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Re: Daily Practice

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  • freyjartist@aol.com
    ******** And let me also say this, with understanding there is no method . It s an oxymoron. Methods are what yogis in their ignornace use. Methods are
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
      ******** And let me also say this, with understanding there is
      no "method". It's an oxymoron. "Methods" are what yogis in their
      ignornace use. Methods are nothing more than self masturbation to get
      out of their suffering.

      Judi>>

      OK, Judi, but the methods themselves are not so bad
      if they are just looked at as just another activity,
      like playing with the cat, or going to the movies,
      a pleasant pastime....do you agree?

      freyja





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • freyjartist@aol.com
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
        <<G: hopefully it is not a *definition* but a living experience that
        leaves within its wake Reality....
        i also understand that the bliss gives way to that terror that
        arises when the ego is surrendered to the death which pulls it
        assunder and dissipates into simply IS .... not a personal is, but
        IS .... everything has been stripped bare , nothing left , the
        eternal Primal Source of Infinite Potential is known as Absolute...
        there is nothing left to fear.... nothing left to grasp .... nothing left
        to do or be done.... nothing more to search for....
        nowhere to go.... all of life from then on becomes the empty
        show of Source that knows nothing of the equation of the
        transient .... for the transient is the show of mind and form
        which eventually comes to balance within the wisdom of the
        Source .... Knowing it to be one and yet beyond a structure of
        One - 0 ......

        <<this is such a difficult rendering to attempt to share..... no words
        are adequate - all words separate us from IS.... of course still
        we try for it is the great liberator from all illusion, that was the
        disturbance called self ....


        > > shanti om ..g...>>

        yes ganga....perhaps it can be spoken of, adequately or inadequately,
        depending on many factors.....but, bottom line,
        it has to be lived.

        yes, there is a terror for the ego identity,
        a great terror-- until then finally one wonders what they
        were so afraid of all along.....

        reminds me of trying to get into
        a lake of cool water, first one toe, then another, inching
        my way in, but fearful of the pain and shock of the cold,
        not wanting to give it up and just get in--
        and then, you're in!

        and it feels soooo much better than you
        had imagined, and you wonder, what was i so afraid of?

        so, then What Is is lived in every single occurence, every gesture,
        every event, every thing..... from the profane and the mundane
        to the profound and sublime....in the whorehouse and on
        the altar.

        peace

        freyja





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G <crystalkundalini@hotmail.com>
        ... but ... Absolute... ... words ... inadequately, ... gesture, ... G: there is nothing in the world that needs to be affirmed or negated.... simply life
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
          freyjartist@a... wrote:
          > <<G: hopefully it is not a *definition* but a living experience that
          > leaves within its wake Reality....
          > i also understand that the bliss gives way to that terror that
          > arises when the ego is surrendered to the death which pulls it
          > assunder and dissipates into simply IS .... not a personal is,
          but
          > IS .... everything has been stripped bare , nothing left , the
          > eternal Primal Source of Infinite Potential is known as
          Absolute...
          > there is nothing left to fear.... nothing left to grasp .... nothing left
          > to do or be done.... nothing more to search for....
          > nowhere to go.... all of life from then on becomes the empty
          > show of Source that knows nothing of the equation of the
          > transient .... for the transient is the show of mind and form
          > which eventually comes to balance within the wisdom of the
          > Source .... Knowing it to be one and yet beyond a structure of
          > One - 0 ......
          >
          > <<this is such a difficult rendering to attempt to share..... no
          words
          > are adequate - all words separate us from IS.... of course still
          > we try for it is the great liberator from all illusion, that was the
          > disturbance called self ....
          >
          >
          > > > shanti om ..g...>>
          >
          > yes ganga....perhaps it can be spoken of, adequately or
          inadequately,
          > depending on many factors.....but, bottom line,
          > it has to be lived.
          >
          > yes, there is a terror for the ego identity,
          > a great terror-- until then finally one wonders what they
          > were so afraid of all along.....
          >
          > reminds me of trying to get into
          > a lake of cool water, first one toe, then another, inching
          > my way in, but fearful of the pain and shock of the cold,
          > not wanting to give it up and just get in--
          > and then, you're in!
          >
          > and it feels soooo much better than you
          > had imagined, and you wonder, what was i so afraid of?
          >
          > so, then What Is is lived in every single occurence, every
          gesture,
          > every event, every thing..... from the profane and the mundane
          > to the profound and sublime....in the whorehouse and on
          > the altar.
          >
          > peace
          >
          > freyja


          G: there is nothing in the world that needs to be affirmed or
          negated.... simply life unfolds unobstructed....

          shanti om .g...
        • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
          ... get ... ********** It s all but suffering my friend. Dare look beneath the surface and you will see what you are up to , what you are *al-ways* up to.
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
            wrote:
            > ******** And let me also say this, with understanding there is
            > no "method". It's an oxymoron. "Methods" are what yogis in their
            > ignornace use. Methods are nothing more than self masturbation to
            get
            > out of their suffering.
            >
            > Judi>>
            >
            > OK, Judi, but the methods themselves are not so bad
            > if they are just looked at as just another activity,
            > like playing with the cat, or going to the movies,
            > a pleasant pastime....do you agree?
            >
            > freyja
            >
            ********** It's all but suffering my friend. Dare look beneath the
            surface and you will see what you are "up to", what you are *al-ways*
            up to. Whether you're at your best or at your worst, it makes no
            difference. *You* are an activity of suffering, nothing more, nothing
            less. And all "methods", along with everything else you *do* in life
            is an attempt in avoidance. "You" yourself are but an "attempt".
            And some are *successful* (sic) in their attempt, as we see in the
            case of Ganga here and many others of her "ilk". But understanding is
            a different matter entirely.

            Judi
          • Jeff Belyea <jeff@suiteonedesign.com>
            Judi, Judi, Judi - Are you an unpleasant ilk unto yourself? Hey, Adi Da parrot who only lives in the end zone. He was wise enough to realize that a game plan
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
              Judi, Judi, Judi -

              Are you an unpleasant ilk unto yourself?

              Hey, Adi Da parrot who only lives in the end zone.
              He was wise enough to realize that a game plan is
              needed by all but the rarest of individual, and
              he offered his seven steps with understanding,
              acknowledging that most need guidance in order
              to even approach understanding beyond duality.

              All of your mocking vulgarity and feigned
              self-righteous rage is a pompous pretense,
              and your superficially understood nonduality
              showcases your blatantly narrow view.

              I am not judging your level of realization, only
              commenting on your stuffed-full-of-yourself puffery,
              your one-trick-pony ride of "it all about suffering",
              and your repeatedly unkind sarcasm. There is more
              than your one-kick-in-the-ass-berating-fits-all
              approach to understanding. But you don't seem
              to Understand that at all.

              You can fool yourself and you can fool some
              of the people some of the time, and you can
              even engage the support and loyalty of brilliant
              (and occasionally transparently prideful) minds
              like Dan, Bruce and Greg, but you've exposed
              your lack of real of understanding about the
              human condition too many times to many who
              read these posts.

              Enjoying life, not suffering (other than
              reading your tedious one-liners),

              Jeff
            • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
              Truth is a bitter pill to swallow, and to think otherwise you are yet kidding yourself. It s no picnic I assure you. Judi
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                Truth is a bitter pill to swallow, and to think otherwise you are
                yet kidding yourself. It's no picnic I assure you.

                Judi




                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Belyea
                <jeff@s...>" <jeff@s...> wrote:
                > Judi, Judi, Judi -
                >
                > Are you an unpleasant ilk unto yourself?
                >
                > Hey, Adi Da parrot who only lives in the end zone.
                > He was wise enough to realize that a game plan is
                > needed by all but the rarest of individual, and
                > he offered his seven steps with understanding,
                > acknowledging that most need guidance in order
                > to even approach understanding beyond duality.
                >
                > All of your mocking vulgarity and feigned
                > self-righteous rage is a pompous pretense,
                > and your superficially understood nonduality
                > showcases your blatantly narrow view.
                >
                > I am not judging your level of realization, only
                > commenting on your stuffed-full-of-yourself puffery,
                > your one-trick-pony ride of "it all about suffering",
                > and your repeatedly unkind sarcasm. There is more
                > than your one-kick-in-the-ass-berating-fits-all
                > approach to understanding. But you don't seem
                > to Understand that at all.
                >
                > You can fool yourself and you can fool some
                > of the people some of the time, and you can
                > even engage the support and loyalty of brilliant
                > (and occasionally transparently prideful) minds
                > like Dan, Bruce and Greg, but you've exposed
                > your lack of real of understanding about the
                > human condition too many times to many who
                > read these posts.
                >
                > Enjoying life, not suffering (other than
                > reading your tedious one-liners),
                >
                > Jeff
              • dan330033 <dan330033@yahoo.com>
                Hi Freyja -- ... inadequately, ... Terror for what has never had its own existence can only also have no existence ... ... Reminds me of waking up in one s own
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                  Hi Freyja --
                  >
                  > yes ganga....perhaps it can be spoken of, adequately or
                  inadequately,
                  > depending on many factors.....but, bottom line,
                  > it has to be lived.
                  >
                  > yes, there is a terror for the ego identity,
                  > a great terror-- until then finally one wonders what they
                  > were so afraid of all along.....

                  Terror for what has never had its own existence
                  can only also have no existence ...

                  > reminds me of trying to get into
                  > a lake of cool water, first one toe, then another, inching
                  > my way in, but fearful of the pain and shock of the cold,
                  > not wanting to give it up and just get in--
                  > and then, you're in!

                  Reminds me of waking up in one's own bed and saying:
                  Oh, so I've never left home after all

                  > and it feels soooo much better than you
                  > had imagined, and you wonder, what was i so afraid of?

                  It sounds like your talking about an experience
                  that feels sooooo good ...

                  Any experience that begins, ends.

                  Good feelings are always relative to bad feelings.

                  Fears the end give way to new experiences that begin.

                  Yet without beginning or ending is this,
                  which has no feelings and nothing to have
                  feelings about.

                  Feelings arise and dissolve, leaving no trace.

                  > so, then What Is is lived in every single occurence, every gesture,
                  > every event, every thing..... from the profane and the mundane
                  > to the profound and sublime....in the whorehouse and on
                  > the altar.

                  Yes ... and ...

                  An ant's view of a whorehouse is quite different
                  from a human's, and an electron's view of an altar
                  is different from a dog's.

                  Perspectives cease where there can't be any
                  perspective ...

                  And when perspective ceases, and "I" clearly have
                  never had a place, all perspectives are empty,
                  and play themselves out unceasingly without
                  attachment anywhere ...

                  Peace,
                  Dan
                • lakshmi38586 <freyjartist@aol.com>
                  ... ways* ... nothing ... life ... is ... Dear Judi, I know you mean well. I have no desire to escape into spirituality or nurture a spiritual ego. However,
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes
                    <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
                    > wrote:
                    > > ******** And let me also say this, with understanding there is
                    > > no "method". It's an oxymoron. "Methods" are what yogis in their
                    > > ignornace use. Methods are nothing more than self masturbation to
                    > get
                    > > out of their suffering.
                    > >
                    > > Judi>>
                    > >
                    > > OK, Judi, but the methods themselves are not so bad
                    > > if they are just looked at as just another activity,
                    > > like playing with the cat, or going to the movies,
                    > > a pleasant pastime....do you agree?
                    > >
                    > > freyja
                    > >
                    > ********** It's all but suffering my friend. Dare look beneath the
                    > surface and you will see what you are "up to", what you are *al-
                    ways*
                    > up to. Whether you're at your best or at your worst, it makes no
                    > difference. *You* are an activity of suffering, nothing more,
                    nothing
                    > less. And all "methods", along with everything else you *do* in
                    life
                    > is an attempt in avoidance. "You" yourself are but an "attempt".
                    > And some are *successful* (sic) in their attempt, as we see in the
                    > case of Ganga here and many others of her "ilk". But understanding
                    is
                    > a different matter entirely.
                    >
                    > Judi

                    Dear Judi,

                    I know you mean well.

                    I have no desire to "escape" into spirituality
                    or nurture a spiritual ego. However,
                    I have no choice but to treat my *you* with
                    as much neutral fairness and respect as anything else, until, through
                    grace, if it is meant to be, it completely dissolves.

                    Thank you.

                    Freyja
                  • lakshmi38586 <freyjartist@aol.com>
                    ... ......dan, you always answer me beautifully and thoughtfully, but my work is now within the realm of what life dishes up for me to deal with. Concepts that
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dan330033
                      <dan330033@y...>" <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                      > Hi Freyja --
                      > >
                      > > yes ganga....perhaps it can be spoken of, adequately or
                      > inadequately,
                      > > depending on many factors.....but, bottom line,
                      > > it has to be lived.
                      > >
                      > > yes, there is a terror for the ego identity,
                      > > a great terror-- until then finally one wonders what they
                      > > were so afraid of all along.....
                      >
                      > Terror for what has never had its own existence
                      > can only also have no existence ...
                      >

                      ......dan, you always answer me beautifully
                      and thoughtfully, but my work is now within
                      the realm of what life dishes up for me to deal
                      with. Concepts that assist with that seem to
                      be the ones that penetrate me right now.

                      > > reminds me of trying to get into
                      > > a lake of cool water, first one toe, then another, inching
                      > > my way in, but fearful of the pain and shock of the cold,
                      > > not wanting to give it up and just get in--
                      > > and then, you're in!
                      >
                      > Reminds me of waking up in one's own bed and saying:
                      > Oh, so I've never left home after all
                      >

                      ....that's a good one.

                      > > and it feels soooo much better than you
                      > > had imagined, and you wonder, what was i so afraid of?
                      >
                      > It sounds like your talking about an experience
                      > that feels sooooo good ...
                      >

                      ....no not exactly. It is just my way to
                      describe it. might as well give up that
                      activity, though ;-)


                      > Any experience that begins, ends.
                      >
                      > Good feelings are always relative to bad feelings.
                      >
                      > Fears the end give way to new experiences that begin.
                      >
                      > Yet without beginning or ending is this,
                      > which has no feelings and nothing to have
                      > feelings about.
                      >
                      > Feelings arise and dissolve, leaving no trace.
                      >

                      .....if you read your last two sentences here,
                      is there a contradiction somewhere?
                      this that has no feelings. Feelings arise and dissolve.
                      Is something off with this picture?

                      > > so, then What Is is lived in every single occurence, every gest>
                      > every event, every thing..... from the profane and the mundane
                      > > to the profound and sublime....in the whorehouse and on
                      > > the altar.
                      >
                      > Yes ... and ...
                      >
                      > An ant's view of a whorehouse is quite different
                      > from a human's, and an electron's view of an altar
                      > is different from a dog's.
                      >
                      > Perspectives cease where there can't be any
                      > perspective ...
                      >
                      > And when perspective ceases, and "I" clearly have
                      > never had a place, all perspectives are empty,
                      > and play themselves out unceasingly without
                      > attachment anywhere ...
                      >

                      ....Okie dokie. yes i understand. You know, though,
                      i think freyja does have somewhat of an advantage, being a libra who
                      sees all sides to all stories and a "mediator" type instrument.

                      ;-)

                      freyja


                      > Peace,
                      > Dan
                    • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                      ... freyjartist@a... ... their ... to ... the ... the ... understanding ... through ... ********** I understand and it doesn t have anything to do with whether
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "lakshmi38586
                        <freyjartist@a...>" <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes
                        > <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                        > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        freyjartist@a...
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > ******** And let me also say this, with understanding there is
                        > > > no "method". It's an oxymoron. "Methods" are what yogis in
                        their
                        > > > ignornace use. Methods are nothing more than self masturbation
                        to
                        > > get
                        > > > out of their suffering.
                        > > >
                        > > > Judi>>
                        > > >
                        > > > OK, Judi, but the methods themselves are not so bad
                        > > > if they are just looked at as just another activity,
                        > > > like playing with the cat, or going to the movies,
                        > > > a pleasant pastime....do you agree?
                        > > >
                        > > > freyja
                        > > >
                        > > ********** It's all but suffering my friend. Dare look beneath
                        the
                        > > surface and you will see what you are "up to", what you are *al-
                        > ways*
                        > > up to. Whether you're at your best or at your worst, it makes no
                        > > difference. *You* are an activity of suffering, nothing more,
                        > nothing
                        > > less. And all "methods", along with everything else you *do* in
                        > life
                        > > is an attempt in avoidance. "You" yourself are but an "attempt".
                        > > And some are *successful* (sic) in their attempt, as we see in
                        the
                        > > case of Ganga here and many others of her "ilk". But
                        understanding
                        > is
                        > > a different matter entirely.
                        > >
                        > > Judi
                        >
                        > Dear Judi,
                        >
                        > I know you mean well.
                        >
                        > I have no desire to "escape" into spirituality
                        > or nurture a spiritual ego. However,
                        > I have no choice but to treat my *you* with
                        > as much neutral fairness and respect as anything else, until,
                        through
                        > grace, if it is meant to be, it completely dissolves.
                        >
                        > Thank you.
                        >
                        > Freyja


                        ********** I understand and it doesn't have anything to do with
                        whether a person is "spiritually" seeking or not. All "humans" are
                        basically seekers. And inquiry is NOT about hitting yourself over the
                        head with hammer, it's about the willingness to be brutually honest
                        with yourself. THAT is how we truly love ourselves, not by any of our
                        acts or attempts of avoidance, of "pleasuring" ourselves , or
                        to "get" something. Did you ever seriously ask yourself why there
                        are so very few realizers? There you have it. As Greg just mentioned
                        the other day, it's only for the "few and the proud". It's not for
                        everybody. So if your're happy, go and be happy, fine, perfect. Be a
                        child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here for.
                        I think it was Ramesh who said, if you had a chance between a million
                        bucks and realization, take the million bucks, because realization
                        offers you nothing. In fact it's worse in some ways, because the
                        lights are on. In some ways it's better I suppose, but not really. A
                        few chuckles here and there. :-)

                        Here, I'll leave you with this poem, Walt Whitman:

                        I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and
                        self-contain'd,
                        I stand and look at them long and long.
                        They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
                        They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
                        They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
                        Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning
                        things,
                        Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of
                        years ago,
                        Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.

                        Judi
                      • dan330033 <dan330033@yahoo.com>
                        Hi Jeff -- Since you mention me and what you take as my support and loyalty to Judi, I ll comment: Judi indeed focuses on an inquiry into the suffering
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                          Hi Jeff --

                          Since you mention me and what you take
                          as my support and loyalty to Judi,
                          I'll comment:

                          Judi indeed focuses on an inquiry
                          into the suffering condition of
                          an individual's attempt to exist
                          and enhance what he or she
                          believes life to be -- and that seems a
                          valid inquiry and focus to me.

                          If it seems repetitive to you, as you
                          say below (along with a lot of personalized
                          chiding) -- why not just not respond,
                          ignore that direction or those posts?

                          I'm not saying this out of loyalty or
                          to provide support.

                          I don't believe that loyalty or support
                          have anything to do with opening to/as truth --
                          those are politcal games ...

                          -- Dan






                          > Judi, Judi, Judi -
                          >
                          > Are you an unpleasant ilk unto yourself?
                          >
                          > Hey, Adi Da parrot who only lives in the end zone.
                          > He was wise enough to realize that a game plan is
                          > needed by all but the rarest of individual, and
                          > he offered his seven steps with understanding,
                          > acknowledging that most need guidance in order
                          > to even approach understanding beyond duality.
                          >
                          > All of your mocking vulgarity and feigned
                          > self-righteous rage is a pompous pretense,
                          > and your superficially understood nonduality
                          > showcases your blatantly narrow view.
                          >
                          > I am not judging your level of realization, only
                          > commenting on your stuffed-full-of-yourself puffery,
                          > your one-trick-pony ride of "it all about suffering",
                          > and your repeatedly unkind sarcasm. There is more
                          > than your one-kick-in-the-ass-berating-fits-all
                          > approach to understanding. But you don't seem
                          > to Understand that at all.
                          >
                          > You can fool yourself and you can fool some
                          > of the people some of the time, and you can
                          > even engage the support and loyalty of brilliant
                          > (and occasionally transparently prideful) minds
                          > like Dan, Bruce and Greg, but you've exposed
                          > your lack of real of understanding about the
                          > human condition too many times to many who
                          > read these posts.
                          >
                          > Enjoying life, not suffering (other than
                          > reading your tedious one-liners),
                          >
                          > Jeff
                        • dan330033 <dan330033@yahoo.com>
                          Hi Freyja -- Nice hearing from you. ... This is only contradiction to the linear mind which thinks reality must be either this or that -- in the example I
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                            Hi Freyja --

                            Nice hearing from you.

                            You wrote, in part:


                            > >D: Any experience that begins, ends.
                            > >
                            > > Good feelings are always relative to bad feelings.
                            > >
                            > > Fears the end give way to new experiences that begin.
                            > >
                            > > Yet without beginning or ending is this,
                            > > which has no feelings and nothing to have
                            > > feelings about.
                            > >
                            > > Feelings arise and dissolve, leaving no trace.
                            > >
                            >
                            > .....if you read your last two sentences here,
                            > is there a contradiction somewhere?
                            > this that has no feelings. Feelings arise and dissolve.
                            > Is something off with this picture?

                            This is only contradiction to the linear mind which
                            thinks reality must be either this or that --
                            in the example I gave: either timelessness or
                            time --

                            But it's not like that.

                            Timelessness doesn't preclude the events of time.

                            There merely is no attachment from timelessness
                            to events in time.

                            I am living in the world, but I am
                            not of the world.

                            -- Dan
                          • G <crystalkundalini@hotmail.com>
                            ... G: sure now you say that but just before there is the i never existed phrase.... once again i understand it ... but there are many that do not ....
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                              "dan330033 <dan330033@y...>" <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                              > Hi Freyja --
                              >
                              > Nice hearing from you.
                              >
                              > You wrote, in part:
                              >
                              >
                              > > >D: Any experience that begins, ends.
                              > > >
                              > > > Good feelings are always relative to bad feelings.
                              > > >
                              > > > Fears the end give way to new experiences that begin.
                              > > >
                              > > > Yet without beginning or ending is this,
                              > > > which has no feelings and nothing to have
                              > > > feelings about.
                              > > >
                              > > > Feelings arise and dissolve, leaving no trace.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > .....if you read your last two sentences here,
                              > > is there a contradiction somewhere?
                              > > this that has no feelings. Feelings arise and dissolve.
                              > > Is something off with this picture?
                              >
                              > This is only contradiction to the linear mind which
                              > thinks reality must be either this or that --
                              > in the example I gave: either timelessness or
                              > time --
                              >
                              > But it's not like that.
                              >
                              > Timelessness doesn't preclude the events of time.
                              >
                              > There merely is no attachment from timelessness
                              > to events in time.
                              >
                              > I am living in the world, but I am
                              > not of the world.
                              >
                              > -- Dan

                              G: sure now you say that but just before there is the i never
                              existed phrase.... once again i understand it ... but there are
                              many that do not ....

                              what you have written here could be just as effectively
                              dismantled as what others have done to my writing with the
                              same questions.... and same comments ... what is this I that is
                              living in the world but not of it...?

                              shanti om ...g...
                              there is speaking to the Absolute which has no cognition of
                              personal self and existence ..... and speaking to the residule
                              image that is within the transient existence....
                            • dan330033 <dan330033@yahoo.com>
                              Sure, dismantle all you want, G. At some point, the dismantler, dismantling and the dismantled all give way ... To know what is not of the I isn t going to
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                                Sure, dismantle all you want, G.

                                At some point, the dismantler, dismantling
                                and the dismantled all "give way" ...

                                To know what is not of the "I" isn't
                                going to come from someone's
                                saying things the right way --

                                The questioning into "who is saying this"
                                can of course be brought up into
                                any conversation -- but so what?

                                Does that feel like an important point to make?

                                To me that kind of questioning of
                                "who is saying this" without
                                attending to what was said
                                becomes rote and stale --

                                As do all your objections supposedly raised
                                on behalf of others, who supposedly
                                aren't ready for the truth yet.

                                You call these people "residual images" and I
                                think that's silly -- a residual image
                                doesn't hear anything said -- yet
                                you want to address these images
                                in the correct (according to Ganga)
                                way?

                                You can speak to residual images in whatever
                                way you see fit, of course, have at it.

                                It strikes me as very funny that you object
                                to how I'm talking to residual images
                                while promoting your way.

                                Well, whatever floats your boat, G!

                                Peace,
                                Dan



                                > G: sure now you say that but just before there is the i never
                                > existed phrase.... once again i understand it ... but there are
                                > many that do not ....
                                >
                                > what you have written here could be just as effectively
                                > dismantled as what others have done to my writing with the
                                > same questions.... and same comments ... what is this I that is
                                > living in the world but not of it...?
                                >
                                > shanti om ...g...
                                > there is speaking to the Absolute which has no cognition of
                                > personal self and existence ..... and speaking to the residule
                                > image that is within the transient existence....
                              • dragonpuffs7777
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                                  <poem, Walt Whitman:

                                  I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and
                                  self-contain'd,
                                  I stand and look at them long and long.
                                  They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
                                  They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
                                  They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
                                  Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of
                                  owning
                                  things,
                                  Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of
                                  years ago,
                                  Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.>

                                  Great poem. Most of it isn't true about animals, though. Anyone who
                                  really does live with animals knows that. Boy, do they ever whine
                                  when they don't get their way. The hold gudges and are devious and
                                  the slightest cue sets off their desires. They insist that one bow
                                  to the other and that there must be an accepted pecking order in the
                                  social species. They also form intense attachments to certain humans
                                  and to each other as well as to routines that must be met to keep
                                  them from whining and fretting.




                                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes
                                  <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                                  > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "lakshmi38586
                                  > <freyjartist@a...>" <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                                  > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes
                                  > > <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                                  > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                  > freyjartist@a...
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > ******** And let me also say this, with understanding there
                                  is
                                  > > > > no "method". It's an oxymoron. "Methods" are what yogis in
                                  > their
                                  > > > > ignornace use. Methods are nothing more than self
                                  masturbation
                                  > to
                                  > > > get
                                  > > > > out of their suffering.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Judi>>
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > OK, Judi, but the methods themselves are not so bad
                                  > > > > if they are just looked at as just another activity,
                                  > > > > like playing with the cat, or going to the movies,
                                  > > > > a pleasant pastime....do you agree?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > freyja
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > ********** It's all but suffering my friend. Dare look beneath
                                  > the
                                  > > > surface and you will see what you are "up to", what you are
                                  *al-
                                  > > ways*
                                  > > > up to. Whether you're at your best or at your worst, it makes
                                  no
                                  > > > difference. *You* are an activity of suffering, nothing more,
                                  > > nothing
                                  > > > less. And all "methods", along with everything else you *do*
                                  in
                                  > > life
                                  > > > is an attempt in avoidance. "You" yourself are but
                                  an "attempt".
                                  > > > And some are *successful* (sic) in their attempt, as we see in
                                  > the
                                  > > > case of Ganga here and many others of her "ilk". But
                                  > understanding
                                  > > is
                                  > > > a different matter entirely.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Judi
                                  > >
                                  > > Dear Judi,
                                  > >
                                  > > I know you mean well.
                                  > >
                                  > > I have no desire to "escape" into spirituality
                                  > > or nurture a spiritual ego. However,
                                  > > I have no choice but to treat my *you* with
                                  > > as much neutral fairness and respect as anything else, until,
                                  > through
                                  > > grace, if it is meant to be, it completely dissolves.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you.
                                  > >
                                  > > Freyja
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ********** I understand and it doesn't have anything to do with
                                  > whether a person is "spiritually" seeking or not. All "humans" are
                                  > basically seekers. And inquiry is NOT about hitting yourself over
                                  the
                                  > head with hammer, it's about the willingness to be brutually
                                  honest
                                  > with yourself. THAT is how we truly love ourselves, not by any of
                                  our
                                  > acts or attempts of avoidance, of "pleasuring" ourselves , or
                                  > to "get" something. Did you ever seriously ask yourself why there
                                  > are so very few realizers? There you have it. As Greg just
                                  mentioned
                                  > the other day, it's only for the "few and the proud". It's not
                                  for
                                  > everybody. So if your're happy, go and be happy, fine, perfect.
                                  Be a
                                  > child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here
                                  for.
                                  > I think it was Ramesh who said, if you had a chance between a
                                  million
                                  > bucks and realization, take the million bucks, because realization
                                  > offers you nothing. In fact it's worse in some ways, because the
                                  > lights are on. In some ways it's better I suppose, but not really.
                                  A
                                  > few chuckles here and there. :-)
                                  >
                                  > Here, I'll leave you with this poem, Walt Whitman:
                                  >
                                  > I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and
                                  > self-contain'd,
                                  > I stand and look at them long and long.
                                  > They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
                                  > They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
                                  > They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
                                  > Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of
                                  owning
                                  > things,
                                  > Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of
                                  > years ago,
                                  > Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.
                                  >
                                  > Judi
                                • dragonpuffs7777
                                  And, to go on and on, haha, if we really want to take a good look at ourselves, the way to do it is to observe and get to know social animals. It is quite
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 2, 2003
                                    And, to go on and on, haha, if we really want to take a good look at
                                    ourselves, the way to do it is to observe and get to know social
                                    animals. It is quite enlightening to see all the bad behaviors in
                                    humans unmasked with the games of limited reason and laying bare
                                    naked and exactly identical to the basic human. Man is an animal
                                    with a mind he hasn't yet learned to use well to his advantage, so
                                    he sometimes uses it for his disadvantage while he learns. Is this a
                                    problem? Who can possibly say? We are human, after all.



                                    In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes
                                    <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "lakshmi38586
                                    > <freyjartist@a...>" <freyjartist@a...> wrote:
                                    > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "judirhodes
                                    > > <judirhodes@z...>" <judirhodes@z...> wrote:
                                    > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                    > freyjartist@a...
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > ******** And let me also say this, with understanding there
                                    is
                                    > > > > no "method". It's an oxymoron. "Methods" are what yogis in
                                    > their
                                    > > > > ignornace use. Methods are nothing more than self
                                    masturbation
                                    > to
                                    > > > get
                                    > > > > out of their suffering.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Judi>>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > OK, Judi, but the methods themselves are not so bad
                                    > > > > if they are just looked at as just another activity,
                                    > > > > like playing with the cat, or going to the movies,
                                    > > > > a pleasant pastime....do you agree?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > freyja
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > ********** It's all but suffering my friend. Dare look beneath
                                    > the
                                    > > > surface and you will see what you are "up to", what you are
                                    *al-
                                    > > ways*
                                    > > > up to. Whether you're at your best or at your worst, it makes
                                    no
                                    > > > difference. *You* are an activity of suffering, nothing more,
                                    > > nothing
                                    > > > less. And all "methods", along with everything else you *do*
                                    in
                                    > > life
                                    > > > is an attempt in avoidance. "You" yourself are but
                                    an "attempt".
                                    > > > And some are *successful* (sic) in their attempt, as we see in
                                    > the
                                    > > > case of Ganga here and many others of her "ilk". But
                                    > understanding
                                    > > is
                                    > > > a different matter entirely.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Judi
                                    > >
                                    > > Dear Judi,
                                    > >
                                    > > I know you mean well.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have no desire to "escape" into spirituality
                                    > > or nurture a spiritual ego. However,
                                    > > I have no choice but to treat my *you* with
                                    > > as much neutral fairness and respect as anything else, until,
                                    > through
                                    > > grace, if it is meant to be, it completely dissolves.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you.
                                    > >
                                    > > Freyja
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ********** I understand and it doesn't have anything to do with
                                    > whether a person is "spiritually" seeking or not. All "humans" are
                                    > basically seekers. And inquiry is NOT about hitting yourself over
                                    the
                                    > head with hammer, it's about the willingness to be brutually
                                    honest
                                    > with yourself. THAT is how we truly love ourselves, not by any of
                                    our
                                    > acts or attempts of avoidance, of "pleasuring" ourselves , or
                                    > to "get" something. Did you ever seriously ask yourself why there
                                    > are so very few realizers? There you have it. As Greg just
                                    mentioned
                                    > the other day, it's only for the "few and the proud". It's not
                                    for
                                    > everybody. So if your're happy, go and be happy, fine, perfect.
                                    Be a
                                    > child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here
                                    for.
                                    > I think it was Ramesh who said, if you had a chance between a
                                    million
                                    > bucks and realization, take the million bucks, because realization
                                    > offers you nothing. In fact it's worse in some ways, because the
                                    > lights are on. In some ways it's better I suppose, but not really.
                                    A
                                    > few chuckles here and there. :-)
                                    >
                                    > Here, I'll leave you with this poem, Walt Whitman:
                                    >
                                    > I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and
                                    > self-contain'd,
                                    > I stand and look at them long and long.
                                    > They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
                                    > They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
                                    > They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
                                    > Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of
                                    owning
                                    > things,
                                    > Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of
                                    > years ago,
                                    > Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.
                                    >
                                    > Judi
                                  • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                                    ... .. wrote: Hi Jeff -- Since you mention me and what you take as my support and loyalty to Judi, I ll comment: Judi
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 3, 2003
                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "dan330033 <dan330033@y.=
                                      ..>" <dan330033@y...> wrote:
                                      > Hi Jeff --
                                      >
                                      > Since you mention me and what you take
                                      > as my support and loyalty to Judi,
                                      > I'll comment:
                                      >
                                      > Judi indeed focuses on an inquiry
                                      > into the suffering condition of
                                      > an individual's attempt to exist
                                      > and enhance what he or she
                                      > believes life to be -- and that seems a
                                      > valid inquiry and focus to me.




                                      just to be real Dan,

                                      I ptactice and like yoga, and her
                                      attack on it called me to point
                                      to her own message; 'you are your
                                      activity' which in her case is:
                                      sitting by the screen and 'vomiting
                                      bile'

                                      -here are 30 posts by judi, point to
                                      the ones focusing "on an inquiry
                                      into the suffering condition of an individual's attempt to exist"
                                      rather than posting bitchy, insulting
                                      remarks about subjects she knows
                                      squat about to make *HER* point ad
                                      nauseam ....while looking for
                                      followers..what else is she doing in
                                      a *meditation* club?

                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meditationsocietyofamerica/messagesearch?quer=
                                      y=judirhodes

                                      love, karta
                                      ps. your posts are also pointing to
                                      the same *place* as her, but at least
                                      you are showing some style andĀ finesse



                                      >
                                      > If it seems repetitive to you, as you
                                      > say below (along with a lot of personalized
                                      > chiding) -- why not just not respond,
                                      > ignore that direction or those posts?
                                      >
                                      > I'm not saying this out of loyalty or
                                      > to provide support.
                                      >
                                      > I don't believe that loyalty or support
                                      > have anything to do with opening to/as truth --
                                      > those are politcal games ...
                                      >
                                      > -- Dan
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Judi, Judi, Judi -
                                      > >
                                      > > Are you an unpleasant ilk unto yourself?
                                      > >
                                      > > Hey, Adi Da parrot who only lives in the end zone.
                                      > > He was wise enough to realize that a game plan is
                                      > > needed by all but the rarest of individual, and
                                      > > he offered his seven steps with understanding,
                                      > > acknowledging that most need guidance in order
                                      > > to even approach understanding beyond duality.
                                      > >
                                      > > All of your mocking vulgarity and feigned
                                      > > self-righteous rage is a pompous pretense,
                                      > > and your superficially understood nonduality
                                      > > showcases your blatantly narrow view.
                                      > >
                                      > > I am not judging your level of realization, only
                                      > > commenting on your stuffed-full-of-yourself puffery,
                                      > > your one-trick-pony ride of "it all about suffering",
                                      > > and your repeatedly unkind sarcasm. There is more
                                      > > than your one-kick-in-the-ass-berating-fits-all
                                      > > approach to understanding. But you don't seem
                                      > > to Understand that at all.
                                      > >
                                      > > You can fool yourself and you can fool some
                                      > > of the people some of the time, and you can
                                      > > even engage the support and loyalty of brilliant
                                      > > (and occasionally transparently prideful) minds
                                      > > like Dan, Bruce and Greg, but you've exposed
                                      > > your lack of real of understanding about the
                                      > > human condition too many times to many who
                                      > > read these posts.
                                      > >
                                      > > Enjoying life, not suffering (other than
                                      > > reading your tedious one-liners),
                                      > >
                                      > > Jeff
                                    • freyjartist@aol.com
                                      ... Hi Dan, I realize i am not the only one reading here, so any dialogues may be helpful to any number of readers, but let me see if i can convey something
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 3, 2003
                                        > > Yet without beginning or ending is this,
                                        > > which has no feelings and nothing to have
                                        > > feelings about.
                                        > >
                                        > > Feelings arise and dissolve, leaving no trace.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > .....if you read your last two sentences here,
                                        > is there a contradiction somewhere?
                                        > this that has no feelings. Feelings arise and dissolve.
                                        > Is something off with this picture? >>

                                        Hi Dan,

                                        I realize i am not the only one reading here,
                                        so any dialogues may be helpful to any number of
                                        readers, but let me see if i can convey something
                                        from my perspective that may or may not be of
                                        benefit to your means of communicating.

                                        <<This is only contradiction to the linear mind which
                                        thinks reality must be either this or that --
                                        in the example I gave: either timelessness or
                                        time -->>

                                        I "know", on whatever level i know, that reality
                                        does not have to be this or that. This is a given.

                                        But the way that you said it--it did not come
                                        across that way to me. In fact, to me, there
                                        is duality in those words.

                                        you might say, those words are only dual to
                                        a dual mind. i hope you dont, though.

                                        in any case, thanks.

                                        freyja

                                        <<But it's not like that.>>

                                        right.

                                        <<Timelessness doesn't preclude the events of time.>>

                                        well understood here.

                                        <<There merely is no attachment from timelessness
                                        to events in time.

                                        I am living in the world, but I am
                                        not of the world.

                                        -- Dan>>






                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • freyjartist@aol.com
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 3, 2003
                                          <<******** What he's saying is that everything remains. A realizer
                                          doesn't rise to some exalted state "untouched" or "un-affected",
                                          quite the opposite. It's more on the order of "crap thru a goose".
                                          But what the difference is with understanding, is "no seeking". You
                                          are left "in place". Understanding has nothing whatsoever to do
                                          with "states" of consciousness, some silent "no mind" state. In
                                          other words, you don't turn into a vegetable. You become fully human
                                          and your humanity is realized, all the way into your toes. There is
                                          no escaping anything.>>

                                          How does what you just said here jive with this below:

                                          <<So if your're happy, go and be happy, fine, perfect. Be a
                                          child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here for.
                                          I think it was Ramesh who said, if you had a chance between a million
                                          bucks and realization, take the million bucks, because realization
                                          offers you nothing. In fact it's worse in some ways, because the
                                          lights are on. In some ways it's better I suppose, but not really. A
                                          few chuckles here and there. :-)>>

                                          My question is: why does it sound like these things have to
                                          be mutually exclusive, notwithstanding the "personal involvment",
                                          which is the real issue?

                                          By "these things" i mean
                                          Be a
                                          child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here for.

                                          Why cant a "realizer" do these things? You just said its about
                                          becoming fully human and your humanity is realized all the way
                                          into your toes. So, i ask, what nebulousness are you talking
                                          about?

                                          If a realizer had a million dollars, s/he could still "enjoy"
                                          it--just not with an attachment to it.

                                          freyja
                                          a crusader for clarity




                                          I hope that help clears some of this "spiritual" nonsense up.

                                          Judi





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • judirhodes <judirhodes@zianet.com>
                                          ... human ... for. ... million ... A ... ***** Well like I said, the mis-understanding is that with realization, you get something out of it, which is NOT
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 3, 2003
                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a...
                                            wrote:
                                            > <<******** What he's saying is that everything remains. A realizer
                                            > doesn't rise to some exalted state "untouched" or "un-affected",
                                            > quite the opposite. It's more on the order of "crap thru a goose".
                                            > But what the difference is with understanding, is "no seeking". You
                                            > are left "in place". Understanding has nothing whatsoever to do
                                            > with "states" of consciousness, some silent "no mind" state. In
                                            > other words, you don't turn into a vegetable. You become fully
                                            human
                                            > and your humanity is realized, all the way into your toes. There is
                                            > no escaping anything.>>
                                            >
                                            > How does what you just said here jive with this below:
                                            >
                                            > <<So if your're happy, go and be happy, fine, perfect. Be a
                                            > child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here
                                            for.
                                            > I think it was Ramesh who said, if you had a chance between a
                                            million
                                            > bucks and realization, take the million bucks, because realization
                                            > offers you nothing. In fact it's worse in some ways, because the
                                            > lights are on. In some ways it's better I suppose, but not really.
                                            A
                                            > few chuckles here and there. :-)>>
                                            >
                                            > My question is: why does it sound like these things have to
                                            > be mutually exclusive, notwithstanding the "personal involvment",
                                            > which is the real issue?
                                            >
                                            ***** Well like I said, the mis-understanding is that with
                                            realization, "you" get something out of it, which is NOT the case.
                                            Go figure? :-) But, freedom is always here you see, it's
                                            your "self"ishness that's in the way. In ohter words, you're life is
                                            a constant tripping over yourself. The realizer doesn't "trip" over
                                            himself, he "walks" in and as himself instead. The difference is "no
                                            seeking". The realizer is simply here, in place, "as himself". Where
                                            else and who else can he be, but himself? Simple enough?



                                            > By "these things" i mean
                                            > Be a
                                            > child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here for.
                                            >
                                            > Why cant a "realizer" do these things?

                                            ******* Who said that? A realizer can do whatever he wants. A
                                            realizer is a free man.

                                            You just said its about
                                            > becoming fully human and your humanity is realized all the way
                                            > into your toes. So, i ask, what nebulousness are you talking
                                            > about?
                                            >
                                            > If a realizer had a million dollars, s/he could still "enjoy"
                                            > it--just not with an attachment to it.
                                            >

                                            ****** Sure, things come, things go. Change is the nature of the
                                            game.


                                            > freyja
                                            > a crusader for clarity
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I hope that help clears some of this "spiritual" nonsense up.
                                            >
                                            > Judi
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • satkartar7 <mi_nok@yahoo.com>
                                            ... Bingo!, Freyja you get + 2 buds above judi for your insight and clarity! -if a *realizer fully human state* is masturbating by a computer to the tune of
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 3, 2003
                                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, freyjartist@a... wrote:
                                              > <<******** What he's saying is that everything remains. A realizer
                                              > doesn't rise to some exalted state "untouched" or "un-affected",
                                              > quite the opposite. It's more on the order of "crap thru a goose".
                                              > But what the difference is with understanding, is "no seeking". You
                                              > are left "in place". Understanding has nothing whatsoever to do
                                              > with "states" of consciousness, some silent "no mind" state. In
                                              > other words, you don't turn into a vegetable. You become fully human
                                              > and your humanity is realized, all the way into your toes. There is
                                              > no escaping anything.>>
                                              >
                                              > How does what you just said here jive with this below:
                                              >
                                              > <<So if your're happy, go and be happy, fine, perfect. Be a
                                              > child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here for.
                                              > I think it was Ramesh who said, if you had a chance between a million
                                              > bucks and realization, take the million bucks, because realization
                                              > offers you nothing. In fact it's worse in some ways, because the
                                              > lights are on. In some ways it's better I suppose, but not really. A
                                              > few chuckles here and there. :-)>>
                                              >
                                              > My question is: why does it sound like these things have to
                                              > be mutually exclusive, notwithstanding the "personal involvment",
                                              > which is the real issue?
                                              >
                                              > By "these things" i mean
                                              > Be a
                                              > child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here for.
                                              >
                                              > Why cant a "realizer" do these things? You just said its about
                                              > becoming fully human and your humanity is realized all the way
                                              > into your toes.


                                              Bingo!, Freyja you get + 2 buds above
                                              judi for your insight and clarity!

                                              -if a *realizer fully human state* is
                                              masturbating by a computer to the
                                              tune of 'fundamentalist' wise-cracks,
                                              I pass on it.

                                              judi can enjoy the smell of her farts
                                              which is the the blue print of her *realization* and message: "sort of
                                              like taking a deep breath and realizing
                                              that you've been farting in your
                                              spacesuit. :-) "

                                              -I choose to live *life*; and freely
                                              enjoy what it offers; including
                                              altered states of meditation, or music, nature


                                              love, karta



                                              So, i ask, what nebulousness are you talking
                                              > about?
                                              >
                                              > If a realizer had a million dollars, s/he could still "enjoy"
                                              > it--just not with an attachment to it.
                                              >
                                              > freyja
                                              > a crusader for clarity
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I hope that help clears some of this "spiritual" nonsense up.
                                              >
                                              > Judi
                                            • G <crystalkundalini@hotmail.com>
                                              ... realizer ... You ... human ... is ... million ... realization ... A ... involvment , ... G: i say that realization or enlightenment is the end of the path
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Feb 3, 2003
                                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                                freyjartist@a... wrote:
                                                > <<******** What he's saying is that everything remains. A
                                                realizer
                                                > doesn't rise to some exalted state "untouched" or "un-affected",
                                                > quite the opposite. It's more on the order of "crap thru a goose".
                                                > But what the difference is with understanding, is "no seeking".
                                                You
                                                > are left "in place". Understanding has nothing whatsoever to do
                                                > with "states" of consciousness, some silent "no mind" state. In
                                                > other words, you don't turn into a vegetable. You become fully
                                                human
                                                > and your humanity is realized, all the way into your toes. There
                                                is
                                                > no escaping anything.>>
                                                >
                                                > How does what you just said here jive with this below:
                                                >
                                                > <<So if your're happy, go and be happy, fine, perfect. Be a
                                                > child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here for.
                                                > I think it was Ramesh who said, if you had a chance between a
                                                million
                                                > bucks and realization, take the million bucks, because
                                                realization
                                                > offers you nothing. In fact it's worse in some ways, because the
                                                > lights are on. In some ways it's better I suppose, but not really.
                                                A
                                                > few chuckles here and there. :-)>>
                                                >
                                                > My question is: why does it sound like these things have to
                                                > be mutually exclusive, notwithstanding the "personal
                                                involvment",
                                                > which is the real issue?
                                                >
                                                > By "these things" i mean
                                                > Be a
                                                > child, go, play, enjoy, love one another, that's what it's here for.
                                                >
                                                > Why cant a "realizer" do these things? You just said its about
                                                > becoming fully human and your humanity is realized all the way
                                                > into your toes. So, i ask, what nebulousness are you talking
                                                > about?
                                                >
                                                > If a realizer had a million dollars, s/he could still "enjoy"
                                                > it--just not with an attachment to it.
                                                >
                                                > freyja
                                                > a crusader for clarity
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I hope that help clears some of this "spiritual" nonsense up.
                                                >
                                                > Judi

                                                G: i say that realization or enlightenment is the end of the "path
                                                and seeking " but the beginning of life.... before that most are
                                                just existing... attempting to manage their way through the
                                                conditioning's that life has handed them....

                                                afterwards life is Lived and Enjoyed ... no more hang ups ... one
                                                is not a stone or a robot ... but a fully alive, vibrant and free
                                                individual.... not some pie in the sky seeker yet fully cognizant of
                                                Life to its core.... at Peace within with a thread of knowing that is
                                                a stabalization in the ever changing transient play.....

                                                shanti om ...g...
                                              • dan330033 <dan330033@yahoo.com>
                                                Hi Freyja -- ... It seems you have taken it on yourself to improve my means of communicating. To me, that means we re already not communicating ... :-) ...
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Feb 3, 2003
                                                  Hi Freyja --

                                                  > I realize i am not the only one reading here,
                                                  > so any dialogues may be helpful to any number of
                                                  > readers, but let me see if i can convey something
                                                  > from my perspective that may or may not be of
                                                  > benefit to your means of communicating.

                                                  It seems you have taken it on yourself to improve
                                                  my means of communicating. To me, that means
                                                  we're already not communicating ... :-)

                                                  > <<This is only contradiction to the linear mind which
                                                  > thinks reality must be either this or that --
                                                  > in the example I gave: either timelessness or
                                                  > time -->>
                                                  >
                                                  > I "know", on whatever level i know, that reality
                                                  > does not have to be this or that. This is a given.
                                                  >
                                                  > But the way that you said it--it did not come
                                                  > across that way to me. In fact, to me, there
                                                  > is duality in those words.

                                                  That's okay with me.
                                                  I'm not trying to get duality out of those words.

                                                  > you might say, those words are only dual to
                                                  > a dual mind. i hope you dont, though.

                                                  Okay, I won't.

                                                  You're right, that's probably not a great response.

                                                  So, to say something other than what you warned
                                                  me not to say, I'll go with:

                                                  "I'm not trying to get the duality
                                                  out of those words."

                                                  > in any case, thanks.

                                                  You're welcome.

                                                  Thanks to you, too.

                                                  -- Dan
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