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Mind-Chatter, Meditation & Life

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  • asimpjoy
    Apparently many can see this constant mind-chatter , which is going on inside of one all the time? The thinking - all the words and pictures, including all
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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      Apparently many can see this constant "mind-chatter",
      which is going on inside of one all the time?
      The thinking - all the words and pictures,
      including all the emotion that goes with it.
      ... And all the suffering that it causes!

      As I watch it in myself, I notice that it is there wherever I go,
      kind of like a filtering system that always comes between me
      and whatever I see or hear - whatever I perceive!
      My own "rose-colored glasses".
      ... And it is always there, modifying or controlling
      everything I do or say - there hardly seems to be
      a moment when it is not in operation!

      ... And this is the "identity" I believe myself to be!???

      Yet, at the very moment my mind-chatter is not active,
      my relationship with everything changes!
      I am able to look and see things - "directly",
      ... I am able hear things without this constant noise
      inside of me interfering, and I am suddenly able to comprehend
      everything in an entirely different light - effortlessly!

      During these moments my behavior also changes!
      It becomes more spontaneous and free, because the
      controlling factor seems to be gone!
      ... And then, it seems, only sensitivity
      to the present moment determines my behavior.

      I always wonder if such moments of "direct contact"
      reveal the possibility of a whole different way
      of living and being? A living from the heart, and not the head.
      ... A way of living expressed by "The Awakened Ones".

      I guess one will never know until one is able
      to actually live one's daily life beyond the
      constant dominance and control of one's "mind-chatter",
      ... And one's identification with it.

      I think that this is perhaps the extraordinary value of meditation?

      With love and affection,
      Tony
    • devianandi
      everything i ve done in this life that i ve gottten really good at took *practice*, stopping the thought waves in the mind was no different. from the time i
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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        everything i've done in this life that i've gottten really good at
        took *practice*, stopping the thought waves in the mind was no
        different. from the time i realized that thats what needed to be done
        ( i received a very small book called *How to Know God* a simple
        translation of Patangilies Yoga Sutras)to get realization the process
        took 6 year...at times i concentrated on the word Om, at times i
        rubbed tigers balm on my third eye and kept my attention
        there...sometimes i would take a picture of my favorite saint and
        would meditate/stare on that picture. i also did music light nector
        and word meditations, i read spiritual books and only talked about
        God, i didn't go to movies, i didn't drink alcohol, i didn't eat
        meant and i kept myself and everything around me as clean as i
        could,,,any person whos knowledgeble about these things will tell you
        that the mind is very tricky, but if you make it your friend, it will
        begin to listen to you eventually and you'll be able to control
        it..theres no need to analyse anything, theres no need to to debate
        about whats dual or whats non-dual..just find a good technique and
        stick with it..and practicing the yamas and the niyama together with.
        also, about non-duality, the only thing you have to understand about
        duality is that there is you and seemingly something other than you
        that your searching for...thats all you have to know about
        duality...find that that your loooking for and you realize that what
        you were looking for was always right there and it is you....when you
        get to that place you can consider yourelf non-dual...i was obsessed
        with wanting realization...that's the quickest way to get it,,get
        obsessed...
      • Jason Fishman
        yes Devi and now what is the realization that you were so obsessed in getting? ... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo!
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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          yes Devi and now what is the realization that you were
          so obsessed in getting?

          --- devianandi <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          > everything i've done in this life that i've gottten
          > really good at
          > took *practice*, stopping the thought waves in the
          > mind was no
          > different. from the time i realized that thats what
          > needed to be done
          > ( i received a very small book called *How to Know
          > God* a simple
          > translation of Patangilies Yoga Sutras)to get
          > realization the process
          > took 6 year...at times i concentrated on the word
          > Om, at times i
          > rubbed tigers balm on my third eye and kept my
          > attention
          > there...sometimes i would take a picture of my
          > favorite saint and
          > would meditate/stare on that picture. i also did
          > music light nector
          > and word meditations, i read spiritual books and
          > only talked about
          > God, i didn't go to movies, i didn't drink alcohol,
          > i didn't eat
          > meant and i kept myself and everything around me as
          > clean as i
          > could,,,any person whos knowledgeble about these
          > things will tell you
          > that the mind is very tricky, but if you make it
          > your friend, it will
          > begin to listen to you eventually and you'll be able
          > to control
          > it..theres no need to analyse anything, theres no
          > need to to debate
          > about whats dual or whats non-dual..just find a good
          > technique and
          > stick with it..and practicing the yamas and the
          > niyama together with.
          > also, about non-duality, the only thing you have to
          > understand about
          > duality is that there is you and seemingly something
          > other than you
          > that your searching for...thats all you have to know
          > about
          > duality...find that that your loooking for and you
          > realize that what
          > you were looking for was always right there and it
          > is you....when you
          > get to that place you can consider yourelf
          > non-dual...i was obsessed
          > with wanting realization...that's the quickest way
          > to get it,,get
          > obsessed...
          >
          >
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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        • jodyrrr
          ... That she is the cosmos, but don t call her soup.
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
            > yes Devi and now what is the realization that you were
            > so obsessed in getting?

            That she is the cosmos, but don't call her soup.
          • jodyrrr
            ... [snip] ... This presents a great opportunity to inquire: who is the one comprehending? Whether in the usual or a different light, the one comprehending is
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, asimpjoy <no_reply@y...> wrote:

              [snip]

              > Yet, at the very moment my mind-chatter is not active,
              > my relationship with everything changes!
              > I am able to look and see things - "directly",
              > ... I am able hear things without this constant noise
              > inside of me interfering, and I am suddenly able to comprehend
              > everything in an entirely different light - effortlessly!

              This presents a great opportunity to inquire: who is
              the one comprehending?

              Whether in the usual or a different light, the one
              comprehending is still a separate entity "having"
              the understanding.

              > During these moments my behavior also changes!
              > It becomes more spontaneous and free, because the
              > controlling factor seems to be gone!
              > ... And then, it seems, only sensitivity
              > to the present moment determines my behavior.

              Who engages in behavior, whether robotically or more
              spontaneous or free?

              > I always wonder if such moments of "direct contact"
              > reveal the possibility of a whole different way
              > of living and being? A living from the heart, and not the head.
              > ... A way of living expressed by "The Awakened Ones".

              Those "Awakened Ones" live just like you. You are no
              different than they.

              > I guess one will never know until one is able
              > to actually live one's daily life beyond the
              > constant dominance and control of one's "mind-chatter",
              > ... And one's identification with it.

              Mind's chatter, leaves rustle. They are no different.
              Free of identity or bound by it, we all live by the seat
              of our pants.

              > I think that this is perhaps the extraordinary value of meditation?
              >
              > With love and affection,
              > Tony
            • devianandi
              jason: yes Devi and now what is the realization that you were so obsessed in getting? devi: it was nirvan/nirvikalp realiztion, also called by some God-
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                jason: yes Devi and now what is the realization that you were
                so obsessed in getting?

                devi: it was nirvan/nirvikalp realiztion, also called by some God-
                realization or kaivalya or liberation.. if you must know...jason, get
                this straight, i am not going to resond to you after this response, i
                don't like your energy towards me, you are just not a nice enough
                person for me to deal with

                jody: That she is the cosmos, but don't call her soup.
                devi: sad smile..i'm tired of communicating with you too..jody .i
                don't think you are very nice either



                same goes for you judi, your abusive demeanor in general jams my
                head...

                can't please everyone in this world...! and bottom line, it's only
                God that one should be conscerned about pleasing

                peace
              • jodyrrr
                ... [snip] ... As long as there is someone to please, there s someone that s got to go!
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, devianandi <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                  [snip]

                  > can't please everyone in this world...! and bottom line, it's only
                  > God that one should be conscerned about pleasing
                  >
                  > peace

                  As long as there is someone to please, there's someone that's
                  got to go!
                • Jason Fishman
                  and so the seed of fear and intolerence is planted and then there was one :) Peace and Love Devi ... __________________________________________________ Do you
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                    and so the seed of fear and intolerence is planted and
                    then there was one :)

                    Peace and Love Devi

                    --- devianandi <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    > jason: yes Devi and now what is the realization that
                    > you were
                    > so obsessed in getting?
                    >
                    > devi: it was nirvan/nirvikalp realiztion, also
                    > called by some God-
                    > realization or kaivalya or liberation.. if you must
                    > know...jason, get
                    > this straight, i am not going to resond to you after
                    > this response, i
                    > don't like your energy towards me, you are just not
                    > a nice enough
                    > person for me to deal with
                    >
                    > jody: That she is the cosmos, but don't call her
                    > soup.
                    > devi: sad smile..i'm tired of communicating with you
                    > too..jody .i
                    > don't think you are very nice either
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > same goes for you judi, your abusive demeanor in
                    > general jams my
                    > head...
                    >
                    > can't please everyone in this world...! and bottom
                    > line, it's only
                    > God that one should be conscerned about pleasing
                    >
                    > peace
                    >
                    >


                    __________________________________________________
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
                    http://platinum.yahoo.com
                  • Jason Fishman
                    ... Yes, and don t call me late for dinner, my cosmos might get cold :) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum -
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                      --- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      > Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                      > > yes Devi and now what is the realization that you
                      > were
                      > > so obsessed in getting?
                      >
                      > That she is the cosmos, but don't call her soup.
                      >
                      Yes, and don't call me late for dinner, my cosmos
                      might get cold :)


                      __________________________________________________
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
                      http://platinum.yahoo.com
                    • Jason Fishman
                      ... Yes, as long as there is a someone recognizing a someone as a realizer, that someone has already left. Peace and Love
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                        --- jodyrrr <jodyrrr@...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        > devianandi <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > [snip]
                        >
                        > > can't please everyone in this world...! and bottom
                        > line, it's only
                        > > God that one should be conscerned about pleasing
                        > >
                        > > peace
                        >
                        > As long as there is someone to please, there's
                        > someone that's
                        > got to go!
                        >
                        Yes, as long as there is a someone recognizing a
                        someone as a realizer, that someone has already left.

                        Peace and Love


                        __________________________________________________
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
                        http://platinum.yahoo.com
                      • devianandi
                        can t please everyone in this world...! and bottom line, it s only God that one should be concerned about pleasing one has to understand that the search for
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                          can't please everyone in this world...! and bottom line, it's only
                          God that one should be concerned about pleasing



                          one has to understand that the search for reality, or God or Guru and
                          the search for the Self are the same: when one is found, all are
                          found. When "I am* and "God is" become in your mind
                          indistinguishable, than something will happen and you will know
                          without a trace of doubt that God is because you are, and you are
                          because God is..The two are one....



                          as long as you are a beginner certain formalized meditations, or
                          prayers may be good for you. But for a seeker for reality there is
                          only one medtitaion - the rigorous refusal to harbour thoughts. To be
                          free from thoughts is itself meditation.

                          remove yourself from those people and thngs that keep you down, keep
                          your vibrations at a high level, look for your self. the looking will
                          produce the seeing..if you must think then think about God, think
                          about the words of saints and Gurus, past and present.
                        • devianandi
                          Imagination on the planes ceases as soon as the pilgram crosses the field of Illusion and enters the realm of Reality in the seventh plane of completely
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                            Imagination on the planes ceases
                            as soon as the pilgram crosses
                            the field of Illusion and enters
                            the realm of Reality
                            in the seventh plane
                            of completely involved consciousenss,
                            where he is absolutely free
                            of all traces of impressions.
                            The seventh plane of consciousness is full,
                            as well as matured,
                            consciousness and is the impressionless consciousness
                            which identifited the soul with its *Self*
                            The soul then feels and experiences consciously
                            its eternal existence as God.
                            The *drop* (soul), devoid of any bubble
                            (form of ignorance in Illusion),
                            realizes its eternal existence
                            in the infinite ocean,
                            as the ocean itself
                            (the Param-atma or the Over-Soul).
                          • asimpjoy
                            ... **** T: I only use the word comprehend in an attempt to express what is taking place, but, actually - at that moment, there is no self-conscious separate
                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                              > [snip]
                              >
                              > > Yet, at the very moment my mind-chatter is not active,
                              > > my relationship with everything changes!
                              > > I am able to look and see things - "directly",
                              > > ... I am able hear things without this constant noise
                              > > inside of me interfering, and I am suddenly able to comprehend
                              > > everything in an entirely different light - effortlessly!
                              >
                              > J: This presents a great opportunity to inquire: who is
                              > the one comprehending?
                              **** T: I only use the word "comprehend" in an attempt to
                              express what is taking place, but, actually - at that moment,
                              there is no self-conscious separate entity present, only a seeing
                              what is there - but not as a separate observer, rather it is
                              more like a being one with what is there - "unselfconsciously".

                              > J: Whether in the usual or a different light, the one
                              > comprehending is still a separate entity "having"
                              > the understanding.
                              **** T: Yes, of course, but in what I am attempting to describe,
                              the separate entity only comes in *afterwards*, because, at the time
                              of direct contact, the "mind-chatter" is not active, and so no self-
                              conscious entity is present.
                              >
                              > > During these moments my behavior also changes!
                              > > It becomes more spontaneous and free, because the
                              > > controlling factor seems to be gone!
                              > > ... And then, it seems, only sensitivity
                              > > to the present moment determines my behavior.
                              >
                              > Who engages in behavior, whether robotically or more
                              > spontaneous or free?
                              **** T: Again, I'm only trying to say that behavior itself is
                              different, and it is different precisely because there is no
                              sense of "me" doing it - no mind-chatter dominating and controlling
                              action.
                              ... It is no longer "self-conscious" behavior.

                              >
                              > > I always wonder if such moments of "direct contact"
                              > > reveal the possibility of a whole different way
                              > > of living and being? A living from the heart, and not the head.
                              > > ... A way of living expressed by "The Awakened Ones".
                              >
                              > J: Those "Awakened Ones" live just like you. You are no
                              > different than they.
                              **** T: I cannot say for sure who is and who is not "Awakened",
                              but from what I have observed there seems to be a fundamental
                              psychological difference in the one whose mind is still.
                              ... The stilled mind appears to function much differently than the
                              mind that is always preoccupied with it own "mind-chatter", the mind
                              that remains fully identified with its own individual personal drama
                              and story-line - the mind that continues to suffers so.

                              > > I guess one will never know until one is able
                              > > to actually live one's daily life beyond the
                              > > constant dominance and control of one's "mind-chatter",
                              > > ... And one's identification with it.
                              >
                              > J: Mind's chatter, leaves rustle. They are no different.
                              > Free of identity or bound by it, we all live by the seat
                              > of our pants.
                              **** T: Is there then not a living in which this struggle is no
                              longer present? Sure, there may be physical difficulties - no doubt,
                              but is psychological confusion and suffering always inevitable?
                              >
                              > > I think that this is perhaps the extraordinary value of
                              meditation?
                              > >
                              > > With love and affection,
                              > > Tony
                            • G
                              ... seeing what is there - but not as a separate observer, rather it is ... G: so what is it that precipitates a return to mind and the identifications with
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, asimpjoy
                                <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                                > > J: This presents a great opportunity to inquire: who is
                                > > the one comprehending?

                                > **** T: I only use the word "comprehend" in an attempt to
                                > express what is taking place, but, actually - at that moment,
                                > there is no self-conscious separate entity present, only a
                                seeing what is there - but not as a separate observer, rather it is
                                > more like a being one with what is there - "unselfconsciously".

                                G: so what is it that precipitates a return to mind and the
                                identifications with the risings? witness then question and let it
                                drop.... don't pick it up again.....


                                > > J: Whether in the usual or a different light, the one
                                > > comprehending is still a separate entity "having"
                                > > the understanding.

                                > **** T: Yes, of course, but in what I am attempting to describe,
                                > the separate entity only comes in *afterwards*, because, at the
                                time of direct contact, the "mind-chatter" is not active, and so no
                                self- conscious entity is present.

                                G: what are you the alien? hahahahaha forget entities.... forget
                                looking for egos.... let it all go and simply let awareness
                                remain.....


                                T: > > > During these moments my behavior also changes!
                                > > > It becomes more spontaneous and free, because the
                                > > > controlling factor seems to be gone!
                                > > > ... And then, it seems, only sensitivity
                                > > > to the present moment determines my behavior.

                                G: of course... you are no longer second guessing every
                                moment.... there is a freedom present ... going with the flow
                                instead of swimming against the current....


                                J: > > Who engages in behavior, whether robotically or more
                                > > spontaneous or free?


                                > **** T: Again, I'm only trying to say that behavior itself is
                                > different, and it is different precisely because there is no
                                > sense of "me" doing it - no mind-chatter dominating and
                                controlling
                                > action.
                                > ... It is no longer "self-conscious" behavior.

                                G: you have forgotten yourself for a moment.... life is simply
                                unfolding ... there is no need to hold any identity in place for it to
                                spontaneously move on the wings of Being ... Love and Being
                                simply are.... when not pursued or attempted they are simply
                                the outflow of Truth which is Now....


                                T: > > > I always wonder if such moments of "direct contact"
                                > > > reveal the possibility of a whole different way
                                > > > of living and being? A living from the heart, and not the
                                head.
                                > > > ... A way of living expressed by "The Awakened Ones".

                                G: one needs not live from the head... nor from guilt or
                                emotional need or desire or good deeds which may sometimes
                                masquerade as Love... the motivations of the head that may be
                                masked as heart... these are not heart .. these are the closed
                                heart ... the substitute happenings which do not allow the heart
                                to breathe and expand into IS.... Heart is Being once the masks
                                are set aside for clarity ....


                                > > J: Those "Awakened Ones" live just like you. You are no
                                > > different than they.

                                > **** T: I cannot say for sure who is and who is not "Awakened",
                                > but from what I have observed there seems to be a
                                fundamental > psychological difference in the one whose mind
                                is still. ... The stilled mind appears to function much differently
                                than the mind that is always preoccupied with it own
                                "mind-chatter", the mind that remains fully identified with its own
                                individual personal drama and story-line - the mind that
                                continues to suffers so.

                                G: it is a different paradigm ... no story to maintain... no
                                second guessing or hidden motives or agendas... life is as it
                                is..... moment to moment .... simplicity ... simplicity ....
                                simplicity..... waves come and go like momentary ripples and
                                the quietude returns like a knife cutting waters cannot keep the
                                waters from merging immediately in a cohesive whole.... can
                                one tell where the knife just passed? No ... it came and went ...
                                one moment and then over... the ocean returns to its natural
                                state.... this is living within the stilled mind ...


                                T: > > > I guess one will never know until one is able
                                > > > to actually live one's daily life beyond the
                                > > > constant dominance and control of one's "mind-chatter",
                                > > > ... And one's identification with it.

                                G: one moment it simply occurs.... it all falls away.... but that
                                doesn't come unless one prepares to receive it ....


                                > > J: Mind's chatter, leaves rustle. They are no different.
                                > > Free of identity or bound by it, we all live by the seat
                                > > of our pants.

                                > **** T: Is there then not a living in which this struggle is no
                                > longer present? Sure, there may be physical difficulties - no
                                doubt, but is psychological confusion and suffering always
                                inevitable?

                                G: no they are not inevitable.... problems appear to come and
                                go ... but they are only problems as long as there is an
                                attachment to outcome or processs...... once let go it is simply
                                another unfolding adventure one waits to see how it plays out....


                                T: > > > I think that this is perhaps the extraordinary value of
                                > meditation?

                                G: it is the outcome of meditation.... meditation once settled
                                needs nothing to maintain it ..... it is not an effort ... it is not
                                something that is done - not a practice .... it is simply what
                                remains.....


                                > > > With love and affection,
                                > > > Tony

                                shanti om
                              • jodyrrr
                                ... [snip] ... If there is a seeing of something, then there must be a seer and a seen. You saw that you were more free, therefore there was some kind
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, asimpjoy <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                                  [snip]

                                  > **** T: I only use the word "comprehend" in an attempt to
                                  > express what is taking place, but, actually - at that moment,
                                  > there is no self-conscious separate entity present, only a seeing
                                  > what is there - but not as a separate observer, rather it is
                                  > more like a being one with what is there - "unselfconsciously".

                                  If there is a "seeing" of something, then there must be a "seer"
                                  and a "seen." You saw that you were more free, therefore
                                  there was some kind of "you" observing the increased freedom.

                                  > > J: Whether in the usual or a different light, the one
                                  > > comprehending is still a separate entity "having"
                                  > > the understanding.
                                  >
                                  > **** T: Yes, of course, but in what I am attempting to describe,
                                  > the separate entity only comes in *afterwards*, because, at the time
                                  > of direct contact, the "mind-chatter" is not active, and so no self-
                                  > conscious entity is present.

                                  There must have been an observer, otherwise there would
                                  be nothing to report. That is, the mind-chatter stopped and
                                  your usual mode of perception stopped with it, yet there was
                                  still an entity present to remember the experience of no
                                  mind-chatter.

                                  > > > During these moments my behavior also changes!
                                  > > > It becomes more spontaneous and free, because the
                                  > > > controlling factor seems to be gone!
                                  > > > ... And then, it seems, only sensitivity
                                  > > > to the present moment determines my behavior.
                                  > >
                                  > > Who engages in behavior, whether robotically or more
                                  > > spontaneous or free?
                                  >
                                  > **** T: Again, I'm only trying to say that behavior itself is
                                  > different, and it is different precisely because there is no
                                  > sense of "me" doing it - no mind-chatter dominating and controlling
                                  > action.
                                  > ... It is no longer "self-conscious" behavior.

                                  Yet there is still an observation being done, and this always
                                  entails an observer and an observed.

                                  > > > I always wonder if such moments of "direct contact"
                                  > > > reveal the possibility of a whole different way
                                  > > > of living and being? A living from the heart, and not the head.
                                  > > > ... A way of living expressed by "The Awakened Ones".
                                  > >
                                  > > J: Those "Awakened Ones" live just like you. You are no
                                  > > different than they.
                                  >
                                  > **** T: I cannot say for sure who is and who is not "Awakened",
                                  > but from what I have observed there seems to be a fundamental
                                  > psychological difference in the one whose mind is still.

                                  Of course. However, a still mind is not a condition of awakening.
                                  That is, one may know themselves as Brahman and still have a mind
                                  that functions, indeed may even be "cluttered" at times.

                                  > ... The stilled mind appears to function much differently than the
                                  > mind that is always preoccupied with it own "mind-chatter", the mind
                                  > that remains fully identified with its own individual personal drama
                                  > and story-line - the mind that continues to suffers so.

                                  How can a stilled mind function at all? Is not the clutter also
                                  the function?

                                  It's not the mind that's the problem, it's the idea that we are
                                  the mind's activity. We aren't, nor were we ever. However,
                                  some are beset by the very common misunderstanding that
                                  they are the "entity" they believe themselves to be. When the
                                  clarity of jnana is established, it is known that the entity is
                                  an illusion, a mere idea that is thrown off. However, the mind
                                  keeps right on ticking, like that famous bunny on tv.

                                  > > > I guess one will never know until one is able
                                  > > > to actually live one's daily life beyond the
                                  > > > constant dominance and control of one's "mind-chatter",
                                  > > > ... And one's identification with it.
                                  > >
                                  > > J: Mind's chatter, leaves rustle. They are no different.
                                  > > Free of identity or bound by it, we all live by the seat
                                  > > of our pants.
                                  >
                                  > **** T: Is there then not a living in which this struggle is no
                                  > longer present? Sure, there may be physical difficulties - no doubt,
                                  > but is psychological confusion and suffering always inevitable?

                                  Confusion and suffering cease for the one who knows who
                                  they are, yet the mind will continue to groan and complain.

                                  [snip]
                                • G
                                  ... G: minds do not necessarily continue to groan and complain .... from the Song of Ribhu Without the least sankalpa (concept , fixed idea) or vikalpa
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                    <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:

                                    > Confusion and suffering cease for the one who knows who
                                    > they are, yet the mind will continue to groan and complain.
                                    >
                                    > [snip]

                                    G: minds do not necessarily continue to groan and complain ....

                                    from the Song of Ribhu

                                    Without the least sankalpa (concept , fixed idea) or vikalpa
                                    (difference, doubt, imagination)...
                                    The completely quiescent mind alone will, Merging with the One
                                    Supreme Siva, attain true Liberation...
                                    The mind that is agitated and subject to sankalpa (concept, fixed
                                    idea) or vikalpa (difference, doubt, imagination)
                                    Shall never attain that state of Liberation...


                                    and so it is .... and so it remains....

                                    shanti om

                                    shanti om
                                  • Jason Fishman
                                    ... Jay: Yes Ganga, what does precipitate returning to mind to write these words that are written? ... Jay: Yes, are you an alien? Forget something and let
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                      --- G <crystalkundalini@...> wrote:
                                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                      > asimpjoy
                                      > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > > J: This presents a great opportunity to inquire:
                                      > who is
                                      > > > the one comprehending?
                                      >
                                      > > **** T: I only use the word "comprehend" in an
                                      > attempt to
                                      > > express what is taking place, but, actually - at
                                      > that moment,
                                      > > there is no self-conscious separate entity
                                      > present, only a
                                      > seeing what is there - but not as a separate
                                      > observer, rather it is
                                      > > more like a being one with what is there -
                                      > "unselfconsciously".
                                      >
                                      > G: so what is it that precipitates a return to mind
                                      > and the
                                      > identifications with the risings? witness then
                                      > question and let it
                                      > drop.... don't pick it up again.....

                                      Jay: Yes Ganga, what does precipitate returning to
                                      mind to write these words that are written?

                                      > > > J: Whether in the usual or a different light,
                                      > the one
                                      > > > comprehending is still a separate entity
                                      > "having"
                                      > > > the understanding.
                                      >
                                      > > **** T: Yes, of course, but in what I am
                                      > attempting to describe,
                                      > > the separate entity only comes in *afterwards*,
                                      > because, at the
                                      > time of direct contact, the "mind-chatter" is not
                                      > active, and so no
                                      > self- conscious entity is present.
                                      >
                                      > G: what are you the alien? hahahahaha forget
                                      > entities.... forget
                                      > looking for egos.... let it all go and simply let
                                      > awareness
                                      > remain.....
                                      >

                                      Jay: Yes, are you an alien? Forget something and let
                                      awareness remain inside whom? Who is allowing such
                                      things?

                                      > T: > > > During these moments my behavior also
                                      > changes!
                                      > > > > It becomes more spontaneous and free, because
                                      > the
                                      > > > > controlling factor seems to be gone!
                                      > > > > ... And then, it seems, only sensitivity
                                      > > > > to the present moment determines my behavior.
                                      >
                                      > G: of course... you are no longer second
                                      > guessing every
                                      > moment.... there is a freedom present ... going
                                      > with the flow
                                      > instead of swimming against the current....
                                      >

                                      Jay: Yes, bondage of a seperate identity is all about
                                      swimming against a current or going with a flow.

                                      > J: > > Who engages in behavior, whether robotically
                                      > or more
                                      > > > spontaneous or free?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > **** T: Again, I'm only trying to say that
                                      > behavior itself is
                                      > > different, and it is different precisely because
                                      > there is no
                                      > > sense of "me" doing it - no mind-chatter
                                      > dominating and
                                      > controlling
                                      > > action.
                                      > > ... It is no longer "self-conscious" behavior.
                                      >
                                      > G: you have forgotten yourself for a moment....
                                      > life is simply
                                      > unfolding ... there is no need to hold any
                                      > identity in place for it to
                                      > spontaneously move on the wings of Being ... Love
                                      > and Being
                                      > simply are.... when not pursued or attempted they
                                      > are simply
                                      > the outflow of Truth which is Now....
                                      >

                                      Jay: Yes, this clarifies things rather nicely.
                                      "Forgetting yourself for a moment." Back to the
                                      freedom that is a bondage of loving a someone or being
                                      a something.

                                      > T: > > > I always wonder if such moments of
                                      > "direct contact"
                                      > > > > reveal the possibility of a whole different
                                      > way
                                      > > > > of living and being? A living from the heart,
                                      > and not the
                                      > head.
                                      > > > > ... A way of living expressed by "The Awakened
                                      > Ones".
                                      >
                                      > G: one needs not live from the head... nor
                                      > from guilt or
                                      > emotional need or desire or good deeds which may
                                      > sometimes
                                      > masquerade as Love... the motivations of the head
                                      > that may be
                                      > masked as heart... these are not heart .. these
                                      > are the closed
                                      > heart ... the substitute happenings which do not
                                      > allow the heart
                                      > to breathe and expand into IS.... Heart is Being
                                      > once the masks
                                      > are set aside for clarity ....
                                      >

                                      Jay: Certainly, one does not need to live from the
                                      head. The head is required to live... masking, heart,
                                      need or desire doesn't drop. Nothing need be
                                      substituted for the head or the heart or the x,y,z. No
                                      asides get put aside, clarity in putting something
                                      aside is putting aside clarity, which is always
                                      attempted by these supposed seperate selves,
                                      participating in some seperate activity of which Ganga
                                      or these "others", like a me are doing as seperate
                                      activities.

                                      > > > J: Those "Awakened Ones" live just like you.
                                      > You are no
                                      > > > different than they.
                                      >
                                      > > **** T: I cannot say for sure who is and who is
                                      > not "Awakened",
                                      > > but from what I have observed there seems to be a
                                      > fundamental > psychological difference in the one
                                      > whose mind
                                      > is still. ... The stilled mind appears to function
                                      > much differently
                                      > than the mind that is always preoccupied with it own
                                      >
                                      > "mind-chatter", the mind that remains fully
                                      > identified with its own
                                      > individual personal drama and story-line - the mind
                                      > that
                                      > continues to suffers so.
                                      >
                                      > G: it is a different paradigm ... no story to
                                      > maintain... no
                                      > second guessing or hidden motives or agendas...
                                      > life is as it
                                      > is..... moment to moment .... simplicity ...
                                      > simplicity ....
                                      > simplicity..... waves come and go like momentary
                                      > ripples and
                                      > the quietude returns like a knife cutting waters
                                      > cannot keep the
                                      > waters from merging immediately in a cohesive
                                      > whole.... can
                                      > one tell where the knife just passed? No ... it
                                      > came and went ...
                                      > one moment and then over... the ocean returns to
                                      > its natural
                                      > state.... this is living within the stilled mind
                                      > ...
                                      >

                                      Jay: This is the only thing that keeps comming back,
                                      over and over, this stilled mind. As if there is an
                                      unstilled mind that doesn't "allow" for this moment.
                                      This removing a noise in a head that doesn't need
                                      removed. Calling a kettle white, when it's black,
                                      doesn't change it's color. This isn't a disagreement
                                      with what your trying to convey, a stilled mind has a
                                      value to a being that is stilling a mind. Yet, this
                                      lack of acknowledging an unstilled mind, as a
                                      something opposing what you have in a stilled mind
                                      really needs looking into.


                                      > T: > > > I guess one will never know until one is
                                      > able
                                      > > > > to actually live one's daily life beyond the
                                      > > > > constant dominance and control of one's
                                      > "mind-chatter",
                                      > > > > ... And one's identification with it.
                                      >
                                      > G: one moment it simply occurs.... it all
                                      > falls away.... but that
                                      > doesn't come unless one prepares to receive it ....
                                      >

                                      Jay: Yes, one moment occurs and then it's gone, this
                                      is always in time, whether one is prepared for it or
                                      not. Thats time for ya.

                                      Let's call the kettle black. An identity is controlled
                                      by mind, chatter or no chatter, this is an identity.
                                      Along with it comes identifying an opposing view that
                                      also makes identifications. Dropping this identifying
                                      is another control issue, stilling a mind is another
                                      control issue, doing and saying a thing is something
                                      that needs looking into. There is a basis, a bottom
                                      line, a peace, that has no concern for identifying a
                                      thing or calling a kettle black. I take this
                                      personally, then it's over. I do this thing and then
                                      it's done, before it had a chance to start. I don't
                                      attempt to still a mind in some future, a mind is
                                      stilled in a moment as a being that is keeping time
                                      with moments. All doings undone, right now, with no
                                      one at the wheel.

                                      > > > J: Mind's chatter, leaves rustle. They are no
                                      > different.
                                      > > > Free of identity or bound by it, we all live by
                                      > the seat
                                      > > > of our pants.
                                      >
                                      > > **** T: Is there then not a living in which this
                                      > struggle is no
                                      > > longer present? Sure, there may be physical
                                      > difficulties - no
                                      > doubt, but is psychological confusion and suffering
                                      > always
                                      > inevitable?
                                      >
                                      > G: no they are not inevitable.... problems
                                      > appear to come and
                                      > go ... but they are only problems as long as there
                                      > is an
                                      > attachment to outcome or processs...... once let
                                      > go it is simply
                                      > another unfolding adventure one waits to see how it
                                      > plays out....
                                      >

                                      Jay: Yes, Ganga. Attachment is nine tenths of the law
                                      :) Really, whats funny is.. trying to not attach
                                      oneself to a something and saying I let it go. Here is
                                      the crux again, theres no one driving this thing and
                                      it's all over the road! Each moment arrises, a
                                      something unfolds, it is delt with as a being that is
                                      defining these moments and these somethings, you have
                                      no choice but to let it go, even if this something
                                      comes up again, at some later moment, there is no
                                      choice but to let it go again and think some other
                                      something. It all fits into a nice little package, no
                                      need to remove it's contents.

                                      > T: > > > I think that this is perhaps the
                                      > extraordinary value of
                                      > > meditation?
                                      >
                                      > G: it is the outcome of meditation....
                                      > meditation once settled
                                      > needs nothing to maintain it ..... it is not an
                                      > effort ... it is not
                                      > something that is done - not a practice .... it
                                      > is simply what
                                      > remains.....

                                      Jay: The extraodinary is quite plain. This and that go
                                      there. Meditation is a practice, walking the dog is a
                                      practice, thinking your an automated being is a
                                      practice. None of these practices are anything that
                                      needs to be done, this moment arrises, I take out the
                                      trash or I don't. I reflect, I should of taken out the
                                      trash, it stinks in here. Again the crux is, who is
                                      left to say that I can or cannot go back to the
                                      previous moment and take out the trash OR to say that
                                      this moment isn't the precise moment that the trash
                                      gets taken out? Only this me, defining these moments
                                      and stinky trash, as a mind thinking itself forward.

                                      The only thing that needs looked into, in some future
                                      moment, is this looking into these future and past
                                      moments. Do this with a stilled mind or a thought
                                      filled on, they both lead to the same outcome an AHA!

                                      This understanding is a something already going on by
                                      an everyone, this makes an everyone quite special
                                      without even knowing anything about the specials. Make
                                      my special with gravy and mashed taters.

                                      Peace and Love

                                      __________________________________________________
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                                    • jodyrrr
                                      ... Ganga, tell us truthfully, is your mind absolutely free from doubt? I doubt it. If not, then you would be omniscient. What the above passage describes is
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                        > <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Confusion and suffering cease for the one who knows who
                                        > > they are, yet the mind will continue to groan and complain.
                                        > >
                                        > > [snip]
                                        >
                                        > G: minds do not necessarily continue to groan and complain ....
                                        >
                                        > from the Song of Ribhu
                                        >
                                        > Without the least sankalpa (concept , fixed idea) or vikalpa
                                        > (difference, doubt, imagination)...
                                        > The completely quiescent mind alone will, Merging with the One
                                        > Supreme Siva, attain true Liberation...
                                        > The mind that is agitated and subject to sankalpa (concept, fixed
                                        > idea) or vikalpa (difference, doubt, imagination)
                                        > Shall never attain that state of Liberation...
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > and so it is .... and so it remains....

                                        Ganga, tell us truthfully, is your mind absolutely free from doubt?

                                        I doubt it. If not, then you would be omniscient.

                                        What the above passage describes is Nirvakalpa. There's also
                                        Salvakalpa and Sahaja (according to Ramana.)

                                        We can live in the knowledge of who we are and yet still
                                        observe the mind's conditionings. Everyone who has posted
                                        to these lists, realized or not, has demonstrated these
                                        conditionings.

                                        I'd chalk that passage up to Indian hyperbole and ancient
                                        history and move on.

                                        --jody.
                                      • G
                                        J:; Ganga, tell us truthfully, is your mind absolutely free from doubt? G: yes absolutely and totally...... after Nirvikalpa my guru questioned me ....
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                          J:; > Ganga, tell us truthfully, is your mind absolutely free from
                                          doubt?

                                          G: yes absolutely and totally...... after Nirvikalpa my guru
                                          questioned me .... he asked .... are you convinced ? i said no...
                                          for that would contain doubt within it .... there is no doubt
                                          Source simply IS ... (Pregnant) Void IS ... in Absolute i am not
                                          nor ever have been ... if the world vanishes and is destroyed
                                          within the next heartbeat it doesn't matter in the least for Source
                                          IS and remains undisturbed .... for it has no risings ... it simply
                                          is and i am That .... end of story ... nothing to take back ...
                                          illusions stripped bare.....

                                          J: > I doubt it. If not, then you would be omniscient.

                                          G: no then one would simply be most ordinary....

                                          relaxed in awareness and Being...... Nothing to look for ...
                                          Nothing to strive for ... Nothing one needs to accomplish or be
                                          ... doubt necessitates attempting to fill the space ....... this is at
                                          once All Space Empty and Vast yet Whole .... it cannot be
                                          described not concieved of by the limitational mind which
                                          chases rising and falling conditionings and doubts....

                                          J: > What the above passage describes is Nirvakalpa. There's
                                          also Salvakalpa and Sahaja (according to Ramana.)

                                          G: no this is a passage that says the the rambling mind is not it
                                          .... and is not going to get it, or be it ..... so of course those
                                          within the minds doubts are going to attempt to place this in a
                                          light other than what it is...... perhaps read more Ramana...
                                          his mind was also stilled .... there remained in essense for him
                                          no mind - for the risings in mind are empty ....
                                          Sahaja is within a natural oneness and that contains also No
                                          Doubt.... for if doubt is then Sahaja is not....

                                          Sahaja or Nirvikalpa Sahaja remain.....

                                          J: > We can live in the knowledge of who we are and yet still
                                          > observe the mind's conditionings. Everyone who has posted
                                          > to these lists, realized or not, has demonstrated these
                                          > conditionings.

                                          G: if you are clinging to the conditionings then that is not it.....
                                          Parabdha remains it plays out.... it does not have to be
                                          clung to ... nor does it need to be observed...
                                          you see it as conditionings yet conditionings may be broken
                                          and simply residule Parabdha be playing out.... please
                                          understand what goes and what remains.... you are
                                          judging this with the eyes of a common man - not in the
                                          light of freedom from bondage....

                                          J: > I'd chalk that passage up to Indian hyperbole and ancient
                                          > history and move on.

                                          G: of course you would ... because they belay your condition
                                          as that of limited rather than complete experience - that
                                          settles in time to simply Being ..... we have
                                          had this same discussion some time ago ....

                                          why do you respect Sri Ramana and yet the next minute
                                          call this indian hyperbole.... Sri Ramana was the living
                                          truth of this very *hyperbole*......

                                          remember the Tripura Rihasyah ? you before doubted the
                                          stilled mind .... it is quite clear ... it can and does exist ....
                                          because you still struggle with minds ideas -
                                          conditionings- and ramblings do not think that all do .....

                                          you had a momentary experience and then kept taking
                                          back the self cognition and mind with all it's foibles and
                                          problems, it is this that you still wrestle with ....

                                          perhaps you are simply coming to accept yourself as you
                                          are ... that is fine .... nothing wrong in that at all.....

                                          > --jody.
                                        • asimpjoy
                                          ... is ... it ... **** T: ... so what is it that precipitates a return to mind and the identifications ... (Ganga) I don t know! ... The mind-chatter seems to
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                                            <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, asimpjoy
                                            > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > > J: This presents a great opportunity to inquire: who is
                                            > > > the one comprehending?
                                            >
                                            > > **** T: I only use the word "comprehend" in an attempt to
                                            > > express what is taking place, but, actually - at that moment,
                                            > > there is no self-conscious separate entity present, only a
                                            > seeing what is there - but not as a separate observer, rather it
                                            is
                                            > > more like a being one with what is there - "unselfconsciously".
                                            >
                                            > G: so what is it that precipitates a return to mind and the
                                            > identifications with the risings? witness then question and let
                                            it
                                            > drop.... don't pick it up again.....
                                            **** T: "... so what is it that precipitates a return to mind and the
                                            identifications ..."(Ganga)
                                            I don't know!
                                            ... The mind-chatter seems to be habitual, because even though I
                                            understand "intellectually" that I should not "pick it up again"
                                            it comes back anyways - and I'm off again, until the next brief
                                            moment of unselfconscious stillness.
                                            ... What makes one come out of it? Why is there this compulsion to
                                            keep the mind-chatter going? Is it because of identity and the
                                            compulsion to survive - the inability to face the complete
                                            psychological death of whom I believe myself to be?
                                            If I try not to pick it up again, then there I am again making effort
                                            chattering about not picking up the mind-chatter - trying to resist
                                            and suppress it.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > > J: Whether in the usual or a different light, the one
                                            > > > comprehending is still a separate entity "having"
                                            > > > the understanding.
                                            >
                                            > > **** T: Yes, of course, but in what I am attempting to describe,
                                            > > the separate entity only comes in *afterwards*, because, at the
                                            > time of direct contact, the "mind-chatter" is not active, and so no
                                            > self- conscious entity is present.
                                            >
                                            > G: what are you the alien? hahahahaha forget entities....
                                            forget
                                            > looking for egos.... let it all go and simply let awareness
                                            > remain.....
                                            ****T: Yes, just "let go"!
                                            ... This is the dilemma I face: For some reason I don't
                                            spontaneously "let go", and of course any effort I make consciously
                                            to let go, only make "me" appear in even more strength, because there
                                            I am again, trying very hard to let go - holding on to "letting go"!
                                            So why does one hold on?
                                            ... Is it because the habitual momentum of "mind-chatter" is so
                                            strong that it just keeps coming back again and again, or is it
                                            because one still has not understood fully the utter necessity to let
                                            go?
                                            Is it fear of death?

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > T: > > > During these moments my behavior also changes!
                                            > > > > It becomes more spontaneous and free, because the
                                            > > > > controlling factor seems to be gone!
                                            > > > > ... And then, it seems, only sensitivity
                                            > > > > to the present moment determines my behavior.
                                            >
                                            > G: of course... you are no longer second guessing every
                                            > moment.... there is a freedom present ... going with the flow
                                            > instead of swimming against the current....
                                            **** T: Yes! All at once all personal problems seem to vanish - it is
                                            the complete absence of all inward psychological conflict,
                                            ... And in those brief moments there comes a natural, spontaneous
                                            affection, and a calm passionate interest in the present moment. It
                                            is only in those moments that I'm no longer weighed down by the "mind-
                                            chatter" of my own personal "story-line", and its burdensome
                                            identity.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > J: > > Who engages in behavior, whether robotically or more
                                            > > > spontaneous or free?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > **** T: Again, I'm only trying to say that behavior itself is
                                            > > different, and it is different precisely because there is no
                                            > > sense of "me" doing it - no mind-chatter dominating and
                                            > controlling
                                            > > action.
                                            > > ... It is no longer "self-conscious" behavior.
                                            >
                                            > G: you have forgotten yourself for a moment.... life is simply
                                            > unfolding ... there is no need to hold any identity in place for
                                            it to
                                            > spontaneously move on the wings of Being ... Love and Being
                                            > simply are.... when not pursued or attempted they are simply
                                            > the outflow of Truth which is Now....
                                            **** T: Ahhh - to forget myself! What a relief that would be!
                                            Hahahaha!
                                            "... there is no need to hold any identity in place for it to
                                            > spontaneously move on the wings of Being ... Love and Being
                                            > simply are ..." (Ganga)
                                            ... Music to my ears - may it come to pass!

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > T: > > > I always wonder if such moments of "direct contact"
                                            > > > > reveal the possibility of a whole different way
                                            > > > > of living and being? A living from the heart, and not the
                                            > head.
                                            > > > > ... A way of living expressed by "The Awakened Ones".
                                            >
                                            > G: one needs not live from the head... nor from guilt or
                                            > emotional need or desire or good deeds which may sometimes
                                            > masquerade as Love... the motivations of the head that may be
                                            > masked as heart... these are not heart .. these are the closed
                                            > heart ... the substitute happenings which do not allow the heart
                                            > to breathe and expand into IS.... Heart is Being once the masks
                                            > are set aside for clarity ....
                                            ****T: Yes, when the head is not dominating and controlling - here
                                            comes the heart!
                                            ... Oh, boy!!!

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > > J: Those "Awakened Ones" live just like you. You are no
                                            > > > different than they.
                                            >
                                            > > **** T: I cannot say for sure who is and who is not "Awakened",
                                            > > but from what I have observed there seems to be a
                                            > fundamental > psychological difference in the one whose mind
                                            > is still. ... The stilled mind appears to function much
                                            differently
                                            > than the mind that is always preoccupied with it own
                                            > "mind-chatter", the mind that remains fully identified with its
                                            own
                                            > individual personal drama and story-line - the mind that
                                            > continues to suffers so.
                                            >
                                            > G: it is a different paradigm ... no story to maintain... no
                                            > second guessing or hidden motives or agendas... life is as it
                                            > is..... moment to moment .... simplicity ...
                                            simplicity ....
                                            > simplicity..... waves come and go like momentary ripples and
                                            > the quietude returns like a knife cutting waters cannot keep the
                                            > waters from merging immediately in a cohesive whole.... can
                                            > one tell where the knife just passed? No ... it came and
                                            went ...
                                            > one moment and then over... the ocean returns to its natural
                                            > state.... this is living within the stilled mind ...
                                            **** T: So, because the one who lives in Silence does not identity
                                            with the chatter it has no pull - just as a knife passes through the
                                            water?
                                            Hmmm - interesting?

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > T: > > > I guess one will never know until one is able
                                            > > > > to actually live one's daily life beyond the
                                            > > > > constant dominance and control of one's "mind-chatter",
                                            > > > > ... And one's identification with it.
                                            >
                                            > G: one moment it simply occurs.... it all falls away.... but
                                            that
                                            > doesn't come unless one prepares to receive it ....
                                            **** T: Prepare? Can one prepare to receive this?
                                            Do you mean the dismantling of one's personal identity, which is
                                            sustained by the mind-chatter,
                                            ... Through meditation, self-inquiry, and surrender?

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > > J: Mind's chatter, leaves rustle. They are no different.
                                            > > > Free of identity or bound by it, we all live by the seat
                                            > > > of our pants.
                                            >
                                            > > **** T: Is there then not a living in which this struggle is no
                                            > > longer present? Sure, there may be physical difficulties - no
                                            > doubt, but is psychological confusion and suffering always
                                            > inevitable?
                                            >
                                            > G: no they are not inevitable.... problems appear to come and
                                            > go ... but they are only problems as long as there is an
                                            > attachment to outcome or process...... once let go it is simply
                                            > another unfolding adventure one waits to see how it plays out....
                                            **** T: So if there is no attachment to the outcome there is no
                                            psychological conflict or suffering with regard to whatever may
                                            happen to you in life - even though there may be physical pain and
                                            suffering? So there must be no psychological resistance to what may
                                            come - only surrender,
                                            ... Although physically you may struggle and work very hard to
                                            correct the various difficulties that one may have to contend with
                                            in daily life?

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > T: > > > I think that this is perhaps the extraordinary value of
                                            > > meditation?
                                            >
                                            > G: it is the outcome of meditation.... meditation once settled
                                            > needs nothing to maintain it ..... it is not an effort ... it is
                                            not
                                            > something that is done - not a practice .... it is simply what
                                            > remains.....
                                            >
                                            *** T: Yes, meditation is what remains when the "goop" of mind-
                                            chatter
                                            has been and this attachment to personal identity no longer
                                            controls one's life.
                                            ... Then meditation and life are no longer separate.

                                            >
                                            > > > > With love and affection,
                                            > > > > Tony
                                            >
                                            > shanti om
                                          • Jeff Belyea
                                            ****T: Yes, just let go ! ... This is the dilemma I face: For some reason I don t spontaneously let go , and of course any effort I make consciously to let
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                              ****T: Yes, just "let go"!
                                              ... This is the dilemma I face: For some reason I
                                              don't
                                              spontaneously "let go", and of course any effort I
                                              make consciously
                                              to let go, only make "me" appear in even more
                                              strength, because there
                                              I am again, trying very hard to let go - holding
                                              on to "letting go"!
                                              So why does one hold on?
                                              ... Is it because the habitual momentum of "mind-
                                              chatter" is so
                                              strong that it just keeps coming back again and
                                              again, or is it
                                              because one still has not understood fully the
                                              utter necessity to let
                                              go?
                                              Is it fear of death?

                                              Hi Tony -

                                              You are onto something here.
                                              The fear is of an "ego" death.
                                              We are so accustomed to our
                                              identification with our own
                                              thoughts, our mind-chatter,
                                              that we have given up just
                                              a little piece of our heart.

                                              This is why so much us is
                                              made of a death and rebirth
                                              metaphor for enlightenment
                                              and realization of our true
                                              identity. We must be willing
                                              to risk the ego death, while
                                              everything in us tells us
                                              that this ego is all we have
                                              and all we are.

                                              This is the great lie that
                                              blocks the doorway to our
                                              enlightenment and realization.
                                              Until we are ready to once
                                              and for all surrender the
                                              ego identification, we are
                                              caught in a limited view;
                                              brought on by cultural
                                              conditioning that has so
                                              handsomely rewarded us
                                              for right answers, objective
                                              truths and that has
                                              instilled in us a false
                                              separate identity from
                                              the One, God, Source, or
                                              whatever spiritual icon
                                              is the politically correct
                                              ineffable du jour.

                                              Meditation quiets the mind
                                              and potentially re-opens a
                                              door to recovering the very
                                              beautiful heart "knowledge"
                                              that is our real and most
                                              precious identity. It may
                                              take unique energy and a
                                              great persistence, but all
                                              who have made the journey
                                              witness to its priceless
                                              value. Everything else
                                              takes MasterCard.

                                              All the love,

                                              Jeff
                                            • G
                                              ... wrote: ... though I ... compulsion to ... resist and suppress it. G: one cannot suppress it as that only backfires.... but perhaps it
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, asimpjoy
                                                <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                                ...
                                                > **** T: "... so what is it that precipitates a return to mind and the
                                                > identifications ..."(Ganga)
                                                > I don't know!
                                                > ... The mind-chatter seems to be habitual, because even
                                                though I
                                                > understand "intellectually" that I should not "pick it up again"
                                                > it comes back anyways - and I'm off again, until the next brief
                                                > moment of unselfconscious stillness.
                                                > ... What makes one come out of it? Why is there this
                                                compulsion to
                                                > keep the mind-chatter going? Is it because of identity and the
                                                > compulsion to survive - the inability to face the complete
                                                > psychological death of whom I believe myself to be?
                                                > If I try not to pick it up again, then there I am again making effort
                                                > chattering about not picking up the mind-chatter - trying to
                                                resist and suppress it.

                                                G: one cannot suppress it as that only backfires.... but perhaps
                                                it is the unknown what will happen if i actually let go of it .... the
                                                fear of losing something..... of having to give up something...

                                                > **** T: Yes! All at once all personal problems seem to vanish -
                                                it is the complete absence of all inward psychological conflict,
                                                > ... And in those brief moments there comes a natural,
                                                spontaneous affection, and a calm passionate interest in the
                                                present moment. It is only in those moments that I'm no longer
                                                weighed down by the "mind-chatter" of my own personal
                                                "story-line", and its burdensome identity.

                                                G: so enquire into what you are and are not.... Neti Neti pare it
                                                away.... look at it all point blankly .....


                                                > > > **** T: Again, I'm only trying to say that behavior itself is
                                                > > > different, and it is different precisely because there is no
                                                > > > sense of "me" doing it - no mind-chatter dominating and
                                                > > controlling action. ... It is no longer "self-conscious" behavior.

                                                G: and so this is what remains... this spontaneous
                                                happening... which has no sense of a self consciousness....

                                                .
                                                > **** T: Prepare? Can one prepare to receive this?
                                                > Do you mean the dismantling of one's personal identity, which
                                                is sustained by the mind-chatter,
                                                > ... Through meditation, self-inquiry, and surrender?

                                                G: yes.... either that or a point comes where there is nothing
                                                left but self confrontation....

                                                > **** T: So if there is no attachment to the outcome there is no
                                                > psychological conflict or suffering with regard to whatever may
                                                > happen to you in life - even though there may be physical pain
                                                and suffering? So there must be no psychological resistance to
                                                what may come - only surrender,
                                                > ... Although physically you may struggle and work very hard to
                                                > correct the various difficulties that one may have to contend
                                                with in daily life?

                                                G: it is struggle if the mind conceives it to be so.... otherwise it
                                                is only another moment with what is at hand.....


                                                > *** T: Yes, meditation is what remains when the "goop" of
                                                mind- chatter has been and this attachment to personal identity
                                                no longer controls one's life.
                                                ... Then meditation and life are no longer separate.

                                                G: then there is simply Being.....


                                                > > > > > With love and affection,
                                                > > > > > Tony

                                                shanti om
                                              • asimpjoy
                                                ... **** T: Is there not a seeing without the seer? Doesn t this happen when the observer is no longer self-consciously separate from the observed? ... It
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "jodyrrr"
                                                  <jodyrrr@y...> wrote:
                                                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, asimpjoy
                                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > [snip]
                                                  >
                                                  > > **** T: I only use the word "comprehend" in an attempt to
                                                  > > express what is taking place, but, actually - at that moment,
                                                  > > there is no self-conscious separate entity present, only a seeing
                                                  > > what is there - but not as a separate observer, rather it is
                                                  > > more like a being one with what is there - "unselfconsciously".
                                                  >
                                                  > If there is a "seeing" of something, then there must be a "seer"
                                                  > and a "seen." You saw that you were more free, therefore
                                                  > there was some kind of "you" observing the increased freedom.
                                                  **** T: Is there not a seeing without the seer? Doesn't this
                                                  happen when the observer is no longer self-consciously separate from
                                                  the observed?
                                                  ... It seems that perception can be aware of "what is" without
                                                  the function of self-identity, and it is only later, after the
                                                  experience is over, that one remembers it and says, "I have had the
                                                  experience".

                                                  >
                                                  > > > J: Whether in the usual or a different light, the one
                                                  > > > comprehending is still a separate entity "having"
                                                  > > > the understanding.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > **** T: Yes, of course, but in what I am attempting to describe,
                                                  > > the separate entity only comes in *afterwards*, because, at the
                                                  time
                                                  > > of direct contact, the "mind-chatter" is not active, and so no
                                                  self-
                                                  > > conscious entity is present.
                                                  >
                                                  > There must have been an observer, otherwise there would
                                                  > be nothing to report. That is, the mind-chatter stopped and
                                                  > your usual mode of perception stopped with it, yet there was
                                                  > still an entity present to remember the experience of no
                                                  > mind-chatter.
                                                  **** T: No, not at the moment of "experiencing"!
                                                  ... It is only afterwards that memory recalls the experience and
                                                  incorporates it into the "mind-chatter", and builds it into one's
                                                  personal story-line and identity.
                                                  ... Nevertheless, I still think memory can be a valid function, and
                                                  that it doesn't necessarily need to "clutter" the mind and strengthen
                                                  identity.

                                                  >
                                                  > > > > During these moments my behavior also changes!
                                                  > > > > It becomes more spontaneous and free, because the
                                                  > > > > controlling factor seems to be gone!
                                                  > > > > ... And then, it seems, only sensitivity
                                                  > > > > to the present moment determines my behavior.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Who engages in behavior, whether robotically or more
                                                  > > > spontaneous or free?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > **** T: Again, I'm only trying to say that behavior itself is
                                                  > > different, and it is different precisely because there is no
                                                  > > sense of "me" doing it - no mind-chatter dominating and
                                                  controlling
                                                  > > action.
                                                  > > ... It is no longer "self-conscious" behavior.
                                                  >
                                                  > Yet there is still an observation being done, and this always
                                                  > entails an observer and an observed.
                                                  **** T: No, I don't think so. Awareness is direct contact and direct
                                                  perception - without the observer,
                                                  ... Only then is mind-chatter unable to create separation.

                                                  >
                                                  > > > > I always wonder if such moments of "direct contact"
                                                  > > > > reveal the possibility of a whole different way
                                                  > > > > of living and being? A living from the heart, and not the
                                                  head.
                                                  > > > > ... A way of living expressed by "The Awakened Ones".
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > J: Those "Awakened Ones" live just like you. You are no
                                                  > > > different than they.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > **** T: I cannot say for sure who is and who is not "Awakened",
                                                  > > but from what I have observed there seems to be a fundamental
                                                  > > psychological difference in the one whose mind is still.
                                                  >
                                                  > Of course. However, a still mind is not a condition of awakening.
                                                  > That is, one may know themselves as Brahman and still have a mind
                                                  > that functions, indeed may even be "cluttered" at times.
                                                  **** T: I cannot say, because I have not lost my identity with my
                                                  mind-chatter, but it seems to be only a matter of attachment and
                                                  identification.
                                                  ... That is, if you have no attachment to, and are not
                                                  identified with, the "clutter" that passes through the mind, then it
                                                  may be possible to remain altogether centered in Silence - regardless
                                                  of whatever may come!

                                                  >
                                                  > > ... The stilled mind appears to function much differently than
                                                  the
                                                  > > mind that is always preoccupied with it own "mind-chatter", the
                                                  mind
                                                  > > that remains fully identified with its own individual personal
                                                  drama
                                                  > > and story-line - the mind that continues to suffers so.
                                                  >
                                                  > How can a stilled mind function at all? Is not the clutter also
                                                  > the function?
                                                  **** T: Yes! Of course it can! It then functions spontaneously, and
                                                  only as needed - and from direct perceptual contact of the present
                                                  moment,
                                                  ... And is no longer habitually driven by the compulsions and motives
                                                  dictated by mind-chatter and its fictitious identity - the "self".

                                                  >
                                                  > It's not the mind that's the problem, it's the idea that we are
                                                  > the mind's activity. We aren't, nor were we ever. However,
                                                  > some are beset by the very common misunderstanding that
                                                  > they are the "entity" they believe themselves to be. When the
                                                  > clarity of jnana is established, it is known that the entity is
                                                  > an illusion, a mere idea that is thrown off. However, the mind
                                                  > keeps right on ticking, like that famous bunny on tv.
                                                  **** T: Yes, the entity is only an illusion, the one which we believe
                                                  our self to be.
                                                  ... And yes, of course, the mind keeps "ticking", but it is no longer
                                                  all the time preoccupied with incessant "mind-chatter", and so it is
                                                  no longer controlled by the delusions of this false entity you thought
                                                  you were. That is when the mind is free.

                                                  >
                                                  > > > > I guess one will never know until one is able
                                                  > > > > to actually live one's daily life beyond the
                                                  > > > > constant dominance and control of one's "mind-chatter",
                                                  > > > > ... And one's identification with it.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > J: Mind's chatter, leaves rustle. They are no different.
                                                  > > > Free of identity or bound by it, we all live by the seat
                                                  > > > of our pants.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > **** T: Is there then not a living in which this struggle is no
                                                  > > longer present? Sure, there may be physical difficulties - no
                                                  doubt,
                                                  > > but is psychological confusion and suffering always inevitable?
                                                  >
                                                  > Confusion and suffering cease for the one who knows who
                                                  > they are, yet the mind will continue to groan and complain.
                                                  **** T: I cannot say. Will the mind continue to "groan and complain"
                                                  if it is still, and if it has settled into Silence. Perhaps?
                                                  ... But I suppose, even if it does, it won't matter.

                                                  >
                                                  > [snip]
                                                • jodyrrr
                                                  ... That s not the kind of doubt I was talking about. Let s take it from the top. ... Which you then followed with a passage which describes Nirvakalpa. Note
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G" <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > J:; > Ganga, tell us truthfully, is your mind absolutely free from
                                                    > doubt?
                                                    >
                                                    > G: yes absolutely and totally...... after Nirvikalpa my guru
                                                    > questioned me .... he asked .... are you convinced ? i said no...
                                                    > for that would contain doubt within it .... there is no doubt
                                                    > Source simply IS ... (Pregnant) Void IS ... in Absolute i am not
                                                    > nor ever have been ... if the world vanishes and is destroyed
                                                    > within the next heartbeat it doesn't matter in the least for Source
                                                    > IS and remains undisturbed .... for it has no risings ... it simply
                                                    > is and i am That .... end of story ... nothing to take back ...
                                                    > illusions stripped bare.....

                                                    That's not the kind of doubt I was talking about.

                                                    Let's take it from the top.

                                                    > Jody: Confusion and suffering cease for the one who knows who
                                                    > they are, yet the mind will continue to groan and complain.

                                                    > G: minds do not necessarily continue to groan and complain ....

                                                    Which you then followed with a passage which describes Nirvakalpa.

                                                    Note my use of the term 'cease', as in "confusion and suffering cease."
                                                    That means end. That is, for the one who knows who they are, there
                                                    is no doubt about who they are. However, if you smack that one
                                                    on the ass, they may say "ouch!" That's what I'm talking about.

                                                    It's the same with doubt. Not doubt about who I am, or doubt about
                                                    who you are, but doubt about which jacket to take, doubt about
                                                    what kind of oil to put into my truck, doubt about what birthday
                                                    present to get for my niece. These doubts are part and parcel of
                                                    life. If you have a body, these sorts of doubts may cross your
                                                    mind, whether or not you know who you really are, and knowing
                                                    who you really are may not affect your having these sorts of
                                                    doubts at all.

                                                    [snip]

                                                    > G: no this is a passage that says the the rambling mind is not it
                                                    > .... and is not going to get it, or be it ..... so of course those
                                                    > within the minds doubts are going to attempt to place this in a
                                                    > light other than what it is...... perhaps read more Ramana...
                                                    > his mind was also stilled .... there remained in essense for him
                                                    > no mind - for the risings in mind are empty ....
                                                    > Sahaja is within a natural oneness and that contains also No
                                                    > Doubt.... for if doubt is then Sahaja is not....

                                                    Right. In sahaja there is no doubt about who you really are,
                                                    but there may be some doubt about having that candy bar
                                                    after lunch.

                                                    [snip]

                                                    > G: if you are clinging to the conditionings then that is not it.....
                                                    > Parabdha remains it plays out.... it does not have to be
                                                    > clung to ... nor does it need to be observed...
                                                    > you see it as conditionings yet conditionings may be broken
                                                    > and simply residule Parabdha be playing out.... please
                                                    > understand what goes and what remains.... you are
                                                    > judging this with the eyes of a common man - not in the
                                                    > light of freedom from bondage....

                                                    I'm astonished that you would see me in this light, but I'm
                                                    not surprised as my views are often in refutation of yours.

                                                    I guess that's one way of protecting your turf.

                                                    > J: > I'd chalk that passage up to Indian hyperbole and ancient
                                                    > > history and move on.
                                                    >
                                                    > G: of course you would ... because they belay your condition
                                                    > as that of limited rather than complete experience - that
                                                    > settles in time to simply Being ..... we have
                                                    > had this same discussion some time ago ....
                                                    >
                                                    > why do you respect Sri Ramana and yet the next minute
                                                    > call this indian hyperbole.... Sri Ramana was the living
                                                    > truth of this very *hyperbole*......
                                                    >
                                                    > remember the Tripura Rihasyah ? you before doubted the
                                                    > stilled mind .... it is quite clear ... it can and does exist ....
                                                    > because you still struggle with minds ideas -
                                                    > conditionings- and ramblings do not think that all do .....
                                                    >
                                                    > you had a momentary experience and then kept taking
                                                    > back the self cognition and mind with all it's foibles and
                                                    > problems, it is this that you still wrestle with ....
                                                    >
                                                    > perhaps you are simply coming to accept yourself as you
                                                    > are ... that is fine .... nothing wrong in that at all.....

                                                    Interesting how you bring up a private discussion we had
                                                    when you were in my home to present evidence of my lack
                                                    of understanding. More turf guarding I guess.

                                                    In some quarters that's known as a cheap shot, but it's not
                                                    like you haven't done that before...
                                                  • G
                                                    J: Interesting how you bring up a private discussion we had ... G: you read into the original post what you wanted... and related it * as something of
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Mar 31, 2003
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                                                      J: Interesting how you bring up a private discussion we had
                                                      > when you were in my home to present evidence of my lack
                                                      > of understanding. More turf guarding I guess.
                                                      >
                                                      > In some quarters that's known as a cheap shot, but it's not
                                                      > like you haven't done that before...

                                                      G: you read into the original post what you wanted... and
                                                      related it * as something of import when at most it is * only a
                                                      transient passing blurb...... is this type of a hic-cup so important
                                                      as to debate it .....

                                                      get over it and come off of the *private* discussion trip ... this
                                                      advice and discussion was listed quite openly on one of the
                                                      other sites... it was an open online discussion.... if you would
                                                      like i could look up the dialogs and where they may be found.....

                                                      either stop with the cheap shot venue or i *will* speak of what
                                                      we spoke of .... then the cheap shot *will* apply.... so quit
                                                      playing the wounded party .... throwing out the cheap shot
                                                      remark....

                                                      turf guarding my dear is one of your specialties..... you do it
                                                      constantly ... why this need to turn everything into some big
                                                      debate? or to find some hidden or overt meaning other than
                                                      what is said at face value.... ? really jody give it a rest..... i am
                                                      so tired of these antics on the lines....

                                                      there aren't any cheap shots if there is nothing to hide and what
                                                      is being said is not something fabricated or an inuendo with no
                                                      basis ........

                                                      truth isn't a cheap shot.... unless you are parading as
                                                      something you are not..... then i guess it stings....
                                                    • satkartar7
                                                      hi Tony, I find, that I share *understandings* with you [snip] **** T: I only use the word comprehend in an attempt to express what is taking place, but,
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Mar 31, 2003
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                                                        hi Tony, I find, that I share *understandings* with you

                                                        [snip]

                                                        **** T: I only use the word "comprehend" in an attempt to express what is taking place, but, actually - at that moment,
                                                        there is no self-conscious separate entity present, only a seeing
                                                        what is there - but not as a separate
                                                        observer, rather it is more like a being one
                                                        with what is there - "unselfconsciously".
                                                        >
                                                        > Jody: If there is a "seeing" of something, then there must be a "seer"
                                                        > and a "seen." You saw that you were more free, therefore
                                                        > there was some kind of "you" observing the increased freedom.

                                                        **** T: Is there not a seeing without the seer? Doesn't this
                                                        > happen when the observer is no longer self-consciously separate from
                                                        > the observed?
                                                        > ... It seems that perception can be aware of "what is" without
                                                        > the function of self-identity,


                                                        Karta: the above is how I understand Nisargadatta's "keep awareness aware on awareness" the *witness* disappears in the NOW.

                                                        *T: and it is only later, after the
                                                        > experience is over, that one remembers it and says, "I have had the
                                                        > experience".
                                                        >
                                                        -----
                                                        **** T: Yes, of course, but in what I am attempting to describe,
                                                        > the separate entity only comes in *afterwards*, because, at the
                                                        > time
                                                        > of direct contact, the "mind-chatter" is not active, and so NO
                                                        > self-conscious entity is present.
                                                        ----
                                                        at the moment of "experiencing"!
                                                        > ... It is only afterwards that memory recalls the experience and
                                                        > incorporates it into the "mind-chatter",

                                                        **** T: No, I don't think so. Awareness is direct contact and direct
                                                        > perception - without the observer,
                                                        > ... Only then is mind-chatter unable to create separation.

                                                        peace-awareness-love, Karta
                                                      • asimpjoy
                                                        ... what is taking place, but, actually - at that moment, ... a seer ... from ... aware on awareness the *witness* disappears in the NOW. ... the ... direct
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Mar 31, 2003
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                                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "satkartar7"
                                                          <mi_nok@y...> wrote:
                                                          > hi Tony, I find, that I share *understandings* with you
                                                          **** T: Hi Karta! :-)
                                                          >
                                                          > [snip]
                                                          >
                                                          > **** T: I only use the word "comprehend" in an attempt to express
                                                          what is taking place, but, actually - at that moment,
                                                          > there is no self-conscious separate entity present, only a seeing
                                                          > what is there - but not as a separate
                                                          > observer, rather it is more like a being one
                                                          > with what is there - "unselfconsciously".
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Jody: If there is a "seeing" of something, then there must be
                                                          a "seer"
                                                          > > and a "seen." You saw that you were more free, therefore
                                                          > > there was some kind of "you" observing the increased freedom.
                                                          >
                                                          > **** T: Is there not a seeing without the seer? Doesn't this
                                                          > > happen when the observer is no longer self-consciously separate
                                                          from
                                                          > > the observed?
                                                          > > ... It seems that perception can be aware of "what is" without
                                                          > > the function of self-identity,
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Karta: the above is how I understand Nisargadatta's "keep awareness
                                                          aware on awareness" the *witness* disappears in the NOW.
                                                          **** T: Yes, it appears to be so.
                                                          >
                                                          > *T: and it is only later, after the
                                                          > > experience is over, that one remembers it and says, "I have had
                                                          the
                                                          > > experience".
                                                          > >
                                                          > -----
                                                          > **** T: Yes, of course, but in what I am attempting to describe,
                                                          > > the separate entity only comes in *afterwards*, because, at the
                                                          > > time
                                                          > > of direct contact, the "mind-chatter" is not active, and so NO
                                                          > > self-conscious entity is present.
                                                          > ----
                                                          > at the moment of "experiencing"!
                                                          > > ... It is only afterwards that memory recalls the experience and
                                                          > > incorporates it into the "mind-chatter",
                                                          >
                                                          > **** T: No, I don't think so. Awareness is direct contact and
                                                          direct
                                                          > > perception - without the observer,
                                                          > > ... Only then is mind-chatter unable to create separation.
                                                          >
                                                          > peace-awareness-love, Karta
                                                          **** T: :-)
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