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Doubting Jody

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  • Jeff Belyea
    By itself, an intriguing question, ...is your mind absolutely free from doubt? . But then, the monkeywrench of if...then and its presumptive logic gets
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 30, 2003
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      By itself, an intriguing question,
      "...is your mind absolutely
      free from doubt?".

      But then, the monkeywrench of
      "if...then" and its presumptive
      logic gets tossed in and ruins it.

      Why would freedom from doubt
      mean that one is omniscient?

      Freedom from doubt can mean
      that in one who has been graced
      with enlightened realization
      that there is no longer a search
      for objective truth, no need for
      certainty, because "certainty"
      is known. Clarity is known.
      And clarity has no questions.

      There is no emotional
      investment in outcome and all
      is accepted with equanimity,
      leaving no room for doubt.

      This would seem to be a
      meeting ground of the jnana
      and raja yogi's.

      Even Jesus shows up here, with
      "You shall know the truth and
      the truth shall set you free".

      My op ed would add, free from
      fear and doubt.

      Of course, this is on the
      inner plane and in the play
      of consciousness. In the
      relative world we may
      entertain a playful doubt
      about whether we can actually
      jump all the way over a big
      puddle without getting our
      new shoes wet, but doubt,
      in its negative connotation
      is silenced with enlightened
      realization.

      And given that this is a group
      devoted to discussion of
      meditation...

      One of the most consistently
      reported portals to the realization
      that frees us from fear and doubt
      is meditation, the silk robe
      of the quiet mind.

      (And speaking of silk robes...
      Is it just my childlike view,
      or are a few people parading
      around in the emperor's clothes
      in this meditation group? Just
      a rhetorical, albeit intentionally
      provocative, question.)

      All the love,

      Jeff
    • Jason Fishman
      Jeff, You look lovely ridding in on that white horse, how grandious! How d bonaire! How enlightening! ... Next to you the question still remains. As for whats
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 30, 2003
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        Jeff,

        You look lovely ridding in on that white horse, how
        grandious! How d'bonaire! How enlightening!

        --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
        >
        > By itself, an intriguing question,
        > "...is your mind absolutely
        > free from doubt?".

        Next to you the question still remains. As for whats
        written here any who, you gave us all the answer,
        wonderful!

        > But then, the monkeywrench of
        > "if...then" and its presumptive
        > logic gets tossed in and ruins it.

        Hey now, thats my monkeywrench, better give it back or
        I'll cry. Besides you don't even know how to use the
        damn thing ;)

        > Why would freedom from doubt
        > mean that one is omniscient?

        I can't touch this one, I'm not omni-scent, I prefer a
        more natural scent myself. :)

        > Freedom from doubt can mean
        > that in one who has been graced
        > with enlightened realization
        > that there is no longer a search
        > for objective truth, no need for
        > certainty, because "certainty"
        > is known. Clarity is known.
        > And clarity has no questions.

        Freedom from doubt means just that, "freedom from
        doubt". No "can mean". Don't start with me cause I can
        get mean! :) <many sideways smiles just for you!

        > There is no emotional
        > investment in outcome and all
        > is accepted with equanimity,
        > leaving no room for doubt.

        I dont accept this equanimity! Does that mean equal?
        Never liked the stuff I prefer sugar.

        > This would seem to be a
        > meeting ground of the jnana
        > and raja yogi's.

        Jnana and Raja meet when you remove the jn and the r
        to make "ana". Let's remove some more stuff!

        > Even Jesus shows up here, with
        > "You shall know the truth and
        > the truth shall set you free".

        He does, where?

        > My op ed would add, free from
        > fear and doubt.

        Oh man, now we're adding stuff. It's like a word game
        with math, how fun!

        > Of course, this is on the
        > inner plane and in the play
        > of consciousness. In the
        > relative world we may
        > entertain a playful doubt
        > about whether we can actually
        > jump all the way over a big
        > puddle without getting our
        > new shoes wet, but doubt,
        > in its negative connotation
        > is silenced with enlightened
        > realization.

        Now this is a treat! I mean, watching Jeff jump over a
        puddle as to not get his new shoes wet. How ya gonna
        get off that horse after all this mud-slinging? I'd
        hate to see you get those shiney new boots dirty.

        > And given that this is a group
        > devoted to discussion of
        > meditation...
        >
        > One of the most consistently
        > reported portals to the realization
        > that frees us from fear and doubt
        > is meditation, the silk robe
        > of the quiet mind.

        Yes, I hope your reading this Bob, we can all enjoy a
        plug for the site we're on!

        > (And speaking of silk robes...
        > Is it just my childlike view,
        > or are a few people parading
        > around in the emperor's clothes
        > in this meditation group? Just
        > a rhetorical, albeit intentionally
        > provocative, question.)

        I have this great pair of pj's...
        Well! emperors wear those too, yanno!

        > All the love,
        >
        > Jeff

        All silliness aside. Jeff your the man, I'm so very
        happy you took the time to write a response to this
        doubt thing and god said "it is good" or something
        along those lines.

        Freedom from " " is not avoidance of " ". Nothing need
        be doubted when " " is unavoidable, nothing need be
        more freeing. Freedom doesn't care what you avoid,
        peace doesn't care what you care to add or subtract to
        it. Only you care to avoid, add and subtract stuff to
        come up with other stuff that you can doubt or not
        doubt.

        Peace and Love


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      • jodyrrr
        ... [snip] ... Yet that isn t what Ganga is suggesting. What she (and her passage) suggests is that the mind of one who is supposedly enlightened is
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 30, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@s...> wrote:

          [snip]

          > Freedom from doubt can mean
          > that in one who has been graced
          > with enlightened realization
          > that there is no longer a search
          > for objective truth, no need for
          > certainty, because "certainty"
          > is known. Clarity is known.
          > And clarity has no questions.

          Yet that isn't what Ganga is suggesting. What she
          (and her passage) suggests is that the mind of one
          who is supposedly enlightened is absolutely free
          from *any* kind of doubt.

          That may make good copy, but it just ain't the
          truth, at least for any of those on this page.

          That is, all the minds here belie all the normal
          doings of minds. These minds may be associated
          with supposedly enlightened folk, or supposedly
          unenlightened folk. But the fact remains that
          these minds display tendencies that would seem
          to refute what Ganga is saying.

          Realization is not conditioned by anything within
          the mind or without. Some may have come to
          realization in the context of a stilled mind, some may
          have come in the context of an active mind.

          My point is this: getting frustrated because your
          brother drank all the milk isn't a sign of enlightenment,
          but nor does it indicate any lack of it.

          --jody.
        • G
          ... G: this is the problem .... people on these lists want to read between the lines.... find something hidden..... dredge up a whole scenario around one
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 30, 2003
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
            <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:

            > Yet that isn't what Ganga is suggesting. What she
            > (and her passage) suggests is that the mind of one
            > who is supposedly enlightened is absolutely free
            > from *any* kind of doubt.


            G: this is the problem .... people on these lists want to read
            between the lines.... find something hidden..... dredge up a
            whole scenario around one statement.... take one word and
            tear it apart....

            they want to fence and debate ... i wasn't on a debating team in
            school and have no wish to begin now....

            many are anti gurus that want to be judge and jury - the advaita
            police .... the intellectual judges of words and punctuation....
            the scholars of rhyme and rote..... pundits of scholarly texts ....
            the one that can find a chink somewhere in what is said .... if
            pointed out and droned upon then that will boost their prestige
            amongst the philosophical crowd....

            the one that speaks in endless words that go nowhere and no
            one can make sense of - want to feel special like their words are
            so deep beyond anyones understanding.... that is not knowing
            that is knowing about.... twisting and turning something straight
            out of recognition, until one simply becomes dizzy in the process
            of attempting to figure out what they are going in circles to say.....

            knowing is simple .... uncomplicated ..... nothing needs to be
            read into it .... it is simply as it is .... Now ... in This moment....

            ever changing is the transient play of the moment .... yet
            penetrating it is the unchanging Source.... that Knowing is
            Stable.... no doubt......

            just accept what is written as it stands ... or is this to
            simplistic ?

            i speak from what is my truth to the question of the moment ...
            my reality in this moment .... that is all...... it may be accepted or
            rejected .... it doesn't really matter.... it is not there to impress
            anyone ... nor to put down anyone ..... it is simply what is here
            in this place .... being shared from the heart..... not the head of
            intellectual one upmanship.....

            there is nothing wrong in intellectual one upmanship if that is
            the list game that everyone agrees to play...... if engaged in
            games enjoy it ......

            but i have no time for these games - so simply speak from what
            is here Now.... Simple ... Clear .... Concise ...
          • Gene Poole
            jodyrrr wrote: ... Pardon, but that is not what I read. ... Even so, it is difficult to divine (pardon the expression) the actual
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 30, 2003
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              "jodyrrr" <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
              "Jeff Belyea" <jeff@s...> wrote:

              > [snip]
              >
              > > Freedom from doubt can mean
              > > that in one who has been graced
              > > with enlightened realization
              > > that there is no longer a search
              > > for objective truth, no need for
              > > certainty, because "certainty"
              > > is known. Clarity is known.
              > > And clarity has no questions.
              >
              > Yet that isn't what Ganga is suggesting. What she
              > (and her passage) suggests is that the mind of one
              > who is supposedly enlightened is absolutely free
              > from *any* kind of doubt.

              Pardon, but that is not what I read.

              > That may make good copy, but it just ain't the
              > truth, at least for any of those on this page.

              Even so, it is difficult to divine (pardon the
              expression) the actual reality/perspective
              of another... instead, we depend on the words
              they post here... we carefully parse the offered
              logic, compare concepts with our own knowledge
              base, etc...

              > That is, all the minds here belie all the normal
              > doings of minds. These minds may be associated
              > with supposedly enlightened folk, or supposedly
              > unenlightened folk. But the fact remains that
              > these minds display tendencies that would seem
              > to refute what Ganga is saying.

              One mind may display what another does not;
              yet, there is no actual refutation, only comparison,
              with conclusions added as afterthought.

              > Realization is not conditioned by anything within
              > the mind or without. Some may have come to
              > realization in the context of a stilled mind, some may
              > have come in the context of an active mind.

              The difficulty seems to be... that one says that the
              personal context is realization... and then offers
              content which seem, not to come from that context.

              The real question is: To 'whom' does that content
              seem alien to the (stated/realized) context?

              All parties... cling to their own assumed context,
              and offer content, usually mindless of discrepancies
              so revealed... exceptions are rare... yet, this is known
              already, and an accepted part of this peculiar dance...
              it may be, that some are unaware of the accepted
              protocols of venues such as this, and thus take
              offense when questioned, vis, context vs content.

              > My point is this: getting frustrated because your
              > brother drank all the milk isn't a sign of enlightenment,
              > but nor does it indicate any lack of it.
              >
              > --jody.

              True enough... although, in the context of
              this particular (G) issue, it may be a matter
              of simple naivety... innocence if you will...

              So change the analogy to this:

              You have set up in advance an existing system
              in which, when brother drinks milk and you
              feign anger... he is to determine the 'seriousness'
              of your 'state' and thus receive the love you actually
              feel for him, if he succeeds/passes.

              This is done as an initiatory 'test', and will
              be repeated until he 'passes' by just laughing
              and continuing to drink the milk. It is an
              important test, because it represents how
              'real life' actually works.


              ==Gene Poole==
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