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re: [Meditation Society of America] re: mind trick

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  • bardsley@clix.pt
    Hmm, that one really is freaky. Any ideas about it? Grant.
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 26, 2003
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      Hmm, that one really is freaky. Any ideas about it?

      Grant.


      > ** Original Subject: [Meditation Society of America] re: mind trick
      > ** Original Sender: "Michael A. Read" <maread@...>
      > ** Original Date: 26 Feb 2003 12:50:45 -0000

      > ** Original Message follows...

      >
      > Glad you all had some fun with it. I had a suspicion that none of you were quite 'normal',
      > statistically speaking of course. <grin>
      >
      > I though of an apple first. Yeah, yeah, an apple is a fruit! I know, then I quickly thought of a carrot.
      > Laughed my ass off so hard, Nasrudin couldn't find it! He thought of a club sandwich. Oh well...
      >
      > This one is really trippy: http://mr-31238.mr.valuehost.co.uk/assets/Flash/psychic.swf
      >
      > ciao,
      >
      > michael
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >


      >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **

      >
    • Michael Read <maread@taosnet.com>
      ... Yah, the clue is in the 9. Pick a 2 digit number, add the 2 digits, subtract from the 2 digit number, add the two numbers from the subtraction process and
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 27, 2003
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, bardsley@c...
        wrote:
        > Hmm, that one really is freaky. Any ideas about it?
        >
        > Grant.

        Yah, the clue is in the 9. Pick a 2 digit number, add the 2 digits,
        subtract from the 2 digit number, add the two numbers from the
        subtraction process and the answer is 9.

        ie:

        pick 73
        add 10
        sub 63
        6+3 = 9

        Observe the lhe list of symbols, every additive of 9
        0,9,18,27... all have the same symbol!

        The computer never misses. And we all go oooooooH!

        cute, eh?

        michael
      • bardsley@clix.pt
        Yeah, very cute, though the maths stuff always signals trick . Did you see the one about picking cards on NDS recently? Cute also. Thanks for passing this one
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 27, 2003
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          Yeah, very cute, though the maths stuff always signals 'trick'. Did you see the one about picking cards on NDS recently? Cute also. Thanks for passing this one on Michael.

          Grant.


          > ** Original Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] re: mind trick
          > ** Original Sender: "Michael Read <maread@...>" <maread@...>
          > ** Original Date: 27 Feb 2003 14:44:04 -0000

          > ** Original Message follows...

          >
          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, bardsley@c...
          > wrote:
          > > Hmm, that one really is freaky. Any ideas about it?
          > >
          > > Grant.
          >
          > Yah, the clue is in the 9. Pick a 2 digit number, add the 2 digits,
          > subtract from the 2 digit number, add the two numbers from the
          > subtraction process and the answer is 9.
          >
          > ie:
          >
          > pick 73
          > add 10
          > sub 63
          > 6+3 = 9
          >
          > Observe the lhe list of symbols, every additive of 9
          > 0,9,18,27... all have the same symbol!
          >
          > The computer never misses. And we all go oooooooH!
          >
          > cute, eh?
          >
          > michael
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >


          >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **

          >
        • Michael Read <maread@taosnet.com>
          ... you see the one about picking cards on NDS recently? Cute also. Thanks for passing this one on Michael. ... Yes, I saw that one with the cards. I think
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 27, 2003
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            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, bardsley@c...
            wrote:
            > Yeah, very cute, though the maths stuff always signals 'trick'. Did
            you see the one about picking cards on NDS recently? Cute also.
            Thanks for passing this one on Michael.
            >
            > Grant.

            Yes, I saw that one with the cards. I think Jerry did the first post
            on it on nds. It's another cutie. I remembered seeing that card trick
            a few years ago. But I had put it so far out of mind (as it were)
            that I had to solve the puzzle all over again.

            The way I puzzled the trick out was to pull back and simply observe
            what the trick did when no card was picked. Then the solution 'jumped
            out' so to speak.

            The card trick test of ESP can be found at
            http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/home.htm

            And for some hilarious 'explainations' of the test

            http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp4.html

            live laugh love and be happy,

            michael
          • Jason Fishman
            Yea really, unfortunatly I had seen this one before. It jumped out then also. Yet I m positive the computer knows how to read my mind!! LOL Thanks for sharing
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 27, 2003
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              Yea really, unfortunatly I had seen this one before.
              It jumped out then also. Yet I'm positive the computer
              knows how to read my mind!! LOL

              Thanks for sharing

              --- "Michael Read <maread@...>"
              <maread@...> wrote:
              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
              > bardsley@c...
              > wrote:
              > > Yeah, very cute, though the maths stuff always
              > signals 'trick'. Did
              > you see the one about picking cards on NDS recently?
              > Cute also.
              > Thanks for passing this one on Michael.
              > >
              > > Grant.
              >
              > Yes, I saw that one with the cards. I think Jerry
              > did the first post
              > on it on nds. It's another cutie. I remembered
              > seeing that card trick
              > a few years ago. But I had put it so far out of mind
              > (as it were)
              > that I had to solve the puzzle all over again.
              >
              > The way I puzzled the trick out was to pull back and
              > simply observe
              > what the trick did when no card was picked. Then the
              > solution 'jumped
              > out' so to speak.
              >
              > The card trick test of ESP can be found at
              > http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/home.htm
              >
              > And for some hilarious 'explainations' of the test
              >
              > http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp4.html
              >
              > live laugh love and be happy,
              >
              > michael
              >
              >


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            • medit8ionsociety
              Ok - they always say that the simplist answer is usually the right one, so, as far as the ESP trick... Since we don t know what to expect, our habitual
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 27, 2003
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                Ok - they always say that the simplist answer is usually the right
                one, so, as far as the ESP trick...
                Since we don't know what to expect, our habitual commentary and other
                mind chatter stops. This allows the universal consciousness to arise,
                and of course that consciousness knows everything, including what card
                we picked. Pretty obvious now that it's been explained, eh! :-)
                Peace and blessings,
                Bob
                "Michael Read <maread@t...>" <maread@t...> wrote:
                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, bardsley@c...
                > wrote:
                > > Yeah, very cute, though the maths stuff always signals 'trick'. Did
                > you see the one about picking cards on NDS recently? Cute also.
                > Thanks for passing this one on Michael.
                > >
                > > Grant.
                >
                > Yes, I saw that one with the cards. I think Jerry did the first post
                > on it on nds. It's another cutie. I remembered seeing that card trick
                > a few years ago. But I had put it so far out of mind (as it were)
                > that I had to solve the puzzle all over again.
                >
                > The way I puzzled the trick out was to pull back and simply observe
                > what the trick did when no card was picked. Then the solution 'jumped
                > out' so to speak.
                >
                > The card trick test of ESP can be found at
                > http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/home.htm
                >
                > And for some hilarious 'explainations' of the test
                >
                > http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp4.html
                >
                > live laugh love and be happy,
                >
                > michael
              • tosime
                Hello, My ISP was down for a few days. That s about 400 mails. So I restate my request that whoever starts a thread, please could they send a summary at the
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 27, 2003
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                  Hello,

                  My ISP was down for a few days. That's about 400 mails. So I restate my
                  request that whoever starts a thread, please could they send a summary at
                  the end of the thread. It would be a great help (to everyone) I think!

                  Meanwhile...

                  I was curious about this:

                  Could you post your top ten spiritual practices with some sort of rating -
                  something like this:

                  1) Meditation 10
                  2) Yahoo spiritual groups 7
                  3) Internet sites 5
                  4) Spiritual Books 5
                  5) Introspection 4
                  6) Presence (Now) 4
                  7) Observing Nature 4
                  8) Teaching 3
                  9) Observing my children 3
                  10) Church Service 2

                  My view of a spiritual practice is anything that raises your level of
                  consciousness. You might have a different view, which I would also very much
                  like to know.

                  Thanks in advance...Tony
                • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                  ... Karta: 1) Meditation 7 2) Yahoo spiritual groups 3 3) Internet sites 3 5 4) Spiritual Books 5 5)
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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                    tosime:
                    > Could you post your top ten spiritual practices with some sort of rating -
                    > something like this:
                    >
                    > 1) Meditation 10
                    > 2) Yahoo spiritual groups 7
                    > 3) Internet sites 5
                    > 4) Spiritual Books 5
                    > 5) Introspection 4
                    > 6) Presence (Now) 4
                    > 7) Observing Nature 4
                    > 8) Teaching 3
                    > 9) Observing my children 3
                    > 10) Church Service 2

                    Karta:

                    1) Meditation 7
                    2) Yahoo spiritual groups 3
                    3) Internet sites 3 5
                    4) Spiritual Books 5
                    5) Introspection 10 4
                    6) Presence (Now) 9 4
                    7) Observing Nature 4
                    8) Teaching ? 3
                    9) Observing my children ?
                    10) Church Service 0



                    > My view of a spiritual practice is anything that raises your level of
                    > consciousness. You might have a different view, which I would also very much
                    > like to know.
                    >
                    > Thanks in advance...Tony
                  • Jason Fishman
                    ... Hi Tony, Yes, a summary... Everything you have listed equals nothing to do more or less of. You can do meditation, yet you already are doing meditation.
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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                      --- tosime <tosime@...> wrote:
                      > Hello,
                      >
                      > My ISP was down for a few days. That's about 400
                      > mails. So I restate my
                      > request that whoever starts a thread, please could
                      > they send a summary at
                      > the end of the thread. It would be a great help (to
                      > everyone) I think!
                      >
                      > Meanwhile...
                      >
                      > I was curious about this:
                      >
                      > Could you post your top ten spiritual practices with
                      > some sort of rating -
                      > something like this:
                      >
                      > 1) Meditation 10
                      > 2) Yahoo spiritual groups 7
                      > 3) Internet sites 5
                      > 4) Spiritual Books 5
                      > 5) Introspection 4
                      > 6) Presence (Now) 4
                      > 7) Observing Nature 4
                      > 8) Teaching 3
                      > 9) Observing my children 3
                      > 10) Church Service 2
                      >
                      > My view of a spiritual practice is anything that
                      > raises your level of
                      > consciousness. You might have a different view,
                      > which I would also very much
                      > like to know.
                      >
                      > Thanks in advance...Tony
                      Hi Tony,

                      Yes, a summary...
                      Everything you have listed equals nothing to do more
                      or less of.

                      You can do meditation, yet you already are doing
                      meditation. You can write and read yahoo groups, yet
                      you already are writing and reading yahoo groups. You
                      can be introspective, yet you already are
                      introspecting. You can live in the now, yet you
                      already are living in the now. You can observe nature,
                      yet everything already is natural. You can teach,
                      study, learn, Yet you already teach, study, and learn.
                      Ahh my favorite, observing children, you already are
                      observing children. My least favorite, attending
                      church, again, you already attend church.

                      This all comes down to a big nothing, a zero. No
                      matter what you do, in your mind, this doing is
                      something you are already doing. There is no doing,
                      yet all is doing. Any words one can express, any doing
                      one does can be flipped to an opposite, I'm not doing
                      this or I'm not saying that. Two opposings cancel
                      there for a zero, nothing. Its a circle of opposing
                      factors which is the summary of all things, a zero, a
                      huge never ending, never begining circle. You don't
                      exist, yet you exists in the mind :)

                      Peace and Love

                      __________________________________________________
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                    • Michael Read <maread@taosnet.com>
                      ... other ... arise, ... card ... Yes, the joyous mystery of life! Wheeeeee... just a speck in a whirlwind. thanks Bob, michael
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
                        <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > Ok - they always say that the simplist answer is usually the right
                        > one, so, as far as the ESP trick...
                        > Since we don't know what to expect, our habitual commentary and
                        other
                        > mind chatter stops. This allows the universal consciousness to
                        arise,
                        > and of course that consciousness knows everything, including what
                        card
                        > we picked. Pretty obvious now that it's been explained, eh! :-)
                        > Peace and blessings,
                        > Bob

                        Yes, the joyous mystery of life!
                        Wheeeeee... just a speck in a whirlwind.

                        thanks Bob,

                        michael
                      • tosime
                        Thanks Karta, Teaching for me refers to my training practice. I facilitate various courses. When it comes to interpersonal skills I sometimes feel myself in
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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                          Thanks Karta,

                          Teaching for me refers to my training practice. I facilitate various
                          courses. When it comes to interpersonal skills I sometimes feel myself in
                          the audience watching my presentation - it is almost an OBE.

                          Observing my children is a great delight. It is almost like recreating my
                          childhood experiences and understanding them in a new light. My little
                          daughter is an expert in "pulling people's strings" she knows just what to
                          say or do to get exactly the response she wants - it is awesome. The fun
                          part for me is watching my reactions being manipulated and deciding whether
                          to go with them or pass this time.

                          I am curious with the 10 you put for introspection. What is this for you?

                          ...Tony

                          Karta:

                          1) Meditation 7
                          2) Yahoo spiritual groups 3
                          3) Internet sites 3 5
                          4) Spiritual Books 5
                          5) Introspection 10 4
                          6) Presence (Now) 9 4
                          7) Observing Nature 4
                          8) Teaching ? 3
                          9) Observing my children ?
                          10) Church Service 0



                          > My view of a spiritual practice is anything that raises your level of
                          > consciousness. You might have a different view, which I would also very
                          much
                          > like to know.
                          >
                          > Thanks in advance...Tony




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                          meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                        • tosime
                          Hi Jason, Thanks for EVERYTHING... ...Tony Yes, a summary... Everything you have listed equals nothing to do more or less of. You can do meditation, yet you
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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                            Hi Jason,

                            Thanks for EVERYTHING...

                            ...Tony

                            Yes, a summary...
                            Everything you have listed equals nothing to do more
                            or less of.

                            You can do meditation, yet you already are doing
                            meditation. You can write and read yahoo groups, yet
                            you already are writing and reading yahoo groups. You
                            can be introspective, yet you already are
                            introspecting. You can live in the now, yet you
                            already are living in the now. You can observe nature,
                            yet everything already is natural. You can teach,
                            study, learn, Yet you already teach, study, and learn.
                            Ahh my favorite, observing children, you already are
                            observing children. My least favorite, attending
                            church, again, you already attend church.

                            This all comes down to a big nothing, a zero. No
                            matter what you do, in your mind, this doing is
                            something you are already doing. There is no doing,
                            yet all is doing. Any words one can express, any doing
                            one does can be flipped to an opposite, I'm not doing
                            this or I'm not saying that. Two opposings cancel
                            there for a zero, nothing. Its a circle of opposing
                            factors which is the summary of all things, a zero, a
                            huge never ending, never begining circle. You don't
                            exist, yet you exists in the mind :)

                            Peace and Love

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                            http://taxes.yahoo.com/


                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                          • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                            ... this sounds wonderful ... Thanks Tony for making it clear, i re did your questionnaire, since i value than teaching high. [ i hope i won t get spanked by
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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                              "tosime wrote:
                              > Teaching for me refers to my training practice. I facilitate various
                              > courses. When it comes to interpersonal skills I sometimes feel myself in
                              > the audience watching my presentation - it is almost an OBE.
                              >
                              > Observing my children is a great delight. It is almost like recreating my
                              > childhood experiences and understanding them in a new light. My little
                              > daughter is an expert in "pulling people's strings" she knows just what to
                              > say or do to get exactly the response she wants - it is awesome.

                              this sounds wonderful

                              > The fun
                              > part for me is watching my reactions being manipulated and deciding whether
                              > to go with them or pass this time.
                              >
                              > I am curious with the 10 you put for introspection. What is this for you?


                              Thanks Tony for making it clear, i
                              re did your questionnaire, since i value
                              than 'teaching' high. [ i hope i won't get spanked by the police because iam *searching* or some other stupid accusations they issue for those who read, practice meditation, or yoga ]

                              Introspection i started as kid my mom made me examine and think about the day before falling asleep. Now it means to do some vichara, i think what you listed as *presence* is my main focus

                              1) Meditation 8
                              2) Yahoo spiritual groups 3
                              3) Internet sites 3
                              4) Spiritual Books 5
                              5) Introspection 8
                              6) Presence (Now) 9
                              7) Observing Nature 4
                              8) Teaching 7
                              9) Observing my children ?
                              10) Church Service 0
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > My view of a spiritual practice is anything that raises your level of
                              > consciousness. You might have a different
                              > view, which I would also very
                              > much like to know.


                              i have the same view Tony as yourselves,
                              PRACTICE IS ABOVE ALL no amount of
                              reading equals to it and meditation
                              leads to refinement of character and *UNDERSTANDING* aka higher consciousness

                              ---love,
                              Karta
                              ps: i have difficulty meditating now..
                              >
                              .Tony
                              >
                            • Jason <munkiman4u@yahoo.com>
                              No need to thank me :) there is nothing, but everything. Peace and Love ... http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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                                No need to thank me :) there is nothing, but everything.


                                Peace and Love

                                > Hi Jason,
                                >
                                > Thanks for EVERYTHING...
                                >
                                > ...Tony
                                >
                                > Yes, a summary...
                                > Everything you have listed equals nothing to do more
                                > or less of.
                                >
                                > You can do meditation, yet you already are doing
                                > meditation. You can write and read yahoo groups, yet
                                > you already are writing and reading yahoo groups. You
                                > can be introspective, yet you already are
                                > introspecting. You can live in the now, yet you
                                > already are living in the now. You can observe nature,
                                > yet everything already is natural. You can teach,
                                > study, learn, Yet you already teach, study, and learn.
                                > Ahh my favorite, observing children, you already are
                                > observing children. My least favorite, attending
                                > church, again, you already attend church.
                                >
                                > This all comes down to a big nothing, a zero. No
                                > matter what you do, in your mind, this doing is
                                > something you are already doing. There is no doing,
                                > yet all is doing. Any words one can express, any doing
                                > one does can be flipped to an opposite, I'm not doing
                                > this or I'm not saying that. Two opposings cancel
                                > there for a zero, nothing. Its a circle of opposing
                                > factors which is the summary of all things, a zero, a
                                > huge never ending, never begining circle. You don't
                                > exist, yet you exists in the mind :)
                                >
                                > Peace and Love
                                >
                                > __________________________________________________
                                > Do you Yahoo!?
                                > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                                > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                >
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • tosime
                                Hi Jason, This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the very next post I received was... ... the Great Nothing. It came one minute after yours. Is there
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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                                  Hi Jason,

                                  This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the very next post I received
                                  was...

                                  :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                                  the "Great Nothing."

                                  It came one minute after yours.

                                  Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?

                                  ...Tony

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Jason <munkiman4u@...> [mailto:munkiman4u@...]
                                  Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 1:38 AM
                                  To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Top 10 spiritual practices
                                  -Tony


                                  No need to thank me :) there is nothing, but everything.


                                  Peace and Love

                                  > Hi Jason,
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for EVERYTHING...
                                  >
                                  > ...Tony
                                  >
                                  > Yes, a summary...
                                  > Everything you have listed equals nothing to do more
                                  > or less of.
                                  >
                                  > You can do meditation, yet you already are doing
                                  > meditation. You can write and read yahoo groups, yet
                                  > you already are writing and reading yahoo groups. You
                                  > can be introspective, yet you already are
                                  > introspecting. You can live in the now, yet you
                                  > already are living in the now. You can observe nature,
                                  > yet everything already is natural. You can teach,
                                  > study, learn, Yet you already teach, study, and learn.
                                  > Ahh my favorite, observing children, you already are
                                  > observing children. My least favorite, attending
                                  > church, again, you already attend church.
                                  >
                                  > This all comes down to a big nothing, a zero. No
                                  > matter what you do, in your mind, this doing is
                                  > something you are already doing. There is no doing,
                                  > yet all is doing. Any words one can express, any doing
                                  > one does can be flipped to an opposite, I'm not doing
                                  > this or I'm not saying that. Two opposings cancel
                                  > there for a zero, nothing. Its a circle of opposing
                                  > factors which is the summary of all things, a zero, a
                                  > huge never ending, never begining circle. You don't
                                  > exist, yet you exists in the mind :)
                                  >
                                  > Peace and Love
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________________________
                                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                                  > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                                  > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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                                • Jason Fishman
                                  ... Well Tony, One can say spritual, one can say emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to nothing. One can apparently be following what is called
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 28, 2003
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                                    --- tosime <tosime@...> wrote:
                                    > Hi Jason,
                                    >
                                    > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
                                    > very next post I received
                                    > was...
                                    >
                                    > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
                                    > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                                    > the "Great Nothing."
                                    >
                                    > It came one minute after yours.
                                    >
                                    > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                                    >
                                    > ...Tony

                                    Well Tony, One can say spritual, one can say
                                    emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
                                    nothing.

                                    One can apparently be following what is called a
                                    spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
                                    the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to
                                    be fullfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                                    force that is housed within a physical body to reach
                                    some enlightened phase. This souls search always comes
                                    up short handed, usually with a person looking hard
                                    enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.

                                    Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                                    physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
                                    a person obtains leds exactly the sasme place with,
                                    what a waste of time, what a big nothing.

                                    The emotion search is somewhat more tricky. Each
                                    living being has a set of programs. To feel something
                                    based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                                    threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
                                    (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                                    loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                                    survival of the group). This again leds to nothing,
                                    following your heart may give one emotional
                                    understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                                    their insides (as the story goes) then that again leds
                                    to the big emptiness of nothing.

                                    There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                                    tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
                                    To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                                    (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                                    rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
                                    that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                                    heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                                    witness stance, this leds to the same truth. Nothing
                                    (no-existance) is everything.

                                    This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                                    swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
                                    (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
                                    really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
                                    look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
                                    being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
                                    want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                                    eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
                                    it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
                                    runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
                                    the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
                                    everything!

                                    Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                                    everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
                                    and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
                                    practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
                                    for death of form when the contract expires.

                                    __________________________________________________
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                                  • tosime
                                    Hi Jason, This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for giving me a better understanding of the nothing perspective. I was very intrigued with the 4 factor , the
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 1 2:49 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Jason,

                                      This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for giving me a better understanding of
                                      the "nothing" perspective.

                                      I was very intrigued with the "4 factor", the witness stance. There is one
                                      aspect I would like more clarity on. When you say that the witness stance
                                      leads to the same truth - nothing (non-existence) is everything; is this
                                      from personal experience or from reasoning? If from personal experience I
                                      would really appreciate a description of how you realized this. If it is
                                      from reasoning, I wonder how we would know that any stance is the final
                                      stance, so to speak. For instance, if we are witnessing the other dimensions
                                      of our mind, would it be possible to witness ourselves witnessing? (I hope
                                      this is not getting too complicated!).

                                      I am simply guessing here. It would seem to me that complexity is the mind's
                                      perspective. Pure experience is free from complexity and judgment and would
                                      be very hard to talk about. The "nothing" perspective becomes a mind
                                      construction. Of the millions of possible constructions, why choose
                                      "nothing"?

                                      I sense a kind of frustration here, like someone trying to explain an
                                      experience in another dimension but not having any words which point
                                      directly at the other dimension.

                                      ...Tony

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Jason Fishman [mailto:munkiman4u@...]
                                      Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 8:54 AM
                                      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] #1 Life practice -Tony



                                      --- tosime <tosime@...> wrote:
                                      > Hi Jason,
                                      >
                                      > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
                                      > very next post I received
                                      > was...
                                      >
                                      > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
                                      > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                                      > the "Great Nothing."
                                      >
                                      > It came one minute after yours.
                                      >
                                      > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                                      >
                                      > ...Tony

                                      Well Tony, One can say spritual, one can say
                                      emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
                                      nothing.

                                      One can apparently be following what is called a
                                      spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
                                      the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to
                                      be fullfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                                      force that is housed within a physical body to reach
                                      some enlightened phase. This souls search always comes
                                      up short handed, usually with a person looking hard
                                      enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.

                                      Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                                      physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
                                      a person obtains leds exactly the sasme place with,
                                      what a waste of time, what a big nothing.

                                      The emotion search is somewhat more tricky. Each
                                      living being has a set of programs. To feel something
                                      based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                                      threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
                                      (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                                      loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                                      survival of the group). This again leds to nothing,
                                      following your heart may give one emotional
                                      understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                                      their insides (as the story goes) then that again leds
                                      to the big emptiness of nothing.

                                      There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                                      tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
                                      To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                                      (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                                      rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
                                      that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                                      heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                                      witness stance, this leds to the same truth. Nothing
                                      (no-existance) is everything.

                                      This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                                      swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
                                      (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
                                      really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
                                      look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
                                      being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
                                      want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                                      eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
                                      it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
                                      runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
                                      the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
                                      everything!

                                      Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                                      everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
                                      and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
                                      practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
                                      for death of form when the contract expires.

                                      __________________________________________________
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                                    • medit8ionsociety
                                      ... Yeah, co-incidences. I just got done putting the art in place for the lead article in the next issue of The Inner Traveler. The title of the article and
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 1 2:50 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        > --- tosime <tosime@b...> wrote:
                                        > > Hi Jason,
                                        > >
                                        > > This is quite a coincidence...

                                        Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                                        > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
                                        > and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
                                        > practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
                                        > for death of form when the contract expires.
                                        >
                                        Yeah, co-incidences. I just got done putting the art in place for the
                                        lead article in the next issue of The Inner Traveler. The title of the
                                        article and meditation technique is "Death and How to Prepare For It".
                                        Way cool that Jason mentions this exact thing in this Now. Gurdjieff
                                        indicated more than once that the goofiest thing people did was to act
                                        as if they were immortal and they had all the time in the world to get
                                        down to serious "Work". Meditating on Death isn't alot of fun, that's
                                        why it makes for excellent "Intentional Suffering". And Tonyji asks
                                        "Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?" Well, that's a
                                        significant point. Our ego's and body's, and emotions as well as our
                                        thoughts are as nothing, have come from nothing, and will certainly be
                                        nothing for billions of years. With this perspective in place, and it
                                        actually always is, One is free of everything that happened to or is
                                        happening to or will ever happen to the fantasy creature we have
                                        constructed that we call "Me". This Me has alot of "somethings"
                                        attached to it, and that's where our desire and thus our karma and
                                        suffering comes in. Without "Me", we have Nothing, and thus nothing to
                                        worry us. Unfortunatly we take that Me very seriously, and aren't
                                        serious at all about what we should be serious about, and that is the
                                        "Work" of annihilating this phantom person. So, as Chief Dan George
                                        said many times in the excellent film Little Big Man, "Today is a good
                                        day to die." And that is well worth meditating about.
                                        Peace and blessings,
                                        Bob
                                        BTW, wait til you see the fantastic art that will be featured in the
                                        article I mentioned. New artist for us, and certainly world quality,
                                        as are all of our artists and authors. So, don't actually drop the
                                        physical just yet! :-)
                                      • Jason Fishman
                                        ... Actualy Tony, what may really cook your noodle is the questions of... how can one of mind take on a perspective of no existance? Wouldn t one have to not
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 1 4:59 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- tosime <tosime@...> wrote:
                                          > Hi Jason,
                                          >
                                          > This is fascinating stuff. Thanks for giving me a
                                          > better understanding of
                                          > the "nothing" perspective.

                                          Actualy Tony, what may really cook your noodle is the
                                          questions of... how can one of mind take on a
                                          perspective of no existance? Wouldn't one have to not
                                          exists to take that stance? And if one does not
                                          exists, there would be no mind to experience this none
                                          existance and come back to body to tell of it's
                                          experience of no existance? Although I do understand
                                          what your asking for, those questions are a little bit
                                          deeper then the one you poise below...


                                          > I was very intrigued with the "4 factor", the
                                          > witness stance. There is one
                                          > aspect I would like more clarity on. When you say
                                          > that the witness stance
                                          > leads to the same truth - nothing (non-existence) is
                                          > everything; is this
                                          > from personal experience or from reasoning?

                                          Personal experience is also reasoning, one has to rip
                                          the seperation of conditions apart. You do not exist
                                          or you exist in states are the only 2 seperations one
                                          can define. Light or dark, for example.

                                          If from
                                          > personal experience I
                                          > would really appreciate a description of how you
                                          > realized this. If it is
                                          > from reasoning, I wonder how we would know that any
                                          > stance is the final
                                          > stance, so to speak. For instance, if we are
                                          > witnessing the other dimensions
                                          > of our mind, would it be possible to witness
                                          > ourselves witnessing? (I hope
                                          > this is not getting too complicated!).

                                          Not complicated, extremly simple when broken down into
                                          existance and non-existance. As far as witnessing
                                          oneself witnessing. Certainly, we can video tape
                                          ourselves doing something. What you are asking, I
                                          think, is to witness the mind at work. You and I are
                                          writing each other, this seems seperated by 2 people
                                          over a large distance, yet this is the same thing as
                                          mind witnessing mind, you and I are not separate, only
                                          of mind. You read my words and hear my perspective,
                                          your mind makes thoughts about what I'm trying to say
                                          and breaks them down to logic that you can refer to,
                                          no different then what I'm doing or your doing in the
                                          mind. Your seeing inside your own head, everytime you
                                          listen to or read someone elses words.

                                          > I am simply guessing here. It would seem to me that
                                          > complexity is the mind's
                                          > perspective. Pure experience is free from complexity
                                          > and judgment and would
                                          > be very hard to talk about. The "nothing"
                                          > perspective becomes a mind
                                          > construction. Of the millions of possible
                                          > constructions, why choose
                                          > "nothing"?

                                          Ahh perfect question. Anything one can construct is
                                          inside of this reality of existance (so to speak) yet
                                          after you break down the complexity of whats really
                                          going on, everyones truth sounds the same, every
                                          manifestation one can procure becomes complete clarity
                                          in simplicity. Everything brings one back to nothing,
                                          over and over and over again, infinitely circular.
                                          Heres a few questions you can ask yourself... Is it
                                          just an irony that man has devised a number system
                                          with a zero (a nothing) that is a simple circle? What
                                          not an 8 to repesent nothing? Or is that just another
                                          sumbliminal clue of what everything REALLY comes down
                                          to? Existance is an infinite circle that is a zero, a
                                          nothing.

                                          > I sense a kind of frustration here, like someone
                                          > trying to explain an
                                          > experience in another dimension but not having any
                                          > words which point
                                          > directly at the other dimension.

                                          Yes, in a sense that would be the case. Pointing to
                                          nothing can really not be expressed, a dimension of
                                          non-existance (see the "bake your noodle question
                                          above"). Since one cannot go to non-existance and come
                                          back to describe it. This leaves for infinite
                                          possiblities within exsistance, none of which will not
                                          link up to itself endlessly.

                                          > ...Tony

                                          Peace and Love to you

                                          __________________________________________________
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                                        • Jason Fishman
                                          Very good Bob, I haven t dropped out of existance just this moment, but you d better hurry, you never know which moment you will realize fully that you don t
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 1 7:06 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Very good Bob, I haven't dropped out of existance just
                                            this moment, but you'd better hurry, you never know
                                            which moment you will realize fully that you don't
                                            exist!

                                            Look forward to the new addition, How does one get an
                                            inner traveler, BTW? I'm sure it was mentioned before,
                                            yet it has seemed to have slipped my existing memory!

                                            Peace and Love

                                            --- medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                            > > --- tosime <tosime@b...> wrote:
                                            > > > Hi Jason,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > This is quite a coincidence...
                                            >
                                            > Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                                            > > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is
                                            > nice
                                            > > and ready to live the next day! One should make
                                            > that a
                                            > > practice, it does quite well and one will be all
                                            > ready
                                            > > for death of form when the contract expires.
                                            > >
                                            > Yeah, co-incidences. I just got done putting the art
                                            > in place for the
                                            > lead article in the next issue of The Inner
                                            > Traveler. The title of the
                                            > article and meditation technique is "Death and How
                                            > to Prepare For It".
                                            > Way cool that Jason mentions this exact thing in
                                            > this Now. Gurdjieff
                                            > indicated more than once that the goofiest thing
                                            > people did was to act
                                            > as if they were immortal and they had all the time
                                            > in the world to get
                                            > down to serious "Work". Meditating on Death isn't
                                            > alot of fun, that's
                                            > why it makes for excellent "Intentional Suffering".
                                            > And Tonyji asks
                                            > "Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?"
                                            > Well, that's a
                                            > significant point. Our ego's and body's, and
                                            > emotions as well as our
                                            > thoughts are as nothing, have come from nothing, and
                                            > will certainly be
                                            > nothing for billions of years. With this perspective
                                            > in place, and it
                                            > actually always is, One is free of everything that
                                            > happened to or is
                                            > happening to or will ever happen to the fantasy
                                            > creature we have
                                            > constructed that we call "Me". This Me has alot of
                                            > "somethings"
                                            > attached to it, and that's where our desire and thus
                                            > our karma and
                                            > suffering comes in. Without "Me", we have Nothing,
                                            > and thus nothing to
                                            > worry us. Unfortunatly we take that Me very
                                            > seriously, and aren't
                                            > serious at all about what we should be serious
                                            > about, and that is the
                                            > "Work" of annihilating this phantom person. So, as
                                            > Chief Dan George
                                            > said many times in the excellent film Little Big
                                            > Man, "Today is a good
                                            > day to die." And that is well worth meditating
                                            > about.
                                            > Peace and blessings,
                                            > Bob
                                            > BTW, wait til you see the fantastic art that will be
                                            > featured in the
                                            > article I mentioned. New artist for us, and
                                            > certainly world quality,
                                            > as are all of our artists and authors. So, don't
                                            > actually drop the
                                            > physical just yet! :-)
                                            >
                                            >


                                            __________________________________________________
                                            Do you Yahoo!?
                                            Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                                            http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                          • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                                            ... what are you saying? please name the activities what lead you to something [which is nothing of course] sounds like j* rhetoric, she brutally distorts and
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 1 7:31 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              > Hi Jason,
                                              >
                                              > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
                                              > very next post I received
                                              > was...
                                              >
                                              > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
                                              > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                                              > the "Great Nothing."
                                              >
                                              > It came one minute after yours.
                                              >
                                              > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                                              >
                                              > ...Tony
                                              >
                                              > Well Tony, One can say spiritual, one can say
                                              > emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
                                              > nothing.


                                              what are you saying? please name the
                                              activities what lead you to something
                                              [which is nothing of course]

                                              sounds like j* rhetoric, she
                                              brutally distorts and simplifies
                                              everything to make her point and
                                              gives the impression to the ranch
                                              members that they have a "special" *understanding* i hope this mutation
                                              in thinking can be reversed
                                              re-examined and to broaden ones
                                              view is still possible

                                              Jason, think on your own please

                                              God is in the detail. I thing
                                              it is admirable to learn the
                                              fundamentalist black & white formula
                                              and i enjoy the merry go around
                                              word-games spinning from something
                                              into nothing and than back again a
                                              game the ranch elite loves to play..


                                              Are you talking about YOUR experience?


                                              >
                                              > One can apparently be following what is called a
                                              > spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
                                              > the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to

                                              WRONG! spiritual exercize is like
                                              the sports it is to optimise ones body-mind-spirit organism [spirit
                                              like enthusiasm, will-power not your
                                              teachers holy ghost on the way to
                                              her Savior, NO NEED TO mystify all]

                                              > be fulfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                                              > force that is housed within a physical body to reach

                                              WRONG! again there are forces in the
                                              body like the force of an unavoidable
                                              bowel movement when one is full of
                                              shit and there is a force of a vacuum
                                              after all the air is emptied form
                                              the lungs, which force than will suck
                                              fresh air in

                                              and than there is the lifeforce energy
                                              of a living organism on the tracks
                                              of the nervous system and its plexuses
                                              which with training can be
                                              manipulated and used to refine the
                                              state of this living organism to an
                                              optimal point when it radiates
                                              intelligence etc

                                              > some enlightened phase.

                                              YES! which phase one gains
                                              *understanding*: of course i mean
                                              the RIGHT understanding aka
                                              enlightened consciousness

                                              This souls search always comes
                                              > up short handed, usually with a person looking hard


                                              WRONG! it comes up exactly as it does
                                              and as it IS


                                              > enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.
                                              >

                                              oh! the proverbial nothing which is something of course,


                                              i say it is a time WELL spent


                                              > Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                                              > physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
                                              > a person obtains leads exactly the same place with,
                                              > what a waste of time, what a big nothing.
                                              >
                                              > The emotion search is somewhat more tricky.

                                              clean and simple again: each activity is
                                              boiled down to to the dirty word to:
                                              *SEARCH* which of course leads to
                                              nothing [something<->nothing] my head
                                              is spinning iam getting dizzy


                                              >Each
                                              > living being has a set of programs. To feel something
                                              > based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                                              > threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
                                              > (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                                              > loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                                              > survival of the group). This again leads to nothing,


                                              by now with your disappointments that everything leads to nothing i'm moved
                                              to give you something.. i just don't
                                              know what ...


                                              > following your heart may give one emotional
                                              > understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                                              > their insides (as the story goes) then that again leads
                                              > to the big emptiness of nothing.
                                              >
                                              > There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                                              > tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
                                              > To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                                              > (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                                              > rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
                                              > that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                                              > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                                              > witness stance, this leads to the same truth. Nothing
                                              > (no-existance) is everything.
                                              >
                                              > This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                                              > swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
                                              > (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
                                              > really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
                                              > look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
                                              > being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
                                              > want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                                              > eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
                                              > it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
                                              > runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
                                              > the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
                                              > everything!
                                              >
                                              > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                                              > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
                                              > and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
                                              > practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
                                              > for death of form when the contract expires.


                                              I like to swim and it leads to nothing
                                              i like to meditate searchlessly, yoga
                                              makes me feel good, [FEEL GOO!!!? i
                                              can hear the poliCe cursing UPON
                                              HEARING THE OTHER DIRTY WORD] altho
                                              i practice yoga without wanting to
                                              feel good this is just as the way it is

                                              i like to spend some of my time on
                                              earth with meditation i noticed it
                                              sharpened my intellect: it centers
                                              and calms me and gives me something
                                              else to do than to think about
                                              nothing = something around and around


                                              ---love, Karta
                                            • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                                              there are plenty of activities to chose from, and if you say you are a bundle of activities, than the best is to talk about your own: what you know don t ever
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 1 9:04 AM
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                there are plenty of activities to chose
                                                from, and if you say you are a bundle
                                                of activities, than the best is to
                                                talk about your own: what you know

                                                don't ever think that your choice of
                                                activities are superior to others

                                                and do not assume why others do
                                                anything even if it is called 'sadna"
                                                just because you were exposed to a
                                                very limited view about what spirituality is

                                                ----K

                                                > Hi Jason,
                                                >
                                                > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the
                                                > very next post I received
                                                > was...
                                                >
                                                > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really
                                                > nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                                                > the "Great Nothing."
                                                >
                                                > It came one minute after yours.
                                                >
                                                > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                                                >
                                                > ...Tony
                                                >
                                                > > Jason: Well Tony, One can say spiritual, one can say
                                                > >emotional, one can say physical, all of which leads to
                                                > >nothing.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Karta: what are you saying? please name the
                                                > activities what lead you to something
                                                > [which is nothing of course]
                                                >
                                                > sounds like j* rhetoric, she
                                                > brutally distorts and simplifies
                                                > everything to make her point and
                                                > gives the impression to the ranch
                                                > members that they have a "special" *understanding* i hope this mutation
                                                > in thinking can be reversed
                                                > re-examined and to broaden ones
                                                > view is still possible
                                                >
                                                > Jason, think on your own please
                                                >
                                                > God is in the detail. I thing
                                                > it is admirable to learn the
                                                > fundamentalist black & white formula
                                                > and i enjoy the merry go around
                                                > word-games spinning from something
                                                > into nothing and than back again a
                                                > game the ranch elite loves to play..
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Are you talking about YOUR experience?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > One can apparently be following what is called a
                                                > > spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul is
                                                > > the key to unlocking some mystery. They can attempt to
                                                >
                                                > WRONG! spiritual exercize is like
                                                > the sports it is to optimise ones body-mind-spirit organism [spirit
                                                > like enthusiasm, will-power not your
                                                > teachers holy ghost on the way to
                                                > her Savior, NO NEED TO mystify all]
                                                >
                                                > > be fulfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                                                > > force that is housed within a physical body to reach
                                                >
                                                > WRONG! again there are forces in the
                                                > body like the force of an unavoidable
                                                > bowel movement when one is full of
                                                > shit and there is a force of a vacuum
                                                > after all the air is emptied form
                                                > the lungs, which force than will suck
                                                > fresh air in
                                                >
                                                > and than there is the lifeforce energy
                                                > of a living organism on the tracks
                                                > of the nervous system and its plexuses
                                                > which with training can be
                                                > manipulated and used to refine the
                                                > state of this living organism to an
                                                > optimal point when it radiates
                                                > intelligence etc
                                                >
                                                > > some enlightened phase.
                                                >
                                                > YES! which phase one gains
                                                > *understanding*: of course i mean
                                                > the RIGHT understanding aka
                                                > enlightened consciousness
                                                >
                                                > This souls search always comes
                                                > > up short handed, usually with a person looking hard
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > WRONG! it comes up exactly as it does
                                                > and as it IS
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > oh! the proverbial nothing which is something of course,
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > i say it is a time WELL spent
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                                                > > physical search. The more money one amasses, or things
                                                > > a person obtains leads exactly the same place with,
                                                > > what a waste of time, what a big nothing.
                                                > >
                                                > > The emotion search is somewhat more tricky.
                                                >
                                                > clean and simple again: each activity is
                                                > boiled down to to the dirty word to:
                                                > *SEARCH* which of course leads to
                                                > nothing [something<->nothing] my head
                                                > is spinning iam getting dizzy
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >Each
                                                > > living being has a set of programs. To feel something
                                                > > based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                                                > > threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared for
                                                > > (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                                                > > loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                                                > > survival of the group). This again leads to nothing,
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > by now with your disappointments that everything leads to nothing i'm moved
                                                > to give you something.. i just don't
                                                > know what ...
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > following your heart may give one emotional
                                                > > understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                                                > > their insides (as the story goes) then that again leads
                                                > > to the big emptiness of nothing.
                                                > >
                                                > > There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                                                > > tool of the mind which encompasses all of the factors.
                                                > > To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                                                > > (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                                                > > rationalize, experience and conceptualize knowledge
                                                > > that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                                                > > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                                                > > witness stance, this leads to the same truth. Nothing
                                                > > (no-existance) is everything.
                                                > >
                                                > > This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                                                > > swallow. To think that everything you have ever done
                                                > > (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you don't
                                                > > really exist (only in the now), well most cannot even
                                                > > look at that pill let alone consume it into their very
                                                > > being. There must be more! People tell themselves, we
                                                > > want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                                                > > eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal, yet
                                                > > it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the contract
                                                > > runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you face
                                                > > the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which is
                                                > > everything!
                                                > >
                                                > > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                                                > > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is nice
                                                > > and ready to live the next day! One should make that a
                                                > > practice, it does quite well and one will be all ready
                                                > > for death of form when the contract expires.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I like to swim and it leads to nothing
                                                > i like to meditate searchlessly, yoga
                                                > makes me feel good, [FEEL GOO!!!? i
                                                > can hear the poliCe cursing UPON
                                                > HEARING THE OTHER DIRTY WORD] altho
                                                > i practice yoga without wanting to
                                                > feel good this is just as the way it is
                                                >
                                                > i like to spend some of my time on
                                                > earth with meditation i noticed it
                                                > sharpened my intellect: it centers
                                                > and calms me and gives me something
                                                > else to do than to think about
                                                > nothing = something around and around
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ---love, Karta
                                              • medit8ionsociety
                                                Jason Fishman wrote: snip ... Dear Jason, The Inner Traveler is available by subscription, free with a membership in the Meditation Society
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 1 9:05 AM
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                                                  Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:

                                                  snip
                                                  > Look forward to the new addition, How does one get an
                                                  > inner traveler, BTW? I'm sure it was mentioned before,
                                                  > yet it has seemed to have slipped my existing memory!
                                                  >
                                                  > Peace and Love
                                                  >
                                                  Dear Jason,
                                                  The Inner Traveler is available by subscription, free with a
                                                  membership in the Meditation Society of America, or by writing
                                                  something or sharing artwork for it. Also, I sometimes post the URL
                                                  for issues here on this group. We also now have available a CD of the
                                                  first 10 issues. Info can be found on our web site, Meditation Station
                                                  http://www.meditationsociety.com
                                                  Here's the URL of our sample issue:
                                                  http://www.meditationsociety.com/it71808/index.html
                                                  You will need the Adobe Reader tm 5.0 to read it. If you
                                                  don't have it, the Adobe Reader can be downloaded at:
                                                  http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html
                                                  Thanks for asking and I hope you enjoy and benefit from it if you do
                                                  check it out.
                                                  Peace and blessings,
                                                  Bob
                                                • Jason Fishman
                                                  ... Any activity, this is what everything includes. For example you and I are having this conversation, you disagree with what is said, where does that get you
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 1 9:06 AM
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                                                    > what are you saying? please name the
                                                    > activities what lead you to something
                                                    > [which is nothing of course]

                                                    Any activity, this is what everything includes. For
                                                    example you and I are having this conversation, you
                                                    disagree with what is said, where does that get you in
                                                    your mind? Another example, you have all this great
                                                    knowledge then one day your mind goes blank (such as
                                                    amnesia or altzimers disease does over time) what do
                                                    YOU have left? Does that mean all those things you
                                                    experienced and knowledge you gained never happened?
                                                    How would you know? You can't do them over. Think
                                                    about that, if you will.

                                                    > sounds like j* rhetoric, she
                                                    > brutally distorts and simplifies
                                                    > everything to make her point and
                                                    > gives the impression to the ranch
                                                    > members that they have a "special" *understanding* i
                                                    > hope this mutation
                                                    > in thinking can be reversed
                                                    > re-examined and to broaden ones
                                                    > view is still possible
                                                    >
                                                    > Jason, think on your own please

                                                    Karta, this is on my own, yet it's nothing special,
                                                    derived from thinking on my own and through the
                                                    teaching of everything. This is everything, how much
                                                    broader view can one have?

                                                    > God is in the detail. I thing
                                                    > it is admirable to learn the
                                                    > fundamentalist black & white formula
                                                    > and i enjoy the merry go around
                                                    > word-games spinning from something
                                                    > into nothing and than back again a
                                                    > game the ranch elite loves to play..

                                                    Of course god is in the detail. God IS everything,
                                                    everywhere every moment, you are not seperate from
                                                    god. There is no fundamentalism, yet everything is
                                                    fun-da-mental, light and dark, black and white. I'm
                                                    sorry you have had a bad experience with the ranch,
                                                    but they are not elite, nor have I been on the ranch
                                                    list. ALL are you, not seperate from you. Word spining
                                                    is conversations, tossing concepts to and fro which
                                                    amounts to nothing more then the moment which is based
                                                    on everything and nothing equally feeding on each
                                                    other.

                                                    > Are you talking about YOUR experience?

                                                    All experiences are exsistant. As said before one
                                                    cannot go to no-exsistance and come back to tell of
                                                    ones experience there.

                                                    > >
                                                    > > One can apparently be following what is called a
                                                    > > spiritual path, meaning their spirit, their soul
                                                    > is
                                                    > > the key to unlocking some mystery. They can
                                                    > attempt to
                                                    >
                                                    > WRONG! spiritual exercize is like
                                                    > the sports it is to optimise ones body-mind-spirit
                                                    > organism [spirit
                                                    > like enthusiasm, will-power not your
                                                    > teachers holy ghost on the way to
                                                    > her Savior, NO NEED TO mystify all]

                                                    Certainly, you said the same thing I said, how can
                                                    either of us be correct?

                                                    > > be fulfilled by fantasizing they are some mystical
                                                    > > force that is housed within a physical body to
                                                    > reach
                                                    >
                                                    > WRONG! again there are forces in the
                                                    > body like the force of an unavoidable
                                                    > bowel movement when one is full of
                                                    > shit and there is a force of a vacuum
                                                    > after all the air is emptied form
                                                    > the lungs, which force than will suck
                                                    > fresh air in
                                                    >
                                                    > and than there is the lifeforce energy
                                                    > of a living organism on the tracks
                                                    > of the nervous system and its plexuses
                                                    > which with training can be
                                                    > manipulated and used to refine the
                                                    > state of this living organism to an
                                                    > optimal point when it radiates
                                                    > intelligence etc


                                                    Of course, These are all parts of you which is
                                                    everything. This does not desribe HOW phenomena happen
                                                    in exsistance. This is something to KNOW. If all of
                                                    the earth was wiped out where only the soil and water
                                                    remained, did your knowledge go anywhere? Do you feel
                                                    you take something with you when death comes? How can
                                                    you? Everything you have is stored in memory, is in
                                                    mind, do you take mind with you? Once your gone, you
                                                    will take nothing more then what you came in with,
                                                    which is nothing more then everything.

                                                    > > some enlightened phase.
                                                    >
                                                    > YES! which phase one gains
                                                    > *understanding*: of course i mean
                                                    > the RIGHT understanding aka
                                                    > enlightened consciousness


                                                    Yes, phase one, phase two, phase ten million, all the
                                                    same thing, amounts to everything, which is already
                                                    what you have.

                                                    > This souls search always comes
                                                    > > up short handed, usually with a person looking
                                                    > hard
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > WRONG! it comes up exactly as it does
                                                    > and as it IS

                                                    When you complete these phases, what do you expect to
                                                    gain? Will you be special then? Seperate from all
                                                    others and everything?

                                                    > > enough saying, what a waste, what a nothing.
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > oh! the proverbial nothing which is something of
                                                    > course,
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > i say it is a time WELL spent

                                                    Of course, what else will one do with the moments that
                                                    pass? It's all experiences that leads to knowledge,
                                                    that eventually give one wisdom, if those moments
                                                    arise that one is willing to ponder experience,
                                                    nothing more then what you already have.

                                                    >
                                                    > > Now most of us already have come to terms with a
                                                    > > physical search. The more money one amasses, or
                                                    > things
                                                    > > a person obtains leads exactly the same place
                                                    > with,
                                                    > > what a waste of time, what a big nothing.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The emotion search is somewhat more tricky.
                                                    >
                                                    > clean and simple again: each activity is
                                                    > boiled down to to the dirty word to:
                                                    > *SEARCH* which of course leads to
                                                    > nothing [something<->nothing] my head
                                                    > is spinning iam getting dizzy

                                                    HEHE, getting dizzy is fun! One can decide they are no
                                                    longer searching, but there is always knowledge to
                                                    gain, experiences to experience, all of which are the
                                                    same activity of existance.


                                                    > >Each
                                                    > > living being has a set of programs. To feel
                                                    > something
                                                    > > based on a set of conditions. To be angry when
                                                    > > threatened (for survival) to feel loved when cared
                                                    > for
                                                    > > (also for survival of a group) to feel sad of the
                                                    > > loss/change of someone or something (again for a
                                                    > > survival of the group). This again leads to
                                                    > nothing,
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > by now with your disappointments that everything
                                                    > leads to nothing i'm moved
                                                    > to give you something.. i just don't
                                                    > know what ...

                                                    I have no disappointments, only freedom and clarity.
                                                    You can give me anything you'd like, yet I can only
                                                    retain the knowledge of your understanding for a
                                                    moment. Anything I do is what it is, then it's gone
                                                    before it's over, no different then you, it only
                                                    exists in memory.

                                                    > > following your heart may give one emotional
                                                    > > understanding, yet when ones heart is yanked from
                                                    > > their insides (as the story goes) then that again
                                                    > leads
                                                    > > to the big emptiness of nothing.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > There is a 4 factor in this 3-d world, that is the
                                                    > > tool of the mind which encompasses all of the
                                                    > factors.
                                                    > > To be a witness to the non eternal truth of each
                                                    > > (which are really the make up of a "you"), to
                                                    > > rationalize, experience and conceptualize
                                                    > knowledge
                                                    > > that turns understanding, into wisdom. This is the
                                                    > > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                                                    > > witness stance, this leads to the same truth.
                                                    > Nothing
                                                    > > (no-existance) is everything.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > This is the eternal truth and a very tough pill to
                                                    > > swallow. To think that everything you have ever
                                                    > done
                                                    > > (in memory) is for not, for a big zero, that you
                                                    > don't
                                                    > > really exist (only in the now), well most cannot
                                                    > even
                                                    > > look at that pill let alone consume it into their
                                                    > very
                                                    > > being. There must be more! People tell themselves,
                                                    > we
                                                    > > want to survive, to be eternal, yet we already are
                                                    > > eternal. Everything that is our makup is eternal,
                                                    > yet
                                                    > > it's not ours, it is merely on loan till the
                                                    > contract
                                                    > > runs out, yet like it or not, at that point you
                                                    > face
                                                    > > the big nothing (no-understood-exsistance), which
                                                    > is
                                                    > > everything!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Someone once told me, one should practice to die
                                                    > > everynight before going to sleep, this way one is
                                                    > nice
                                                    > > and ready to live the next day! One should make
                                                    > that a
                                                    > > practice, it does quite well and one will be all
                                                    > ready
                                                    > > for death of form when the contract expires.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I like to swim and it leads to nothing
                                                    > i like to meditate searchlessly, yoga
                                                    > makes me feel good, [FEEL GOO!!!? i
                                                    > can hear the poliCe cursing UPON
                                                    > HEARING THE OTHER DIRTY WORD] altho

                                                    Yup, all experiences exist in the mind, all will be
                                                    gone in the blink of an eye. Whats left? Nothing :)

                                                    Peace and love to you Karta

                                                    __________________________________________________
                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                    Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                                                    http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                                  • Jason Fishman
                                                    ... Certainly Bob and thank you. I work in graphic arts. If you require something for your future publications, drop me a note and I ll see what can be done!
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Mar 1 9:08 AM
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --- medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                                      > Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > snip
                                                      > > Look forward to the new addition, How does one get
                                                      > an
                                                      > > inner traveler, BTW? I'm sure it was mentioned
                                                      > before,
                                                      > > yet it has seemed to have slipped my existing
                                                      > memory!
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Peace and Love
                                                      > >
                                                      > Dear Jason,
                                                      > The Inner Traveler is available by subscription,
                                                      > free with a
                                                      > membership in the Meditation Society of America, or
                                                      > by writing
                                                      > something or sharing artwork for it. Also, I
                                                      > sometimes post the URL
                                                      > for issues here on this group. We also now have
                                                      > available a CD of the
                                                      > first 10 issues. Info can be found on our web site,
                                                      > Meditation Station
                                                      > http://www.meditationsociety.com
                                                      > Here's the URL of our sample issue:
                                                      > http://www.meditationsociety.com/it71808/index.html
                                                      > You will need the Adobe Reader tm 5.0 to read it. If
                                                      > you
                                                      > don't have it, the Adobe Reader can be downloaded
                                                      > at:
                                                      > http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html
                                                      > Thanks for asking and I hope you enjoy and benefit
                                                      > from it if you do
                                                      > check it out.
                                                      > Peace and blessings,
                                                      > Bob

                                                      Certainly Bob and thank you. I work in graphic arts.
                                                      If you require something for your future publications,
                                                      drop me a note and I'll see what can be done!

                                                      Peace and Love

                                                      __________________________________________________
                                                      Do you Yahoo!?
                                                      Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                                                      http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                                    • Jason Fishman
                                                      ... This is what one knows, how could one tell you what you know? In your idea of assumptions... what assumptions are being made? No activities are any more or
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Mar 1 9:16 AM
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        --- "satkartar7 <mi_nok@...>" <mi_nok@...>
                                                        wrote:
                                                        > there are plenty of activities to chose
                                                        > from, and if you say you are a bundle
                                                        > of activities, than the best is to
                                                        > talk about your own: what you know
                                                        >
                                                        > don't ever think that your choice of
                                                        > activities are superior to others
                                                        >
                                                        > and do not assume why others do
                                                        > anything even if it is called 'sadna"
                                                        > just because you were exposed to a
                                                        > very limited view about what spirituality is
                                                        >
                                                        > ----K

                                                        This is what one knows, how could one tell you what
                                                        you know? In your idea of assumptions... what
                                                        assumptions are being made? No activities are any more
                                                        or less of anything any other does, how could it be,
                                                        it all is the same thing underneath?
                                                        No limits to everything, yet only nothing remains.

                                                        Peace and Love


                                                        __________________________________________________
                                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                                        Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                                                        http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                                      • Gene Poole <gene_poole@qwest.net>
                                                        ... If you look at zero you see nothing, but if you look through it you see the world
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Mar 1 10:20 AM
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          "tosime" <tosime@b...> wrote:
                                                          > Hi Jason,
                                                          >
                                                          > This is quite a coincidence. After your post, the very next post I received
                                                          > was...
                                                          >
                                                          > :-) Nothing is something, and Something is really nothing at all. T'ai Hsu
                                                          > the "Great Nothing."
                                                          >
                                                          > It came one minute after yours.
                                                          >
                                                          > Is there some spiritual significance to "nothing"?
                                                          >
                                                          > ...Tony


                                                          If you look at zero you see nothing, but if you look through it you
                                                          see the world


                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                          > From: Jason <munkiman4u@y...> [mailto:munkiman4u@y...]
                                                          > Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 1:38 AM
                                                          > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Top 10 spiritual practices
                                                          > -Tony
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > No need to thank me :) there is nothing, but everything.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Peace and Love
                                                          >
                                                          > > Hi Jason,
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Thanks for EVERYTHING...
                                                          > >
                                                          > > ...Tony
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Yes, a summary...
                                                          > > Everything you have listed equals nothing to do more
                                                          > > or less of.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > You can do meditation, yet you already are doing
                                                          > > meditation. You can write and read yahoo groups, yet
                                                          > > you already are writing and reading yahoo groups. You
                                                          > > can be introspective, yet you already are
                                                          > > introspecting. You can live in the now, yet you
                                                          > > already are living in the now. You can observe nature,
                                                          > > yet everything already is natural. You can teach,
                                                          > > study, learn, Yet you already teach, study, and learn.
                                                          > > Ahh my favorite, observing children, you already are
                                                          > > observing children. My least favorite, attending
                                                          > > church, again, you already attend church.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > This all comes down to a big nothing, a zero. No
                                                          > > matter what you do, in your mind, this doing is
                                                          > > something you are already doing. There is no doing,
                                                          > > yet all is doing. Any words one can express, any doing
                                                          > > one does can be flipped to an opposite, I'm not doing
                                                          > > this or I'm not saying that. Two opposings cancel
                                                          > > there for a zero, nothing. Its a circle of opposing
                                                          > > factors which is the summary of all things, a zero, a
                                                          > > huge never ending, never begining circle. You don't
                                                          > > exist, yet you exists in the mind :)
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Peace and Love
                                                          > >
                                                          > > __________________________________________________
                                                          > > Do you Yahoo!?
                                                          > > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                                                          > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                          > > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                          > meditationsocietyofamerica-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                        • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                                                          Jason Fishman wrote: Another example, you have all this great ... WHY? why would i think about such things ... One can dare to be real ...
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Mar 2 7:40 AM
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                                                            Jason Fishman <munkiman4u@y...> wrote:
                                                            Another example, you have all this great
                                                            > knowledge then one day your mind goes blank (such as
                                                            > amnesia or altzimers disease does over time) what do
                                                            > YOU have left? Does that mean all those things you
                                                            > experienced and knowledge you gained never happened?
                                                            > How would you know? You can't do them over. Think
                                                            > about that, if you will.
                                                            >


                                                            WHY? why would i think about such things


                                                            > This is everything, how much
                                                            > broader view can one have?


                                                            One can dare to be real


                                                            >
                                                            > Of course, These are all parts of you which is
                                                            > everything. This does not desribe HOW phenomena happen
                                                            > in exsistance. This is something to KNOW. If all of
                                                            > the earth was wiped out where only the soil and water
                                                            > remained, did your knowledge go anywhere? Do you feel
                                                            > you take something with you when death comes? How can
                                                            > you? Everything you have is stored in memory, is in
                                                            > mind, do you take mind with you? Once your gone, you
                                                            > will take nothing more then what you came in with,
                                                            > which is nothing more then everything.
                                                            >

                                                            >
                                                            > Yes, phase one, phase two, phase ten million, all the
                                                            > same thing, amounts to everything, which is already
                                                            > what you have.
                                                            >

                                                            You Jason are a philosopher <smiles>


                                                            > One can decide they are no
                                                            > longer searching, but there is always knowledge to
                                                            > gain, experiences to experience, all of which are the
                                                            > same activity of existance.


                                                            oh! this obsession with the *search*


                                                            > This is the
                                                            > heart of the matter, yet even when stepped back in
                                                            > witness stance, this leads to the same truth.
                                                            > Nothing
                                                            > (no-existance) is everything.
                                                            >
                                                            > Yup, all experiences exist in the mind, all will be
                                                            > gone in the blink of an eye. Whats left? Nothing :)


                                                            ok Jason, i will keep in mind your
                                                            advice, that to 'search' is the
                                                            wrong activity and the notion of
                                                            the 'nothing' the later Gene's way
                                                            looking at the zero...

                                                            i am not a philosopher, ALL I
                                                            WANTED TO SAY is that: At times
                                                            when i dare to exist between nowhere
                                                            and somewhere between no ID and
                                                            a transient one to use what makes
                                                            me tick is getting into the *zone*
                                                            what is easy with sadna yoga and
                                                            meditation as i belive, that through
                                                            yoga practice consciousness can be
                                                            raised. And with higher
                                                            consciousness there IS [must be and
                                                            there is NOOOOO way around this]
                                                            a refinement of character an upgrade
                                                            in the ethics of action and yes!
                                                            an upgrade in *understanding* these
                                                            are biproducts of sadna

                                                            Jason, i am glad; that what makes
                                                            you tick is not trolling the
                                                            *spiritual* as in: SPIRITUAL lists
                                                            with knocking meditation and yoga,
                                                            or what ever is listed as the aim
                                                            of the club is: and trying to
                                                            recruit normal people to some funny
                                                            farm boot-camp to be insulted

                                                            because i am fead up with that


                                                            ----love,
                                                            Karta
                                                            >
                                                            > Peace and love to you Karta
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