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The Thinker and Thought by J. Krishnamurti

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  • medit8ionsociety
    The Thinker and Thought Is there any relationship between the thinker and his thought, or is there only thought and not a thinker? If there are no thoughts
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 9 3:38 PM
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      The Thinker and Thought

      Is there any relationship between the thinker
      and his thought, or is there only thought and
      not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there
      is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there
      a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts,
      thought itself creates the thinker who gives
      himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker;
      then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent
      entity apart from thoughts which are always in a
      state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and
      not the other way about. The thinker does not create
      thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is
      no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his
      parent and tries to establish a relationship, a
      relationship between the so-called permanent, which
      is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent
      or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.

      Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it
      out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what
      happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all.
      For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think
      there are two states, as the thinker and the thought.
      These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only
      thought, and the bundle of thought creates the
      'me', the thinker.
      ---------------------------------------------------------------
      Fair Use Notice: This document may contain
      copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically
      authorized by the copyright owners. I believe that
      this not-for-profit, educational use on the Web
      constitutes a fair use of the copyrighted material
      (as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law).
      If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes
      of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain
      permission from the copyright owner.
    • walto
      ... Ach, if only it were so simple... http://www.scribd.com/my_document_collections/3478410?page=1 W
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 10 8:40 AM
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        --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > The Thinker and Thought
        >
        > Is there any relationship between the thinker
        > and his thought, or is there only thought and
        > not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there
        > is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there
        > a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts,
        > thought itself creates the thinker who gives
        > himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker;
        > then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent
        > entity apart from thoughts which are always in a
        > state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and
        > not the other way about. The thinker does not create
        > thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is
        > no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his
        > parent and tries to establish a relationship, a
        > relationship between the so-called permanent, which
        > is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent
        > or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.
        >
        > Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it
        > out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what
        > happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all.
        > For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think
        > there are two states, as the thinker and the thought.
        > These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only
        > thought, and the bundle of thought creates the
        > 'me', the thinker.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------
        > Fair Use Notice: This document may contain
        > copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically
        > authorized by the copyright owners. I believe that
        > this not-for-profit, educational use on the Web
        > constitutes a fair use of the copyrighted material
        > (as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law).
        > If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes
        > of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain
        > permission from the copyright owner.
        >


        Ach, if only it were so simple...

        http://www.scribd.com/my_document_collections/3478410?page=1

        W
      • medit8ionsociety
        ... Yes, that s so, and as St Wilt once sang* That s easy to say but so hard to do . Mindfulness bring us to being in the Witness position where we can and do
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 11 11:28 AM
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          > "walto" <calhorn@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ach, if only it were so simple...
          >

          Yes, that's so, and as St Wilt once sang* "That's easy
          to say but so hard to do". Mindfulness bring us to being
          in the Witness position where we can and do observe
          the thought and the thinker, and with perhaps several
          lifetimes of practice, and hopefully in this one, we can
          attend to our life as it flows by in "Real Time".
          Here is one basic "how-to" exercise technique in
          Mindfulness that deals with making mental notes, using
          awareness of taking a drink as an example. This method
          may be of help in "getting IT".
          ---------------------------------------------------------
          When you look at the tap or water-pot on arriving
          at the place where you are to take a drink, be sure
          to make a mental note, looking, seeing.

          When you stop walking, stopping.
          When you stretch out the hand, stretching.
          When you touch the cup, touching.
          When you take the cup, taking.
          When dipping the cup into the water, dipping.
          When bringing the cup to the lips, bringing.
          When the cup touches the lips, touching.
          When you swallow, swallowing.
          When returning the cup, returning.
          When withdrawing the hand, withdrawing.
          When you bring down the hand, bringing.
          When the hand touches the side of the body, touching.
          If you intend to turn round, intending.
          When you turn round, turning.
          When you walk forward, walking.
          On arriving at the place where you intend to stop, intending.
          When you stop, stopping.
          -----------------------------------------------------------------
          * That's Easy To Say (But So Hard To Do) is the "B"
          side of Sri Wilt Chamberlain's 45 RPM record "By The River"
          -----------------------------------------------------------------

          > > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
          > >
          > > The Thinker and Thought
          > >
          > > Is there any relationship between the thinker
          > > and his thought, or is there only thought and
          > > not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there
          > > is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there
          > > a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts,
          > > thought itself creates the thinker who gives
          > > himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker;
          > > then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent
          > > entity apart from thoughts which are always in a
          > > state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and
          > > not the other way about. The thinker does not create
          > > thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is
          > > no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his
          > > parent and tries to establish a relationship, a
          > > relationship between the so-called permanent, which
          > > is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent
          > > or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.
          > >
          > > Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it
          > > out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what
          > > happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all.
          > > For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think
          > > there are two states, as the thinker and the thought.
          > > These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only
          > > thought, and the bundle of thought creates the
          > > 'me', the thinker.
          > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
          > > Fair Use Notice: This document may contain
          > > copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically
          > > authorized by the copyright owners. I believe that
          > > this not-for-profit, educational use on the Web
          > > constitutes a fair use of the copyrighted material
          > > (as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law).
          > > If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes
          > > of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain
          > > permission from the copyright owner.
          > >
          >

          >
        • medit8ionsociety
          A related How to teaching found in the Kabbalah: Constantly clarify the mind, so that it be free of the dross of deceptive fantasies, groundless fears, bad
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 11 1:17 PM
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            A related "How to" teaching found in the Kabbalah:

            Constantly clarify the mind, so that it be free of the
            dross of deceptive fantasies, groundless fears, bad
            habits, and deficiencies. By cleaving in love and
            full awareness to the source of life, the soul shines
            from the supernal light, and all feelings, thoughts,
            and actions are refined. As this fundamental awareness
            becomes clearer in the recesses of the soul, the
            sensation and excitement of cleaving to the divine is
            activated, conducting the entire course of your life.


            medit8ionsociety <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > "walto" <calhorn@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Ach, if only it were so simple...
            > >
            >
            > Yes, that's so, and as St Wilt once sang* "That's easy
            > to say but so hard to do". Mindfulness bring us to being
            > in the Witness position where we can and do observe
            > the thought and the thinker, and with perhaps several
            > lifetimes of practice, and hopefully in this one, we can
            > attend to our life as it flows by in "Real Time".
            > Here is one basic "how-to" exercise technique in
            > Mindfulness that deals with making mental notes, using
            > awareness of taking a drink as an example. This method
            > may be of help in "getting IT".
            > ---------------------------------------------------------
            > When you look at the tap or water-pot on arriving
            > at the place where you are to take a drink, be sure
            > to make a mental note, looking, seeing.
            >
            > When you stop walking, stopping.
            > When you stretch out the hand, stretching.
            > When you touch the cup, touching.
            > When you take the cup, taking.
            > When dipping the cup into the water, dipping.
            > When bringing the cup to the lips, bringing.
            > When the cup touches the lips, touching.
            > When you swallow, swallowing.
            > When returning the cup, returning.
            > When withdrawing the hand, withdrawing.
            > When you bring down the hand, bringing.
            > When the hand touches the side of the body, touching.
            > If you intend to turn round, intending.
            > When you turn round, turning.
            > When you walk forward, walking.
            > On arriving at the place where you intend to stop, intending.
            > When you stop, stopping.
            > -----------------------------------------------------------------
            > * That's Easy To Say (But So Hard To Do) is the "B"
            > side of Sri Wilt Chamberlain's 45 RPM record "By The River"
            > -----------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > > > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > The Thinker and Thought
            > > >
            > > > Is there any relationship between the thinker
            > > > and his thought, or is there only thought and
            > > > not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there
            > > > is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there
            > > > a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts,
            > > > thought itself creates the thinker who gives
            > > > himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker;
            > > > then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent
            > > > entity apart from thoughts which are always in a
            > > > state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and
            > > > not the other way about. The thinker does not create
            > > > thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is
            > > > no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his
            > > > parent and tries to establish a relationship, a
            > > > relationship between the so-called permanent, which
            > > > is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent
            > > > or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.
            > > >
            > > > Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it
            > > > out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what
            > > > happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all.
            > > > For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think
            > > > there are two states, as the thinker and the thought.
            > > > These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only
            > > > thought, and the bundle of thought creates the
            > > > 'me', the thinker.
            > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
            > > > Fair Use Notice: This document may contain
            > > > copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically
            > > > authorized by the copyright owners. I believe that
            > > > this not-for-profit, educational use on the Web
            > > > constitutes a fair use of the copyrighted material
            > > > (as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law).
            > > > If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes
            > > > of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain
            > > > permission from the copyright owner.
            > > >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
          • walto
            Thanks, but I wasn t actually referring to the ACCEPTANCE of Krishnamurti s no-self assertions. In my view, such claims not only are but, SHOULD be
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 12 4:19 AM
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              Thanks, but I wasn't actually referring to the ACCEPTANCE of Krishnamurti's no-self assertions. In my view, such claims not only are but, SHOULD be controversial. They're extremely complicated, and many brilliant thinkers of all stripes have disagreed about them for thousands of years. I don't take it as my task to agree with one or another of these positions. If I did, I'd hightail it to some hypnotist and give him/her detailed instructions. That might even be faster than the meditation techniques you've suggested.

              The quest to believe this or that is a religious one. I don't want to criticize it here, but...it's not my way.

              OTOH, I do kind of admire your way of taking nearly every question you see here as a request for a serum. You're kindly and always want to help--as if all philosophical, or even scientific questions could be cleared up by breathing exercises. It's sweet.

              W

              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > > "walto" <calhorn@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Ach, if only it were so simple...
              > >
              >
              > Yes, that's so, and as St Wilt once sang* "That's easy
              > to say but so hard to do". Mindfulness bring us to being
              > in the Witness position where we can and do observe
              > the thought and the thinker, and with perhaps several
              > lifetimes of practice, and hopefully in this one, we can
              > attend to our life as it flows by in "Real Time".
              > Here is one basic "how-to" exercise technique in
              > Mindfulness that deals with making mental notes, using
              > awareness of taking a drink as an example. This method
              > may be of help in "getting IT".
              > ---------------------------------------------------------
              > When you look at the tap or water-pot on arriving
              > at the place where you are to take a drink, be sure
              > to make a mental note, looking, seeing.
              >
              > When you stop walking, stopping.
              > When you stretch out the hand, stretching.
              > When you touch the cup, touching.
              > When you take the cup, taking.
              > When dipping the cup into the water, dipping.
              > When bringing the cup to the lips, bringing.
              > When the cup touches the lips, touching.
              > When you swallow, swallowing.
              > When returning the cup, returning.
              > When withdrawing the hand, withdrawing.
              > When you bring down the hand, bringing.
              > When the hand touches the side of the body, touching.
              > If you intend to turn round, intending.
              > When you turn round, turning.
              > When you walk forward, walking.
              > On arriving at the place where you intend to stop, intending.
              > When you stop, stopping.
              > -----------------------------------------------------------------
              > * That's Easy To Say (But So Hard To Do) is the "B"
              > side of Sri Wilt Chamberlain's 45 RPM record "By The River"
              > -----------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > > > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > The Thinker and Thought
              > > >
              > > > Is there any relationship between the thinker
              > > > and his thought, or is there only thought and
              > > > not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there
              > > > is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there
              > > > a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts,
              > > > thought itself creates the thinker who gives
              > > > himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker;
              > > > then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent
              > > > entity apart from thoughts which are always in a
              > > > state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and
              > > > not the other way about. The thinker does not create
              > > > thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is
              > > > no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his
              > > > parent and tries to establish a relationship, a
              > > > relationship between the so-called permanent, which
              > > > is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent
              > > > or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.
              > > >
              > > > Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it
              > > > out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what
              > > > happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all.
              > > > For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think
              > > > there are two states, as the thinker and the thought.
              > > > These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only
              > > > thought, and the bundle of thought creates the
              > > > 'me', the thinker.
              > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
              > > > Fair Use Notice: This document may contain
              > > > copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically
              > > > authorized by the copyright owners. I believe that
              > > > this not-for-profit, educational use on the Web
              > > > constitutes a fair use of the copyrighted material
              > > > (as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law).
              > > > If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes
              > > > of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain
              > > > permission from the copyright owner.
              > > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
            • medit8ionsociety
              ... Condescension condenses consciousness. Kir Li Molari
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 13 3:34 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                "walto" <calhorn@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks, but I wasn't actually referring to the ACCEPTANCE of Krishnamurti's no-self assertions. In my view, such claims not only are but, SHOULD be controversial. They're extremely complicated, and many brilliant thinkers of all stripes have disagreed about them for thousands of years. I don't take it as my task to agree with one or another of these positions. If I did, I'd hightail it to some hypnotist and give him/her detailed instructions. That might even be faster than the meditation techniques you've suggested.
                >
                > The quest to believe this or that is a religious one. I don't want to criticize it here, but...it's not my way.
                >
                > OTOH, I do kind of admire your way of taking nearly every question you see here as a request for a serum. You're kindly and always want to help--as if all philosophical, or even scientific questions could be cleared up by breathing exercises. It's sweet.
                >
                > W

                "Condescension condenses consciousness."
                Kir Li Molari

                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > > "walto" <calhorn@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Ach, if only it were so simple...
                > > >
                > >
                > > Yes, that's so, and as St Wilt once sang* "That's easy
                > > to say but so hard to do". Mindfulness bring us to being
                > > in the Witness position where we can and do observe
                > > the thought and the thinker, and with perhaps several
                > > lifetimes of practice, and hopefully in this one, we can
                > > attend to our life as it flows by in "Real Time".
                > > Here is one basic "how-to" exercise technique in
                > > Mindfulness that deals with making mental notes, using
                > > awareness of taking a drink as an example. This method
                > > may be of help in "getting IT".
                > > ---------------------------------------------------------
                > > When you look at the tap or water-pot on arriving
                > > at the place where you are to take a drink, be sure
                > > to make a mental note, looking, seeing.
                > >
                > > When you stop walking, stopping.
                > > When you stretch out the hand, stretching.
                > > When you touch the cup, touching.
                > > When you take the cup, taking.
                > > When dipping the cup into the water, dipping.
                > > When bringing the cup to the lips, bringing.
                > > When the cup touches the lips, touching.
                > > When you swallow, swallowing.
                > > When returning the cup, returning.
                > > When withdrawing the hand, withdrawing.
                > > When you bring down the hand, bringing.
                > > When the hand touches the side of the body, touching.
                > > If you intend to turn round, intending.
                > > When you turn round, turning.
                > > When you walk forward, walking.
                > > On arriving at the place where you intend to stop, intending.
                > > When you stop, stopping.
                > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                > > * That's Easy To Say (But So Hard To Do) is the "B"
                > > side of Sri Wilt Chamberlain's 45 RPM record "By The River"
                > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                > >
                > > > > medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > The Thinker and Thought
                > > > >
                > > > > Is there any relationship between the thinker
                > > > > and his thought, or is there only thought and
                > > > > not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there
                > > > > is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there
                > > > > a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts,
                > > > > thought itself creates the thinker who gives
                > > > > himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker;
                > > > > then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent
                > > > > entity apart from thoughts which are always in a
                > > > > state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and
                > > > > not the other way about. The thinker does not create
                > > > > thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is
                > > > > no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his
                > > > > parent and tries to establish a relationship, a
                > > > > relationship between the so-called permanent, which
                > > > > is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent
                > > > > or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.
                > > > >
                > > > > Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it
                > > > > out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what
                > > > > happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all.
                > > > > For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think
                > > > > there are two states, as the thinker and the thought.
                > > > > These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only
                > > > > thought, and the bundle of thought creates the
                > > > > 'me', the thinker.
                > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                > > > > Fair Use Notice: This document may contain
                > > > > copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically
                > > > > authorized by the copyright owners. I believe that
                > > > > this not-for-profit, educational use on the Web
                > > > > constitutes a fair use of the copyrighted material
                > > > > (as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law).
                > > > > If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes
                > > > > of your own that go beyond fair use, you must obtain
                > > > > permission from the copyright owner.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • walto
                ... Milk too, I ve heard! Seriously, though, I meant my attribution of kindness and sweetness quite literally. You misunderstood me, I think. It was supposed
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 14 3:55 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > "walto" <calhorn@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks, but I wasn't actually referring to the ACCEPTANCE of Krishnamurti's no-self assertions. In my view, such claims not only are but, SHOULD be controversial. They're extremely complicated, and many brilliant thinkers of all stripes have disagreed about them for thousands of years. I don't take it as my task to agree with one or another of these positions. If I did, I'd hightail it to some hypnotist and give him/her detailed instructions. That might even be faster than the meditation techniques you've suggested.
                  > >
                  > > The quest to believe this or that is a religious one. I don't want to criticize it here, but...it's not my way.
                  > >
                  > > OTOH, I do kind of admire your way of taking nearly every question you see here as a request for a serum. You're kindly and always want to help--as if all philosophical, or even scientific questions could be cleared up by breathing exercises. It's sweet.
                  > >
                  > > W
                  >
                  > "Condescension condenses consciousness."

                  Milk too, I've heard!

                  Seriously, though, I meant my attribution of kindness and sweetness quite literally. You misunderstood me, I think. It was supposed to be a compliment.

                  W
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