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Re: [Meditation Society of America] #1 Life practice -Tony

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  • Jason Fishman
    ... Well Tony, One can say spritual, one can say emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to nothing. One can apparently be following what is called
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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      --- tosime <tosime@...> wrote:
      > Hi Jason,
      >
      > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
      > very next post I received
      > was...
      >
      > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
      > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
      > the "Great Nothing."
      >
      > It came one minute after yours.
      >
      > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
      >
      > ...Tony

      Well Tony, One can say spritual, one can say
      emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
      nothing.

      One can apparently be following what is called a
      spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
      the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to
      be fullfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
      force that is housed within a physical body to reach
      some enlightened phase. This souls search always comes
      up short handed, usually with a person looking hard
      enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.

      Now most of us already have come to terms with a
      physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
      a person obtains leds exactly the sasme place with,
      what a waste of time, what a big nothing.

      The emotion search is somewhat more tricky. Each
      living being has a set of programs. To feel something
      based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
      threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
      (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
      loss/change of someone or something (again for a
      survival of the group). This again leds to nothing,
      following your heart may give one emotional
      understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
      their insides (as the story goes) then that again leds
      to the big emptiness of nothing.

      There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
      tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
      To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
      (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
      rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
      that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
      heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
      witness stance, this leds to the same truth. Nothing
      (no-existance) is everything.

      This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
      swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
      (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
      really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
      look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
      being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
      want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
      eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
      it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
      runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
      the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
      everything!

      Someone once told me, one should practice to die
      everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
      and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
      practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
      for death of form when the contract expires.

      __________________________________________________
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      Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
      http://taxes.yahoo.com/
    • tosime
      Hi Jason, This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for giving me a better understanding of the nothing perspective. I was very intrigued with the 4 factor , the
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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        Hi Jason,

        This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for giving me a better understanding of
        the "nothing" perspective.

        I was very intrigued with the "4 factor", the witness stance. There is one
        aspect I would like more clarity on. When you say that the witness stance
        leads to the same truth - nothing (non-existence) is everything; is this
        from personal experience or from reasoning? If from personal experience I
        would really appreciate a description of how you realized this. If it is
        from reasoning, I wonder how we would know that any stance is the final
        stance, so to speak. For instance, if we are witnessing the other dimensions
        of our mind, would it be possible to witness ourselves witnessing? (I hope
        this is not getting too complicated!).

        I am simply guessing here. It would seem to me that complexity is the mind's
        perspective. Pure experience is free from complexity and judgment and would
        be very hard to talk about. The "nothing" perspective becomes a mind
        construction. Of the millions of possible constructions, why choose
        "nothing"?

        I sense a kind of frustration here, like someone trying to explain an
        experience in another dimension but not having any words which point
        directly at the other dimension.

        ...Tony

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jason Fishman [mailto:munkiman4u@...]
        Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 8:54 AM
        To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] #1 Life practice -Tony



        --- tosime <tosime@...> wrote:
        > Hi Jason,
        >
        > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
        > very next post I received
        > was...
        >
        > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
        > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
        > the "Great Nothing."
        >
        > It came one minute after yours.
        >
        > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
        >
        > ...Tony

        Well Tony, One can say spritual, one can say
        emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
        nothing.

        One can apparently be following what is called a
        spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
        the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to
        be fullfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
        force that is housed within a physical body to reach
        some enlightened phase. This souls search always comes
        up short handed, usually with a person looking hard
        enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.

        Now most of us already have come to terms with a
        physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
        a person obtains leds exactly the sasme place with,
        what a waste of time, what a big nothing.

        The emotion search is somewhat more tricky. Each
        living being has a set of programs. To feel something
        based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
        threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
        (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
        loss/change of someone or something (again for a
        survival of the group). This again leds to nothing,
        following your heart may give one emotional
        understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
        their insides (as the story goes) then that again leds
        to the big emptiness of nothing.

        There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
        tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
        To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
        (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
        rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
        that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
        heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
        witness stance, this leds to the same truth. Nothing
        (no-existance) is everything.

        This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
        swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
        (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
        really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
        look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
        being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
        want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
        eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
        it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
        runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
        the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
        everything!

        Someone once told me, one should practice to die
        everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
        and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
        practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
        for death of form when the contract expires.

        __________________________________________________
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        Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
        http://taxes.yahoo.com/


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      • medit8ionsociety
        ... Yeah, co-incidences. I just got done putting the art in place for the lead article in the next issue of The Inner Traveler. The title of the article and
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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          > --- tosime <tosime@b...> wrote:
          > > Hi Jason,
          > >
          > > This is quite a coincidence...

          Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
          > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
          > and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
          > practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
          > for death of form when the contract expires.
          >
          Yeah, co-incidences. I just got done putting the art in place for the
          lead article in the next issue of The Inner Traveler. The title of the
          article and meditation technique is "Death and How to Prepare For It".
          Way cool that Jason mentions this exact thing in this Now. Gurdjieff
          indicated more than once that the goofiest thing people did was to act
          as if they were immortal and they had all the time in the world to get
          down to serious "Work". Meditating on Death isn't alot of fun, that's
          why it makes for excellent "Intentional Suffering". And Tonyji asks
          "Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?" Well, that's a
          significant point. Our ego's and body's, and emotions as well as our
          thoughts are as nothing, have come from nothing, and will certainly be
          nothing for billions of years. With this perspective in place, and it
          actually always is, One is free of everything that happened to or is
          happening to or will ever happen to the fantasy creature we have
          constructed that we call "Me". This Me has alot of "somethings"
          attached to it, and that's where our desire and thus our karma and
          suffering comes in. Without "Me", we have Nothing, and thus nothing to
          worry us. Unfortunatly we take that Me very seriously, and aren't
          serious at all about what we should be serious about, and that is the
          "Work" of annihilating this phantom person. So, as Chief Dan George
          said many times in the excellent film Little Big Man, "Today is a good
          day to die." And that is well worth meditating about.
          Peace and blessings,
          Bob
          BTW, wait til you see the fantastic art that will be featured in the
          article I mentioned. New artist for us, and certainly world quality,
          as are all of our artists and authors. So, don't actually drop the
          physical just yet! :-)
        • Jason Fishman
          ... Actualy Tony, what may really cook your noodle is the questions of... how can one of mind take on a perspective of no existance? Wouldn t one have to not
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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            --- tosime <tosime@...> wrote:
            > Hi Jason,
            >
            > This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for giving me a
            > better understanding of
            > the "nothing" perspective.

            Actualy Tony, what may really cook your noodle is the
            questions of... how can one of mind take on a
            perspective of no existance? Wouldn't one have to not
            exists to take that stance? And if one does not
            exists, there would be no mind to experience this none
            existance and come back to body to tell of it's
            experience of no existance? Although I do understand
            what your asking for, those questions are a little bit
            deeper then the one you poise below...


            > I was very intrigued with the "4 factor", the
            > witness stance. There is one
            > aspect I would like more clarity on. When you say
            > that the witness stance
            > leads to the same truth - nothing (non-existence) is
            > everything; is this
            > from personal experience or from reasoning?

            Personal experience is also reasoning, one has to rip
            the seperation of conditions apart. You do not exist
            or you exist in states are the only 2 seperations one
            can define. Light or dark, for example.

            If from
            > personal experience I
            > would really appreciate a description of how you
            > realized this. If it is
            > from reasoning, I wonder how we would know that any
            > stance is the final
            > stance, so to speak. For instance, if we are
            > witnessing the other dimensions
            > of our mind, would it be possible to witness
            > ourselves witnessing? (I hope
            > this is not getting too complicated!).

            Not complicated, extremly simple when broken down into
            existance and non-existance. As far as witnessing
            oneself witnessing. Certainly, we can video tape
            ourselves doing something. What you are asking, I
            think, is to witness the mind at work. You and I are
            writing each other, this seems seperated by 2 people
            over a large distance, yet this is the same thing as
            mind witnessing mind, you and I are not separate, only
            of mind. You read my words and hear my perspective,
            your mind makes thoughts about what I'm trying to say
            and breaks them down to logic that you can refer to,
            no different then what I'm doing or your doing in the
            mind. Your seeing inside your own head, everytime you
            listen to or read someone elses words.

            > I am simply guessing here. It would seem to me that
            > complexity is the mind's
            > perspective. Pure experience is free from complexity
            > and judgment and would
            > be very hard to talk about. The "nothing"
            > perspective becomes a mind
            > construction. Of the millions of possible
            > constructions, why choose
            > "nothing"?

            Ahh perfect question. Anything one can construct is
            inside of this reality of existance (so to speak) yet
            after you break down the complexity of whats really
            going on, everyones truth sounds the same, every
            manifestation one can procure becomes complete clarity
            in simplicity. Everything brings one back to nothing,
            over and over and over again, infinitely circular.
            Heres a few questions you can ask yourself... Is it
            just an irony that man has devised a number system
            with a zero (a nothing) that is a simple circle? What
            not an 8 to repesent nothing? Or is that just another
            sumbliminal clue of what everything REALLY comes down
            to? Existance is an infinite circle that is a zero, a
            nothing.

            > I sense a kind of frustration here, like someone
            > trying to explain an
            > experience in another dimension but not having any
            > words which point
            > directly at the other dimension.

            Yes, in a sense that would be the case. Pointing to
            nothing can really not be expressed, a dimension of
            non-existance (see the "bake your noodle question
            above"). Since one cannot go to non-existance and come
            back to describe it. This leaves for infinite
            possiblities within exsistance, none of which will not
            link up to itself endlessly.

            > ...Tony

            Peace and Love to you

            __________________________________________________
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            Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
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          • Jason Fishman
            Very good Bob, I haven t dropped out of existance just this moment, but you d better hurry, you never know which moment you will realize fully that you don t
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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              Very good Bob, I haven't dropped out of existance just
              this moment, but you'd better hurry, you never know
              which moment you will realize fully that you don't
              exist!

              Look forward to the new addition, How does one get an
              inner traveler, BTW? I'm sure it was mentioned before,
              yet it has seemed to have slipped my existing memory!

              Peace and Love

              --- medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              > > --- tosime <tosime@b...> wrote:
              > > > Hi Jason,
              > > >
              > > > This is quite a coincidence...
              >
              > Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
              > > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is
              > nice
              > > and ready to live the next day! One should make
              > that a
              > > practice, it does quite well and one will be all
              > ready
              > > for death of form when the contract expires.
              > >
              > Yeah, co-incidences. I just got done putting the art
              > in place for the
              > lead article in the next issue of The Inner
              > Traveler. The title of the
              > article and meditation technique is "Death and How
              > to Prepare For It".
              > Way cool that Jason mentions this exact thing in
              > this Now. Gurdjieff
              > indicated more than once that the goofiest thing
              > people did was to act
              > as if they were immortal and they had all the time
              > in the world to get
              > down to serious "Work". Meditating on Death isn't
              > alot of fun, that's
              > why it makes for excellent "Intentional Suffering".
              > And Tonyji asks
              > "Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?"
              > Well, that's a
              > significant point. Our ego's and body's, and
              > emotions as well as our
              > thoughts are as nothing, have come from nothing, and
              > will certainly be
              > nothing for billions of years. With this perspective
              > in place, and it
              > actually always is, One is free of everything that
              > happened to or is
              > happening to or will ever happen to the fantasy
              > creature we have
              > constructed that we call "Me". This Me has alot of
              > "somethings"
              > attached to it, and that's where our desire and thus
              > our karma and
              > suffering comes in. Without "Me", we have Nothing,
              > and thus nothing to
              > worry us. Unfortunatly we take that Me very
              > seriously, and aren't
              > serious at all about what we should be serious
              > about, and that is the
              > "Work" of annihilating this phantom person. So, as
              > Chief Dan George
              > said many times in the excellent film Little Big
              > Man, "Today is a good
              > day to die." And that is well worth meditating
              > about.
              > Peace and blessings,
              > Bob
              > BTW, wait til you see the fantastic art that will be
              > featured in the
              > article I mentioned. New artist for us, and
              > certainly world quality,
              > as are all of our artists and authors. So, don't
              > actually drop the
              > physical just yet! :-)
              >
              >


              __________________________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
              http://taxes.yahoo.com/
            • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
              ... what are you saying? please name the activities what lead you to something [which is nothing of course] sounds like j* rhetoric, she brutally distorts and
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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                > Hi Jason,
                >
                > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
                > very next post I received
                > was...
                >
                > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
                > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                > the "Great Nothing."
                >
                > It came one minute after yours.
                >
                > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                >
                > ...Tony
                >
                > Well Tony, One can say spiritual, one can say
                > emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
                > nothing.


                what are you saying? please name the
                activities what lead you to something
                [which is nothing of course]

                sounds like j* rhetoric, she
                brutally distorts and simplifies
                everything to make her point and
                gives the impression to the ranch
                members that they have a "special" *understanding* i hope this mutation
                in thinking can be reversed
                re-examined and to broaden ones
                view is still possible

                Jason, think on your own please

                God is in the detail. I thing
                it is admirable to learn the
                fundamentalist black & white formula
                and i enjoy the merry go around
                word-games spinning from something
                into nothing and than back again a
                game the ranch elite loves to play..


                Are you talking about YOUR experience?


                >
                > One can apparently be following what is called a
                > spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
                > the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to

                WRONG! spiritual exercize is like
                the sports it is to optimise ones body-mind-spirit organism [spirit
                like enthusiasm, will-power not your
                teachers holy ghost on the way to
                her Savior, NO NEED TO mystify all]

                > be fulfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                > force that is housed within a physical body to reach

                WRONG! again there are forces in the
                body like the force of an unavoidable
                bowel movement when one is full of
                shit and there is a force of a vacuum
                after all the air is emptied form
                the lungs, which force than will suck
                fresh air in

                and than there is the lifeforce energy
                of a living organism on the tracks
                of the nervous system and its plexuses
                which with training can be
                manipulated and used to refine the
                state of this living organism to an
                optimal point when it radiates
                intelligence etc

                > some enlightened phase.

                YES! which phase one gains
                *understanding*: of course i mean
                the RIGHT understanding aka
                enlightened consciousness

                This souls search always comes
                > up short handed, usually with a person looking hard


                WRONG! it comes up exactly as it does
                and as it IS


                > enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.
                >

                oh! the proverbial nothing which is something of course,


                i say it is a time WELL spent


                > Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                > physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
                > a person obtains leads exactly the same place with,
                > what a waste of time, what a big nothing.
                >
                > The emotion search is somewhat more tricky.

                clean and simple again: each activity is
                boiled down to to the dirty word to:
                *SEARCH* which of course leads to
                nothing [something<->nothing] my head
                is spinning iam getting dizzy


                >Each
                > living being has a set of programs. To feel something
                > based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                > threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
                > (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                > loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                > survival of the group). This again leads to nothing,


                by now with your disappointments that everything leads to nothing i'm moved
                to give you something.. i just don't
                know what ...


                > following your heart may give one emotional
                > understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                > their insides (as the story goes) then that again leads
                > to the big emptiness of nothing.
                >
                > There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                > tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
                > To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                > (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                > rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
                > that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                > witness stance, this leads to the same truth. Nothing
                > (no-existance) is everything.
                >
                > This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                > swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
                > (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
                > really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
                > look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
                > being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
                > want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                > eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
                > it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
                > runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
                > the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
                > everything!
                >
                > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
                > and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
                > practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
                > for death of form when the contract expires.


                I like to swim and it leads to nothing
                i like to meditate searchlessly, yoga
                makes me feel good, [FEEL GOO!!!? i
                can hear the poliCe cursing UPON
                HEARING THE OTHER DIRTY WORD] altho
                i practice yoga without wanting to
                feel good this is just as the way it is

                i like to spend some of my time on
                earth with meditation i noticed it
                sharpened my intellect: it centers
                and calms me and gives me something
                else to do than to think about
                nothing = something around and around


                ---love, Karta
              • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                there are plenty of activities to chose from, and if you say you are a bundle of activities, than the best is to talk about your own: what you know don t ever
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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                  there are plenty of activities to chose
                  from, and if you say you are a bundle
                  of activities, than the best is to
                  talk about your own: what you know

                  don't ever think that your choice of
                  activities are superior to others

                  and do not assume why others do
                  anything even if it is called 'sadna"
                  just because you were exposed to a
                  very limited view about what spirituality is

                  ----K

                  > Hi Jason,
                  >
                  > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
                  > very next post I received
                  > was...
                  >
                  > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
                  > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                  > the "Great Nothing."
                  >
                  > It came one minute after yours.
                  >
                  > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                  >
                  > ...Tony
                  >
                  > > Jason: Well Tony, One can say spiritual, one can say
                  > >emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
                  > >nothing.
                  >
                  >
                  > Karta: what are you saying? please name the
                  > activities what lead you to something
                  > [which is nothing of course]
                  >
                  > sounds like j* rhetoric, she
                  > brutally distorts and simplifies
                  > everything to make her point and
                  > gives the impression to the ranch
                  > members that they have a "special" *understanding* i hope this mutation
                  > in thinking can be reversed
                  > re-examined and to broaden ones
                  > view is still possible
                  >
                  > Jason, think on your own please
                  >
                  > God is in the detail. I thing
                  > it is admirable to learn the
                  > fundamentalist black & white formula
                  > and i enjoy the merry go around
                  > word-games spinning from something
                  > into nothing and than back again a
                  > game the ranch elite loves to play..
                  >
                  >
                  > Are you talking about YOUR experience?
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > One can apparently be following what is called a
                  > > spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
                  > > the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to
                  >
                  > WRONG! spiritual exercize is like
                  > the sports it is to optimise ones body-mind-spirit organism [spirit
                  > like enthusiasm, will-power not your
                  > teachers holy ghost on the way to
                  > her Savior, NO NEED TO mystify all]
                  >
                  > > be fulfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                  > > force that is housed within a physical body to reach
                  >
                  > WRONG! again there are forces in the
                  > body like the force of an unavoidable
                  > bowel movement when one is full of
                  > shit and there is a force of a vacuum
                  > after all the air is emptied form
                  > the lungs, which force than will suck
                  > fresh air in
                  >
                  > and than there is the lifeforce energy
                  > of a living organism on the tracks
                  > of the nervous system and its plexuses
                  > which with training can be
                  > manipulated and used to refine the
                  > state of this living organism to an
                  > optimal point when it radiates
                  > intelligence etc
                  >
                  > > some enlightened phase.
                  >
                  > YES! which phase one gains
                  > *understanding*: of course i mean
                  > the RIGHT understanding aka
                  > enlightened consciousness
                  >
                  > This souls search always comes
                  > > up short handed, usually with a person looking hard
                  >
                  >
                  > WRONG! it comes up exactly as it does
                  > and as it IS
                  >
                  >
                  > > enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.
                  > >
                  >
                  > oh! the proverbial nothing which is something of course,
                  >
                  >
                  > i say it is a time WELL spent
                  >
                  >
                  > > Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                  > > physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
                  > > a person obtains leads exactly the same place with,
                  > > what a waste of time, what a big nothing.
                  > >
                  > > The emotion search is somewhat more tricky.
                  >
                  > clean and simple again: each activity is
                  > boiled down to to the dirty word to:
                  > *SEARCH* which of course leads to
                  > nothing [something<->nothing] my head
                  > is spinning iam getting dizzy
                  >
                  >
                  > >Each
                  > > living being has a set of programs. To feel something
                  > > based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                  > > threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
                  > > (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                  > > loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                  > > survival of the group). This again leads to nothing,
                  >
                  >
                  > by now with your disappointments that everything leads to nothing i'm moved
                  > to give you something.. i just don't
                  > know what ...
                  >
                  >
                  > > following your heart may give one emotional
                  > > understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                  > > their insides (as the story goes) then that again leads
                  > > to the big emptiness of nothing.
                  > >
                  > > There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                  > > tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
                  > > To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                  > > (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                  > > rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
                  > > that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                  > > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                  > > witness stance, this leads to the same truth. Nothing
                  > > (no-existance) is everything.
                  > >
                  > > This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                  > > swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
                  > > (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
                  > > really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
                  > > look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
                  > > being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
                  > > want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                  > > eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
                  > > it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
                  > > runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
                  > > the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
                  > > everything!
                  > >
                  > > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                  > > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
                  > > and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
                  > > practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
                  > > for death of form when the contract expires.
                  >
                  >
                  > I like to swim and it leads to nothing
                  > i like to meditate searchlessly, yoga
                  > makes me feel good, [FEEL GOO!!!? i
                  > can hear the poliCe cursing UPON
                  > HEARING THE OTHER DIRTY WORD] altho
                  > i practice yoga without wanting to
                  > feel good this is just as the way it is
                  >
                  > i like to spend some of my time on
                  > earth with meditation i noticed it
                  > sharpened my intellect: it centers
                  > and calms me and gives me something
                  > else to do than to think about
                  > nothing = something around and around
                  >
                  >
                  > ---love, Karta
                • medit8ionsociety
                  Jason Fishman wrote: snip ... Dear Jason, The Inner Traveler is available by subscription, free with a membership in the Meditation Society
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
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                    Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:

                    snip
                    > Look forward to the new addition, How does one get an
                    > inner traveler, BTW? I'm sure it was mentioned before,
                    > yet it has seemed to have slipped my existing memory!
                    >
                    > Peace and Love
                    >
                    Dear Jason,
                    The Inner Traveler is available by subscription, free with a
                    membership in the Meditation Society of America, or by writing
                    something or sharing artwork for it. Also, I sometimes post the URL
                    for issues here on this group. We also now have available a CD of the
                    first 10 issues. Info can be found on our web site, Meditation Station
                    http://www.meditationsociety.com
                    Here's the URL of our sample issue:
                    http://www.meditationsociety.com/it71808/index.html
                    You will need the Adobe Reader tm 5.0 to read it. If you
                    don't have it, the Adobe Reader can be downloaded at:
                    http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html
                    Thanks for asking and I hope you enjoy and benefit from it if you do
                    check it out.
                    Peace and blessings,
                    Bob
                  • Jason Fishman
                    ... Any activity, this is what everything includes. For example you and I are having this conversation, you disagree with what is said, where does that get you
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > what are you saying? please name the
                      > activities what lead you to something
                      > [which is nothing of course]

                      Any activity, this is what everything includes. For
                      example you and I are having this conversation, you
                      disagree with what is said, where does that get you in
                      your mind? Another example, you have all this great
                      knowledge then one day your mind goes blank (such as
                      amnesia or altzimers disease does over time) what do
                      YOU have left? Does that mean all those things you
                      experienced and knowledge you gained never happened?
                      How would you know? You can't do them over. Think
                      about that, if you will.

                      > sounds like j* rhetoric, she
                      > brutally distorts and simplifies
                      > everything to make her point and
                      > gives the impression to the ranch
                      > members that they have a "special" *understanding* i
                      > hope this mutation
                      > in thinking can be reversed
                      > re-examined and to broaden ones
                      > view is still possible
                      >
                      > Jason, think on your own please

                      Karta, this is on my own, yet it's nothing special,
                      derived from thinking on my own and through the
                      teaching of everything. This is everything, how much
                      broader view can one have?

                      > God is in the detail. I thing
                      > it is admirable to learn the
                      > fundamentalist black & white formula
                      > and i enjoy the merry go around
                      > word-games spinning from something
                      > into nothing and than back again a
                      > game the ranch elite loves to play..

                      Of course god is in the detail. God IS everything,
                      everywhere every moment, you are not seperate from
                      god. There is no fundamentalism, yet everything is
                      fun-da-mental, light and dark, black and white. I'm
                      sorry you have had a bad experience with the ranch,
                      but they are not elite, nor have I been on the ranch
                      list. ALL are you, not seperate from you. Word spining
                      is conversations, tossing concepts to and fro which
                      amounts to nothing more then the moment which is based
                      on everything and nothing equally feeding on each
                      other.

                      > Are you talking about YOUR experience?

                      All experiences are exsistant. As said before one
                      cannot go to no-exsistance and come back to tell of
                      ones experience there.

                      > >
                      > > One can apparently be following what is called a
                      > > spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul
                      > is
                      > > the key to unlocking some mystery. They can
                      > attempt to
                      >
                      > WRONG! spiritual exercize is like
                      > the sports it is to optimise ones body-mind-spirit
                      > organism [spirit
                      > like enthusiasm, will-power not your
                      > teachers holy ghost on the way to
                      > her Savior, NO NEED TO mystify all]

                      Certainly, you said the same thing I said, how can
                      either of us be correct?

                      > > be fulfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                      > > force that is housed within a physical body to
                      > reach
                      >
                      > WRONG! again there are forces in the
                      > body like the force of an unavoidable
                      > bowel movement when one is full of
                      > shit and there is a force of a vacuum
                      > after all the air is emptied form
                      > the lungs, which force than will suck
                      > fresh air in
                      >
                      > and than there is the lifeforce energy
                      > of a living organism on the tracks
                      > of the nervous system and its plexuses
                      > which with training can be
                      > manipulated and used to refine the
                      > state of this living organism to an
                      > optimal point when it radiates
                      > intelligence etc


                      Of course, These are all parts of you which is
                      everything. This does not desribe HOW phenomena happen
                      in exsistance. This is something to KNOW. If all of
                      the earth was wiped out where only the soil and water
                      remained, did your knowledge go anywhere? Do you feel
                      you take something with you when death comes? How can
                      you? Everything you have is stored in memory, is in
                      mind, do you take mind with you? Once your gone, you
                      will take nothing more then what you came in with,
                      which is nothing more then everything.

                      > > some enlightened phase.
                      >
                      > YES! which phase one gains
                      > *understanding*: of course i mean
                      > the RIGHT understanding aka
                      > enlightened consciousness


                      Yes, phase one, phase two, phase ten million, all the
                      same thing, amounts to everything, which is already
                      what you have.

                      > This souls search always comes
                      > > up short handed, usually with a person looking
                      > hard
                      >
                      >
                      > WRONG! it comes up exactly as it does
                      > and as it IS

                      When you complete these phases, what do you expect to
                      gain? Will you be special then? Seperate from all
                      others and everything?

                      > > enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.
                      > >
                      >
                      > oh! the proverbial nothing which is something of
                      > course,
                      >
                      >
                      > i say it is a time WELL spent

                      Of course, what else will one do with the moments that
                      pass? It's all experiences that leads to knowledge,
                      that eventually give one wisdom, if those moments
                      arise that one is willing to ponder experience,
                      nothing more then what you already have.

                      >
                      > > Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                      > > physical search. The more money one amasses, or
                      > things
                      > > a person obtains leads exactly the same place
                      > with,
                      > > what a waste of time, what a big nothing.
                      > >
                      > > The emotion search is somewhat more tricky.
                      >
                      > clean and simple again: each activity is
                      > boiled down to to the dirty word to:
                      > *SEARCH* which of course leads to
                      > nothing [something<->nothing] my head
                      > is spinning iam getting dizzy

                      HEHE, getting dizzy is fun! One can decide they are no
                      longer searching, but there is always knowledge to
                      gain, experiences to experience, all of which are the
                      same activity of existance.


                      > >Each
                      > > living being has a set of programs. To feel
                      > something
                      > > based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                      > > threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared
                      > for
                      > > (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                      > > loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                      > > survival of the group). This again leads to
                      > nothing,
                      >
                      >
                      > by now with your disappointments that everything
                      > leads to nothing i'm moved
                      > to give you something.. i just don't
                      > know what ...

                      I have no disappointments, only freedom and clarity.
                      You can give me anything you'd like, yet I can only
                      retain the knowledge of your understanding for a
                      moment. Anything I do is what it is, then it's gone
                      before it's over, no different then you, it only
                      exists in memory.

                      > > following your heart may give one emotional
                      > > understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                      > > their insides (as the story goes) then that again
                      > leads
                      > > to the big emptiness of nothing.
                      > >
                      > > There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                      > > tool of the mind which encompasses all of the
                      > factors.
                      > > To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                      > > (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                      > > rationalize, experience and conceptualize
                      > knowledge
                      > > that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                      > > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                      > > witness stance, this leads to the same truth.
                      > Nothing
                      > > (no-existance) is everything.
                      > >
                      > > This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                      > > swallow. To think that everything you have ever
                      > done
                      > > (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you
                      > don't
                      > > really exist (only in the now), well most cannot
                      > even
                      > > look at that pill let alone consume it into their
                      > very
                      > > being. There must be more! People tell themselves,
                      > we
                      > > want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                      > > eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal,
                      > yet
                      > > it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the
                      > contract
                      > > runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you
                      > face
                      > > the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which
                      > is
                      > > everything!
                      > >
                      > > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                      > > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is
                      > nice
                      > > and ready to live the next day! One should make
                      > that a
                      > > practice, it does quite well and one will be all
                      > ready
                      > > for death of form when the contract expires.
                      >
                      >
                      > I like to swim and it leads to nothing
                      > i like to meditate searchlessly, yoga
                      > makes me feel good, [FEEL GOO!!!? i
                      > can hear the poliCe cursing UPON
                      > HEARING THE OTHER DIRTY WORD] altho

                      Yup, all experiences exist in the mind, all will be
                      gone in the blink of an eye. Whats left? Nothing :)

                      Peace and love to you Karta

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                      http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                    • Jason Fishman
                      ... Certainly Bob and thank you. I work in graphic arts. If you require something for your future publications, drop me a note and I ll see what can be done!
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                        > Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > snip
                        > > Look forward to the new addition, How does one get
                        > an
                        > > inner traveler, BTW? I'm sure it was mentioned
                        > before,
                        > > yet it has seemed to have slipped my existing
                        > memory!
                        > >
                        > > Peace and Love
                        > >
                        > Dear Jason,
                        > The Inner Traveler is available by subscription,
                        > free with a
                        > membership in the Meditation Society of America, or
                        > by writing
                        > something or sharing artwork for it. Also, I
                        > sometimes post the URL
                        > for issues here on this group. We also now have
                        > available a CD of the
                        > first 10 issues. Info can be found on our web site,
                        > Meditation Station
                        > http://www.meditationsociety.com
                        > Here's the URL of our sample issue:
                        > http://www.meditationsociety.com/it71808/index.html
                        > You will need the Adobe Reader tm 5.0 to read it. If
                        > you
                        > don't have it, the Adobe Reader can be downloaded
                        > at:
                        > http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html
                        > Thanks for asking and I hope you enjoy and benefit
                        > from it if you do
                        > check it out.
                        > Peace and blessings,
                        > Bob

                        Certainly Bob and thank you. I work in graphic arts.
                        If you require something for your future publications,
                        drop me a note and I'll see what can be done!

                        Peace and Love

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                        http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                      • Jason Fishman
                        ... This is what one knows, how could one tell you what you know? In your idea of assumptions... what assumptions are being made? No activities are any more or
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- "satkartar7 <mi_nok@...>" <mi_nok@...>
                          wrote:
                          > there are plenty of activities to chose
                          > from, and if you say you are a bundle
                          > of activities, than the best is to
                          > talk about your own: what you know
                          >
                          > don't ever think that your choice of
                          > activities are superior to others
                          >
                          > and do not assume why others do
                          > anything even if it is called 'sadna"
                          > just because you were exposed to a
                          > very limited view about what spirituality is
                          >
                          > ----K

                          This is what one knows, how could one tell you what
                          you know? In your idea of assumptions... what
                          assumptions are being made? No activities are any more
                          or less of anything any other does, how could it be,
                          it all is the same thing underneath?
                          No limits to everything, yet only nothing remains.

                          Peace and Love


                          __________________________________________________
                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                          http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                        • Gene Poole <gene_poole@qwest.net>
                          ... If you look at zero you see nothing, but if you look through it you see the world
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 1, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            "tosime" <tosime@b...> wrote:
                            > Hi Jason,
                            >
                            > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the very next post I received
                            > was...
                            >
                            > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                            > the "Great Nothing."
                            >
                            > It came one minute after yours.
                            >
                            > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                            >
                            > ...Tony


                            If you look at zero you see nothing, but if you look through it you
                            see the world


                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Jason <munkiman4u@y...> [mailto:munkiman4u@y...]
                            > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 1:38 AM
                            > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Top 10 spiritual practices
                            > -Tony
                            >
                            >
                            > No need to thank me :) there is nothing, but everything.
                            >
                            >
                            > Peace and Love
                            >
                            > > Hi Jason,
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for EVERYTHING...
                            > >
                            > > ...Tony
                            > >
                            > > Yes, a summary...
                            > > Everything you have listed equals nothing to do more
                            > > or less of.
                            > >
                            > > You can do meditation, yet you already are doing
                            > > meditation. You can write and read yahoo groups, yet
                            > > you already are writing and reading yahoo groups. You
                            > > can be introspective, yet you already are
                            > > introspecting. You can live in the now, yet you
                            > > already are living in the now. You can observe nature,
                            > > yet everything already is natural. You can teach,
                            > > study, learn, Yet you already teach, study, and learn.
                            > > Ahh my favorite, observing children, you already are
                            > > observing children. My least favorite, attending
                            > > church, again, you already attend church.
                            > >
                            > > This all comes down to a big nothing, a zero. No
                            > > matter what you do, in your mind, this doing is
                            > > something you are already doing. There is no doing,
                            > > yet all is doing. Any words one can express, any doing
                            > > one does can be flipped to an opposite, I'm not doing
                            > > this or I'm not saying that. Two opposings cancel
                            > > there for a zero, nothing. Its a circle of opposing
                            > > factors which is the summary of all things, a zero, a
                            > > huge never ending, never begining circle. You don't
                            > > exist, yet you exists in the mind :)
                            > >
                            > > Peace and Love
                            > >
                            > > __________________________________________________
                            > > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                            > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                            Jason Fishman wrote: Another example, you have all this great ... WHY? why would i think about such things ... One can dare to be real ...
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 2, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                              Another example, you have all this great
                              > knowledge then one day your mind goes blank (such as
                              > amnesia or altzimers disease does over time) what do
                              > YOU have left? Does that mean all those things you
                              > experienced and knowledge you gained never happened?
                              > How would you know? You can't do them over. Think
                              > about that, if you will.
                              >


                              WHY? why would i think about such things


                              > This is everything, how much
                              > broader view can one have?


                              One can dare to be real


                              >
                              > Of course, These are all parts of you which is
                              > everything. This does not desribe HOW phenomena happen
                              > in exsistance. This is something to KNOW. If all of
                              > the earth was wiped out where only the soil and water
                              > remained, did your knowledge go anywhere? Do you feel
                              > you take something with you when death comes? How can
                              > you? Everything you have is stored in memory, is in
                              > mind, do you take mind with you? Once your gone, you
                              > will take nothing more then what you came in with,
                              > which is nothing more then everything.
                              >

                              >
                              > Yes, phase one, phase two, phase ten million, all the
                              > same thing, amounts to everything, which is already
                              > what you have.
                              >

                              You Jason are a philosopher <smiles>


                              > One can decide they are no
                              > longer searching, but there is always knowledge to
                              > gain, experiences to experience, all of which are the
                              > same activity of existance.


                              oh! this obsession with the *search*


                              > This is the
                              > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                              > witness stance, this leads to the same truth.
                              > Nothing
                              > (no-existance) is everything.
                              >
                              > Yup, all experiences exist in the mind, all will be
                              > gone in the blink of an eye. Whats left? Nothing :)


                              ok Jason, i will keep in mind your
                              advice, that to 'search' is the
                              wrong activity and the notion of
                              the 'nothing' the later Gene's way
                              looking at the zero...

                              i am not a philosopher, ALL I
                              WANTED TO SAY is that: At times
                              when i dare to exist between nowhere
                              and somewhere between no ID and
                              a transient one to use what makes
                              me tick is getting into the *zone*
                              what is easy with sadna yoga and
                              meditation as i belive, that through
                              yoga practice consciousness can be
                              raised. And with higher
                              consciousness there IS [must be and
                              there is NOOOOO way around this]
                              a refinement of character an upgrade
                              in the ethics of action and yes!
                              an upgrade in *understanding* these
                              are biproducts of sadna

                              Jason, i am glad; that what makes
                              you tick is not trolling the
                              *spiritual* as in: SPIRITUAL lists
                              with knocking meditation and yoga,
                              or what ever is listed as the aim
                              of the club is: and trying to
                              recruit normal people to some funny
                              farm boot-camp to be insulted

                              because i am fead up with that


                              ----love,
                              Karta
                              >
                              > Peace and love to you Karta
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