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#1 Life practice -Jason

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  • tosime
    Hi Jason, This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for giving me a better understanding of the nothing perspective. I was very intrigued with the 4 factor , the
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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      Hi Jason,

      This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for giving me a better understanding of
      the "nothing" perspective.

      I was very intrigued with the "4 factor", the witness stance. There is one
      aspect I would like more clarity on. When you say that the witness stance
      leads to the same truth - nothing (non-existence) is everything; is this
      from personal experience or from reasoning? If from personal experience I
      would really appreciate a description of how you realized this. If it is
      from reasoning, I wonder how we would know that any stance is the final
      stance, so to speak. For instance, if we are witnessing the other dimensions
      of our mind, would it be possible to witness ourselves witnessing? (I hope
      this is not getting too complicated!).

      I am simply guessing here. It would seem to me that complexity is the mind's
      perspective. Pure experience is free from complexity and judgment and would
      be very hard to talk about. The "nothing" perspective becomes a mind
      construction. Of the millions of possible constructions, why choose
      "nothing"?

      I sense a kind of frustration here, like someone trying to explain an
      experience in another dimension but not having any words which point
      directly at the other dimension.

      ...Tony

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jason Fishman [mailto:munkiman4u@...]
      Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 8:54 AM
      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] #1 Life practice -Tony



      --- tosime <tosime@...> wrote:
      > Hi Jason,
      >
      > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
      > very next post I received
      > was...
      >
      > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
      > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
      > the "Great Nothing."
      >
      > It came one minute after yours.
      >
      > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
      >
      > ...Tony

      Well Tony, One can say spritual, one can say
      emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
      nothing.

      One can apparently be following what is called a
      spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
      the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to
      be fullfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
      force that is housed within a physical body to reach
      some enlightened phase. This souls search always comes
      up short handed, usually with a person looking hard
      enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.

      Now most of us already have come to terms with a
      physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
      a person obtains leds exactly the sasme place with,
      what a waste of time, what a big nothing.

      The emotion search is somewhat more tricky. Each
      living being has a set of programs. To feel something
      based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
      threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
      (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
      loss/change of someone or something (again for a
      survival of the group). This again leds to nothing,
      following your heart may give one emotional
      understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
      their insides (as the story goes) then that again leds
      to the big emptiness of nothing.

      There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
      tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
      To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
      (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
      rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
      that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
      heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
      witness stance, this leds to the same truth. Nothing
      (no-existance) is everything.

      This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
      swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
      (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
      really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
      look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
      being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
      want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
      eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
      it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
      runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
      the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
      everything!

      Someone once told me, one should practice to die
      everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
      and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
      practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
      for death of form when the contract expires.

      __________________________________________________
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    • medit8ionsociety
      ... Yeah, co-incidences. I just got done putting the art in place for the lead article in the next issue of The Inner Traveler. The title of the article and
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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        > --- tosime <tosime@b...> wrote:
        > > Hi Jason,
        > >
        > > This is quite a coincidence...

        Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
        > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
        > and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
        > practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
        > for death of form when the contract expires.
        >
        Yeah, co-incidences. I just got done putting the art in place for the
        lead article in the next issue of The Inner Traveler. The title of the
        article and meditation technique is "Death and How to Prepare For It".
        Way cool that Jason mentions this exact thing in this Now. Gurdjieff
        indicated more than once that the goofiest thing people did was to act
        as if they were immortal and they had all the time in the world to get
        down to serious "Work". Meditating on Death isn't alot of fun, that's
        why it makes for excellent "Intentional Suffering". And Tonyji asks
        "Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?" Well, that's a
        significant point. Our ego's and body's, and emotions as well as our
        thoughts are as nothing, have come from nothing, and will certainly be
        nothing for billions of years. With this perspective in place, and it
        actually always is, One is free of everything that happened to or is
        happening to or will ever happen to the fantasy creature we have
        constructed that we call "Me". This Me has alot of "somethings"
        attached to it, and that's where our desire and thus our karma and
        suffering comes in. Without "Me", we have Nothing, and thus nothing to
        worry us. Unfortunatly we take that Me very seriously, and aren't
        serious at all about what we should be serious about, and that is the
        "Work" of annihilating this phantom person. So, as Chief Dan George
        said many times in the excellent film Little Big Man, "Today is a good
        day to die." And that is well worth meditating about.
        Peace and blessings,
        Bob
        BTW, wait til you see the fantastic art that will be featured in the
        article I mentioned. New artist for us, and certainly world quality,
        as are all of our artists and authors. So, don't actually drop the
        physical just yet! :-)
      • Jason Fishman
        ... Actualy Tony, what may really cook your noodle is the questions of... how can one of mind take on a perspective of no existance? Wouldn t one have to not
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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          --- tosime <tosime@...> wrote:
          > Hi Jason,
          >
          > This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for giving me a
          > better understanding of
          > the "nothing" perspective.

          Actualy Tony, what may really cook your noodle is the
          questions of... how can one of mind take on a
          perspective of no existance? Wouldn't one have to not
          exists to take that stance? And if one does not
          exists, there would be no mind to experience this none
          existance and come back to body to tell of it's
          experience of no existance? Although I do understand
          what your asking for, those questions are a little bit
          deeper then the one you poise below...


          > I was very intrigued with the "4 factor", the
          > witness stance. There is one
          > aspect I would like more clarity on. When you say
          > that the witness stance
          > leads to the same truth - nothing (non-existence) is
          > everything; is this
          > from personal experience or from reasoning?

          Personal experience is also reasoning, one has to rip
          the seperation of conditions apart. You do not exist
          or you exist in states are the only 2 seperations one
          can define. Light or dark, for example.

          If from
          > personal experience I
          > would really appreciate a description of how you
          > realized this. If it is
          > from reasoning, I wonder how we would know that any
          > stance is the final
          > stance, so to speak. For instance, if we are
          > witnessing the other dimensions
          > of our mind, would it be possible to witness
          > ourselves witnessing? (I hope
          > this is not getting too complicated!).

          Not complicated, extremly simple when broken down into
          existance and non-existance. As far as witnessing
          oneself witnessing. Certainly, we can video tape
          ourselves doing something. What you are asking, I
          think, is to witness the mind at work. You and I are
          writing each other, this seems seperated by 2 people
          over a large distance, yet this is the same thing as
          mind witnessing mind, you and I are not separate, only
          of mind. You read my words and hear my perspective,
          your mind makes thoughts about what I'm trying to say
          and breaks them down to logic that you can refer to,
          no different then what I'm doing or your doing in the
          mind. Your seeing inside your own head, everytime you
          listen to or read someone elses words.

          > I am simply guessing here. It would seem to me that
          > complexity is the mind's
          > perspective. Pure experience is free from complexity
          > and judgment and would
          > be very hard to talk about. The "nothing"
          > perspective becomes a mind
          > construction. Of the millions of possible
          > constructions, why choose
          > "nothing"?

          Ahh perfect question. Anything one can construct is
          inside of this reality of existance (so to speak) yet
          after you break down the complexity of whats really
          going on, everyones truth sounds the same, every
          manifestation one can procure becomes complete clarity
          in simplicity. Everything brings one back to nothing,
          over and over and over again, infinitely circular.
          Heres a few questions you can ask yourself... Is it
          just an irony that man has devised a number system
          with a zero (a nothing) that is a simple circle? What
          not an 8 to repesent nothing? Or is that just another
          sumbliminal clue of what everything REALLY comes down
          to? Existance is an infinite circle that is a zero, a
          nothing.

          > I sense a kind of frustration here, like someone
          > trying to explain an
          > experience in another dimension but not having any
          > words which point
          > directly at the other dimension.

          Yes, in a sense that would be the case. Pointing to
          nothing can really not be expressed, a dimension of
          non-existance (see the "bake your noodle question
          above"). Since one cannot go to non-existance and come
          back to describe it. This leaves for infinite
          possiblities within exsistance, none of which will not
          link up to itself endlessly.

          > ...Tony

          Peace and Love to you

          __________________________________________________
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          Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
          http://taxes.yahoo.com/
        • Jason Fishman
          Very good Bob, I haven t dropped out of existance just this moment, but you d better hurry, you never know which moment you will realize fully that you don t
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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            Very good Bob, I haven't dropped out of existance just
            this moment, but you'd better hurry, you never know
            which moment you will realize fully that you don't
            exist!

            Look forward to the new addition, How does one get an
            inner traveler, BTW? I'm sure it was mentioned before,
            yet it has seemed to have slipped my existing memory!

            Peace and Love

            --- medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            > > --- tosime <tosime@b...> wrote:
            > > > Hi Jason,
            > > >
            > > > This is quite a coincidence...
            >
            > Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
            > > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is
            > nice
            > > and ready to live the next day! One should make
            > that a
            > > practice, it does quite well and one will be all
            > ready
            > > for death of form when the contract expires.
            > >
            > Yeah, co-incidences. I just got done putting the art
            > in place for the
            > lead article in the next issue of The Inner
            > Traveler. The title of the
            > article and meditation technique is "Death and How
            > to Prepare For It".
            > Way cool that Jason mentions this exact thing in
            > this Now. Gurdjieff
            > indicated more than once that the goofiest thing
            > people did was to act
            > as if they were immortal and they had all the time
            > in the world to get
            > down to serious "Work". Meditating on Death isn't
            > alot of fun, that's
            > why it makes for excellent "Intentional Suffering".
            > And Tonyji asks
            > "Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?"
            > Well, that's a
            > significant point. Our ego's and body's, and
            > emotions as well as our
            > thoughts are as nothing, have come from nothing, and
            > will certainly be
            > nothing for billions of years. With this perspective
            > in place, and it
            > actually always is, One is free of everything that
            > happened to or is
            > happening to or will ever happen to the fantasy
            > creature we have
            > constructed that we call "Me". This Me has alot of
            > "somethings"
            > attached to it, and that's where our desire and thus
            > our karma and
            > suffering comes in. Without "Me", we have Nothing,
            > and thus nothing to
            > worry us. Unfortunatly we take that Me very
            > seriously, and aren't
            > serious at all about what we should be serious
            > about, and that is the
            > "Work" of annihilating this phantom person. So, as
            > Chief Dan George
            > said many times in the excellent film Little Big
            > Man, "Today is a good
            > day to die." And that is well worth meditating
            > about.
            > Peace and blessings,
            > Bob
            > BTW, wait til you see the fantastic art that will be
            > featured in the
            > article I mentioned. New artist for us, and
            > certainly world quality,
            > as are all of our artists and authors. So, don't
            > actually drop the
            > physical just yet! :-)
            >
            >


            __________________________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
            http://taxes.yahoo.com/
          • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
            ... what are you saying? please name the activities what lead you to something [which is nothing of course] sounds like j* rhetoric, she brutally distorts and
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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              > Hi Jason,
              >
              > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
              > very next post I received
              > was...
              >
              > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
              > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
              > the "Great Nothing."
              >
              > It came one minute after yours.
              >
              > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
              >
              > ...Tony
              >
              > Well Tony, One can say spiritual, one can say
              > emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
              > nothing.


              what are you saying? please name the
              activities what lead you to something
              [which is nothing of course]

              sounds like j* rhetoric, she
              brutally distorts and simplifies
              everything to make her point and
              gives the impression to the ranch
              members that they have a "special" *understanding* i hope this mutation
              in thinking can be reversed
              re-examined and to broaden ones
              view is still possible

              Jason, think on your own please

              God is in the detail. I thing
              it is admirable to learn the
              fundamentalist black & white formula
              and i enjoy the merry go around
              word-games spinning from something
              into nothing and than back again a
              game the ranch elite loves to play..


              Are you talking about YOUR experience?


              >
              > One can apparently be following what is called a
              > spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
              > the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to

              WRONG! spiritual exercize is like
              the sports it is to optimise ones body-mind-spirit organism [spirit
              like enthusiasm, will-power not your
              teachers holy ghost on the way to
              her Savior, NO NEED TO mystify all]

              > be fulfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
              > force that is housed within a physical body to reach

              WRONG! again there are forces in the
              body like the force of an unavoidable
              bowel movement when one is full of
              shit and there is a force of a vacuum
              after all the air is emptied form
              the lungs, which force than will suck
              fresh air in

              and than there is the lifeforce energy
              of a living organism on the tracks
              of the nervous system and its plexuses
              which with training can be
              manipulated and used to refine the
              state of this living organism to an
              optimal point when it radiates
              intelligence etc

              > some enlightened phase.

              YES! which phase one gains
              *understanding*: of course i mean
              the RIGHT understanding aka
              enlightened consciousness

              This souls search always comes
              > up short handed, usually with a person looking hard


              WRONG! it comes up exactly as it does
              and as it IS


              > enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.
              >

              oh! the proverbial nothing which is something of course,


              i say it is a time WELL spent


              > Now most of us already have come to terms with a
              > physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
              > a person obtains leads exactly the same place with,
              > what a waste of time, what a big nothing.
              >
              > The emotion search is somewhat more tricky.

              clean and simple again: each activity is
              boiled down to to the dirty word to:
              *SEARCH* which of course leads to
              nothing [something<->nothing] my head
              is spinning iam getting dizzy


              >Each
              > living being has a set of programs. To feel something
              > based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
              > threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
              > (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
              > loss/change of someone or something (again for a
              > survival of the group). This again leads to nothing,


              by now with your disappointments that everything leads to nothing i'm moved
              to give you something.. i just don't
              know what ...


              > following your heart may give one emotional
              > understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
              > their insides (as the story goes) then that again leads
              > to the big emptiness of nothing.
              >
              > There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
              > tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
              > To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
              > (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
              > rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
              > that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
              > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
              > witness stance, this leads to the same truth. Nothing
              > (no-existance) is everything.
              >
              > This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
              > swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
              > (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
              > really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
              > look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
              > being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
              > want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
              > eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
              > it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
              > runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
              > the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
              > everything!
              >
              > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
              > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
              > and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
              > practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
              > for death of form when the contract expires.


              I like to swim and it leads to nothing
              i like to meditate searchlessly, yoga
              makes me feel good, [FEEL GOO!!!? i
              can hear the poliCe cursing UPON
              HEARING THE OTHER DIRTY WORD] altho
              i practice yoga without wanting to
              feel good this is just as the way it is

              i like to spend some of my time on
              earth with meditation i noticed it
              sharpened my intellect: it centers
              and calms me and gives me something
              else to do than to think about
              nothing = something around and around


              ---love, Karta
            • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
              there are plenty of activities to chose from, and if you say you are a bundle of activities, than the best is to talk about your own: what you know don t ever
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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                there are plenty of activities to chose
                from, and if you say you are a bundle
                of activities, than the best is to
                talk about your own: what you know

                don't ever think that your choice of
                activities are superior to others

                and do not assume why others do
                anything even if it is called 'sadna"
                just because you were exposed to a
                very limited view about what spirituality is

                ----K

                > Hi Jason,
                >
                > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
                > very next post I received
                > was...
                >
                > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
                > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                > the "Great Nothing."
                >
                > It came one minute after yours.
                >
                > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                >
                > ...Tony
                >
                > > Jason: Well Tony, One can say spiritual, one can say
                > >emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
                > >nothing.
                >
                >
                > Karta: what are you saying? please name the
                > activities what lead you to something
                > [which is nothing of course]
                >
                > sounds like j* rhetoric, she
                > brutally distorts and simplifies
                > everything to make her point and
                > gives the impression to the ranch
                > members that they have a "special" *understanding* i hope this mutation
                > in thinking can be reversed
                > re-examined and to broaden ones
                > view is still possible
                >
                > Jason, think on your own please
                >
                > God is in the detail. I thing
                > it is admirable to learn the
                > fundamentalist black & white formula
                > and i enjoy the merry go around
                > word-games spinning from something
                > into nothing and than back again a
                > game the ranch elite loves to play..
                >
                >
                > Are you talking about YOUR experience?
                >
                >
                > >
                > > One can apparently be following what is called a
                > > spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
                > > the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to
                >
                > WRONG! spiritual exercize is like
                > the sports it is to optimise ones body-mind-spirit organism [spirit
                > like enthusiasm, will-power not your
                > teachers holy ghost on the way to
                > her Savior, NO NEED TO mystify all]
                >
                > > be fulfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                > > force that is housed within a physical body to reach
                >
                > WRONG! again there are forces in the
                > body like the force of an unavoidable
                > bowel movement when one is full of
                > shit and there is a force of a vacuum
                > after all the air is emptied form
                > the lungs, which force than will suck
                > fresh air in
                >
                > and than there is the lifeforce energy
                > of a living organism on the tracks
                > of the nervous system and its plexuses
                > which with training can be
                > manipulated and used to refine the
                > state of this living organism to an
                > optimal point when it radiates
                > intelligence etc
                >
                > > some enlightened phase.
                >
                > YES! which phase one gains
                > *understanding*: of course i mean
                > the RIGHT understanding aka
                > enlightened consciousness
                >
                > This souls search always comes
                > > up short handed, usually with a person looking hard
                >
                >
                > WRONG! it comes up exactly as it does
                > and as it IS
                >
                >
                > > enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.
                > >
                >
                > oh! the proverbial nothing which is something of course,
                >
                >
                > i say it is a time WELL spent
                >
                >
                > > Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                > > physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
                > > a person obtains leads exactly the same place with,
                > > what a waste of time, what a big nothing.
                > >
                > > The emotion search is somewhat more tricky.
                >
                > clean and simple again: each activity is
                > boiled down to to the dirty word to:
                > *SEARCH* which of course leads to
                > nothing [something<->nothing] my head
                > is spinning iam getting dizzy
                >
                >
                > >Each
                > > living being has a set of programs. To feel something
                > > based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                > > threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
                > > (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                > > loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                > > survival of the group). This again leads to nothing,
                >
                >
                > by now with your disappointments that everything leads to nothing i'm moved
                > to give you something.. i just don't
                > know what ...
                >
                >
                > > following your heart may give one emotional
                > > understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                > > their insides (as the story goes) then that again leads
                > > to the big emptiness of nothing.
                > >
                > > There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                > > tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
                > > To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                > > (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                > > rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
                > > that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                > > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                > > witness stance, this leads to the same truth. Nothing
                > > (no-existance) is everything.
                > >
                > > This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                > > swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
                > > (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
                > > really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
                > > look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
                > > being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
                > > want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                > > eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
                > > it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
                > > runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
                > > the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
                > > everything!
                > >
                > > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                > > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
                > > and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
                > > practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
                > > for death of form when the contract expires.
                >
                >
                > I like to swim and it leads to nothing
                > i like to meditate searchlessly, yoga
                > makes me feel good, [FEEL GOO!!!? i
                > can hear the poliCe cursing UPON
                > HEARING THE OTHER DIRTY WORD] altho
                > i practice yoga without wanting to
                > feel good this is just as the way it is
                >
                > i like to spend some of my time on
                > earth with meditation i noticed it
                > sharpened my intellect: it centers
                > and calms me and gives me something
                > else to do than to think about
                > nothing = something around and around
                >
                >
                > ---love, Karta
              • medit8ionsociety
                Jason Fishman wrote: snip ... Dear Jason, The Inner Traveler is available by subscription, free with a membership in the Meditation Society
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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                  Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:

                  snip
                  > Look forward to the new addition, How does one get an
                  > inner traveler, BTW? I'm sure it was mentioned before,
                  > yet it has seemed to have slipped my existing memory!
                  >
                  > Peace and Love
                  >
                  Dear Jason,
                  The Inner Traveler is available by subscription, free with a
                  membership in the Meditation Society of America, or by writing
                  something or sharing artwork for it. Also, I sometimes post the URL
                  for issues here on this group. We also now have available a CD of the
                  first 10 issues. Info can be found on our web site, Meditation Station
                  http://www.meditationsociety.com
                  Here's the URL of our sample issue:
                  http://www.meditationsociety.com/it71808/index.html
                  You will need the Adobe Reader tm 5.0 to read it. If you
                  don't have it, the Adobe Reader can be downloaded at:
                  http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html
                  Thanks for asking and I hope you enjoy and benefit from it if you do
                  check it out.
                  Peace and blessings,
                  Bob
                • Jason Fishman
                  ... Any activity, this is what everything includes. For example you and I are having this conversation, you disagree with what is said, where does that get you
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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                    > what are you saying? please name the
                    > activities what lead you to something
                    > [which is nothing of course]

                    Any activity, this is what everything includes. For
                    example you and I are having this conversation, you
                    disagree with what is said, where does that get you in
                    your mind? Another example, you have all this great
                    knowledge then one day your mind goes blank (such as
                    amnesia or altzimers disease does over time) what do
                    YOU have left? Does that mean all those things you
                    experienced and knowledge you gained never happened?
                    How would you know? You can't do them over. Think
                    about that, if you will.

                    > sounds like j* rhetoric, she
                    > brutally distorts and simplifies
                    > everything to make her point and
                    > gives the impression to the ranch
                    > members that they have a "special" *understanding* i
                    > hope this mutation
                    > in thinking can be reversed
                    > re-examined and to broaden ones
                    > view is still possible
                    >
                    > Jason, think on your own please

                    Karta, this is on my own, yet it's nothing special,
                    derived from thinking on my own and through the
                    teaching of everything. This is everything, how much
                    broader view can one have?

                    > God is in the detail. I thing
                    > it is admirable to learn the
                    > fundamentalist black & white formula
                    > and i enjoy the merry go around
                    > word-games spinning from something
                    > into nothing and than back again a
                    > game the ranch elite loves to play..

                    Of course god is in the detail. God IS everything,
                    everywhere every moment, you are not seperate from
                    god. There is no fundamentalism, yet everything is
                    fun-da-mental, light and dark, black and white. I'm
                    sorry you have had a bad experience with the ranch,
                    but they are not elite, nor have I been on the ranch
                    list. ALL are you, not seperate from you. Word spining
                    is conversations, tossing concepts to and fro which
                    amounts to nothing more then the moment which is based
                    on everything and nothing equally feeding on each
                    other.

                    > Are you talking about YOUR experience?

                    All experiences are exsistant. As said before one
                    cannot go to no-exsistance and come back to tell of
                    ones experience there.

                    > >
                    > > One can apparently be following what is called a
                    > > spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul
                    > is
                    > > the key to unlocking some mystery. They can
                    > attempt to
                    >
                    > WRONG! spiritual exercize is like
                    > the sports it is to optimise ones body-mind-spirit
                    > organism [spirit
                    > like enthusiasm, will-power not your
                    > teachers holy ghost on the way to
                    > her Savior, NO NEED TO mystify all]

                    Certainly, you said the same thing I said, how can
                    either of us be correct?

                    > > be fulfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                    > > force that is housed within a physical body to
                    > reach
                    >
                    > WRONG! again there are forces in the
                    > body like the force of an unavoidable
                    > bowel movement when one is full of
                    > shit and there is a force of a vacuum
                    > after all the air is emptied form
                    > the lungs, which force than will suck
                    > fresh air in
                    >
                    > and than there is the lifeforce energy
                    > of a living organism on the tracks
                    > of the nervous system and its plexuses
                    > which with training can be
                    > manipulated and used to refine the
                    > state of this living organism to an
                    > optimal point when it radiates
                    > intelligence etc


                    Of course, These are all parts of you which is
                    everything. This does not desribe HOW phenomena happen
                    in exsistance. This is something to KNOW. If all of
                    the earth was wiped out where only the soil and water
                    remained, did your knowledge go anywhere? Do you feel
                    you take something with you when death comes? How can
                    you? Everything you have is stored in memory, is in
                    mind, do you take mind with you? Once your gone, you
                    will take nothing more then what you came in with,
                    which is nothing more then everything.

                    > > some enlightened phase.
                    >
                    > YES! which phase one gains
                    > *understanding*: of course i mean
                    > the RIGHT understanding aka
                    > enlightened consciousness


                    Yes, phase one, phase two, phase ten million, all the
                    same thing, amounts to everything, which is already
                    what you have.

                    > This souls search always comes
                    > > up short handed, usually with a person looking
                    > hard
                    >
                    >
                    > WRONG! it comes up exactly as it does
                    > and as it IS

                    When you complete these phases, what do you expect to
                    gain? Will you be special then? Seperate from all
                    others and everything?

                    > > enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.
                    > >
                    >
                    > oh! the proverbial nothing which is something of
                    > course,
                    >
                    >
                    > i say it is a time WELL spent

                    Of course, what else will one do with the moments that
                    pass? It's all experiences that leads to knowledge,
                    that eventually give one wisdom, if those moments
                    arise that one is willing to ponder experience,
                    nothing more then what you already have.

                    >
                    > > Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                    > > physical search. The more money one amasses, or
                    > things
                    > > a person obtains leads exactly the same place
                    > with,
                    > > what a waste of time, what a big nothing.
                    > >
                    > > The emotion search is somewhat more tricky.
                    >
                    > clean and simple again: each activity is
                    > boiled down to to the dirty word to:
                    > *SEARCH* which of course leads to
                    > nothing [something<->nothing] my head
                    > is spinning iam getting dizzy

                    HEHE, getting dizzy is fun! One can decide they are no
                    longer searching, but there is always knowledge to
                    gain, experiences to experience, all of which are the
                    same activity of existance.


                    > >Each
                    > > living being has a set of programs. To feel
                    > something
                    > > based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                    > > threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared
                    > for
                    > > (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                    > > loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                    > > survival of the group). This again leads to
                    > nothing,
                    >
                    >
                    > by now with your disappointments that everything
                    > leads to nothing i'm moved
                    > to give you something.. i just don't
                    > know what ...

                    I have no disappointments, only freedom and clarity.
                    You can give me anything you'd like, yet I can only
                    retain the knowledge of your understanding for a
                    moment. Anything I do is what it is, then it's gone
                    before it's over, no different then you, it only
                    exists in memory.

                    > > following your heart may give one emotional
                    > > understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                    > > their insides (as the story goes) then that again
                    > leads
                    > > to the big emptiness of nothing.
                    > >
                    > > There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                    > > tool of the mind which encompasses all of the
                    > factors.
                    > > To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                    > > (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                    > > rationalize, experience and conceptualize
                    > knowledge
                    > > that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                    > > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                    > > witness stance, this leads to the same truth.
                    > Nothing
                    > > (no-existance) is everything.
                    > >
                    > > This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                    > > swallow. To think that everything you have ever
                    > done
                    > > (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you
                    > don't
                    > > really exist (only in the now), well most cannot
                    > even
                    > > look at that pill let alone consume it into their
                    > very
                    > > being. There must be more! People tell themselves,
                    > we
                    > > want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                    > > eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal,
                    > yet
                    > > it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the
                    > contract
                    > > runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you
                    > face
                    > > the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which
                    > is
                    > > everything!
                    > >
                    > > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                    > > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is
                    > nice
                    > > and ready to live the next day! One should make
                    > that a
                    > > practice, it does quite well and one will be all
                    > ready
                    > > for death of form when the contract expires.
                    >
                    >
                    > I like to swim and it leads to nothing
                    > i like to meditate searchlessly, yoga
                    > makes me feel good, [FEEL GOO!!!? i
                    > can hear the poliCe cursing UPON
                    > HEARING THE OTHER DIRTY WORD] altho

                    Yup, all experiences exist in the mind, all will be
                    gone in the blink of an eye. Whats left? Nothing :)

                    Peace and love to you Karta

                    __________________________________________________
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                  • Jason Fishman
                    ... Certainly Bob and thank you. I work in graphic arts. If you require something for your future publications, drop me a note and I ll see what can be done!
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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                      --- medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      > Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > snip
                      > > Look forward to the new addition, How does one get
                      > an
                      > > inner traveler, BTW? I'm sure it was mentioned
                      > before,
                      > > yet it has seemed to have slipped my existing
                      > memory!
                      > >
                      > > Peace and Love
                      > >
                      > Dear Jason,
                      > The Inner Traveler is available by subscription,
                      > free with a
                      > membership in the Meditation Society of America, or
                      > by writing
                      > something or sharing artwork for it. Also, I
                      > sometimes post the URL
                      > for issues here on this group. We also now have
                      > available a CD of the
                      > first 10 issues. Info can be found on our web site,
                      > Meditation Station
                      > http://www.meditationsociety.com
                      > Here's the URL of our sample issue:
                      > http://www.meditationsociety.com/it71808/index.html
                      > You will need the Adobe Reader tm 5.0 to read it. If
                      > you
                      > don't have it, the Adobe Reader can be downloaded
                      > at:
                      > http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html
                      > Thanks for asking and I hope you enjoy and benefit
                      > from it if you do
                      > check it out.
                      > Peace and blessings,
                      > Bob

                      Certainly Bob and thank you. I work in graphic arts.
                      If you require something for your future publications,
                      drop me a note and I'll see what can be done!

                      Peace and Love

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                      http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                    • Jason Fishman
                      ... This is what one knows, how could one tell you what you know? In your idea of assumptions... what assumptions are being made? No activities are any more or
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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                        --- "satkartar7 <mi_nok@...>" <mi_nok@...>
                        wrote:
                        > there are plenty of activities to chose
                        > from, and if you say you are a bundle
                        > of activities, than the best is to
                        > talk about your own: what you know
                        >
                        > don't ever think that your choice of
                        > activities are superior to others
                        >
                        > and do not assume why others do
                        > anything even if it is called 'sadna"
                        > just because you were exposed to a
                        > very limited view about what spirituality is
                        >
                        > ----K

                        This is what one knows, how could one tell you what
                        you know? In your idea of assumptions... what
                        assumptions are being made? No activities are any more
                        or less of anything any other does, how could it be,
                        it all is the same thing underneath?
                        No limits to everything, yet only nothing remains.

                        Peace and Love


                        __________________________________________________
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                        http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                      • Gene Poole <gene_poole@qwest.net>
                        ... If you look at zero you see nothing, but if you look through it you see the world
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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                          "tosime" <tosime@b...> wrote:
                          > Hi Jason,
                          >
                          > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the very next post I received
                          > was...
                          >
                          > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                          > the "Great Nothing."
                          >
                          > It came one minute after yours.
                          >
                          > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                          >
                          > ...Tony


                          If you look at zero you see nothing, but if you look through it you
                          see the world


                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Jason <munkiman4u@y...> [mailto:munkiman4u@y...]
                          > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 1:38 AM
                          > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Top 10 spiritual practices
                          > -Tony
                          >
                          >
                          > No need to thank me :) there is nothing, but everything.
                          >
                          >
                          > Peace and Love
                          >
                          > > Hi Jason,
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for EVERYTHING...
                          > >
                          > > ...Tony
                          > >
                          > > Yes, a summary...
                          > > Everything you have listed equals nothing to do more
                          > > or less of.
                          > >
                          > > You can do meditation, yet you already are doing
                          > > meditation. You can write and read yahoo groups, yet
                          > > you already are writing and reading yahoo groups. You
                          > > can be introspective, yet you already are
                          > > introspecting. You can live in the now, yet you
                          > > already are living in the now. You can observe nature,
                          > > yet everything already is natural. You can teach,
                          > > study, learn, Yet you already teach, study, and learn.
                          > > Ahh my favorite, observing children, you already are
                          > > observing children. My least favorite, attending
                          > > church, again, you already attend church.
                          > >
                          > > This all comes down to a big nothing, a zero. No
                          > > matter what you do, in your mind, this doing is
                          > > something you are already doing. There is no doing,
                          > > yet all is doing. Any words one can express, any doing
                          > > one does can be flipped to an opposite, I'm not doing
                          > > this or I'm not saying that. Two opposings cancel
                          > > there for a zero, nothing. Its a circle of opposing
                          > > factors which is the summary of all things, a zero, a
                          > > huge never ending, never begining circle. You don't
                          > > exist, yet you exists in the mind :)
                          > >
                          > > Peace and Love
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________________________
                          > > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                          > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                          Jason Fishman wrote: Another example, you have all this great ... WHY? why would i think about such things ... One can dare to be real ...
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 2, 2003
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                            Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                            Another example, you have all this great
                            > knowledge then one day your mind goes blank (such as
                            > amnesia or altzimers disease does over time) what do
                            > YOU have left? Does that mean all those things you
                            > experienced and knowledge you gained never happened?
                            > How would you know? You can't do them over. Think
                            > about that, if you will.
                            >


                            WHY? why would i think about such things


                            > This is everything, how much
                            > broader view can one have?


                            One can dare to be real


                            >
                            > Of course, These are all parts of you which is
                            > everything. This does not desribe HOW phenomena happen
                            > in exsistance. This is something to KNOW. If all of
                            > the earth was wiped out where only the soil and water
                            > remained, did your knowledge go anywhere? Do you feel
                            > you take something with you when death comes? How can
                            > you? Everything you have is stored in memory, is in
                            > mind, do you take mind with you? Once your gone, you
                            > will take nothing more then what you came in with,
                            > which is nothing more then everything.
                            >

                            >
                            > Yes, phase one, phase two, phase ten million, all the
                            > same thing, amounts to everything, which is already
                            > what you have.
                            >

                            You Jason are a philosopher <smiles>


                            > One can decide they are no
                            > longer searching, but there is always knowledge to
                            > gain, experiences to experience, all of which are the
                            > same activity of existance.


                            oh! this obsession with the *search*


                            > This is the
                            > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                            > witness stance, this leads to the same truth.
                            > Nothing
                            > (no-existance) is everything.
                            >
                            > Yup, all experiences exist in the mind, all will be
                            > gone in the blink of an eye. Whats left? Nothing :)


                            ok Jason, i will keep in mind your
                            advice, that to 'search' is the
                            wrong activity and the notion of
                            the 'nothing' the later Gene's way
                            looking at the zero...

                            i am not a philosopher, ALL I
                            WANTED TO SAY is that: At times
                            when i dare to exist between nowhere
                            and somewhere between no ID and
                            a transient one to use what makes
                            me tick is getting into the *zone*
                            what is easy with sadna yoga and
                            meditation as i belive, that through
                            yoga practice consciousness can be
                            raised. And with higher
                            consciousness there IS [must be and
                            there is NOOOOO way around this]
                            a refinement of character an upgrade
                            in the ethics of action and yes!
                            an upgrade in *understanding* these
                            are biproducts of sadna

                            Jason, i am glad; that what makes
                            you tick is not trolling the
                            *spiritual* as in: SPIRITUAL lists
                            with knocking meditation and yoga,
                            or what ever is listed as the aim
                            of the club is: and trying to
                            recruit normal people to some funny
                            farm boot-camp to be insulted

                            because i am fead up with that


                            ----love,
                            Karta
                            >
                            > Peace and love to you Karta
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