Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Meditation Society of America] Question about self-moha!

Expand Messages
  • Greg Brown
    Sandeep, Na mastay (if I have spelled that correctly).   Thank you for your insights. Very interesting and real. My uncle recently gave me the book When
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 10, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Sandeep, Na mastay (if I have spelled that correctly).
       
      Thank you for your insights. Very interesting and real. My uncle recently gave me the book "When things fall apart" by Pema Chodron, and many of the things you are saying are repeated by her. I just finished a chapter today on The four Mara, and I think I am starting to get it, and you have reinforced my understanding, I am grateful.
       
      This battle of letting go may be the hardest thing for me and instead just learning to "be with" things, both positive and negative. I have not seen this as drama, just taking me in the wrong direction. If I can change to having more positive thoughts rather than more negative thoughts, I can not see that it can hurt me, let alone my understand of samsara. However, I do see that having a majority of negative inner thoughts definitely holds me back from living.
       
      I was using the term moha and my version, "self-moha" based on the introductory page at the Meditation Society of America web site and how it was defined there. It sounded like it referred to giving out negative to the world. I try my best not to put my negative on others, but, I am over whelmed by it within my own mind. I cut myself down, say bad things to myself, do not give myself credit when I should, and am not at peace internally. We all think, or we could not function, I just happen to be pretty hard and mean to myself internally. This is fine to be with, but, I must learn to change this, as it is not healthy in any way.
       
      I can understand the need to be with my negative and positive thoughts, as this makes a lot of sense to me. however, I am so used to being negative to myself that I do not recognize it until later, and so, I can not even be with these thoughts to examine them - if this makes any sense at all. However, with  the book and your input, maybe I will finally get there.
       
      I will think about your "receiver of the parcel" perspective - sounds like it might get me somewhere!
       
      Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness.
       
      Sincerely, Greg.

      "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats!"
       
      :Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956).

       


      --- On Sat, 7/10/10, Sandeep <sandeep1960@...> wrote:

      From: Sandeep <sandeep1960@...>
      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Question about self-moha!
      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 8:57 AM

       


      Greg Brown wrote:
       
      Hello,
       
      I have been reading your pages of your web site, and I have also been working on using positive affirmations, meditations, etc... before I knew about your site. I have leaned that I have one of the worst habits possible for a human being, that is giving myself negative thoughts,


      Just like positive thought, negative thought..... ..is a thought about thought.

      See, both as creativity as and of thought-play and be done with the drama.




      self-moha,


      Self- Moha?

      Moha, in Sanskrit means desire or attachment.

      With what connotation are you using the term?



      all the time, a habit learned from an abusive childhood. I strongly believe in morality, justice and kindness - but, I do not give this to myself! This habit has been exceptionally hard to break and change into a positive inner dialog or even more appropriately and accepting dialog, as I am not able to recognize when I do it, as it is such a deeply ingrained habit for me to do to myself. I know all the techniques in cognitive retraining,

      A re-trained thought is thought believing itself to have been altered, changed, morphed.





      but can not seem to get to correcting this negative inner dialog.  I thought "maybe there is a way meditation can help me change this debilitating habitual negative inner dialog".


      Enquire..... ..to whom does thought (negative or positive) happen to?

      Rather than the content of the parcel and the surrounding qualification of the content...

      ...who is it that has taken delivery of the parcel?





    • Sandeep
      ... Sure.:-) And a Namaste back at ya. ... You are welcome. Much of life gets spent in de-spinning the various spins on what has happened, is happening. A
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 10, 2010
      • 0 Attachment


        Greg Brown wrote:
         

        Sandeep, Na mastay (if I have spelled that correctly).



        Sure.:-)

        And a Namaste back at ya.

         
        Thank you for your insights. Very interesting and real. My uncle recently gave me the book "When things fall apart" by Pema Chodron, and many of the things you are saying are repeated by her. I just finished a chapter today on The four Mara, and I think I am starting to get it, and you have reinforced my understanding, I am grateful.


        You are welcome.

        Much of life gets spent in de-spinning the various spins on what has happened, is happening.

        A de-spunned is another spin.

        Seeing the display that thought puts up is itself a spin-doctoring ...........if there is an engagement in such a drama..........that's fine.

        If there is a dis-engagement........that's fine too.




         
        This battle of letting go may be the hardest thing for me and instead just learning to "be with" things, both positive and negative.



        What else is "letting go" but to be with the isness of is?

        This "let-go" prescribed bromide is interesting.........in terms how widely it is doled out as the panacea of all sufferings.

        And the number of schools that have erupted all geared to teach how to let go.

        To let-go........there must be an apriori ownership of what is sought to be let-gone, isn't it?

        Otherwise, I might as well grandly proclaim " I hereby let go of the blue moon in yonder sky and all the heavenly twinkling stars"


        The examination.......of what is believed to be owned...

        the examination ...of who is it for which that ownership is a believed tenet of one's life...

        .....is the very dissolution of the sense of ownership.....

        ....which finally (without the connotation of an event in time and space)...

        .....includes the sense of ownership of oneself itself.


        The resultant milieu( to use a conventional manner of speaking).........is an existing-of-let-gone......

        ......where the absurdity of the very possibility of grasping ...anything ..holding on to anything..

        ..as well as the possibility of let-go .....of anything...

        ....is apperceived.






        I have not seen this as drama, just taking me in the wrong direction.



        That the lead actor believes so........is both part of the drama and which makes the drama possible.



        If I can change to having more positive thoughts rather than more negative thoughts, I can not see that it can hurt me, let alone my understand of samsara.



        What is samsara but the illusion that there is an inter-alia distinction between thoughts, that by changing the flavour/content of thought, any real change has been effected and that there is a thinker apart separate from thought...........to do so.

        Greg by all means.......let basic goodness drive your actions and thoughts.

        And invite seeing the situation as it is.

        .


        However, I do see that having a majority of negative inner thoughts definitely holds me back from living.



        Give an example of that......and lets look at your held-back living.



         
        I was using the term moha and my version, "self-moha" based on the introductory page at the Meditation Society of America web site and how it was defined there. It sounded like it referred to giving out negative to the world. I try my best not to put my negative on others, but, I am over whelmed by it within my own mind.



        Overwhelmed within my mind.........does it mean......you are paralyzed for any further thinking/physical actions?

        If yes.......how about seeing that sitting still and doing nothing is exactly what is in the moment and what was to be in that moment?

        Next moment.........might well be a frenzy of actions, either in the domain of mentation or physicality.

        Or more of the same.


        I cut myself down,



        Which is an arising  thought........is it not?

        Since "myself" is also a held thought(maybe a persisting one)......what is happening is thought cutting thought, is it not?

        Big deal.



        say bad things to myself, do not give myself credit when I should,



        All of these may well be happening.

        Is the real fear is that they all may be true?

        That Greg is really 'bad", really not worth crediting with anything?

        If Greg is really not worth crediting with anything..."good"....then   Greg is really not worth crediting with anything "bad" also.

        You cannot throw out all the good and keep only the bad.

        And vice versa.

        :-)



        Sure the unfolding of a life popularly known as Greg may be dotted with experiences that may have entrenched.


        Invite the dumping of  the shenanigans of thought...........and witness.....the whole enchilada of the drama.





        and am not at peace internally.


        The Holy Grail of all seekers.

        Which rests at the foot of the rainbow at the ever receding  horizon.

        So long peace is defined as the presence of something or the absence of something....

        ....it is the rainbow at the ever receding horizon.





        We all think, or we could not function, I just happen to be pretty hard and mean to myself internally. This is fine to be with, but, I must learn to change this, as it is not healthy in any way.
         
        I can understand the need to be with my negative and positive thoughts, as this makes a lot of sense to me. however, I am so used to being negative to myself that I do not recognize it until later, and so, I can not even be with these thoughts to examine them - if this makes any sense at all.



        So examine the passed moment, hour, day week or month.

        Was there ever in any instance.........a separated, individuated thinker........who out of it's independent volition.....

        .....thought the thought(whether positive or negative)?



        However, with  the book and your input, maybe I will finally get there.



        You are already there.

        Which is here.

        Which is the absence of the distinction between here and there.......and thus the absence of any possibility of moving from here to there.

        And the absence of that very absence.

        And commuting to job-place to generate pieces of paper at the end of the month......pieces of paper needed to pay the amounts on another set of pieces of paper popularly known as bills...........also happens.

        As much as any other activity, like meditation, seeking of non-dependent peace, prattling within conventions (aka this dialogue) etc etc etc.




         
        I will think about your "receiver of the parcel" perspective - sounds like it might get me somewhere!
         
        Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness.



        You are welcome.

        Take care and have fun.

        Seriousness is a dis-ease........the mother of all diseases.




         
        Sincerely, Greg.

        "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats!"
         
        :Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956).



        Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoick himself by his cojones to do something
        and return back to his chilled beer.






      • Greg Brown
        Sandeep,   Once again, Namaste!   Also, again thank you for your thoughts. I am keeping both of your emails to me so that I can read them multiple times,
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 16, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Sandeep,
           
          Once again, Namaste!
           
          Also, again thank you for your thoughts. I am keeping both of your emails to me so that I can read them multiple times, contemplate them, and then be with the thoguhts.
           
          I truly appreciate and am grateful for your input.
           
          Peace, Greg.

          "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats!"
           
          :Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956).

           


          --- On Sat, 7/10/10, Sandeep <sandeep1960@...> wrote:

          From: Sandeep <sandeep1960@...>
          Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Question about self-moha!
          To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 10:59 PM

           


          Greg Brown wrote:
           
          Sandeep, Na mastay (if I have spelled that correctly).


          Sure.:-)

          And a Namaste back at ya.

           
          Thank you for your insights. Very interesting and real. My uncle recently gave me the book "When things fall apart" by Pema Chodron, and many of the things you are saying are repeated by her. I just finished a chapter today on The four Mara, and I think I am starting to get it, and you have reinforced my understanding, I am grateful.

          You are welcome.

          Much of life gets spent in de-spinning the various spins on what has happened, is happening.

          A de-spunned is another spin.

          Seeing the display that thought puts up is itself a spin-doctoring ...........if there is an engagement in such a drama....... ...that's fine.

          If there is a dis-engagement. .......that' s fine too.




           
          This battle of letting go may be the hardest thing for me and instead just learning to "be with" things, both positive and negative.


          What else is "letting go" but to be with the isness of is?

          This "let-go" prescribed bromide is interesting. ........in terms how widely it is doled out as the panacea of all sufferings.

          And the number of schools that have erupted all geared to teach how to let go.

          To let-go...... ..there must be an apriori ownership of what is sought to be let-gone, isn't it?

          Otherwise, I might as well grandly proclaim " I hereby let go of the blue moon in yonder sky and all the heavenly twinkling stars"


          The examination. ......of what is believed to be owned...

          the examination ...of who is it for which that ownership is a believed tenet of one's life...

          .....is the very dissolution of the sense of ownership... ..

          ....which finally (without the connotation of an event in time and space)...

          .....includes the sense of ownership of oneself itself.


          The resultant milieu( to use a conventional manner of speaking)... ......is an existing-of- let-gone. .....

          ......where the absurdity of the very possibility of grasping ...anything ..holding on to anything..

          ..as well as the possibility of let-go .....of anything...

          ....is apperceived.






          I have not seen this as drama, just taking me in the wrong direction.


          That the lead actor believes so........is both part of the drama and which makes the drama possible.



          If I can change to having more positive thoughts rather than more negative thoughts, I can not see that it can hurt me, let alone my understand of samsara.


          What is samsara but the illusion that there is an inter-alia distinction between thoughts, that by changing the flavour/content of thought, any real change has been effected and that there is a thinker apart separate from thought..... ......to do so.

          Greg by all means....... let basic goodness drive your actions and thoughts.

          And invite seeing the situation as it is.

          .


          However, I do see that having a majority of negative inner thoughts definitely holds me back from living.


          Give an example of that......and lets look at your held-back living.



           
          I was using the term moha and my version, "self-moha" based on the introductory page at the Meditation Society of America web site and how it was defined there. It sounded like it referred to giving out negative to the world. I try my best not to put my negative on others, but, I am over whelmed by it within my own mind.


          Overwhelmed within my mind........ .does it mean......you are paralyzed for any further thinking/physical actions?

          If yes.......how about seeing that sitting still and doing nothing is exactly what is in the moment and what was to be in that moment?

          Next moment...... ...might well be a frenzy of actions, either in the domain of mentation or physicality.

          Or more of the same.


          I cut myself down,


          Which is an arising  thought..... ...is it not?

          Since "myself" is also a held thought(maybe a persisting one)......what is happening is thought cutting thought, is it not?

          Big deal.



          say bad things to myself, do not give myself credit when I should,


          All of these may well be happening.

          Is the real fear is that they all may be true?

          That Greg is really 'bad", really not worth crediting with anything?

          If Greg is really not worth crediting with anything..." good".... then   Greg is really not worth crediting with anything "bad" also.

          You cannot throw out all the good and keep only the bad.

          And vice versa.

          :-)



          Sure the unfolding of a life popularly known as Greg may be dotted with experiences that may have entrenched.


          Invite the dumping of  the shenanigans of thought..... ......and witness..... the whole enchilada of the drama.





          and am not at peace internally.

          The Holy Grail of all seekers.

          Which rests at the foot of the rainbow at the ever receding  horizon.

          So long peace is defined as the presence of something or the absence of something... .

          ....it is the rainbow at the ever receding horizon.





          We all think, or we could not function, I just happen to be pretty hard and mean to myself internally. This is fine to be with, but, I must learn to change this, as it is not healthy in any way.
           
          I can understand the need to be with my negative and positive thoughts, as this makes a lot of sense to me. however, I am so used to being negative to myself that I do not recognize it until later, and so, I can not even be with these thoughts to examine them - if this makes any sense at all.


          So examine the passed moment, hour, day week or month.

          Was there ever in any instance.... .....a separated, individuated thinker..... ...who out of it's independent volition.... .

          .....thought the thought(whether positive or negative)?



          However, with  the book and your input, maybe I will finally get there.


          You are already there.

          Which is here.

          Which is the absence of the distinction between here and there....... and thus the absence of any possibility of moving from here to there.

          And the absence of that very absence.

          And commuting to job-place to generate pieces of paper at the end of the month......pieces of paper needed to pay the amounts on another set of pieces of paper popularly known as bills....... ....also happens.

          As much as any other activity, like meditation, seeking of non-dependent peace, prattling within conventions (aka this dialogue) etc etc etc.




           
          I will think about your "receiver of the parcel" perspective - sounds like it might get me somewhere!
           
          Thank you for your time and thoughtfulness.


          You are welcome.

          Take care and have fun.

          Seriousness is a dis-ease.... ....the mother of all diseases.




           
          Sincerely, Greg.

          "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats!"
           
          :Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956).


          Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoick himself by his cojones to do something
          and return back to his chilled beer.






        • Greg Brown
          Sean,   I really appreciate this email. I think it is working, as I am catching myself more often. It is a matter of training myself into awareness in this
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 16, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Sean,
             
            I really appreciate this email. I think it is working, as I am catching myself more often. It is a matter of training myself into awareness in this case, as it has become so automatic for me to say negative things to myself.
             
            Peace, Greg.

            "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats!"
             
            :Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956).

             


            --- On Fri, 7/9/10, sean tremblay <bethjams9@...> wrote:

            From: sean tremblay <bethjams9@...>
            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Question about self-moha!
            To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 7:26 PM

             
            I get it, what I have found that works for me is not trying to catch myself when I'm off but rather catch myself when I am calm, when I examine my thoughts about myself or my feelings and reactions at a time when my mind is calm, I find I tend to stay calmer and have less boughts with anger or frustration, meditation helps this, of course I tend to meditate more when I feel well than when I don't, I also like some kind of physical outlet, trail runing mostly or lifting weights wich can also be very meditative.  When you pissed off and your thoughts are racing 100miles an hour exercise might be better, better that soembody telling you to let go, or clear your mind when inside your head your thinking SHUT th F@#k up dude!
            Sometimes it's better to burn out a brush fire rather than try to smother it.  And in those clm moments when all is right with the world take notice of where you are be present in it, give your self over to it as though nothing else exists, it could be dinner with friends or swimming in a lake after a rain or hanging with your girl ect...

            --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Greg Brown <browntrout@yahoo. com> wrote:

            From: Greg Brown <browntrout@yahoo. com>
            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Question about self-moha!
            To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 6:10 PM

             
            I have been trying to break through this problem barrier for years now... But, I seem not to be able to catch myself in it so I can look into why I think and say these things, and then replace them... Any thoughts on how to do this? I really want to win this battle with myself... Thanks. I do know I am not alone in this... Peace, Greg.

            "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats!"
             
            :Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956).

             


            --- On Fri, 7/9/10, sean tremblay <bethjams9@yahoo. com> wrote:

            From: sean tremblay <bethjams9@yahoo. com>
            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Question about self-moha!
            To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 4:31 PM

             
            your not allone Greg and you found a great spot for self exploration

            --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Greg Brown <browntrout@yahoo. com> wrote:

            From: Greg Brown <browntrout@yahoo. com>
            Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Question about self-moha!
            To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 1:55 PM

             
            Hello,
             
            I have been reading your pages of your web site, and I have also been working on using positive affirmations, meditations, etc... before I knew about your site. I have leaned that I have one of the worst habits possible for a human being, that is giving myself negative thoughts, self-moha, all the time, a habit learned from an abusive childhood. I strongly believe in morality, justice and kindness - but, I do not give this to myself! This habit has been exceptionally hard to break and change into a positive inner dialog or even more appropriately and accepting dialog, as I am not able to recognize when I do it, as it is such a deeply ingrained habit for me to do to myself. I know all the techniques in cognitive retraining, but can not seem to get to correcting this negative inner dialog.  I thought "maybe there is a way meditation can help me change this debilitating habitual negative inner dialog".
             
            Do you have any thoughts, as I would be honored and glad to consider them.
             
            Thank you, Greg.
             

             


          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.