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Re: The Thinker and Thought by J. Krishnamurti

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  • medit8ionsociety
    A related How to teaching found in the Kabbalah: Constantly clarify the mind, so that it be free of the dross of deceptive fantasies, groundless fears, bad
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 11 1:17 PM
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      A related "How to" teaching found in the Kabbalah:

      Constantly clarify the mind, so that it be free of the
      dross of deceptive fantasies, groundless fears, bad
      habits, and deficiencies. By cleaving in love and
      full awareness to the source of life, the soul shines
      from the supernal light, and all feelings, thoughts,
      and actions are refined. As this fundamental awareness
      becomes clearer in the recesses of the soul, the
      sensation and excitement of cleaving to the divine is
      activated, conducting the entire course of your life.


      medit8ionsociety <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > > "walto" <calhorn@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Ach, if only it were so simple...
      > >
      >
      > Yes, that's so, and as St Wilt once sang* "That's easy
      > to say but so hard to do". Mindfulness bring us to being
      > in the Witness position where we can and do observe
      > the thought and the thinker, and with perhaps several
      > lifetimes of practice, and hopefully in this one, we can
      > attend to our life as it flows by in "Real Time".
      > Here is one basic "how-to" exercise technique in
      > Mindfulness that deals with making mental notes, using
      > awareness of taking a drink as an example. This method
      > may be of help in "getting IT".
      > ---------------------------------------------------------
      > When you look at the tap or water-pot on arriving
      > at the place where you are to take a drink, be sure
      > to make a mental note, looking, seeing.
      >
      > When you stop walking, stopping.
      > When you stretch out the hand, stretching.
      > When you touch the cup, touching.
      > When you take the cup, taking.
      > When dipping the cup into the water, dipping.
      > When bringing the cup to the lips, bringing.
      > When the cup touches the lips, touching.
      > When you swallow, swallowing.
      > When returning the cup, returning.
      > When withdrawing the hand, withdrawing.
      > When you bring down the hand, bringing.
      > When the hand touches the side of the body, touching.
      > If you intend to turn round, intending.
      > When you turn round, turning.
      > When you walk forward, walking.
      > On arriving at the place where you intend to stop, intending.
      > When you stop, stopping.
      > -----------------------------------------------------------------
      > * That's Easy To Say (But So Hard To Do) is the "B"
      > side of Sri Wilt Chamberlain's 45 RPM record "By The River"
      > -----------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > > > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > The Thinker and Thought
      > > >
      > > > Is there any relationship between the thinker
      > > > and his thought, or is there only thought and
      > > > not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there
      > > > is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there
      > > > a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts,
      > > > thought itself creates the thinker who gives
      > > > himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker;
      > > > then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent
      > > > entity apart from thoughts which are always in a
      > > > state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and
      > > > not the other way about. The thinker does not create
      > > > thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is
      > > > no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his
      > > > parent and tries to establish a relationship, a
      > > > relationship between the so-called permanent, which
      > > > is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent
      > > > or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.
      > > >
      > > > Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it
      > > > out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what
      > > > happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all.
      > > > For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think
      > > > there are two states, as the thinker and the thought.
      > > > These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only
      > > > thought, and the bundle of thought creates the
      > > > 'me', the thinker.
      > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
      > > > Fair Use Notice: This document may contain
      > > > copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically
      > > > authorized by the copyright owners. I believe that
      > > > this not-for-profit, educational use on the Web
      > > > constitutes a fair use of the copyrighted material
      > > > (as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law).
      > > > If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes
      > > > of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain
      > > > permission from the copyright owner.
      > > >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
    • walto
      Thanks, but I wasn t actually referring to the ACCEPTANCE of Krishnamurti s no-self assertions. In my view, such claims not only are but, SHOULD be
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 12 4:19 AM
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        Thanks, but I wasn't actually referring to the ACCEPTANCE of Krishnamurti's no-self assertions. In my view, such claims not only are but, SHOULD be controversial. They're extremely complicated, and many brilliant thinkers of all stripes have disagreed about them for thousands of years. I don't take it as my task to agree with one or another of these positions. If I did, I'd hightail it to some hypnotist and give him/her detailed instructions. That might even be faster than the meditation techniques you've suggested.

        The quest to believe this or that is a religious one. I don't want to criticize it here, but...it's not my way.

        OTOH, I do kind of admire your way of taking nearly every question you see here as a request for a serum. You're kindly and always want to help--as if all philosophical, or even scientific questions could be cleared up by breathing exercises. It's sweet.

        W

        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > > "walto" <calhorn@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Ach, if only it were so simple...
        > >
        >
        > Yes, that's so, and as St Wilt once sang* "That's easy
        > to say but so hard to do". Mindfulness bring us to being
        > in the Witness position where we can and do observe
        > the thought and the thinker, and with perhaps several
        > lifetimes of practice, and hopefully in this one, we can
        > attend to our life as it flows by in "Real Time".
        > Here is one basic "how-to" exercise technique in
        > Mindfulness that deals with making mental notes, using
        > awareness of taking a drink as an example. This method
        > may be of help in "getting IT".
        > ---------------------------------------------------------
        > When you look at the tap or water-pot on arriving
        > at the place where you are to take a drink, be sure
        > to make a mental note, looking, seeing.
        >
        > When you stop walking, stopping.
        > When you stretch out the hand, stretching.
        > When you touch the cup, touching.
        > When you take the cup, taking.
        > When dipping the cup into the water, dipping.
        > When bringing the cup to the lips, bringing.
        > When the cup touches the lips, touching.
        > When you swallow, swallowing.
        > When returning the cup, returning.
        > When withdrawing the hand, withdrawing.
        > When you bring down the hand, bringing.
        > When the hand touches the side of the body, touching.
        > If you intend to turn round, intending.
        > When you turn round, turning.
        > When you walk forward, walking.
        > On arriving at the place where you intend to stop, intending.
        > When you stop, stopping.
        > -----------------------------------------------------------------
        > * That's Easy To Say (But So Hard To Do) is the "B"
        > side of Sri Wilt Chamberlain's 45 RPM record "By The River"
        > -----------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > > > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > The Thinker and Thought
        > > >
        > > > Is there any relationship between the thinker
        > > > and his thought, or is there only thought and
        > > > not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there
        > > > is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there
        > > > a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts,
        > > > thought itself creates the thinker who gives
        > > > himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker;
        > > > then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent
        > > > entity apart from thoughts which are always in a
        > > > state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and
        > > > not the other way about. The thinker does not create
        > > > thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is
        > > > no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his
        > > > parent and tries to establish a relationship, a
        > > > relationship between the so-called permanent, which
        > > > is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent
        > > > or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.
        > > >
        > > > Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it
        > > > out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what
        > > > happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all.
        > > > For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think
        > > > there are two states, as the thinker and the thought.
        > > > These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only
        > > > thought, and the bundle of thought creates the
        > > > 'me', the thinker.
        > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
        > > > Fair Use Notice: This document may contain
        > > > copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically
        > > > authorized by the copyright owners. I believe that
        > > > this not-for-profit, educational use on the Web
        > > > constitutes a fair use of the copyrighted material
        > > > (as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law).
        > > > If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes
        > > > of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain
        > > > permission from the copyright owner.
        > > >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
      • medit8ionsociety
        ... Condescension condenses consciousness. Kir Li Molari
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 13 3:34 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          "walto" <calhorn@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks, but I wasn't actually referring to the ACCEPTANCE of Krishnamurti's no-self assertions. In my view, such claims not only are but, SHOULD be controversial. They're extremely complicated, and many brilliant thinkers of all stripes have disagreed about them for thousands of years. I don't take it as my task to agree with one or another of these positions. If I did, I'd hightail it to some hypnotist and give him/her detailed instructions. That might even be faster than the meditation techniques you've suggested.
          >
          > The quest to believe this or that is a religious one. I don't want to criticize it here, but...it's not my way.
          >
          > OTOH, I do kind of admire your way of taking nearly every question you see here as a request for a serum. You're kindly and always want to help--as if all philosophical, or even scientific questions could be cleared up by breathing exercises. It's sweet.
          >
          > W

          "Condescension condenses consciousness."
          Kir Li Molari

          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > > "walto" <calhorn@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Ach, if only it were so simple...
          > > >
          > >
          > > Yes, that's so, and as St Wilt once sang* "That's easy
          > > to say but so hard to do". Mindfulness bring us to being
          > > in the Witness position where we can and do observe
          > > the thought and the thinker, and with perhaps several
          > > lifetimes of practice, and hopefully in this one, we can
          > > attend to our life as it flows by in "Real Time".
          > > Here is one basic "how-to" exercise technique in
          > > Mindfulness that deals with making mental notes, using
          > > awareness of taking a drink as an example. This method
          > > may be of help in "getting IT".
          > > ---------------------------------------------------------
          > > When you look at the tap or water-pot on arriving
          > > at the place where you are to take a drink, be sure
          > > to make a mental note, looking, seeing.
          > >
          > > When you stop walking, stopping.
          > > When you stretch out the hand, stretching.
          > > When you touch the cup, touching.
          > > When you take the cup, taking.
          > > When dipping the cup into the water, dipping.
          > > When bringing the cup to the lips, bringing.
          > > When the cup touches the lips, touching.
          > > When you swallow, swallowing.
          > > When returning the cup, returning.
          > > When withdrawing the hand, withdrawing.
          > > When you bring down the hand, bringing.
          > > When the hand touches the side of the body, touching.
          > > If you intend to turn round, intending.
          > > When you turn round, turning.
          > > When you walk forward, walking.
          > > On arriving at the place where you intend to stop, intending.
          > > When you stop, stopping.
          > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
          > > * That's Easy To Say (But So Hard To Do) is the "B"
          > > side of Sri Wilt Chamberlain's 45 RPM record "By The River"
          > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > > > > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > The Thinker and Thought
          > > > >
          > > > > Is there any relationship between the thinker
          > > > > and his thought, or is there only thought and
          > > > > not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there
          > > > > is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there
          > > > > a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts,
          > > > > thought itself creates the thinker who gives
          > > > > himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker;
          > > > > then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent
          > > > > entity apart from thoughts which are always in a
          > > > > state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and
          > > > > not the other way about. The thinker does not create
          > > > > thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is
          > > > > no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his
          > > > > parent and tries to establish a relationship, a
          > > > > relationship between the so-called permanent, which
          > > > > is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent
          > > > > or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.
          > > > >
          > > > > Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it
          > > > > out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what
          > > > > happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all.
          > > > > For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think
          > > > > there are two states, as the thinker and the thought.
          > > > > These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only
          > > > > thought, and the bundle of thought creates the
          > > > > 'me', the thinker.
          > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
          > > > > Fair Use Notice: This document may contain
          > > > > copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically
          > > > > authorized by the copyright owners. I believe that
          > > > > this not-for-profit, educational use on the Web
          > > > > constitutes a fair use of the copyrighted material
          > > > > (as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law).
          > > > > If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes
          > > > > of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain
          > > > > permission from the copyright owner.
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • walto
          ... Milk too, I ve heard! Seriously, though, I meant my attribution of kindness and sweetness quite literally. You misunderstood me, I think. It was supposed
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 14 3:55 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            > "walto" <calhorn@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thanks, but I wasn't actually referring to the ACCEPTANCE of Krishnamurti's no-self assertions. In my view, such claims not only are but, SHOULD be controversial. They're extremely complicated, and many brilliant thinkers of all stripes have disagreed about them for thousands of years. I don't take it as my task to agree with one or another of these positions. If I did, I'd hightail it to some hypnotist and give him/her detailed instructions. That might even be faster than the meditation techniques you've suggested.
            > >
            > > The quest to believe this or that is a religious one. I don't want to criticize it here, but...it's not my way.
            > >
            > > OTOH, I do kind of admire your way of taking nearly every question you see here as a request for a serum. You're kindly and always want to help--as if all philosophical, or even scientific questions could be cleared up by breathing exercises. It's sweet.
            > >
            > > W
            >
            > "Condescension condenses consciousness."

            Milk too, I've heard!

            Seriously, though, I meant my attribution of kindness and sweetness quite literally. You misunderstood me, I think. It was supposed to be a compliment.

            W
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