Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Question from Email about meditation vs hypnosis

Expand Messages
  • medit8ionsociety
    If someone could take time to answer some questions for me I would really appreciate your time. My questions are: What is the difference in Meditation and
    Message 1 of 9 , May 3, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      If someone could take time to answer some questions for me I would
      really appreciate your time. My questions are: What is the difference
      in Meditation and Hypnosis? What is the best way to decide on a
      technic?

      Thank you for your time.
    • texasbg2000
      ... difference ... This question touches on a pet project of mine after studying Raja Yoga. I have come too think of all learning as hypnosis. Teaching is
      Message 2 of 9 , May 3, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > If someone could take time to answer some questions for me I would
        > really appreciate your time. My questions are: What is the
        difference
        > in Meditation and Hypnosis? What is the best way to decide on a
        > technic?
        >
        > Thank you for your time.

        This question touches on a pet project of mine after studying Raja
        Yoga. I have come too think of all learning as hypnosis. Teaching
        is hypnotizing others.

        Hypnotizing someone means that they believe what is being put into
        them and act on it. Deep religious belief is an example. To change
        religions one must first stop belief in their current religion, just
        as no one can be hypnotized to do something against their nature
        (which would be the way they think they are).

        So my answer is that meditation is the opposite or the hypnotic state
        or even light hypnosis, because all ideas are rejected or one comes
        out of the meditation.

        Love
        Bobby G.
      • jodyrrr
        ... Meditation is the practice of mental clarity through observation and de-conditioning, although it may be argued that de-conditioning is another form of
        Message 3 of 9 , May 3, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
          <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > If someone could take time to answer some questions for me I would
          > really appreciate your time. My questions are: What is the difference
          > in Meditation and Hypnosis? What is the best way to decide on a
          > technic?
          >
          > Thank you for your time.

          Meditation is the practice of mental clarity through observation
          and de-conditioning, although it may be argued that de-conditioning
          is another form of conditioning.

          Hypnosis is an attempt to condition or re-condition the mind
          to acquire a particular habit, feeling, or belief, or to rid yourself
          of one or more of these.

          We hypnotize ourselves to learn new ways or reject old ones.
          We meditate to see though the one who learns and rejects, to
          see and know the truth of our own being.

          As far as technique, Vipassana is a good place to begin, imo.
          It allows for concentration by way of mindfulness, resulting in
          a deeper understanding on the level of persona, while seeming
          to help establish the clarity that is beyond it.
        • Gene Poole
          ... Hypnosis works by the means of the voice of the hypnotist being taken to be one s own internal voice, with which few know to argue. If I tell myself to
          Message 4 of 9 , May 3, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            medit8ionsociety <no_reply@y...> wrote:

            > If someone could take time to answer some questions for me I would
            > really appreciate your time. My questions are: What is the difference
            > in Meditation and Hypnosis? What is the best way to decide on a
            > technic?
            >
            > Thank you for your time.

            Hypnosis 'works' by the means of the voice of the
            hypnotist being taken to be one's own internal
            voice, with which few know to argue.

            If I tell myself to do something, I generally do it.

            Hypnotic 'commands' which are spoken properly,
            are taken as self talking to self.

            Of course, those who have discovered the reality
            of the internal conversation, who have learned to
            eavesdrop on the voices of the interior realm, may
            have also learned to 'call bullshit' on some of what
            is spoken.

            For some people, much of the internal conversation
            is comprised of threats, insults, and lies. If these are
            allowed to continue, life is one huge, clumsy, and painful
            compensation.

            Those whose internal conversation was programmed
            during an abusive childhood, are already desensitized
            to the linkage of name-calling to violent acts; such
            persons make excellent 'soldiers', thugs, or prison
            guards, and always fill the ranks of the xenophobic
            reactionaries such as the KKK, etc.

            If a person is so deeply programmed, and that programming
            is so debilitating as to justify descent to the bottom
            of the human heap, the internal voices are in total
            control; there is no room for creative choices. Such a
            person is thus a perfect subject for further hypnosis,
            as was proved by the US CIA project 'MK Ultra'.

            Meditation, Zen, Buddhism, LSD, sacred ethneogenic
            plants of all kinds (including Cannabis) are all distinctly
            'anti-hypnotic' in effect; A single dose of LSD can provoke
            a serious 'leak' in the unconscious, leading to a lifelong
            practice of self-checking and growing spiritual awareness.

            Our various cultures of dominance, abhor anti-hypnotic
            forces, for obvious reasons. The pain and suffering of
            captive humans will either be blamed upon a designated
            enemy, or will be seen as an internal problem by the
            individual who has for even a moment, broken through
            the veil of hypnotic commands issuing from the cultural
            kingpins.

            We have seen recently, just how effective violent internal
            dialog can be, as vast force was unleashed against a
            designated enemy, by just a few words spoken by the
            putative leader of our seething, wounded masses.

            And please do not forget the futility of "anti-hypnosis"
            hypnosis, which is in common use, to replace 'bad'
            contents of mind with 'good' contents. The only remedy
            for hypnosis, is to awaken from the induced trance.



            ==Gene Poole==

            As I count down from 10,
            you will approach the
            center of the cause of your
            pain; when I reach the number
            one, you will experience the
            reason for your pain.
          • Nina
            ... Oh, Gene, will you quit that? Sheesh.. signed, the one who experienced the reason for her pain, still laughing at that sneaky Gene, Nina
            Message 5 of 9 , May 3, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
              <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
              > As I count down from 10,
              > you will approach the
              > center of the cause of your
              > pain; when I reach the number
              > one, you will experience the
              > reason for your pain.

              Oh, Gene, will you quit that? Sheesh..

              signed,
              the one who experienced the reason for her pain,
              still laughing at that sneaky Gene,
              Nina
            • dan330033
              snip ... Dan: Your analysis seems flawed to me, Gene. The President is the leader of the armed forces, is designated commander-in-chief. The President sits at
              Message 6 of 9 , May 3, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                snip

                Gene:
                > We have seen recently, just how effective violent internal
                > dialog can be, as vast force was unleashed against a
                > designated enemy, by just a few words spoken by the
                > putative leader of our seething, wounded masses.

                Dan:
                Your analysis seems flawed to me, Gene.
                The President is the leader of the armed forces,
                is designated commander-in-chief.
                The President sits at the top of a hierarchical
                structure that is designed so that he can issue
                commands that will be followed by the armed forces.

                To attribute the results of that command to seething, wounded
                masses is to ignore many other aspects of the situation.
                For example there are billions upon billions of dollars
                invested in this hierarchy over time. Some of that
                structure involves hypnotic aspects of communication --
                but much of that structure involves very direct
                communication in terms of reward and punishment.
                Another example you leave out of your analysis
                are the very real effects of military hardware, which
                have evolved over centuries of use and counteruse.
                Force has real life effects which don't depend on hypnosis
                whatsoever. If your house is blown up by a bomb, this
                has nothing to do with you being hypnotized. Generally,
                force is unleashed to attain an objective -- for example,
                the strategic military value of toppling a regime that
                is hostile to US interests, signed a treaty which it
                didn't fulfill, is coercive, lacks support from neighboring
                countries, and which was seen as a valued and attainable
                military objective.

                In my anlalysis, the President issued a command in his
                role as commander-in-chief, which was aimed at achieving
                a military objective. That this objective is widely
                supported may have something to do with feelings of
                frustration and woundedness that are being directed
                outward -- but it also has much to do with global
                strategies for managing and controlling resources,
                and for attempting to control what hostile governments
                can do. Thus, what happened to Iraq is also a warning
                to other countries. This has less to do with hypnosis
                than it does with real life consequences.

                One may argue that strategies for control and countercontrol
                tend to escalate and will never result in the desired
                security. This is an argument with which I tend to agree.
                However, control and countercontrol measures occur because
                of witnessing real life consequences, as well as hypnotic
                messages about things like patriotism, security, preventing
                violation, and so on.

                To bring this topic back to meditation -- meditation is
                being awake with open eyes to real life situations,
                which includes being aware of hypnotic suggestion, but
                also includes being aware of the strategies people
                pursue to try to establish security for self based on
                what they've observed of reward and punishment.
                Meditation is the seeing through of self, which
                involves seeing through all relevant structures:
                internal communication, neurology, memory, and sensation.

                Peace,
                Dan



                > And please do not forget the futility of "anti-hypnosis"
                > hypnosis, which is in common use, to replace 'bad'
                > contents of mind with 'good' contents. The only remedy
                > for hypnosis, is to awaken from the induced trance.
                >
                >
                >
                > ==Gene Poole==
                >
                > As I count down from 10,
                > you will approach the
                > center of the cause of your
                > pain; when I reach the number
                > one, you will experience the
                > reason for your pain.
              • Gene Poole
                ... No, Dan... say it ain t so! But seriously, you points below, are well taken, and were deliberately not addressed by me in my posting. ... Indeed, there he
                Message 7 of 9 , May 3, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  "dan330033" <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                  > snip

                  > Gene:
                  > > We have seen recently, just how effective violent internal
                  > > dialog can be, as vast force was unleashed against a
                  > > designated enemy, by just a few words spoken by the
                  > > putative leader of our seething, wounded masses.
                  >
                  > Dan:
                  > Your analysis seems flawed to me, Gene.

                  No, Dan... say it ain't so!

                  But seriously, you points below, are
                  well taken, and were deliberately not
                  addressed by me in my posting.

                  > The President is the leader of the armed forces,
                  > is designated commander-in-chief.
                  > The President sits at the top of a hierarchical
                  > structure that is designed so that he can issue
                  > commands that will be followed by the armed forces.

                  Indeed, there he does sit, atop the totem pole.

                  > To attribute the results of that command to seething, wounded
                  > masses is to ignore many other aspects of the situation.

                  Yes, I deliberately ignored all of those aspects,
                  in order to make a strong point, or a point,
                  strongly.

                  > For example there are billions upon billions of dollars
                  > invested in this hierarchy over time. Some of that
                  > structure involves hypnotic aspects of communication --
                  > but much of that structure involves very direct
                  > communication in terms of reward and punishment.

                  Hmmm... yes, indeed... reward and punishment;
                  sounds a lot like conditioning, an enforced state
                  of compliance. No wonder though, that the
                  conditioned, suffer the 'Stockholm syndrome',
                  identifying with and supporting their captors.

                  > Another example you leave out of your analysis
                  > are the very real effects of military hardware, which
                  > have evolved over centuries of use and counteruse.
                  > Force has real life effects which don't depend on hypnosis
                  > whatsoever. If your house is blown up by a bomb, this
                  > has nothing to do with you being hypnotized.

                  No, but the guy who drops the bomb might
                  be hypnotized, like the guy who ordered him
                  to drop it, and the guys who originated the order,
                  right up to and including the top of the totem pole...
                  as strange as it might be to consider such.

                  > Generally,
                  > force is unleashed to attain an objective -- for example,
                  > the strategic military value of toppling a regime that
                  > is hostile to US interests, signed a treaty which it
                  > didn't fulfill, is coercive, lacks support from neighboring
                  > countries, and which was seen as a valued and attainable
                  > military objective.

                  Sure thing... nothing new about international
                  skulldudgery, dishonesty, lack of integrity, etc...

                  Yet, the whole issue that you bring, is not ordained,
                  it is decided by mere mortals. And mortals are renowned
                  for their manipulative ways...

                  > In my anlalysis, the President issued a command in his
                  > role as commander-in-chief, which was aimed at achieving
                  > a military objective. That this objective is widely
                  > supported may have something to do with feelings of
                  > frustration and woundedness that are being directed
                  > outward -- but it also has much to do with global
                  > strategies for managing and controlling resources,
                  > and for attempting to control what hostile governments
                  > can do.

                  Yes, global strategies, especially for final consolidation
                  of power, into the hands of a very few human beans.

                  But not to worry... smaller government is better, and
                  what government is smaller, than that by one man?

                  > Thus, what happened to Iraq is also a warning
                  > to other countries. This has less to do with hypnosis
                  > than it does with real life consequences.

                  In that regard, hypnosis is probably a welcome
                  refuge, from the realization of real life consequences.


                  > One may argue that strategies for control and countercontrol
                  > tend to escalate and will never result in the desired
                  > security. This is an argument with which I tend to agree.
                  > However, control and countercontrol measures occur because
                  > of witnessing real life consequences, as well as hypnotic
                  > messages about things like patriotism, security, preventing
                  > violation, and so on.

                  Well stated.

                  > To bring this topic back to meditation -- meditation is
                  > being awake with open eyes to real life situations,
                  > which includes being aware of hypnotic suggestion, but
                  > also includes being aware of the strategies people
                  > pursue to try to establish security for self based on
                  > what they've observed of reward and punishment.
                  > Meditation is the seeing through of self, which
                  > involves seeing through all relevant structures:
                  > internal communication, neurology, memory, and sensation.
                  >
                  > Peace,
                  > Dan

                  Thank you, Dan.

                  ==GP==


                  > > And please do not forget the futility of "anti-hypnosis"
                  > > hypnosis, which is in common use, to replace 'bad'
                  > > contents of mind with 'good' contents. The only remedy
                  > > for hypnosis, is to awaken from the induced trance.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ==Gene Poole==
                  > >
                  > > As I count down from 10,
                  > > you will approach the
                  > > center of the cause of your
                  > > pain; when I reach the number
                  > > one, you will experience the
                  > > reason for your pain.
                • dan330033
                  Hi Gene -- ... heh, heh ... Okay -- that makes sense. And understanding hypnotic aspects of communication is worthwhile, and making a strong point about that
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 4, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Gene --

                    > > Dan:
                    > > Your analysis seems flawed to me, Gene.
                    >
                    > No, Dan... say it ain't so!

                    heh, heh

                    > But seriously, you points below, are
                    > well taken, and were deliberately not
                    > addressed by me in my posting.

                    Okay -- that makes sense. And understanding
                    hypnotic aspects of communication is worthwhile,
                    and making a strong point about that seems valid to me.

                    > > The President is the leader of the armed forces,
                    > > is designated commander-in-chief.
                    > > The President sits at the top of a hierarchical
                    > > structure that is designed so that he can issue
                    > > commands that will be followed by the armed forces.
                    >
                    > Indeed, there he does sit, atop the totem pole.

                    Or flying in the fighter jet, as the case may be.

                    > > To attribute the results of that command to seething, wounded
                    > > masses is to ignore many other aspects of the situation.
                    >
                    > Yes, I deliberately ignored all of those aspects,
                    > in order to make a strong point, or a point,
                    > strongly.

                    O.K.

                    > > For example there are billions upon billions of dollars
                    > > invested in this hierarchy over time. Some of that
                    > > structure involves hypnotic aspects of communication --
                    > > but much of that structure involves very direct
                    > > communication in terms of reward and punishment.
                    >
                    > Hmmm... yes, indeed... reward and punishment;
                    > sounds a lot like conditioning, an enforced state
                    > of compliance.

                    Yes. Dynamics of compliance by force run throughout
                    all cultures I've studied, in various ways --
                    from the primitive through the so-called modern
                    or advanced. For example, rights of passage,
                    body mutilations, physical fighting or coercion --
                    exist not only in Western societies, but Eastern,
                    Southern, and Northern, old and new.

                    So, there's something obviously very deep-seated to
                    this. It's observed in the animal kingdom as well.

                    > No wonder though, that the
                    > conditioned, suffer the 'Stockholm syndrome',
                    > identifying with and supporting their captors.

                    Yes, and while this dynamic plays a part in hypnosis,
                    I'd argue that it plays a part in real-life survival
                    as well - is biologically programmed because those
                    without that program have largely died out over time,
                    particularly as weapons became more sophisticated,
                    easier for the strong to have the weak who expressed
                    too much resistance, be eliminated.

                    > > Another example you leave out of your analysis
                    > > are the very real effects of military hardware, which
                    > > have evolved over centuries of use and counteruse.
                    > > Force has real life effects which don't depend on hypnosis
                    > > whatsoever. If your house is blown up by a bomb, this
                    > > has nothing to do with you being hypnotized.
                    >
                    > No, but the guy who drops the bomb might
                    > be hypnotized, like the guy who ordered him
                    > to drop it, and the guys who originated the order,
                    > right up to and including the top of the totem pole...
                    > as strange as it might be to consider such.

                    Well, one can argue that accepting the consensus worldview
                    as reality, or even the images produced by the nervous
                    system as reality, is "hypnosis" if one takes a very
                    broad view, that any conditioned image taken as reality
                    is a hypnotic state.

                    In which case, the only nonhypnotic state is "being awake"
                    although that is not how hypnosis is generally construed
                    in the "mainstream."

                    > > Generally,
                    > > force is unleashed to attain an objective -- for example,
                    > > the strategic military value of toppling a regime that
                    > > is hostile to US interests, signed a treaty which it
                    > > didn't fulfill, is coercive, lacks support from neighboring
                    > > countries, and which was seen as a valued and attainable
                    > > military objective.
                    >
                    > Sure thing... nothing new about international
                    > skulldudgery, dishonesty, lack of integrity, etc...
                    >
                    > Yet, the whole issue that you bring, is not ordained,
                    > it is decided by mere mortals. And mortals are renowned
                    > for their manipulative ways...

                    Well, construing worldview as something decided by mortals,
                    leaves out of the picture that decision-making by mortals,
                    *is* an aspect of a worldview image -- hence is a production
                    of a state of hypnosis ...

                    > > In my anlalysis, the President issued a command in his
                    > > role as commander-in-chief, which was aimed at achieving
                    > > a military objective. That this objective is widely
                    > > supported may have something to do with feelings of
                    > > frustration and woundedness that are being directed
                    > > outward -- but it also has much to do with global
                    > > strategies for managing and controlling resources,
                    > > and for attempting to control what hostile governments
                    > > can do.
                    >
                    > Yes, global strategies, especially for final consolidation
                    > of power, into the hands of a very few human beans.

                    Yes. The way that power over others functions, is an assumption
                    that generates hierarchy, and includes the use of force,
                    as well as other reinforcements -- such as provision of
                    salary -- in more ancient times, provision of water, wine,
                    food, clothes, and shells.

                    > But not to worry... smaller government is better, and
                    > what government is smaller, than that by one man?

                    That by no man?


                    > > Thus, what happened to Iraq is also a warning
                    > > to other countries. This has less to do with hypnosis
                    > > than it does with real life consequences.
                    >
                    > In that regard, hypnosis is probably a welcome
                    > refuge, from the realization of real life consequences.

                    True.

                    Many seek out trance states as an alternative, no doubt.

                    Because there's a reason that they say if it's too pretty,
                    it ain't reality, or if it's too easy, or too good.

                    >
                    > > One may argue that strategies for control and countercontrol
                    > > tend to escalate and will never result in the desired
                    > > security. This is an argument with which I tend to agree.
                    > > However, control and countercontrol measures occur because
                    > > of witnessing real life consequences, as well as hypnotic
                    > > messages about things like patriotism, security, preventing
                    > > violation, and so on.
                    >
                    > Well stated.
                    >
                    > > To bring this topic back to meditation -- meditation is
                    > > being awake with open eyes to real life situations,
                    > > which includes being aware of hypnotic suggestion, but
                    > > also includes being aware of the strategies people
                    > > pursue to try to establish security for self based on
                    > > what they've observed of reward and punishment.
                    > > Meditation is the seeing through of self, which
                    > > involves seeing through all relevant structures:
                    > > internal communication, neurology, memory, and sensation.
                    > >
                    > > Peace,
                    > > Dan
                    >
                    > Thank you, Dan.

                    And thank you, too, Gene.

                    I appreciate the thoughtful way you interact
                    with me.

                    >
                    > > > And please do not forget the futility of "anti-hypnosis"
                    > > > hypnosis, which is in common use, to replace 'bad'
                    > > > contents of mind with 'good' contents. The only remedy
                    > > > for hypnosis, is to awaken from the induced trance.

                    Absolutely!

                    I couldn't agree more.

                    And that is why pain, hurt, tension, sorrow, doubt,
                    are not to be avoided, discounted or
                    supressed by so-called meditation.

                    Supression is not what I consider meditation to
                    be, rather the waking from the world-view.
                    So not making of meditation a world-view,
                    but to awaken from world-view.

                    And the retreat into accepting the conditioned
                    reality as the basis of truth, is indeed a flight
                    from what it is a refuge from -- anxiety, doubt,
                    aloneness, vulnerability ...

                    Which will inevitably come up, and need to be accepted
                    and understood, if one is to move through these
                    states into/as the stateless being.

                    > > >
                    > > > ==Gene Poole==
                    > > >
                    > > > As I count down from 10,
                    > > > you will approach the
                    > > > center of the cause of your
                    > > > pain; when I reach the number
                    > > > one, you will experience the
                    > > > reason for your pain.

                    Yes, that's a nice addendum.

                    Yet, one can only know this and be this,
                    when there is readiness, not when a
                    person reaches a number.

                    Readiness having much to do with disgust
                    at the repetition of the familiar,
                    leading always to the familiar structures --
                    such as the hierarchy of power and control
                    we are discussing, but also to the inevitable
                    flight into desired states, which always
                    alternate with undesired states, and a being
                    which is repetitively reconsitituted as a
                    center for experiencing them.

                    Peace,
                    Dan
                  • Jason Fishman
                    To touch on only this... Gene: But not to worry... smaller government is better, and ... Dan: That by no man? Jason: I would have to say that those mere
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 4, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      To touch on only this...

                      Gene: But not to worry... smaller government is
                      better, and
                      > what government is smaller, than that by one man?

                      Dan: That by no man?

                      Jason: I would have to say that those mere mortals act
                      most often in defense of one name, "God", as
                      hypnotized. This god that creates this all, as to say
                      those mere mortals should take anothers life, as other
                      mere mortals have forsaken his name, as shown in his
                      honor. Much is the way of the sacrificial
                      contradiction.

                      What isn't taken into account is that no man has an
                      account. That life takes life to sustain life, that
                      the hiearchy is in and of itself its own begining and
                      ending. That these mere moratls decide whats a correct
                      behavior in life taking and whats incorrect.

                      Only if there is a moment when no life is taken for
                      the sustaining of the mere mortal, then those mere
                      mortals will be able to say that life is precious and
                      is maintained no longer by mere mortals. Much is the
                      way of the self-living-contradiction.

                      All the commings and goings have came and went as
                      quickly as commings and goings do to all those mere
                      mortals.

                      Peace and Love

                      __________________________________
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
                      http://search.yahoo.com
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.