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Re: Any relevance here? Dan

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  • dan330033
    Hi Jeff -- ... Judi took that post from her site, which of course involved a different context. That she placed that post here, I take as her intention to
    Message 1 of 72 , Apr 1, 2003
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      Hi Jeff --

      > Dan -
      >
      > I'm assuming that you were not opposed
      > to having this posted and I therefore
      > consider if appropriate to respond to
      > your comments, on this site...

      Judi took that post from her site, which of course
      involved a different context.

      That she placed that post here, I take as her
      intention to confront people here with what I
      said there.

      I have no objection to her doing that, although
      I didn't post that here because I thought it
      might be disruptive in some way, and I knew
      that Bob had some concerns about what he
      considers "distractions."

      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes" <
      > judirhodes@z...> wrote:
      > > No, does this have any relevance - a repost from the ranch list -
      > > from Dan -
      > >
      > >
      > > Not to mention the happy meditators who
      > > have to make sure you understand how realized and in bliss
      > > they are, how deep from the silence they are
      > > speaking, how really truly real is their realization --
      > > Just so you know that it's just like Ramana said,
      > > and how amazing it is to realize that it's
      > > just like he said -- and if you don't get that,
      > > you are going to get the subtle love darts
      > > intended to bring you down some notches -- every time.
      >
      > What you see as ego-centered peacocking,
      > happy meditators see as offering of a lively hope,
      > and our purpose is to serve as witnesses to the
      > beautiful truth that the past and present awakened,
      > enlightened and realized teachers offer, as
      > encouragement to those "on the road".

      Yes, there are always different perspectives of phenomena
      from different observers. And those observers are
      themselves phenomena.

      There is no "correct" or "incorrect" perspective in any ultimate
      sense.

      > The "love darts" are provoked by the
      > attributions that you, Judi and Jason post about
      > many of us happy meditators: accusations of fraud,
      > delusion, deceit and the litany of negativity
      > that comes from little or no direct contact with
      > those at whom you fire your own darts.

      How do you know that I am not a happy meditator?

      > It seems to me that you have no understanding of what
      > motivates a happy meditator.

      Why not -- I'm happy and I'm meditating.

      The return darts are
      > intended to counter false accusations and attributions
      > that seem to me to be attempts to undermine the
      > veracity and purpose of the happy meditators' offering,
      > and which potentially discourage those who seek
      > to find ways past the stress and discouragement
      > in their lives.

      Why not just continue to offer what you're offering
      and not worry about it?

      How can you be accused if you don't place yourself
      in the category of someone who fits that characterization?

      > Happy meditators offer reports
      > of rewards they found on the road they traveled.
      > And that is what we defend.

      I have no clue why defense is necessary.

      Why not just say whatever you have to say about
      whatever rewards you've enjoyed on whatever
      road you're on?

      > > Confronting people about self-satisfaction and
      > > smug bullshit is a losing proposition -- they
      > > will keep on with what keeps them feeling good
      > > about themselves, and stick it to ya in return --
      > > every time.
      >
      > What you see as self-satisfaction and smug bullshit,
      > happy meditators see as gratitude and an eagerness
      > to share the bounty of the treasure they have found
      > with all who ask about it.

      Jeff - the above is merely a general comment.
      There is nothing specific in it about any particular
      post or person.

      It strikes me as funny that you see yourself as
      the defender of happy meditators. There's something
      very humorous about that position.

      Well, let me just say that happy meditators meditating
      happily are simply another arising phenomena. No
      inherent good or bad to it, which is true of all other
      phenomena. Good and bad being relative terms, used
      in social contexts for different purposes.

      If there is happiness, then sadness has arisen as contrast.

      If there is an activity defined as meditation, then there
      is some other activity defined as not-meditation.

      All of these contrasts arise in nonseparation.

      Nothing is out of place, not happy meditators, sad
      meditators, happy nonmeditators, nor sad nonmeditators.

      > >
      > > It's remarkable how the same ploy gets played again
      > > and again and again ...
      > >
      > > That's all selves are is these ploys, so that's the last thing
      > > anyone is going to look into.
      > >
      > > The spiritual ploys somehow seem the worst of all, as
      > > bad as all the other ploys can be. There is something
      > > particularly nasty, vicious, and self-serving about
      > > the spiritualized self-ploys. I think it's because
      > > all the knives have to be covered up with lots
      > > of gooey love and wisdom.
      >
      > What you see as nasty, vicious and self-serving, happy
      > meditators see as selfness, loving, kind and caring service
      > to other people. Love and wisdom are not derisive or threatening
      terms
      > to happy meditators.

      Right you are. Love and wisdom are wonderful terms.
      They make me very happy.


      > > A favorite seems to be:
      > > It's fine with me to lose my self as long as I can
      > > tell everyone how deep from silence I'm speaking, or
      > > the amazing love bliss I now have, and we get
      > > to smugly congratulate and reinforce one another --
      > > and so on.
      >
      > What you see as self-aggrandizement, happy meditators
      > see as witnessing to the reality of a way of escape from
      > stress and confusion, which they speak to from experiential
      > knowledge. What you see as smug congratulations, happy
      > meditators see as positive and faith-building affirmations.

      Wow, you sure have lots of good things to say about us
      who are happy meditators.

      As a happy meditator, I'd like to say that I'm very
      pleased that you point out all these positive aspects.

      Not that we need it. I mean, after all, we already
      are meditating happily.

      > The view is toward those seeking a way out. To tell them
      > they are already out leaves the vast majority in despair
      > when what they hear from the advaita view is "this is all
      > there is, live with it." Happy meditators offer real world
      > efforts that precede grace.

      You misunderstand what I said.

      It's about breaking through despair, but not
      by trying to avoid it.

      In a larger picture, it's about breaking through
      conditionality, but not by trying to avoid
      conditions.

      You speak of happy meditating -- that is a condition.

      So, the question behind my post is: is one to remain
      satisfied with being a happy meditator, proclaiming
      that, defending it, justifying it -- or is that, too,
      transcended?

      And the pointing is to inquiry into self -- what is
      the self of the happy meditator -- what is its
      function -- what is the continuity of that image
      about ...?


      > > But to look into that "act" and see that it's just
      > > another version of self -- that would be to suffer
      > > a real loss ...
      > >
      > > And that's the last thing any of these self-proclaimed
      > > realizers living in contentment and bliss want ...
      > >
      > > The claim of a loss that made me a special realizer
      > > living deep in silent bliss love
      > > is so much easier to deal with,
      > > and then I get to keep the suffering and call
      > > it blissful silence ... what could be better?
      >
      > What you see as us happy meditators feeling like we
      > are "special realizers", is us happy meditators
      > jumping for joy for us anything-but-special people
      > having received a beautiful gift that ends the
      > suffering - mountains of suffering made into mole
      > hills, dust in the wind.

      There's no us and them, Jeff. Just ask Freyja.

      > Suffering succotash! Is that all you eat? Don't you
      > ever have a gooey dessert and get past all your
      > suffering?

      I just had a piece of unbelievable carrot cake.

      It didn't have any raisins in it, because the "birthday
      girl" doesn't like raisins. But it had lots of
      nuts, was plenty creamy and moist.

      -- Dan
    • devianandi
      ... i ... those ... and ... sourse...and ... solid ... stone ... further ... and ... yes, thank you very much for your compliments,it s niice when a window of
      Message 72 of 72 , Apr 2, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "freyjartist"
        <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Poole"
        > <gene_poole@q...> wrote:
        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi
        > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > what's wrong with being devious?
        > > >
        > > > it's just another activity of god, which is the only one here --

        > > > remember?
        > > >
        > > > no, i forgot but thanks for reminding me that in the beginning
        i
        > > > alone existed i was perfect and tranquil and then something
        > stirred
        > > > and i divided into two, then those two divided into two and
        those
        > > > into two and into two and into two untill there were millions
        and
        > > > trillions of particles of my sparkly light god energies
        > everywhere
        > > > moving further and further away from my center, the
        sourse...and
        > down
        > > > down down went all those particles of God energies until a
        solid
        > > > point was reached and that particle of God energy became a
        stone
        > and
        > > > the material universes were formed and since there was no
        further
        > > > down to go those particles of god started to go back up up up
        and
        > > > after millions and trillions of divirse forms of existence your
        > > > almost home, to your sourse, which is me
        > >
        > > Cool!
        > >
        > >
        > > ==GP==
        >
        > Yes! Way cool!
        >

        > F
        yes, thank you very much for your compliments,it's niice when a
        window of opportunity opens up and i get to goof around, you know
        evrytime i say something negative or hurtful it causes me pain..

        baba hari dass tells me to love God and love myself and i will see
        love everywhere...when i do this love god and love myself it really
        happens, i see love everywhere,,,but when i forget god and forget
        myself and look at negativity it's like that stone that catches all
        the mossss rolling down the hill,,,
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