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  • G
    Namaste - Let s see if we can all band together to get this site back on track .... in order to do this it will require restraint not to respond to off topic
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 27, 2003
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      Namaste -

      Let's see if we can all band together to get this site back on
      track .... in order to do this it will require restraint not to respond
      to off topic posts ... no matter how blatant or juicy they may be....

      i think that it can be turned around here ... that people can start
      coming back and posting their experiences of meditation ... and
      can have others sharing openly those things which have
      worked and the wisdom from their own journeys....

      not everyone is at the same level of wisdom .... let's meet
      people where they are .... rather than speaking over their heads
      with philosophy's that may only serve to confuse them ....

      if others come that are still within practices let's respect that ...

      if they are seeking to get out of practices then speak to that ....

      we know there is the Absolute One and the transient many ...
      there is a place where Advaita/Dvaita meet ... let us seek that
      meeting place .... and share out of Love not power....

      shanti om
    • Michael Read
      ... that ... Hello, one and many? a bit contradictory even though it is the general thought. just the one, appearing as the many. it has always been right
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 27, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
        <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
        > Namaste -
        >
        > we know there is the Absolute One and the transient many ...
        > there is a place where Advaita/Dvaita meet ... let us seek
        that
        > meeting place .... and share out of Love not power....
        >
        > shanti om

        Hello,

        one and many? a bit contradictory even though it is the general
        thought.

        just the one, appearing as the many.

        it has always been right here. there is a buddhist saying, "No one
        ever becomes a buddha. One simple stops imagining that they are
        something else."

        getting there is half the fun,

        michael
      • G
        ... one ... are ... G: on the contrary there is nothing contradictory in this at all...... like a thread through pearls so is the Absolute.... if it is always
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 27, 2003
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          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Michael
          Read" <maread@t...> wrote:
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
          > <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
          > > Namaste -
          > >
          > > we know there is the Absolute One and the transient many
          ...
          > > there is a place where Advaita/Dvaita meet ... let us seek
          > that
          > > meeting place .... and share out of Love not power....
          > >
          > > shanti om
          >
          > Hello,
          >
          > one and many? a bit contradictory even though it is the general
          > thought.
          >
          > just the one, appearing as the many.
          >
          > it has always been right here. there is a buddhist saying, "No
          one
          > ever becomes a buddha. One simple stops imagining that they
          are
          > something else."
          >
          > getting there is half the fun,
          >
          > michael

          G: on the contrary there is nothing contradictory in this at all......

          like a thread through pearls so is the Absolute....

          if it is always here - then one would not need to awaken to
          the fact that it is always right here.... if it is always here
          where was there to go ? the journey takes one from here to
          there and back full circle ... but without the journey it is not
          known.... that is why suffering runs the show until the
          illusory self is seen through .... it is only seen through by
          the journey......

          full circle ..
        • Michael Read
          that is why suffering runs the show until the ... by ... seen through by whom? that s the fun part. the reality or the absolute or the infinite is also the
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 27, 2003
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            that is why suffering runs the show until the
            > illusory self is seen through .... it is only seen through
            by
            > the journey......
            >
            > full circle ..

            seen through by whom? that's the fun part.

            the reality or the absolute or the infinite is also the impermanent
            the transitory the illusion itself and that which has been called the
            ultimate and the unchangeable is no different than that which appears
            as thought.

            there is nowhere the absolute is not. there is the belief in separate
            and somehow lower or an idea of inferior beings seeking to rejoin
            with some higher state or purified state or sanctified state.

            to know that you are not separate comes as quite a surprise after
            believing that you were something less for so much of your life.

            now how can i say that anyone is separate from that which fills all
            of the cosmos? i can't. all the drama playing out is being played out
            by the absolute. no one is left out and no life, with all it may
            contain, is worthless.

            ah well,

            michael
          • G
            M: there is nowhere the absolute is not. there is the belief in separate and somehow lower or an idea of inferior beings seeking to rejoin with some higher
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 27, 2003
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              M: > there is nowhere the absolute is not. there is the belief in
              separate and somehow lower or an idea of inferior beings
              seeking to rejoin with some higher state or purified state or
              sanctified state.

              G: i don't believe that i ever conveyed anything that says the
              Absolute is somewhere separate .... nor that there are inferior
              beings ... i have said there are those living within illusion... that
              is quite a different matter, than these words which have never
              been said....

              M: > to know that you are not separate comes as quite a surprise
              after believing that you were something less for so much of your
              life.

              G: indeed ..... and so what was it that believed it was
              something else ? could that be the illusory identity that seeks
              the Truth ?


              M: > now how can i say that anyone is separate from that which
              fills all of the cosmos? i can't. all the drama playing out is being
              played out by the absolute. no one is left out and no life, with all
              it may contain, is worthless.

              G: right and that is known only after a paradigm shift of
              awareness ....

              >
              > ah well,
              >
              > michael

              shanti om ...g...
            • Jason Fishman
              ... J: Thank you for this Micheal, much appreciation! ... J: It is not in what you convey as something . This illusion that people live in isn t simply an
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                --- G <crystalkundalini@...> wrote:
                >
                > M: > there is nowhere the absolute is not. there is
                > the belief in
                > separate and somehow lower or an idea of inferior
                > beings
                > seeking to rejoin with some higher state or
                > purified state or
                > sanctified state.

                J: Thank you for this Micheal, much appreciation!

                > G: i don't believe that i ever conveyed anything
                > that says the
                > Absolute is somewhere separate .... nor that there
                > are inferior
                > beings ... i have said there are those living
                > within illusion... that
                > is quite a different matter, than these words which
                > have never
                > been said....

                J: It is not in what you convey as "something". This
                illusion that people live in isn't simply an illusion
                of their making. People wake-up everyday, do the do,
                say the say, feel the feel. If one were to say "I no
                longer suffer" this suffering you no longer do puts
                you aside from those who do, this asideness cannot be
                expressed as "not seperate from another" and is a
                continuation of the illusion. The illusion is the "I",
                the "no", the "longer" and the "suffer". The illusion
                is conveying a term to another being as if there was a
                being that required a term to be defined by a you.
                People are on different levels of understanding, this
                is also an illusion, for that understanding is not
                seperate from anothers required understanding of some
                place they should be because you are there. You have
                called this a round and round of simple word play or a
                conceptual understanding, then you point to an
                absolute or a sage as is if there is an absolute or a
                sage that is outside of this union. To point to
                something in any case, conceptual, spiritual,
                physical, absolute is not seperate from the illusion
                of seperateness. I'd love to tell you your right or
                wrong, but even that cannot be done, for it is not
                outside of this union.

                > M: > to know that you are not separate comes as
                > quite a surprise
                > after believing that you were something less for so
                > much of your
                > life.
                >
                > G: indeed ..... and so what was it that
                > believed it was
                > something else ? could that be the illusory
                > identity that seeks
                > the Truth ?
                >

                J: Yes and this suprise is not surpassed. You and I
                cannot be, yet we have every potential to be. This
                union is definable as an "absolute" most definately
                and no one benifits from this absolute any more or
                less then "I".

                >
                > M: > now how can i say that anyone is separate from
                > that which
                > fills all of the cosmos? i can't. all the drama
                > playing out is being
                > played out by the absolute. no one is left out and
                > no life, with all
                > it may contain, is worthless.
                >
                > G: right and that is known only after a paradigm
                > shift of
                > awareness ....


                J: Paradigm shifts are most certainly fun and
                exciting, yet one is so bound by them that they change
                a whole being to a something else. This change to a
                something else is also part of the grand illusion of
                seperateness, bound by unions play. I have always been
                happy for you that you have discovered something. I
                have discovered something also, be happy for me. I'm
                doing cartwheels within this union, join me and we can
                do them together.

                Cartwheels of peace and love

                > >
                > > ah well,
                > >
                > > michael
                >
                > shanti om ...g...
                >
                >


                __________________________________________________
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              • dan330033
                ... all...... ... here ... not ... by ... It is paradox. It is a journey that begins by not taking a journey. The first step is the last step. You take the
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                  <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Michael
                  > Read" <maread@t...> wrote:
                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                  > > <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                  > > > Namaste -
                  > > >
                  > > > we know there is the Absolute One and the transient many
                  > ...
                  > > > there is a place where Advaita/Dvaita meet ... let us seek
                  > > that
                  > > > meeting place .... and share out of Love not power....
                  > > >
                  > > > shanti om
                  > >
                  > > Hello,
                  > >
                  > > one and many? a bit contradictory even though it is the general
                  > > thought.
                  > >
                  > > just the one, appearing as the many.
                  > >
                  > > it has always been right here. there is a buddhist saying, "No
                  > one
                  > > ever becomes a buddha. One simple stops imagining that they
                  > are
                  > > something else."
                  > >
                  > > getting there is half the fun,
                  > >
                  > > michael
                  >
                  > G: on the contrary there is nothing contradictory in this at
                  all......
                  >
                  > like a thread through pearls so is the Absolute....
                  >
                  > if it is always here - then one would not need to awaken to
                  > the fact that it is always right here.... if it is always
                  here
                  > where was there to go ? the journey takes one from here to
                  > there and back full circle ... but without the journey it is
                  not
                  > known.... that is why suffering runs the show until the
                  > illusory self is seen through .... it is only seen through
                  by
                  > the journey......
                  >
                  > full circle ..

                  It is paradox.

                  It is a journey that begins
                  by not taking a journey.

                  The first step is the last step.

                  You take the first step over and over,
                  until it is the last step.

                  Suffering is believing that there is
                  an entity which needs to go
                  through a journey ...

                  -- Dan
                • dan330033
                  ... that ... being ... all ... True. Self-deception is the nemesis. There is one self-deceiving, and only that one can clear things up. The root of
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "G"
                    <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                    >
                    > M: > there is nowhere the absolute is not. there is the belief in
                    > separate and somehow lower or an idea of inferior beings
                    > seeking to rejoin with some higher state or purified state or
                    > sanctified state.
                    >
                    > G: i don't believe that i ever conveyed anything that says the
                    > Absolute is somewhere separate .... nor that there are inferior
                    > beings ... i have said there are those living within illusion...
                    that
                    > is quite a different matter, than these words which have never
                    > been said....
                    >
                    > M: > to know that you are not separate comes as quite a surprise
                    > after believing that you were something less for so much of your
                    > life.
                    >
                    > G: indeed ..... and so what was it that believed it was
                    > something else ? could that be the illusory identity that seeks
                    > the Truth ?
                    >
                    >
                    > M: > now how can i say that anyone is separate from that which
                    > fills all of the cosmos? i can't. all the drama playing out is
                    being
                    > played out by the absolute. no one is left out and no life, with
                    all
                    > it may contain, is worthless.
                    >
                    > G: right and that is known only after a paradigm shift of
                    > awareness ....
                    >
                    > >
                    > > ah well,
                    > >
                    > > michael
                    >
                    > shanti om ...g...

                    True.

                    Self-deception is the nemesis.

                    There is one self-deceiving, and only
                    that one can clear things up.

                    The root of self-deception is the belief
                    that something is gained by ignoring
                    the truth that is.

                    The end of self-deception is the end
                    of ignore-ance.

                    It doesn't involve anyone else.

                    No one else is making me accept
                    a distorted version of "what is,"
                    a split version of truth where
                    autonomously existing beings
                    can have experiences to be in.

                    -- Dan
                  • Michael Read
                    ... You are most welcome, Jason. ... Ah, there appear to be those living within illusion . Then there is the appearance of those living without illusion.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fishman
                      <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- G <crystalkundalini@h...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > M: > there is nowhere the absolute is not. there is
                      > > the belief in
                      > > separate and somehow lower or an idea of inferior
                      > > beings
                      > > seeking to rejoin with some higher state or
                      > > purified state or
                      > > sanctified state.
                      >
                      > J: Thank you for this Micheal, much appreciation!

                      You are most welcome, Jason.

                      >
                      > > G: i don't believe that i ever conveyed anything
                      > > that says the
                      > > Absolute is somewhere separate .... nor that there
                      > > are inferior
                      > > beings ... i have said there are those living
                      > > within illusion... that
                      > > is quite a different matter, than these words which
                      > > have never
                      > > been said....

                      Ah, there appear to be 'those living within illusion'.
                      Then there is the appearance of those living without illusion.
                      Either way it is more of the same - appearance.


                      >
                      > J: It is not in what you convey as "something". This
                      > illusion that people live in isn't simply an illusion
                      > of their making.

                      yah, this is an excellent point. while it could be argued that each
                      of us does live in a world-view of our own devising it can also be
                      posited that each of us holds a world-view largely shaped by finding
                      ourselves in the world as it is.

                      > People wake-up everyday, do the do,
                      > say the say, feel the feel. If one were to say "I no
                      > longer suffer" this suffering you no longer do puts
                      > you aside from those who do, this asideness cannot be
                      > expressed as "not seperate from another" and is a
                      > continuation of the illusion. The illusion is the "I",
                      > the "no", the "longer" and the "suffer".

                      well, that's illusion. suffering succotash!

                      > The illusion
                      > is conveying a term to another being as if there was a
                      > being that required a term to be defined by a you.
                      > People are on different levels of understanding, this
                      > is also an illusion, for that understanding is not
                      > seperate from anothers required understanding of some
                      > place they should be because you are there.
                      > You have
                      > called this a round and round of simple word play or a
                      > conceptual understanding, then you point to an
                      > absolute or a sage as is if there is an absolute or a
                      > sage that is outside of this union. To point to
                      > something in any case, conceptual, spiritual,
                      > physical, absolute is not seperate from the illusion
                      > of seperateness. I'd love to tell you your right or
                      > wrong, but even that cannot be done, for it is not
                      > outside of this union.
                      >
                      > > M: > to know that you are not separate comes as
                      > > quite a surprise
                      > > after believing that you were something less for so
                      > > much of your
                      > > life.
                      > >
                      > > G: indeed ..... and so what was it that
                      > > believed it was
                      > > something else ? could that be the illusory
                      > > identity that seeks
                      > > the Truth ?
                      > >
                      >
                      > J: Yes and this suprise is not surpassed. You and I
                      > cannot be, yet we have every potential to be. This
                      > union is definable as an "absolute" most definately
                      > and no one benifits from this absolute any more or
                      > less then "I".
                      >
                      > >
                      > > M: > now how can i say that anyone is separate from
                      > > that which
                      > > fills all of the cosmos? i can't. all the drama
                      > > playing out is being
                      > > played out by the absolute. no one is left out and
                      > > no life, with all
                      > > it may contain, is worthless.
                      > >
                      > > G: right and that is known only after a paradigm
                      > > shift of
                      > > awareness ....
                      >

                      in whose awareness?

                      >
                      > J: Paradigm shifts are most certainly fun and
                      > exciting, yet one is so bound by them that they change
                      > a whole being to a something else. This change to a
                      > something else is also part of the grand illusion of
                      > seperateness, bound by unions play. I have always been
                      > happy for you that you have discovered something. I
                      > have discovered something also, be happy for me. I'm
                      > doing cartwheels within this union, join me and we can
                      > do them together.
                      >
                      > Cartwheels of peace and love
                      >
                      > > >
                      > > > ah well,
                      > > >
                      > > > michael
                      > >
                      > > shanti om ...g...

                      handsprings of happiness,

                      michael
                    • G
                      ... G: then who s is it ? the illusion belongs to the bound ego.... J; People wake-up everyday, do the do, ... G: Christ did not suffer ... None of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                        > J: It is not in what you convey as "something". This
                        > illusion that people live in isn't simply an illusion
                        > of their making.

                        G: then who's is it ? the illusion belongs to the bound ego....


                        J; People wake-up everyday, do the do,
                        > say the say, feel the feel. If one were to say "I no
                        > longer suffer" this suffering you no longer do puts
                        > you aside from those who do, this asideness cannot be
                        > expressed as "not seperate from another" and is a
                        > continuation of the illusion.

                        G: Christ did not suffer ... None of the saints suffer .... None of
                        the writers of the texts of Liberation suffered.... they
                        may feel physical pain but, yes indeed suffering ends... this
                        does not mean that they are separate and put aside...

                        do you think that one who has walked through suffering cannot
                        relate to those in the midst of it ? Do you not know that
                        compassion may also know the pain of the world even though
                        not being caught up in it ....... must one be caught up in the pain
                        to be able to relate to others.... this is one of the grand
                        justifications that keeps ego in place.... thinking that realization
                        has been understood and simply accepted as a philosophy
                        keeps it's suffering and attempts to make it holy .... it want's to
                        drag others into its suffering ....

                        J: The illusion is the "I", the "no", the "longer" and the "suffer".

                        G: if you are suffering then at this point you are wrapped in
                        maya .... yes the illusion the dreamstate ... this is what
                        Awakening is about .... breaking the bondage of suffering ...
                        and the illusions that parade as the all ....


                        J; The illusion is conveying a term to another being as if there
                        was a being that required a term to be defined by a you.

                        G: double speak .... sounds brilliant goes no-where ....
                        means nothing....


                        J; > People are on different levels of understanding, this
                        > is also an illusion, for that understanding is not
                        > seperate from anothers required understanding of some
                        > place they should be because you are there.

                        G: ok so a burger king employee is simply under an illusion
                        that he doesn't know rocket scientist knowledge ....
                        he either knows it or he doesn't ... you can't put a burger
                        flipper in charge building a space shuttle ....

                        everyone can be where they want ... if you want to wallow
                        in suffering go for it .... just because i am out and state
                        so doesn't mean that you have to give yours up .....


                        J: You have called this a round and round of simple word play
                        or a conceptual understanding, then you point to an absolute or
                        a sage as is if there is an absolute or a sage that is outside of
                        this union.

                        G: would you like to put this round robin in a clear straight
                        sentence.... you have become so embroiled in your
                        circles that you can no longer speak in a simple clear
                        fashion .... Sages know union and Absolute ... you
                        point to this fallacy that everyone has the same knowledge
                        and wisdom .... the Sage knows that all are at core
                        level the same ( minus the ignorance that causes the
                        bondages and pain) ..... there are clearly some that
                        are in suffering - seeking - pain and depression and some
                        that are Not....


                        J: To point to something in any case, conceptual, spiritual,
                        > physical, absolute is not seperate from the illusion
                        > of seperateness. I'd love to tell you your right or
                        > wrong, but even that cannot be done, for it is not
                        > outside of this union.

                        G: then quit speaking.... all words bring separation ...
                        all words keep the revolving transient in place ...


                        > J: Paradigm shifts are most certainly fun and
                        > exciting, yet one is so bound by them that they change
                        > a whole being to a something else. This change to a
                        > something else is also part of the grand illusion of
                        > seperateness, bound by unions play. I have always been
                        > happy for you that you have discovered something. I
                        > have discovered something also, be happy for me. I'm
                        > doing cartwheels within this union, join me and we can
                        > do them together.

                        G: are you bound by your paradigm shift ? then it wasn't a
                        shift but another philosophical rising ... that brought not
                        liberation but simply another type of bondage .... why should i
                        be happy for you when you say it is a bondage... ?

                        you want me to be happy for you and i must join you ... but the
                        thought of you joining me is fought against .... why this
                        separation on your part when you say that nothing is separate ?

                        you may do spinning cartwheels going around and around into
                        dizzyness i prefer to walk straight myself ....

                        if you enjoy cartwheels though then go for it .... enjoy them ....
                        relish them .... savor them ...

                        i don't have to participate in them for them to have value for you
                        .....
                        > Cartwheels of peace and love

                        peace love and om
                      • judirhodes
                        ... state ... ******* You haven t gone anywhere, give it a goddamn rest why dontcha! Sheesh! Judi
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                          >
                          > everyone can be where they want ... if you want to wallow
                          > in suffering go for it .... just because i am out and
                          state
                          > so doesn't mean that you have to give yours up .....
                          >
                          >
                          *******

                          You haven't gone anywhere, give it a goddamn rest why dontcha!

                          Sheesh!

                          Judi
                        • judirhodes
                          ... wallow ... ****** Seriously Ganga, how stupid do you think we all are? What do you think this is, some kind of a turnip truck or something? ... Judi
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes"
                            <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > everyone can be where they want ... if you want to
                            wallow
                            > > in suffering go for it .... just because i am out and
                            > state
                            > > so doesn't mean that you have to give yours up .....
                            > >
                            > >
                            > *******
                            >
                            > You haven't gone anywhere, give it a goddamn rest why dontcha!
                            >
                            > Sheesh!
                            >
                            > Judi

                            ****** Seriously Ganga, how stupid do you think we all are?

                            What do you think this is, some kind of a turnip truck or something?

                            :-)

                            Judi
                          • judirhodes
                            ... something? ... ******* If there s anyone on the turnip truck around here, it s you! Judi
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes"
                              <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes"
                              > <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > everyone can be where they want ... if you want to
                              > wallow
                              > > > in suffering go for it .... just because i am out and
                              > > state
                              > > > so doesn't mean that you have to give yours up .....
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > *******
                              > >
                              > > You haven't gone anywhere, give it a goddamn rest why dontcha!
                              > >
                              > > Sheesh!
                              > >
                              > > Judi
                              >
                              > ****** Seriously Ganga, how stupid do you think we all are?
                              >
                              > What do you think this is, some kind of a turnip truck or
                              something?
                              >
                              > :-)
                              >
                              > Judi

                              ******* If there's anyone on the turnip truck around here, it's you!

                              Judi
                            • G
                              D It is paradox. G: yes it is a paradox ..... D It is a journey that begins ... G: one may think they are going somewhere but in the end one finds
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                                D> It is paradox.

                                G: yes it is a paradox .....

                                D> It is a journey that begins
                                > by not taking a journey.

                                G: one may think they are going somewhere but in the
                                end one finds themselves discovering what has always
                                been right here yet unknown ..... you have gone on the
                                longest journey which takes you to another level of right
                                here... right Now....

                                D> The first step is the last step.

                                G: the last step is the last step ....


                                D> You take the first step over and over,
                                > until it is the last step.

                                G: one continues on the journey one step at a time until
                                all steps fall away ....

                                D> Suffering is believing that there is
                                > an entity which needs to go
                                > through a journey ...

                                G: suffering is being an entity that has no journey but
                                suffering .... self is unmasked ... suffering ends....
                                celebration and life begin......

                                >
                                > -- Dan
                              • dan330033
                                ... D: Always right here... Always unknown ... Mistaking myself for something known, begins a long journey of steps ... The final step being before even the
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                                  > G: one may think they are going somewhere but in the
                                  > end one finds themselves discovering what has always
                                  > been right here yet unknown ..... you have gone on the
                                  > longest journey which takes you to another level of right
                                  > here... right Now....

                                  D: Always right here...

                                  Always unknown ...

                                  Mistaking myself for something known,
                                  begins a long journey of steps ...

                                  The final step being before even
                                  the first step of a me into the known
                                  was taken ...

                                  Paradoxical!


                                  > D> The first step is the last step.
                                  >
                                  > G: the last step is the last step ....

                                  D: The step that leaves no footprints is the step ...


                                  > D> You take the first step over and over,
                                  > > until it is the last step.
                                  >
                                  > G: one continues on the journey one step at a time until
                                  > all steps fall away ....

                                  Yes.

                                  Until the journey is walking itself,
                                  with no separate self ever involved ...

                                  > D> Suffering is believing that there is
                                  > > an entity which needs to go
                                  > > through a journey ...
                                  >
                                  > G: suffering is being an entity that has no journey but
                                  > suffering .... self is unmasked ... suffering ends....
                                  > celebration and life begin......

                                  Suffering is the self, trying to control and escape
                                  its suffering, which it is ... trying to
                                  control its thoughts, which it is ...
                                  trying to control its experience, which it is ...

                                  -- Dan
                                • devianandi
                                  Before the opening of the inner eye, the mind conceives of the goal as the infinite. This conception is based upon some symbolic image of infinity, such as
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                                    Before the opening of the inner eye, the mind conceives of the goal
                                    as the infinite. This conception is based upon some symbolic image
                                    of infinity, such as the sky or ocean, which suggests vastness. But
                                    such concepts have to be superseded by direct perception of the
                                    infinite. An aspirant sees the Self directly when their inner eye is
                                    opened. But when this happens, the mind is dazed by the perception
                                    of the Self, it loses the capacity to think clearly and mistakes the
                                    seeing of the Self for realization. Hence the illusion of being at
                                    the end of the Path while traversing it. In Sufi terminology this
                                    particular part of the Path is known as Mukameafasan, or the Abode of
                                    Delusion; it is in such difficult phases of the Path that the Master
                                    gives a push to the aspirant, so that they can pass on instead of
                                    getting caught up on the way.
                                  • G
                                    ... G: this is what remains .... ... G: the self in suffering seeks a way out ... the suffering gives the impetus to seek ... eventually one reaches a
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                                      > Until the journey is walking itself,
                                      > with no separate self ever involved ...

                                      G: this is what remains ....


                                      > Suffering is the self, trying to control and escape
                                      > its suffering, which it is ... trying to
                                      > control its thoughts, which it is ...
                                      > trying to control its experience, which it is ...
                                      >
                                      > -- Dan

                                      G: the self in suffering seeks a way out ... the suffering gives the
                                      impetus to seek ... eventually one reaches a point of absolute
                                      surrender ---- sometimes willingly .... that is the path ...

                                      there is nothing to *control* ... in attempting to control it is
                                      suppresed which only leads to more thoughts... the way is to
                                      enter into now ... relaxation .... witness ... these all lead the
                                      way to the mind stilling of its own accord.... it runs out of fuel ....

                                      if one doesn't fuel the fire it will burn itself out.....

                                      shanti om .
                                    • Jason Fishman
                                      ... J: Ahh, as is said of who maintains a something, like knowledge. This owning or beloging to a something has no relevence either. If one is said to own a
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                                        --- G <crystalkundalini@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > J: It is not in what you convey as "something".
                                        > This
                                        > > illusion that people live in isn't simply an
                                        > illusion
                                        > > of their making.
                                        >
                                        > G: then who's is it ? the illusion belongs to
                                        > the bound ego....


                                        J: Ahh, as is said of who maintains a something, like
                                        knowledge. This owning or beloging to a something has
                                        no relevence either. If one is said to own a car for
                                        example, who is really in ownership of this thing.
                                        This translates across the board of all or it doesn't
                                        translate at all, whether that thing is knowledge, a
                                        car or an ego one has nothing to own. Union really
                                        doesn't allow a single ownership, this earth,
                                        universe, this ALL belongs to ALL, regardless who
                                        holds the deed to it.

                                        > J; People wake-up everyday, do the do,
                                        > > say the say, feel the feel. If one were to say "I
                                        > no
                                        > > longer suffer" this suffering you no longer do
                                        > puts
                                        > > you aside from those who do, this asideness cannot
                                        > be
                                        > > expressed as "not seperate from another" and is a
                                        > > continuation of the illusion.
                                        >
                                        > G: Christ did not suffer ... None of the saints
                                        > suffer .... None of
                                        > the writers of the texts of Liberation suffered....
                                        > they
                                        > may feel physical pain but, yes indeed suffering
                                        > ends... this
                                        > does not mean that they are separate and put
                                        > aside...
                                        >
                                        > do you think that one who has walked through
                                        > suffering cannot
                                        > relate to those in the midst of it ? Do you not
                                        > know that
                                        > compassion may also know the pain of the world even
                                        > though
                                        > not being caught up in it ....... must one be
                                        > caught up in the pain
                                        > to be able to relate to others.... this is one
                                        > of the grand
                                        > justifications that keeps ego in place.... thinking
                                        > that realization
                                        > has been understood and simply accepted as a
                                        > philosophy
                                        > keeps it's suffering and attempts to make it holy
                                        > .... it want's to
                                        > drag others into its suffering ....

                                        J: This suffering is in and of itself, all. I know
                                        what your saying here. I do not disagree. Although,
                                        what I do see is a one pointing to another and saying
                                        because this is said, these others are not "it". This
                                        doesn't jib with unity, you as an entity with a
                                        perspective is "it" already. Dropping this perspective
                                        is "it" already, suffering is "it" already, to
                                        eliminate a something eliminates "it". Blow away all
                                        experiences and see them for what they are, as I have
                                        heard you say, is just another experience and still
                                        nothing gets blown away.

                                        > J: The illusion is the "I", the "no", the "longer"
                                        > and the "suffer".
                                        >
                                        > G: if you are suffering then at this point you
                                        > are wrapped in
                                        > maya .... yes the illusion the dreamstate ...
                                        > this is what
                                        > Awakening is about .... breaking the bondage of
                                        > suffering ...
                                        > and the illusions that parade as the all ....


                                        J: I agree here also. One is wrapped in maya, one is
                                        wrapped in illusion, one is in bondage that is very
                                        much freedom when a knowing occurs. Yet this knowing
                                        is also maya, is source, is absolute, it goes nowhere
                                        but back to itself over and over. You want to go
                                        somewhere, so you get into the car or hop on a plane
                                        and go somewhere else, absolute is this other place
                                        your wanting to go which includes the place you just
                                        left from.

                                        > J; The illusion is conveying a term to another
                                        > being as if there
                                        > was a being that required a term to be defined by a
                                        > you.
                                        >
                                        > G: double speak .... sounds brilliant goes
                                        > no-where ....
                                        > means nothing....


                                        J: Exactly, by god I think shes got it! Going
                                        no-where, without meaning... how limitless is that?
                                        Actually you already had it, I'm just being dramatic
                                        :)

                                        > J; > People are on different levels of
                                        > understanding, this
                                        > > is also an illusion, for that understanding is not
                                        > > seperate from anothers required understanding of
                                        > some
                                        > > place they should be because you are there.
                                        >
                                        > G: ok so a burger king employee is simply under
                                        > an illusion
                                        > that he doesn't know rocket scientist
                                        > knowledge ....
                                        > he either knows it or he doesn't ... you
                                        > can't put a burger
                                        > flipper in charge building a space shuttle
                                        > ....
                                        >
                                        > everyone can be where they want ... if you
                                        > want to wallow
                                        > in suffering go for it .... just because i
                                        > am out and state
                                        > so doesn't mean that you have to give yours
                                        > up .....

                                        J: This is also true, my bk buddy doesn't know how to
                                        build a rocket, yet maybe he does and just likes
                                        working at bk, it's less pressure ;) The illusion here
                                        is that he "can't" build a space shuttle, since he
                                        doesn't know how, nothing in which he cannot discover
                                        regardless if you tell him he's not there yet, because
                                        sages say so. Are we speaking about what a someone
                                        that knows a something or a knowing that requires no
                                        knowledge to be? I was thinking it was the later.

                                        > J: You have called this a round and round of
                                        > simple word play
                                        > or a conceptual understanding, then you point to an
                                        > absolute or
                                        > a sage as is if there is an absolute or a sage that
                                        > is outside of
                                        > this union.
                                        >
                                        > G: would you like to put this round robin in a
                                        > clear straight
                                        > sentence.... you have become so embroiled
                                        > in your
                                        > circles that you can no longer speak in a
                                        > simple clear
                                        > fashion .... Sages know union and
                                        > Absolute ... you
                                        > point to this fallacy that everyone has the
                                        > same knowledge
                                        > and wisdom .... the Sage knows that all
                                        > are at core
                                        > level the same ( minus the ignorance that
                                        > causes the
                                        > bondages and pain) ..... there are
                                        > clearly some that
                                        > are in suffering - seeking - pain and
                                        > depression and some
                                        > that are Not....

                                        J: Yes, you and I are quite embroiled, I'll have mine
                                        medium well, thank you :) Again, we are equal ground
                                        here, your knowing something that I don't doesn't
                                        change your suffering or knowing of no suffering, what
                                        works for one works for all or it doesn't work at all.
                                        We can certainly do the seeking/no seeking talk, but
                                        it's no different then this, the suffering/no
                                        suffering talk.

                                        > J: To point to something in any case, conceptual,
                                        > spiritual,
                                        > > physical, absolute is not seperate from the
                                        > illusion
                                        > > of seperateness. I'd love to tell you your right
                                        > or
                                        > > wrong, but even that cannot be done, for it is not
                                        > > outside of this union.
                                        >
                                        > G: then quit speaking.... all words bring
                                        > separation ...
                                        > all words keep the revolving transient in
                                        > place ...
                                        >

                                        J: I certainly can quite speaking! You and I know this
                                        circle of speak, yet we both do it, so I suppose
                                        neither of us can shut-up about it ;) How fun!


                                        > > J: Paradigm shifts are most certainly fun and
                                        > > exciting, yet one is so bound by them that they
                                        > change
                                        > > a whole being to a something else. This change to
                                        > a
                                        > > something else is also part of the grand illusion
                                        > of
                                        > > seperateness, bound by unions play. I have always
                                        > been
                                        > > happy for you that you have discovered something.
                                        > I
                                        > > have discovered something also, be happy for me.
                                        > I'm
                                        > > doing cartwheels within this union, join me and we
                                        > can
                                        > > do them together.
                                        >
                                        > G: are you bound by your paradigm shift ? then
                                        > it wasn't a
                                        > shift but another philosophical rising ... that
                                        > brought not
                                        > liberation but simply another type of bondage ....
                                        > why should i
                                        > be happy for you when you say it is a bondage... ?

                                        J: What's with the bondage? are you bound to this no
                                        bondage thing? Freedom already is the case, so is
                                        bondage, not sure where this is unclear.


                                        > you want me to be happy for you and i must join
                                        > you ... but the
                                        > thought of you joining me is fought against ....
                                        > why this
                                        > separation on your part when you say that nothing is
                                        > separate ?
                                        >
                                        > you may do spinning cartwheels going around and
                                        > around into
                                        > dizzyness i prefer to walk straight myself ....
                                        >
                                        > if you enjoy cartwheels though then go for it ....
                                        > enjoy them ....
                                        > relish them .... savor them ...
                                        >
                                        > i don't have to participate in them for them to
                                        > have value for you
                                        > .....

                                        J: no, you don't have to join me willingly, too bad
                                        your stuck with me. You can't get away, I'm a stalker
                                        that cannot be stopped, I am the absolute, run and
                                        hide, call the police, make it stop!! I love an
                                        absolute (with orange juice)! Why? Because I don't
                                        have a choice, well I do but why wallow in sorrow of
                                        that which I have no control or try to avoid that
                                        something that happens whether I want it to or not.
                                        Make mine a screwdriver, I'm such a lush ;)

                                        Peace and Love


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                                      • devianandi
                                        how can you possibly call yourself a self-mad man? i specifically recall creating you. GOD haha, very funny bob
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                                          "how can you possibly call yourself a self-mad man?
                                          i specifically recall creating you."
                                          GOD


                                          haha, very funny bob
                                        • Jason Fishman
                                          Nice to see an agreement, even a less agreeable one ;) As it always was, until it was known to not be an agreement. Peace and Love ...
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Mar 28, 2003
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                                            Nice to see an agreement, even a less agreeable one ;)
                                            As it always was, until it was known to not be an
                                            agreement.

                                            Peace and Love

                                            --- G <crystalkundalini@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Until the journey is walking itself,
                                            > > with no separate self ever involved ...
                                            >
                                            > G: this is what remains ....
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > Suffering is the self, trying to control and
                                            > escape
                                            > > its suffering, which it is ... trying to
                                            > > control its thoughts, which it is ...
                                            > > trying to control its experience, which it is
                                            > ...
                                            > >
                                            > > -- Dan
                                            >
                                            > G: the self in suffering seeks a way out ... the
                                            > suffering gives the
                                            > impetus to seek ... eventually one reaches a point
                                            > of absolute
                                            > surrender ---- sometimes willingly .... that is
                                            > the path ...
                                            >
                                            > there is nothing to *control* ... in attempting to
                                            > control it is
                                            > suppresed which only leads to more thoughts... the
                                            > way is to
                                            > enter into now ... relaxation .... witness ...
                                            > these all lead the
                                            > way to the mind stilling of its own accord.... it
                                            > runs out of fuel ....
                                            >
                                            > if one doesn't fuel the fire it will burn itself
                                            > out.....
                                            >
                                            > shanti om .
                                            >
                                            >


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