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Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Daily Practice (who i am)

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  • Melody
    ... wheel, albeit the subtle version of it. ... I don t see anyone on this list who is done yet . Remember this from Jan B? Jan: There isn t a me , as has
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 3 7:53 AM
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      > In simple terms, you're not done yet, you're still on the
      wheel, albeit the subtle version of it.

      >Judi



      I don't see anyone on this list who is "done yet".

      Remember this from Jan B?


      Jan:
      "There isn't a "me", as has been said umpteen times: it's like the shadow from the
      trees of afflictions like fear, pride, vanity, to mention a few. These afflictions don't
      have a separate existence and without them, the illusion of a "me" cannot arise.
      That is where "childhood innocence" comes from: a small child doesn't know them yet
      but the potential to develop them is present.

      As apperception leaves that potential for afflictions unharmed, they remain, like that
      of attachment. When memory allows you could for instance remember Judi having
      confessed both enlightenment, and attachment which showed well in the funny
      thread with Neemyth (the "bad guy" who signed up on a mailing list "just" to announce
      a "crime" there). Which is why "just" apperception as "the end" is a hoot:

      the threshold for fear is likely to decrease first (k.psychosis one of the signs), before
      the potential for all afflictions vanishes.

      Prosit,
      Jan




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
      ... shadow from the ... These afflictions don t ... cannot arise. ... doesn t know them yet ... they remain, like that ... Judi having ... the funny ... list
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 3 8:21 AM
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
        <melodyande@c...> wrote:
        > > In simple terms, you're not done yet, you're still on the
        > wheel, albeit the subtle version of it.
        >
        > >Judi
        >
        >
        >
        > I don't see anyone on this list who is "done yet".
        >
        > Remember this from Jan B?
        >
        >
        > Jan:
        > "There isn't a "me", as has been said umpteen times: it's like the
        shadow from the
        > trees of afflictions like fear, pride, vanity, to mention a few.
        These afflictions don't
        > have a separate existence and without them, the illusion of a "me"
        cannot arise.
        > That is where "childhood innocence" comes from: a small child
        doesn't know them yet
        > but the potential to develop them is present.
        >
        > As apperception leaves that potential for afflictions unharmed,
        they remain, like that
        > of attachment. When memory allows you could for instance remember
        Judi having
        > confessed both enlightenment, and attachment which showed well in
        the funny
        > thread with Neemyth (the "bad guy" who signed up on a mailing
        list "just" to announce
        > a "crime" there). Which is why "just" apperception as "the end" is
        a hoot:
        >
        > the threshold for fear is likely to decrease first (k.psychosis one
        of the signs), before
        > the potential for all afflictions vanishes.
        >
        > Prosit,
        > Jan
        >
        ******** What he's saying is that everything remains. A realizer
        doesn't rise to some exalted state "untouched" or "un-affected",
        quite the opposite. It's more on the order of "crap thru a goose".
        But what the difference is with understanding, is "no seeking". You
        are left "in place". Understanding has nothing whatsoever to do
        with "states" of consciousness, some silent "no mind" state. In
        other words, you don't turn into a vegetable. You become fully human
        and your humanity is realized, all the way into your toes. There is
        no escaping anything.

        I hope that help clears some of this "spiritual" nonsense up.

        Judi
      • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
        ... human ... ****** You see, yogis are in the business of rising to exalted states, which is totally laughable from the realzers perspective. Masturbation.
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 3 8:40 AM
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          > >
          > ******** What he's saying is that everything remains. A realizer
          > doesn't rise to some exalted state "untouched" or "un-affected",
          > quite the opposite. It's more on the order of "crap thru a goose".
          > But what the difference is with understanding, is "no seeking". You
          > are left "in place". Understanding has nothing whatsoever to do
          > with "states" of consciousness, some silent "no mind" state. In
          > other words, you don't turn into a vegetable. You become fully
          human
          > and your humanity is realized, all the way into your toes. There is
          > no escaping anything.
          >
          > I hope that help clears some of this "spiritual" nonsense up.
          >
          > Judi

          ****** You see, yogis are in the business of rising to exalted
          states, which is totally laughable from the realzers perspective.
          Masturbation. :-) It's all in their head. :-)

          Judi
        • Melody
          ... Yes, that s part of what he s saying. The rest of what he s saying is that a process of deconditioning follows before anyone is done yet . ... Well, to
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 3 8:50 AM
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            >******** What he's saying is that >everything remains. A realizer
            >doesn't rise to some exalted state >"untouched" or "un-affected",
            >quite the opposite. It's more on the >order of "crap thru a goose".



            Yes, that's part of what he's saying. The
            rest of what he's saying is that a process
            of deconditioning follows before anyone
            is "done yet".




            >But what the difference is with >understanding, is "no seeking". You
            >are left "in place". Understanding has >nothing whatsoever to do
            >with "states" of consciousness, some >silent "no mind" state. In
            >other words, you don't turn into a >vegetable.


            Well, to be fair, I would not
            characterize either Jan B or
            Sandeep as "vegetables". And
            yet they both represent, to me,
            those who no longer carry around
            ...and thereby don't perpetuate...

            the dance of "afflictions".


            They represent to me,
            people who are no longer on
            the wheel of opposites...

            the wheel of 'attraction'
            and 'repulsion'.

            I have always appreciated very
            much your message of: "look into
            your own suffering", Judi.

            At the same time, I've always
            viewed you as someone carrying around
            a boat load of afflictions.....

            often blasting anyone
            that even remotely triggers them.


            What Jan says really strikes me
            to the core when he says "afflictions
            don't have a separate existence,
            and without them, the illusion of
            a "me" cannot arise."


            My entire body resonates to the truth of what
            he says there. That the dissolving of those afflictions
            are what stops the "flip flops" in perspective.


            And as such, I tend to be drawn more to the
            company of those in whom most (if not all) afflictions
            have already dissolved.

            And those in whom those afflictions have
            dissolved will tell you that meditation is,

            to use Martha Stewart's phrase,

            " a good thing"

            especially after apperception.


            Now I understand that you might be
            quite comfortable toting around all
            that 'baggage'. But please understand
            that some people are inclined to do
            the work of "dropping it"....

            work that is very much a process....

            and is very much 'experience' oriented...

            such as the Work promoted by one of your
            favorite people: Gurdjieff.


            Melody




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
            ... goose . ... ****** No. You mis-understand, being done has nothing to do with perfecting or de-conditioning yourself. If that were the case, there
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 3 9:58 AM
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              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
              <melodyande@c...> wrote:
              >
              > >******** What he's saying is that >everything remains. A realizer
              > >doesn't rise to some exalted state >"untouched" or "un-affected",
              > >quite the opposite. It's more on the >order of "crap thru a
              goose".
              >
              >
              >
              > Yes, that's part of what he's saying. The
              > rest of what he's saying is that a process
              > of deconditioning follows before anyone
              > is "done yet".
              >
              >
              ****** No. You mis-understand, being "done" has nothing to do
              with "perfecting" or "de-conditioning" yourself. If that were the
              case, there would be no realizers I assure you. :-) It's like the
              Wayne puts it, "you indulge in self improvement, and all you have to
              show for it is an improved self." :-) Fine, but that has nothing to
              do with understanding itself.


              >
              >
              > >But what the difference is with >understanding, is "no seeking".
              You
              > >are left "in place". Understanding has >nothing whatsoever to do
              > >with "states" of consciousness, some >silent "no mind" state. In
              > >other words, you don't turn into a >vegetable.
              >
              >
              > Well, to be fair, I would not
              > characterize either Jan B or
              > Sandeep as "vegetables". And
              > yet they both represent, to me,
              > those who no longer carry around
              > ...and thereby don't perpetuate...
              >
              > the dance of "afflictions".
              >
              ****** Your perspective I assure you. :-)
              There is no such thing as perfected person Melody.
              It's all relative. To your ears.


              >
              > They represent to me,
              > people who are no longer on
              > the wheel of opposites...
              >
              > the wheel of 'attraction'
              > and 'repulsion'.
              >
              ****** Well let me assure you, I am very attracted to some things,
              and totally repulsed by others. :-) Look at it like this, Ramana was
              a cool cucumber, accepting of everything and everyone, and
              Nisargadatta would scream and throw things at people and get so
              angry, the veins would pop in his head. :-) People are all different
              Melody. All crap thru a goose to me.


              > I have always appreciated very
              > much your message of: "look into
              > your own suffering", Judi.
              >
              > At the same time, I've always
              > viewed you as someone carrying around
              > a boat load of afflictions.....
              >
              > often blasting anyone
              > that even remotely triggers them.
              >
              ***** Sure, it's my nature, or my "afflictions", whatever you want to
              call it.


              > What Jan says really strikes me
              > to the core when he says "afflictions
              > don't have a separate existence,
              > and without them, the illusion of
              > a "me" cannot arise."
              >
              ****** You're trying to figure it out in your head Melody, and you
              can't. When you come to rest in and as yourself, all these "me's"
              will be very clear to you and it won't be an "issue" for you anymore.



              >
              > My entire body resonates to the truth of what
              > he says there. That the dissolving of those afflictions
              > are what stops the "flip flops" in perspective.
              >
              ****** Your entire body? You are so funny Melody. :-)

              >
              > And as such, I tend to be drawn more to the
              > company of those in whom most (if not all) afflictions
              > have already dissolved.
              >
              ***** Tell me this, what are they gonna do for you?
              Why do you look to anyone else in the first place?
              What is THAT all about? Eh, Melody? You don't want to look there do
              you? Anyplace but there, right?


              > And those in whom those afflictions have
              > dissolved will tell you that meditation is,
              >
              > to use Martha Stewart's phrase,
              >
              > " a good thing"
              >
              > especially after apperception.
              >
              >
              > Now I understand that you might be
              > quite comfortable toting around all
              > that 'baggage'. But please understand
              > that some people are inclined to do
              > the work of "dropping it"....
              >
              > work that is very much a process....
              >
              > and is very much 'experience' oriented...
              >
              > such as the Work promoted by one of your
              > favorite people: Gurdjieff.
              >
              ******* Wrong. Gurdjieff was not in the business of psychological
              counseling. He wasn't in the "feel good" or the "perfecting"
              business. :-)

              Judi
            • dragonpuffs7777
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 3 10:06 AM
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                <****** You see, yogis are in the business of rising to exalted
                states, which is totally laughable from the realzers perspective.
                Masturbation. :-) It's all in their head. :-)>

                There isn't anything known that isn't all in our head. It would be
                foolish to think we'd learn by running away from any part of life we
                feel compelled to explore further, but being fully human includes
                all which includes even many states of consciousness. To close the
                door on one is not to be fully human. To shut out basic animal life
                or human social life going on in favor of another state of
                consciousness is also not being fully human.

                The most faulty reasoning we develop is the concept that being
                human is one thing as opposed to something else. That's what kept us
                from exalted states of consciousness in the first place as well as
                what keeps the yogi type you speak of from getting so many of his
                own lacking basic human life nutrients. We grow whether we like it
                or not. There is no finished product. There is one who learns to
                photosynthesize without trying to twist his little stems in a
                certain pattern in order to catch the rays. There is one who
                relishes the rain and soaks it up without having morbid visions of
                the next draught.


                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes
                <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > ******** What he's saying is that everything remains. A realizer
                > > doesn't rise to some exalted state "untouched" or "un-affected",
                > > quite the opposite. It's more on the order of "crap thru a
                goose".
                > > But what the difference is with understanding, is "no seeking".
                You
                > > are left "in place". Understanding has nothing whatsoever to do
                > > with "states" of consciousness, some silent "no mind" state. In
                > > other words, you don't turn into a vegetable. You become fully
                > human
                > > and your humanity is realized, all the way into your toes. There
                is
                > > no escaping anything.
                > >
                > > I hope that help clears some of this "spiritual" nonsense up.
                > >
                > > Judi
                >
                > ****** You see, yogis are in the business of rising to exalted
                > states, which is totally laughable from the realzers perspective.
                > Masturbation. :-) It's all in their head. :-)
                >
                > Judi
              • G <crystalkundalini@hotmail.com>
                ... realizer ... un-affected , ... goose . ... seeking . You ... do ... In ... There is ... G: you have a warped view and do not understand the states of a
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 3 10:56 AM
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                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                  "judirhodes <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > ******** What he's saying is that everything remains. A
                  realizer
                  > > doesn't rise to some exalted state "untouched" or
                  "un-affected",
                  > > quite the opposite. It's more on the order of "crap thru a
                  goose".
                  > > But what the difference is with understanding, is "no
                  seeking". You
                  > > are left "in place". Understanding has nothing whatsoever to
                  do
                  > > with "states" of consciousness, some silent "no mind" state.
                  In
                  > > other words, you don't turn into a vegetable. You become fully
                  > human
                  > > and your humanity is realized, all the way into your toes.
                  There is
                  > > no escaping anything.
                  > >
                  > > I hope that help clears some of this "spiritual" nonsense up.
                  > >
                  > > Judi
                  >
                  > ****** You see, yogis are in the business of rising to exalted
                  > states, which is totally laughable from the realzers perspective.
                  > Masturbation. :-) It's all in their head. :-)
                  >
                  > Judi


                  G: you have a warped view and do not understand the states of a
                  yogi at all..... what remains is what has always been minus the
                  delusions of egoic self.... you have this deluded thought that they
                  are trying to invent some Bliss land and nonsense state of
                  perpetual phenomena ... that is not the case at all....

                  a little knowledge is a dangerous thing....

                  so pack up your put downs and discriminations and learn about
                  and understand that which you attempt to trash at every step.....
                  you might find that the yogis are having the last laugh .....

                  shanti om ...g...
                • Melody
                  ... Being done as I m using it in this context, refers to no longer being afflicted by what happens...or by what happened in the past. It means living *As
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 3 11:07 AM
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                    >****** No. You mis-understand, being >"done" has nothing to do
                    >with "perfecting" or "de-conditioning" >yourself.


                    "Being done" as I'm using it in this
                    context, refers to no longer being
                    afflicted by what happens...or by what
                    happened in the past. It means living *As Life Itself*, rather than as
                    something apart from it. It means
                    living free of fear....no longer being
                    driven by issues of pride, greed, desire, need....all the 'stuff' that "puffs us up" and makes a 'me'.

                    It is meeting each day with fresh,
                    clear eyes.....uncontaminated by
                    the events of the past, or fears
                    for the future.

                    That's my definition of Freedom.

                    I understand, however, that our
                    definitions may differ. :-)



                    > Well, to be fair, I would not
                    > characterize either Jan B or
                    > Sandeep as "vegetables". And
                    > yet they both represent, to me,
                    > those who no longer carry around
                    > ...and thereby don't perpetuate...
                    >
                    > the dance of "afflictions".
                    >

                    >****** Your perspective I assure you. :-)
                    >There is no such thing as perfected >person Melody.


                    It's not about being 'perfect', Judi. It's about
                    being so free that all of life can be met with
                    open arms. I understand this may sound
                    hokey to you, though.


                    I like the way Nisargadatta put it:


                    "Once you realize that there is nothing in the world which you can call your
                    own, you look at it from the outside as you look at a play on the stage, or
                    a picture on the screen, admiring and enjoying, but really unmoved."

                    "As long as you imagine yourself to be something tangible and solid, a thing
                    among things, actually existing in time and space, short lived and
                    vulnerable, naturally you will be anxious to survive and increase."


                    "Afflictions" as Jan uses that word is that which
                    triggers you into believing....if only for a few minutes....
                    that you are something "tangible and solid, a thing
                    among things.....short lived and vulnerable."

                    A really free person, in my book,

                    is one who is no longer triggered
                    by events into believing that they
                    are "short lived and vulnerable."


                    This reminds me of the time some years
                    back when you and I were having a 'go'
                    at each other on the NDS. :-) Old Hag
                    wrote me once and confessed how some
                    of what had been said had really tapped
                    one of her "afflictions" (she said it a
                    little differently). She spoke about how,
                    for just a few moments, she was furious.
                    And then....having not said a word....that
                    furiousity was gone. She had seen it
                    for what it was, and having done so, it
                    just vanished. Boy....that was such a great
                    teaching for me....one that I really appreciated.
                    Somehow, I know she would understand
                    very well what I'm saying here. :-)




                    <snip>


                    > And as such, I tend to be drawn more to the
                    > company of those in whom most (if not all) afflictions
                    > have already dissolved.
                    >
                    >***** Tell me this, what are they gonna do >for you?
                    >Why do you look to anyone else in the >first place?
                    >What is THAT all about? Eh, Melody?



                    I'm inclined to answer this as if
                    it's a genuine question (one you don't
                    already have the answer to.)

                    And I'll answer it by example:

                    I'm not much of a runner....but sometimes
                    when I run I can really get into the
                    'zone' of running. It's a place of
                    optimal performance....where all thoughts
                    *about* my running kind of dissolve.
                    There's no longer a 'me' and a pavement...
                    just 'running'.

                    Other times I'm running and I struggle
                    with it. I struggle with tiredness,
                    or the cold, or my aching body, or
                    fear of not finishing...etc., etc.,

                    So what does someone like Sandeep do
                    for me? He's like a bright Light
                    showing me Home Base while I'm running.
                    Not in what he says, but just by his Being.

                    And when I look at It....really melt
                    into It.....the struggling ceases...

                    one way or another.



                    > Now I understand that you might be
                    > quite comfortable toting around all
                    > that 'baggage'. But please understand
                    > that some people are inclined to do
                    > the work of "dropping it"....
                    >
                    > work that is very much a process....
                    >
                    > and is very much 'experience' oriented...
                    >
                    > such as the Work promoted by one of your
                    > favorite people: Gurdjieff.
                    >
                    ******* Wrong. Gurdjieff was not in the business of psychological
                    counseling. He wasn't in the "feel good" or the "perfecting"
                    business. :-)




                    No. His "Work" is not the "feel good" business.
                    And neither is what I'm referrring to.

                    Rather it's much like what you say about
                    "seeing what you're up to". Becoming
                    so present focused ....conscious of your
                    moment to moment responses and thoughts
                    ......that you can tell when
                    you're responding to "ghosts of
                    the past", otherwise known as "afflictions".

                    In other words, "shadow boxing".

                    And when you see these 'ghosts'...really see them
                    for what they are (rather than avoiding, ignoring
                    or denying them) they dissolve.

                    Melody




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • goode@dpw.com
                    This is another one that been around. Pardon if you ve seen it before. When the talk gets to yogis and states, this news report is good for some humor.
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 3 11:11 AM
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                      This is another one that been around. Pardon if you've seen it before.

                      When the talk gets to yogis and states, this "news report" is good for some humor. It's from THE ONION, though probably pre-existed that version. The link I got it from is: (http://www.mut8.com/tyson/old_journey/mind/serenest.html)

                      ===================================
                      MONK GLOATS OVER YOGA CHAMPIONSHIP
                      "I am the serenest!" he says.

                      LHASA, TIBET—Employing the brash style that first brought him to prominence, Sri Dhananjai Bikram won the fifth annual International Yogi Competition yesterday with a world-record point total of 873.6.

                      "I am the serenest!" Bikram shouted to the estimated crowd of 20,000 yoga fans, vigorously pumping his fists. "No one is serener than Sri Dhananjai Bikram — I am the greatest monk of all time!"

                      Bikram averaged 1.89 breaths a minute during the two-hour competition, nearly .3 fewer than his nearest competitor, second-place finisher and two-time champion Sri Salil "The Hammer" Gupta.

                      The heavily favored Gupta was upset after the loss. "I should be able to beat that guy with one lung tied," Gupta said. "I'm beside myself right now, and I don't mean trans-bodily."

                      Bikram got off to a fast start at the Lhasa meet, which like most major competitions, is a six-event affair. In the first event, he attained total consciousness (TC) in just 2 minutes, 34 seconds, and set the tone for the rest of the meet by repeatedly shouting, "I'm blissful! You blissful?! I'm blissful!" to the other yogis.

                      Bikram, 33, burst onto the international yoga scene with a gold-mandala performance at the 1994 Bhutan Invitational. At that competition he premiered his aggressive style, at one point in the flexibility event sticking his middle toes out at the other yogis. While no prohibition exists against such behavior, according to Yoga League Commissioner Swami Prabhupada, such behavior is generally considered "unBuddhalike."

                      "I don't care what the critics say," Bikram said. "Sri Bikram is just gonna go out there and do Sri Bikram's own yoga thing."

                      Before the Bhutan meet, Bikram had never placed better than fourth. Many said he had forsaken rigorous training for the celebrity status accorded by his Bhutan win, endorsing Nike's new line of prayer mats and supposedly dating the Hindu goddess Shakti. But his performance this week will regain for him the number one computer ranking and earn him new respect, as well as for his coach Mahananda Vasti, the controversial guru some have called Bikram's "guru."

                      "My special training diet for Bikram of one super-charged, carbo-loaded grain of rice per day was essential to his win," Vasti said.

                      The defeated Gupta denied that Bikram's taunting was a factor in his inability to attain TC. "I just wasn't myself today," Gupta commented. "I wasn't any self today. I was an egoless particle of the universal no-soul."

                      In the second event, flexibility, Bikram maintained the lead by supporting himself on his index fingers for the entire 15 minutes while touching the back of his skull to his lower spine. The feat was matched by Gupta, who first used the position at the 1990 Tokyo Zen-Off.

                      "That's my meditative position of spiritual ecstasy, not his," remarked Gupta. "He stole my thunder."

                      Bikram denied the charge, saying, "Gupta's been talking like that ever since he was a 3rd century Egyptian slave-owner."

                      Nevertheless, a strong showing by Gupta in the third event, the shotput, placed him within a lotus petal of the lead at the competition's halfwaypoint.

                      But event number four, the contemplation of unanswerable riddles known as koans, proved the key to victory for Bikram.

                      The koan had long been thought the weak point of his spiritual arsenal, but his response to today's riddle — "Show me the face you had before you were born" — was reportedly "extremely illuminative," according to Commissioner Prabhupada.

                      While koan answers are kept secret from the public for fear of exposing the uninitiated multitudes to the terror of universal truth, insiders claim his answer had Prabhupada and the two other judges "highly enlightened."

                      With the event victory, Bikram built himself a nearly insurmountable lead, one he sustained through the yak-milk churn and breathing events to come away with the upset victory.
                    • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                      ... call your ... stage, or ... ****** haha...as the veins were popping out of his head screaming mad as hell at somebody! :-) Melody, if you think
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 3 11:46 AM
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                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody" <> clear
                        >
                        >
                        > I like the way Nisargadatta put it:
                        >
                        >
                        > "Once you realize that there is nothing in the world which you can
                        call your
                        > own, you look at it from the outside as you look at a play on the
                        stage, or
                        > a picture on the screen, admiring and enjoying, but really unmoved."
                        >
                        ****** haha...as the veins were popping out of his head screaming mad
                        as hell at somebody! :-) Melody, if you think realization means
                        being desireless and passionless and not in any way suffering, think
                        again!

                        Judi
                      • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                        ... before. ... for some humor. It s from THE ONION, though probably pre-existed that version. The link I got it from is:
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 3 11:51 AM
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                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, <goode@d...> wrote:
                          > This is another one that been around. Pardon if you've seen it
                          before.
                          >
                          > When the talk gets to yogis and states, this "news report" is good
                          for some humor. It's from THE ONION, though probably pre-existed
                          that version. The link I got it from is:
                          (http://www.mut8.com/tyson/old_journey/mind/serenest.html)
                          >

                          ****** Thanks for the laugh, these guys are so ridiculous. Too
                          funny. :-)

                          Judi
                        • Melody
                          ... being desireless and passionless and not in any way suffering, think again! ... Is that what you re afraid of? You see, Judi, I don t think anything of the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 3 12:04 PM
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                            > Melody, if you think realization means
                            being desireless and passionless and not in any way suffering, think
                            again!

                            >Judi



                            Is that what you're afraid of?

                            You see, Judi, I don't think
                            anything of the kind.

                            If you were to have asked me,

                            I'd have said that the more one's 'afflictions'
                            have been dissolved....the more apt one is
                            to completely.....deliciously....enjoy
                            all of life.....no longer needing to avoid
                            "that kind of person", situation, or such.

                            Free to appreciate anything and everything.

                            Melody



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                            ... mad ... think ... ****** And more to the point, if you want to get out of your suffering, Ganga s your person, because with me I ll just lead you right
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 3 12:08 PM
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                              > >
                              > ****** haha...as the veins were popping out of his head screaming
                              mad
                              > as hell at somebody! :-) Melody, if you think realization means
                              > being desireless and passionless and not in any way suffering,
                              think
                              > again!
                              >
                              > Judi

                              ****** And more to the point, if you want to get out of your
                              suffering, Ganga's your person, because with me I'll just lead you
                              right into it, exactly where you DON'T want to go! :-)

                              Judi
                            • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                              ... think ... ****** Does free to be yourself have any relevance here? Sheesh! Judi
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 3 12:10 PM
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                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
                                <melodyande@c...> wrote:
                                > > Melody, if you think realization means
                                > being desireless and passionless and not in any way suffering,
                                think
                                > again!
                                >
                                > >Judi
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Is that what you're afraid of?
                                >
                                > You see, Judi, I don't think
                                > anything of the kind.
                                >
                                > If you were to have asked me,
                                >
                                > I'd have said that the more one's 'afflictions'
                                > have been dissolved....the more apt one is
                                > to completely.....deliciously....enjoy
                                > all of life.....no longer needing to avoid
                                > "that kind of person", situation, or such.
                                >
                                > Free to appreciate anything and everything.
                                >
                                > Melody
                                >
                                ****** Does "free to be yourself" have any relevance here?

                                Sheesh!

                                Judi
                              • Melody
                                ... If one never before felt truly free to be myself , then it could be very relevant. However, total freedom doesn t come until all self-obsessions have
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 3 12:22 PM
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                                  >****** Does "free to be yourself" have any relevance here?



                                  If one never before felt truly "free to be myself",

                                  then it could be very relevant.

                                  However, total freedom doesn't
                                  come until all self-obsessions have been dropped

                                  including the the obsession to be "free to
                                  be myself". I suspect that's the trickiest
                                  obsession of them all.

                                  Melody



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                                  ... ****** Suit yourself! :-)
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 3 12:34 PM
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                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
                                    <melodyande@c...> wrote:
                                    > >****** Does "free to be yourself" have any relevance here?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > If one never before felt truly "free to be myself",
                                    >
                                    > then it could be very relevant.
                                    >
                                    > However, total freedom doesn't
                                    > come until all self-obsessions have been dropped
                                    >
                                    > including the the obsession to be "free to
                                    > be myself". I suspect that's the trickiest
                                    > obsession of them all.
                                    >

                                    ****** Suit yourself! :-)
                                  • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                                    ... ******* You see your problem Melody is not your lack of freedom to be yourself, you ARE being yourself, but your problem is you just don t LIKE yourself.
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 3 2:01 PM
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                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes
                                      <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
                                      > <melodyande@c...> wrote:
                                      > > >****** Does "free to be yourself" have any relevance here?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > If one never before felt truly "free to be myself",
                                      > >
                                      > > then it could be very relevant.
                                      > >
                                      > > However, total freedom doesn't
                                      > > come until all self-obsessions have been dropped
                                      > >
                                      > > including the the obsession to be "free to
                                      > > be myself". I suspect that's the trickiest
                                      > > obsession of them all.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > ****** Suit yourself! :-)

                                      ******* You see your problem Melody is not your lack of freedom to be
                                      yourself, you ARE being yourself, but your problem is you just don't
                                      LIKE yourself. And I can't say as I blame you, cause I don't like
                                      you either. :-)

                                      Judi
                                    • dragonpuffs7777
                                      Now, that seems like a relevant observation. One thing that all of the
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 3 2:35 PM
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                                        <If one never before felt truly "free to be myself",

                                        then it could be very relevant.>

                                        Now, that seems like a relevant observation. One thing that all of
                                        the realizers in here have in common is that how they interpret the
                                        benefit of their realization is according to what they most needed
                                        and whatever was their biggest obsession before they had their
                                        quantum leap.

                                        There seems to be some understanding that their existence was
                                        broken down into its most basic component, but after that, little or
                                        no understanding that the colorless, waveless sea must paint and
                                        flow with waves even to communicate with another human being. Back
                                        to suffering in an attempt to do two things at once that are
                                        impossible to do. How can the sea move and be still at the same
                                        time? So, the waves wiggle in their kalidescopic patterns, knowing
                                        they are the same sea as when they're still, but still having an
                                        intense desire to 'fix' a pattern of waves that's in some way the
                                        most magnificent pattern there ever will be.



                                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
                                        <melodyande@c...> wrote:
                                        > >****** Does "free to be yourself" have any relevance here?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > If one never before felt truly "free to be myself",
                                        >
                                        > then it could be very relevant.
                                        >
                                        > However, total freedom doesn't
                                        > come until all self-obsessions have been dropped
                                        >
                                        > including the the obsession to be "free to
                                        > be myself". I suspect that's the trickiest
                                        > obsession of them all.
                                        >
                                        > Melody
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • lakshmi38586 <freyjartist@aol.com>
                                        ... And honestly, the most enlightened people seem to me to be those that dont have any clue about anything spiritual--in the sense of active seeking. Like
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 3 2:57 PM
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                                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
                                          <melodyande@c...> wrote:
                                          > >****** Does "free to be yourself" have any relevance here?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > If one never before felt truly "free to be myself",
                                          >
                                          > then it could be very relevant.
                                          >
                                          > However, total freedom doesn't
                                          > come until all self-obsessions have been dropped
                                          >
                                          > including the the obsession to be "free to
                                          > be myself". I suspect that's the trickiest
                                          > obsession of them all.
                                          >
                                          > Melody
                                          >
                                          >

                                          And honestly, the most enlightened people
                                          seem to me to be those that dont have any
                                          clue about anything spiritual--in the sense
                                          of active seeking.

                                          Like those people and children who walk around in
                                          full acceptance of exactly who they are,
                                          and who others are. You know the type i mean.
                                          Not doormats. Just in full acceptance...
                                          they seem to be fully involved with life.
                                          Dont feel sorry for themselves, look happy to be alive,
                                          no matter what their circumstances.
                                          They do what they have to do, they trust themselves.
                                          But will also admit if they have made a mistake.

                                          This black janitor i used to see in the hall when i worked with my
                                          husband, comes to mind, right now,
                                          for some reason.


                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                                          ... ******* Yes, they re spiritually healthy, not spiritual hypochondriacs. Here you ll probably like this written by my friend James: Though I cannot put my
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 3 3:05 PM
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                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "lakshmi38586
                                            <freyjartist@a...>" <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                                            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
                                            > <melodyande@c...> wrote:
                                            > > >****** Does "free to be yourself" have any relevance here?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > If one never before felt truly "free to be myself",
                                            > >
                                            > > then it could be very relevant.
                                            > >
                                            > > However, total freedom doesn't
                                            > > come until all self-obsessions have been dropped
                                            > >
                                            > > including the the obsession to be "free to
                                            > > be myself". I suspect that's the trickiest
                                            > > obsession of them all.
                                            > >
                                            > > Melody
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > And honestly, the most enlightened people
                                            > seem to me to be those that dont have any
                                            > clue about anything spiritual--in the sense
                                            > of active seeking.
                                            >
                                            > Like those people and children who walk around in
                                            > full acceptance of exactly who they are,
                                            > and who others are. You know the type i mean.
                                            > Not doormats. Just in full acceptance...
                                            > they seem to be fully involved with life.
                                            > Dont feel sorry for themselves, look happy to be alive,
                                            > no matter what their circumstances.
                                            > They do what they have to do, they trust themselves.
                                            > But will also admit if they have made a mistake.
                                            >
                                            ******* Yes, they're spiritually healthy, not spiritual
                                            hypochondriacs. Here you'll probably like this written by my friend
                                            James:

                                            Though I cannot put my finger on it, nor can I quote it verbatim, I
                                            am reminded of the Whitman poem where he said (paraphrased):

                                            I could live with the animals.
                                            They are so self contained.
                                            They do not lie awake at night
                                            Weeping and worrying.
                                            There is not a one of them
                                            That bows to one of their own kind
                                            Who lived years ago.

                                            I know exactly where I stand with my cats. They are not nice to my
                                            face and critical of me to my back. This is not to say that they
                                            don't get pissed at me at times... But when they do, they let me know
                                            in no uncertain terms that they are pissed. And all I have to do is
                                            rectify whatever it was/is that is pissing them off, and everything
                                            is once again alright with no grudge or secret disdain.

                                            And they know to come to me when they are in some kind of trouble or
                                            have some kind of problem. Yet they also have a sense of those things
                                            over which I have no power. I have had a number of them just
                                            disappear, never to be seen again. But this is rare and only happens
                                            when the circumstances are beyond intervention.

                                            There is an axiom that the only REAL success in life is spending
                                            one's time the way one WANTS to spend one's time. And for those who
                                            have this compulsion to worry about one's relationship to goodness,
                                            it is an evidence of their doubt.

                                            A person whose attitude is one of care-free abandon, who doesn't
                                            worry about what they should do, but rather just does what seems to
                                            be efficacious at the time for THAT occasion, and then whether it
                                            turns out well or otherwise has no recriminations or regrets... That
                                            person is healthy in a spiritual way.

                                            Those who are constantly mindful of their and others relationships to
                                            whatever it is that they are in constant supplication or apprehension
                                            are the spiritual equivalent of a hypochondriac. The problem is that
                                            in spiritual hypochondria, there is no one who can help, for those
                                            who are spiritual hypochondriacs believe themselves to be in favor
                                            and anyone who would tell them to just drop all the bullshit
                                            concerns, MUST be some kind of infidel.

                                            Those who most want you to listen to and accept their religion are
                                            those who least want to listen to and accept another's religion. And
                                            those who most want others to be tolerant of them are the least
                                            tolerant of others.

                                            This never occurs among my cats.

                                            There isn't a doubt in the world that what they do isn't the right
                                            thing to do at the moment. I try to learn that lesson from them and
                                            act out of immediate comprehension of the right thing at the right
                                            time.

                                            It isn't, of course, always the right thing that gets done, but at
                                            least it is not done with any deviousness, nor with the idea of
                                            taking advantage.

                                            And I think that THAT is what makes plotting a good tryst so much
                                            fun. The intrigue of having things affect multiple levels and having
                                            the plan interlock so that what happens is the result of having
                                            understood, planned, and then have the whole thing fit together and
                                            come out just like it was hoped, brings satisfaction.

                                            Alas, life and the day to day, ever changing, hour to hour, custom
                                            made, minute to minute existence is so manifold and complex, that it
                                            isn't possible to completely prepare for every eventuality.

                                            It is the difference between training and rehearsing. The difference
                                            between Boxing and Dancing.

                                            The Dancers rehearse and then the performance is done with every move
                                            pre known.

                                            But Boxers train, and are then thus prepared to take improvisational
                                            action depending on the circumstances, even when the opponents are
                                            trying to confound and out-do the other.

                                            My father used to say that after you've seen the three
                                            MuhammedAli/JoeFrazier fights, that there just wasn't much boxing
                                            left that wasn't inferior and less than what was possible.

                                            Life is more a boxing match than a ballet performance.

                                            How well we handle it (life) is an indication of how good a man (or
                                            woman) we are.

                                            And Perfex handled even her demise with style and grace. She will be
                                            buried in the same manner.
                                            She deserves nothing less.
                                          • dan330033 <dan330033@yahoo.com>
                                            ... Yes, it s well-said. I enjoyed it. Thanks for posting it. -- Dan
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 3 3:20 PM
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                                              > I don't see anyone on this list who is "done yet".
                                              >
                                              > Remember this from Jan B?

                                              Yes, it's well-said.

                                              I enjoyed it.

                                              Thanks for posting it.

                                              -- Dan
                                            • Melody
                                              ... yourself, you ARE being yourself, but your problem is you just don t LIKE yourself. I can see how it could be interpretated that way. But that s now how I
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 3 4:11 PM
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                                                >******* You see your problem Melody is not your lack of freedom to be
                                                yourself, you ARE being yourself, but your problem is you just don't
                                                LIKE yourself.


                                                I can see how it could be interpretated
                                                that way.

                                                But that's now how I feel at all.

                                                I am simply aware of how the carrying
                                                of old grudges, animosities, fears,
                                                and such can....and have!....limited
                                                my ability to really see and appreciate
                                                life...and various people....just the way they are....here...now.

                                                And the more aware I become, over time,
                                                of how old 'afflictions' (thoughts and
                                                attitudes we carry around like luggage)
                                                limit my appreciation of life, the more
                                                I also see that it is those very
                                                afflictions which also define "me".

                                                I'm seeing that the more the afflictions
                                                melt away, the more the 'me' does, too.
                                                It's the dangest thing. :-)


                                                I experience it as a kind of cleaning
                                                of the lens of perception....the more
                                                the 'me' stuff is gotten out of the way
                                                of things, the brighter the world becomes...

                                                even in its misery.


                                                > And I can't say as I blame you, cause I >don't like
                                                >you either. :-)



                                                Well, I like you anyway. I like you lots. :-)

                                                Melody




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Melody
                                                ... Well, thank you. I thought so, too. :-) I could say that because
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Feb 3 4:24 PM
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                                                  <<If one never before felt truly "free to be myself",

                                                  then it could be very relevant.>>

                                                  >Now, that seems like a relevant observation.



                                                  Well, thank you. I thought so, too. :-)

                                                  I could say that because the need to
                                                  "feel free to be myself" was a big
                                                  affliction of mine.

                                                  (Ask people who were also on the NDS list
                                                  3 or 4 years ago! LOL! Nobody, nohow, was going to TELL ME what I needed, or how I should be feeling, or what I ought to be doing! :-)))


                                                  >One thing that all of
                                                  the realizers in here have in common is that how they interpret the
                                                  benefit of their realization is according to what they most needed
                                                  and whatever was their biggest obsession before they had their
                                                  >quantum leap.


                                                  Well, the more vocal ones...perhaps.
                                                  Good observation. In a way, though,
                                                  can't it also be seen as another
                                                  way to self-define?

                                                  For example, when I began my own
                                                  roar of "free to be myself" routine,

                                                  that freedom to roar....while a
                                                  very appropriate roaring....was
                                                  still just another way of defining
                                                  'me'. There was still the focus
                                                  on 'me'....maintaining that 'me'
                                                  in all her glory. :-)

                                                  But admittedly, it felt f**king
                                                  great.....after years of letting
                                                  'me' be defined by everyone
                                                  else. It was only fair that it
                                                  got to roar a bit before it started
                                                  melting away. :-)


                                                  Melody




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • G <crystalkundalini@hotmail.com>
                                                  ... screaming ... means ... suffering, ... you right into it, exactly where you DON T want to go! :-) ... G: wrong again judi what i give people is a way to
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Feb 3 4:31 PM
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                                                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                                    "judirhodes <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > ****** haha...as the veins were popping out of his head
                                                    screaming
                                                    > mad
                                                    > > as hell at somebody! :-) Melody, if you think realization
                                                    means
                                                    > > being desireless and passionless and not in any way
                                                    suffering,
                                                    > think
                                                    > > again!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Judi
                                                    >
                                                    > ****** And more to the point, if you want to get out of your
                                                    > suffering, Ganga's your person, because with me I'll just lead
                                                    you right into it, exactly where you DON'T want to go! :-)
                                                    >
                                                    > Judi


                                                    G: wrong again judi what i give people is a way to confront their
                                                    suffering and mental dramas to be able to go beyond it .... to
                                                    shatter it.... to see the illusion of it..... then to confront the "I"
                                                    directly and to shatter that illusion as well....

                                                    so once again you are reading into what you think is given
                                                    which is pie in the sky platitudes , you don't know the reality of
                                                    what is given or not given.... you have made broad assumptions
                                                    of which none of them have been correct.....


                                                    shanti om ....g...
                                                  • Melody
                                                    ... clue about anything spiritual--in the sense of active seeking. ... full acceptance of exactly who they are, and who others are. You know the type i mean.
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Feb 3 4:32 PM
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                                                      >And honestly, the most enlightened people seem to me to be those that dont have any
                                                      clue about anything spiritual--in the sense
                                                      of active seeking.

                                                      >Like those people and children who walk around in
                                                      full acceptance of exactly who they are,
                                                      and who others are. You know the type i mean.




                                                      I was watching the discovery channel the
                                                      other day and this one guy from National
                                                      Geographic was talking about these people
                                                      he met in some of the remote villages in
                                                      China and India. They had almost no
                                                      possessions, lived hand to mouth day by
                                                      day, and yet they were the most 'alive'...
                                                      joyful people he had ever encountered.
                                                      He spoke about how their eyes shown.
                                                      No worries about tomorrow, no whining
                                                      about what happened yesterday......just
                                                      living life fully....completely....as it unfolds.

                                                      He just couldn't get over how someone
                                                      so poor.....so destitute.....could be so happy.

                                                      Yes. I hear your meaning.

                                                      Thanks, Freyja. :-)



                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Melody
                                                      ... You re quite welcome, Dan. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Feb 3 4:33 PM
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                                                        >> I don't see anyone on this list who is "done yet".
                                                        >
                                                        >> Remember this from Jan B?


                                                        >Yes, it's well-said.

                                                        >I enjoyed it.

                                                        >Thanks for posting it.



                                                        You're quite welcome, Dan.




                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                                                        ... ******** And prey tell, what WAY is that? LOL Don t make me laugh. You re not giving shit, but lip service. Seriously, I ve had enough of your
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Feb 3 5:31 PM
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                                                          >>
                                                          >
                                                          > G: wrong again judi what i give people is a way to confront their
                                                          > suffering

                                                          ******** And prey tell, what "WAY" is that? LOL

                                                          Don't make me laugh. You're not giving shit, but lip service.

                                                          Seriously, I've had enough of your ridiculous shit. Talk the talk or
                                                          walk the walk. And don't quit your day job. :-)

                                                          Judi
                                                        • dragonpuffs7777
                                                          ... the realizers in here have in common is that how they interpret the benefit of their realization is according to what they most needed and whatever was
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Feb 3 7:27 PM
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                                                            >One thing that all of
                                                            the realizers in here have in common is that how they interpret the
                                                            benefit of their realization is according to what they most needed
                                                            and whatever was their biggest obsession before they had their
                                                            >quantum leap.


                                                            Melody:Well, the more vocal ones...perhaps.
                                                            Good observation. In a way, though,
                                                            can't it also be seen as another
                                                            way to self-define?>

                                                            Yes, that was exactly my point. It doesn't end. It isn't over. The
                                                            human mind is what it is, and after any ah ha moment, it will try to
                                                            reason what it's all about. The first thing that comes to mind is
                                                            that it's better than it was so it must have overcome 'fill in the
                                                            blank'. Notice the different spiritual camps of 'life is suffering'
                                                            vs. 'life is love and light'. Leftist and rightest enlightened ones?

                                                            Remember the movie, "Peasantville"? Everything was black and white
                                                            in the town because it was really a 50's tv show but the people in
                                                            it didn't know that. Then, some colored kid shows up from the real
                                                            world and one by one, the people of Pleasantville learn about
                                                            choices and feelings and become colored, too.

                                                            We are like the black and white people until ond day, a spirit
                                                            comes in and lifts us up and we enter a world that makes the old one
                                                            look like it was black and white and we feel like we're reborn. But,
                                                            instead of enjoying it, we usually have to try and reason about what
                                                            has happened and why. Enquiring minds have to know. And, when they
                                                            can't know, they make things up to satisfy themselves. When they run
                                                            into someone else and compare notes and the notes don't jive, the
                                                            reaction can be to feel the need to resolve or to win. It's the same
                                                            reaction that their reason always had because it is it's job to make
                                                            decisions and to sort and categorize and all the rest.

                                                            To live with the knowledge that there's no truth makes it essential
                                                            that the home base of a being shifts from their ideas about being
                                                            (reason) to something more universal and familiar to the heart.


                                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Melody"
                                                            <melodyande@c...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > <<If one never before felt truly "free to be myself",
                                                            >
                                                            > then it could be very relevant.>>
                                                            >
                                                            > >Now, that seems like a relevant observation.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Well, thank you. I thought so, too. :-)
                                                            >
                                                            > I could say that because the need to
                                                            > "feel free to be myself" was a big
                                                            > affliction of mine.
                                                            >
                                                            > (Ask people who were also on the NDS list
                                                            > 3 or 4 years ago! LOL! Nobody, nohow, was going to TELL ME what
                                                            I needed, or how I should be feeling, or what I ought to be
                                                            doing! :-)))
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > >One thing that all of
                                                            > the realizers in here have in common is that how they interpret
                                                            the
                                                            > benefit of their realization is according to what they most
                                                            needed
                                                            > and whatever was their biggest obsession before they had their
                                                            > >quantum leap.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Well, the more vocal ones...perhaps.
                                                            > Good observation. In a way, though,
                                                            > can't it also be seen as another
                                                            > way to self-define?
                                                            >
                                                            > For example, when I began my own
                                                            > roar of "free to be myself" routine,
                                                            >
                                                            > that freedom to roar....while a
                                                            > very appropriate roaring....was
                                                            > still just another way of defining
                                                            > 'me'. There was still the focus
                                                            > on 'me'....maintaining that 'me'
                                                            > in all her glory. :-)
                                                            >
                                                            > But admittedly, it felt f**king
                                                            > great.....after years of letting
                                                            > 'me' be defined by everyone
                                                            > else. It was only fair that it
                                                            > got to roar a bit before it started
                                                            > melting away. :-)
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Melody
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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