to come
                                    > > together more.
                                    > > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                    > > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                    > > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                    > > very close together
                                    > > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                    > > disagreement but we do
                                    > > speak the same language.
                                    > >
                                    > > Love
                                    > > Bobby G.
                                    >
                                    > yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must
                                    > reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also
                                    > defines our need to be apart. Not only this board, but
                                    > all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                    > closeness as much a key as this apartness appears to
                                    > be.

                                    Hi Jason:

                                    I don't know what you mean, but I meant the closeness in philosophy
                                    and terminology. In cancer research the virologists argue with the
                                    immunologists about which is the most fruitful approach to a cure.
                                    But they know what the other is talking about. They would both shun
                                    me if I tried to join in a high level conversation. A fundamentalist
                                    Christian or Hari Krisna comes on and we look askance. That is what
                                    I meant, we are virtually the same against the hordes of ...
                                    ignorant, infidels, heathens, rednecks and all management level
                                    people.:o)

                                    >
                                    > It also seems to me that those folks that make claims
                                    > of expansion of mind are laking greatly in character.
                                    > That what the percieved prize of enlightment or some
                                    > state of realization holds a key to some great power,
                                    > has seemed to only make some heads swell. This is also
                                    > unfortunate. No one can nor ever will be able to make
                                    > any claim stating a place above or below anyone, not
                                    > even for a moment. Those claims fall on deaf ears to
                                    > those that have heard those words and give no words
                                    > meanings that hold weight, nor actions that move in
                                    > and out of states to be more or less powerful then
                                    > non-realizations. This is the key to apartness and is
                                    > just as much an illusion as two comming together.

                                    I don't think an idea qualifies the real person. It is a
                                    characteristic of some part of the personality of that person. That
                                    characteristic can vanish in a moment. If you take a person in a
                                    position to influence others and disbelieve every idea they have
                                    because of their position you will exhibit prejudice. That does not
                                    mean you are prejudiced. That is taking a specific incident and
                                    making it generalized about that person. Cubby holing people.
                                    People are free by nature. When you say "they are" or "I am this",
                                    you really mean that is the nature of the act they committed and not
                                    a statement about them.

                                    But what happens? We look for and find that person to 'be' the way
                                    we have decided they 'are'. Love has to be seeing a person as a new
                                    thing each moment. Because they are. You can't love an image of
                                    that person. The real thing is without attributes and the attributes
                                    you atribute to them is in your head and not inherent in them. The
                                    attributes in your head are blocks to your loving that person no
                                    matter what acts they are involved in.

                                    A person is lacking in character if they don't look at ideas without
                                    prejudice. I have said many of the same things that Sivananda said
                                    because he was one of the great proponents of Raja Yoga and I came up
                                    through the same tradition for thirty years. I know what he means in
                                    his statements and he is correct according to my own experience.

                                    Here is the kick in the ass, Jason. You don't care whether I believe
                                    him from my own experience, do you? You only really care what you
                                    think of him.

                                    Love
                                    Bobby G.
                                  • satkartar7
                                    ... Jason, looks like you are coming out of being brainwashed and see your friend Judi clearer Karta
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 5, 2003
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                                      Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > yes we agree that the power of words diminish with
                                      > > understanding.
                                      > > Communication needs to be more powerful though. We
                                      > > need to come
                                      > > together more.
                                      > > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                      > > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                      > > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                      > > very close together
                                      > > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                      > > disagreement but we do
                                      > > speak the same language.
                                      > >
                                      > > Love
                                      > > Bobby G.
                                      >
                                      > yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I must
                                      > reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it also
                                      > defines our need to be apart. Not only this board, but
                                      > all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                      > closeness as much a key as this apartness appears to
                                      > be.
                                      >
                                      > It also seems to me that those folks that make claims
                                      > of expansion of mind are laking greatly in character.
                                      > That what the percieved prize of enlightment or some
                                      > state of realization holds a key to some great power,
                                      > has seemed to only make some heads swell.



                                      Jason, looks like you are coming out
                                      of being brainwashed and see your
                                      friend Judi clearer



                                      Karta

                                      >This is also
                                      > unfortunate. No one can nor ever will be able to make
                                      > any claim stating a place above or below anyone, not
                                      > even for a moment. Those claims fall on deaf ears to
                                      > those that have heard those words and give no words
                                      > meanings that hold weight, nor actions that move in
                                      > and out of states to be more or less powerful then
                                      > non-realizations. This is the key to apartness and is
                                      > just as much an illusion as two comming together.
                                      >
                                      > Peace and Love
                                      >
                                      > __________________________________
                                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                                      > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                                      > http://search.yahoo.com
                                    • Jason Fishman
                                      ... Jason: What I mean Bobby is there is no us against anyone/thing, regardless of knowledge. My son who is 10 years old can run me silly on a computer and
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 6, 2003
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                                        --- texasbg2000 <Bigbobgraham@...> wrote:
                                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                        > Jason Fishman
                                        > <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > yes we agree that the power of words diminish
                                        > with
                                        > > > understanding.
                                        > > > Communication needs to be more powerful though.
                                        > We
                                        > > > need to come
                                        > > > together more.
                                        > > > (((((((((((((((((((((((((Group
                                        > > > hug.)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
                                        > > > I have said before that we all on this board are
                                        > > > very close together
                                        > > > in what we believe. There is an element of
                                        > > > disagreement but we do
                                        > > > speak the same language.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Love
                                        > > > Bobby G.
                                        > >
                                        > > yes, Bobby I like what you say here. Although I
                                        > must
                                        > > reitterate the urgency of this closeness, as it
                                        > also
                                        > > defines our need to be apart. Not only this board,
                                        > but
                                        > > all places in every corner of the universe is this
                                        > > closeness as much a key as this apartness appears
                                        > to
                                        > > be.
                                        >
                                        > Hi Jason:
                                        >
                                        > I don't know what you mean, but I meant the
                                        > closeness in philosophy
                                        > and terminology. In cancer research the virologists
                                        > argue with the
                                        > immunologists about which is the most fruitful
                                        > approach to a cure.
                                        > But they know what the other is talking about. They
                                        > would both shun
                                        > me if I tried to join in a high level conversation.
                                        > A fundamentalist
                                        > Christian or Hari Krisna comes on and we look
                                        > askance. That is what
                                        > I meant, we are virtually the same against the
                                        > hordes of ...
                                        > ignorant, infidels, heathens, rednecks and all
                                        > management level
                                        > people.:o)

                                        Jason: What I mean Bobby is there is no us against
                                        anyone/thing, regardless of knowledge. My son who is
                                        10 years old can run me silly on a computer and I've
                                        been working on computers since I was 12. This doesn't
                                        mean he "knows" a damn thing about how computers
                                        function, yet he has the knack of learning how to get
                                        it to work. Knowledge is a limiting as an book is to
                                        an illiterate.

                                        (snip)

                                        > I don't think an idea qualifies the real person. It
                                        > is a
                                        > characteristic of some part of the personality of
                                        > that person. That
                                        > characteristic can vanish in a moment. If you take
                                        > a person in a
                                        > position to influence others and disbelieve every
                                        > idea they have
                                        > because of their position you will exhibit
                                        > prejudice. That does not
                                        > mean you are prejudiced. That is taking a specific
                                        > incident and
                                        > making it generalized about that person. Cubby
                                        > holing people.
                                        > People are free by nature. When you say "they are"
                                        > or "I am this",
                                        > you really mean that is the nature of the act they
                                        > committed and not
                                        > a statement about them.

                                        Jason: The generalization that you speak of is where
                                        it's at. Too many people attach money to cleverness,
                                        words to intellegence, pictures to art. I'm not saying
                                        these cannot be viewed as postitive things, what I'm
                                        saying is that those that attach this to that are
                                        limiting themselves to this and that.

                                        > But what happens? We look for and find that person
                                        > to 'be' the way
                                        > we have decided they 'are'. Love has to be seeing a
                                        > person as a new
                                        > thing each moment. Because they are. You can't
                                        > love an image of
                                        > that person. The real thing is without attributes
                                        > and the attributes
                                        > you atribute to them is in your head and not
                                        > inherent in them. The
                                        > attributes in your head are blocks to your loving
                                        > that person no
                                        > matter what acts they are involved in.

                                        Jason: Yes, exactly.. This is you telling me to love a
                                        person (i.e. Swami). This is me telling you I already
                                        do, have and always will love you and all other
                                        persons for exact who they are. What I cannot
                                        comprehend any longer is the limit to loving a person
                                        for an image of who they are. That this love has an
                                        end, that I should be or could be seeing a person in
                                        some new light in order to do something called loving
                                        them. I'm not even sure where we are missing each
                                        other here.

                                        > A person is lacking in character if they don't look
                                        > at ideas without
                                        > prejudice.

                                        Jason: Naw, extreme prejudice makes perfect sense to
                                        me, if your going down the road of love/hate there is
                                        no two ways about it.

                                        I have said many of the same things that
                                        > Sivananda said
                                        > because he was one of the great proponents of Raja
                                        > Yoga and I came up
                                        > through the same tradition for thirty years. I know
                                        > what he means in
                                        > his statements and he is correct according to my own
                                        > experience.

                                        Jason: I don't remember saying a thing about what your
                                        experience tells you to understand from his words. As
                                        long as you attach experiences to a version of truth,
                                        then thats what ya got a personal truth. Truth isn't
                                        about a person.

                                        > Here is the kick in the ass, Jason. You don't care
                                        > whether I believe
                                        > him from my own experience, do you? You only really
                                        > care what you
                                        > think of him.

                                        Jason: Exactly! Perfectly stated. I don't care, not 1
                                        iota. Not in what I think about a him or a you or any
                                        belief that I could ever attach to a him or a you or
                                        an anyone. If I did care then I most certainly would
                                        be selfishly loving a him or a you or an anyone,
                                        simply because I care what a him or a you have to
                                        offer in your interpretations. Caring/not caring isn't
                                        going to amount to a hill of beans when I'm done with
                                        what you have to offer, so what you have to offer is
                                        limiting to a me being done with it. I think I'll
                                        stick without imposing limits on who I do love and
                                        care for, as if there was a choice to do otherwise for
                                        a me.

                                        > Love
                                        > Bobby G.
                                        >

                                        Thank you for this seeing truth discussion Bobby,
                                        Peace and Love


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