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Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari

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  • medit8ionsociety
    ... Yo Faithe, The root word of religion is the same as Realization, and that s what Meditation is all about. I think if you search our web site
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 5, 2010
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      "tarah513" <faithearden@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Bob.
      >
      > OK, I see where you are coming from. I am not a Christian. I do not
      > follow the precepts of the Bible or of any organized religion. It has
      > been a quite freeing experience and definitely has given me a different
      > perspective on life.
      >
      > "Thy will be done on earth" has a totally different connotation for me.
      >
      > Is it important? To me, it is very important and I constantly make an
      > effort to not partake in the religions - west or east. I perceive
      > religion as no different from politics = people scrambling for king of
      > top of the heap.
      >
      > Can meditation be kept separate from religion?
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > Faithe
      >
      Yo Faithe,
      The root word of religion is the same as Realization,
      and that's what Meditation is all about. I think if you
      search our web site http://www.meditationsociety.com
      you'll see that there is no religion pointed to, but
      that all of the techniques and concepts there are
      applicable to every religion. There is no need to fear
      that meditation is somehow always attached to religion.
      As a matter of fact, some fundamentalist sects look on
      meditation as some sort of witchcraft or devil inspired
      thing. What I suggest is that you actually sit in
      meditation and see what it does for you. I expect there
      is little likelihood that you will start wearing a cross
      or a yalmulka or start treating cows as gods. What I do
      think will happen is that you will gain great insight
      into who you are and what life is all about. And these
      realizations will form a Faithe religion you can have real
      faith in.
      Peace and blessings,
      Bob
      >
      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > >
      > > "tarah513" faithearden@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Dear Bob.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for your reply.
      > > >
      > > > I have a penchant for reading and comprehending as the words are
      > > > spoken/written. I take the meaning head-on. That is just the way I
      > am.
      > > > Having been a business leader, I was entrusted to communicate
      > clearly,
      > > > concisely and with no "double meaning". Perhaps we would have less
      > > > problems with meditation, spiritual & religious speakings if it was
      > > > either spoken in the same manner, or, if silence just prevaled on
      > the
      > > > topic if words could not do it justice.
      > > >
      > > > Reference "Thy will be done"...I am VERY serious when I ask this
      > > > question...exactly who is this "thy"? I could never figure it out.
      > > >
      > > > Faithe
      > > >
      > > Yo Faithe,
      > > "Thy will be done" is from the bible (Matthew 6:9-13)
      > > "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
      > > and for me, this goes perfectly with life experience.
      > > The Big "THY in the sky/heart"/"God" is what is
      > > being referred to here. An example of what that
      > > is about is the reality that you can't be sure you won't
      > > fall on your face when you get up from reading this,
      > > can you? This is where the idea that everything
      > > is just God's will being acted out comes in to play.
      > > And this can segue into interesting inner enqueries
      > > that are effective meditative exercises. For example,
      > > do we really have free will, or is everything just
      > > destiny? Are we capable of "doing" or do things just
      > > happen? What about Karma? Reincarnation? Good
      > > intentions? And so on and so on. Another ? I especially
      > > like is the admonition to obey the 1st commandment, which
      > > says to put no other god before God. Wouldn't that
      > > mean that if we are thinking about anything but God
      > > we are putting that thing/idea/feeling ahead of GOD?
      > > And if we obey all of the other 612 commandments
      > > (Thou shalt's/Thou shalt not's) in the old testement,
      > > but not the 1st, would we still be considered a sinner?
      > > Anyway, these are all parts of common religion
      > > based questions that so many of us look only outside our
      > > Self to answer, while Meditation points to us to look
      > > inside for all the spiritual answers we need. And if
      > > we do, maybe that's because it was "Thy's" will to do so!
      > > Peace and blessings,
      > > Bob
      > >
      > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety
      > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > "tarah513" faithearden@ wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
      > medit8ionsociety
      > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
      > > > > > > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
      > > > > > > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
      > > > > > > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > HA-HA-HA!!!
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer. Let me
      > > > tell
      > > > > > you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is the
      > > > growing!
      > > > > > Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing,
      > herbicides,
      > > > > > insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT grow
      > > > > > "effortlessly".
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can I
      > buy
      > > > some
      > > > > > if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Faithe
      > > > > >
      > > > > Yo Faithe,
      > > > > You missed the point by being so literal, but
      > > > > your perspective on this somewhat reminds me
      > > > > of this Nasrudin story:
      > > > > Our Mullah Nasruddin took all his savings and went
      > > > > to buy a shirt. All eyes and ears he entered a
      > > > > tailor's shop, was measured and told: "Will you
      > > > > be back in a week? God willing - your shirt will
      > > > > be finished." The week was an exercise in patience,
      > > > > which duly passed and our hero returned to the tailor:
      > "Unfortunately,
      > > > there's been a delay. But - God
      > > > > willing - your shirt will be ready tomorrow."
      > > > > Nasrudin returned the next day. "I am sorry" he
      > > > > was greeted "just a few more stiches, a few more...
      > > > > Pray be back tomorrow and - God willing - it
      > > > > will be ready."
      > > > > "And " was the vexed Mullah heard to say
      > > > > "how long will it take, if we leave God out of it?"
      > > > >
      > > > > So, perhaps believing in God or Grace, or anything
      > > > > similar will not get your shirt made, or your crops to
      > > > > come to harvest, but, as Sri Mahararaj Nisargadatta said
      > > > > "Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not
      > > > > be convinced that effort will take you nowhere.
      > > > > The self is so self-confident that unless it is
      > > > > totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal
      > > > > conviction is not enough."
      > > > >
      > > > > As for me, I feel at One with another Kir Li Molari
      > > > > statement:
      > > > > "There's only one rule in this game – Thy will be done!"
      > > > > And that refers to all and everything, especially
      > > > > Enlightenment (or whatever you want to label IT) being
      > > > > a product of Grace.
      > > > >
      > > > > Peace and blessings,
      > > > > Bob
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • sandeep chatterjee
      - From: medit8ionsociety Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari To:
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 5, 2010
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        -

        From: medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari
        To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 11:33 PM

         

        "tarah513" <faithearden@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Bob.
        >
        > Thanks for your reply.
        >
        > I have a penchant for reading and comprehending as the words are
        > spoken/written. I take the meaning head-on. That is just the way I am.
        > Having been a business leader, I was entrusted to communicate clearly,
        > concisely and with no "double meaning". Perhaps we would have less
        > problems with meditation, spiritual & religious speakings if it was
        > either spoken in the same manner, or, if silence just prevaled on the
        > topic if words could not do it justice.
        >
        > Reference "Thy will be done"...I am VERY serious when I ask this
        > question...exactly who is this "thy"? I could never figure it out.
        >
        > Faithe


        The source .....

        ....from which the thought...

        .... in the form of the question "Who is this thy".....


        .....arose.






        .

      • sandeep chatterjee
        ... From: tarah513 Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari To:
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 5, 2010
        • 0 Attachment


          --- On Tue, 4/6/10, tarah513 <faithearden@...> wrote:

          From: tarah513 <faithearden@...>
          Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari
          To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 3:45 AM

           



          Dear Bob.

          OK, I see where you are coming from. I am not a Christian. I do not
          follow the precepts of the Bible or of any organized religion. It has
          been a quite freeing experience and definitely has given me a different
          perspective on life.

          "Thy will be done on earth" has a totally different connotation for me.

          Is it important? To me, it is very important and I constantly make an
          effort to not partake in the religions - west or east. I perceive
          religion as no different from politics = people scrambling for king of
          top of the heap.

          Can meditation be kept separate from religion?

          Thanks.

          Faithe

          -------------



          Religion is never east or west.


          The word religion means re-connect.


          Re-connecting .......by ......and .......of .......that which never disconnected.



          Incidentally, "what is..... is thy will".....


          .....is the common bedrock of all flavours, eastern or western.



          Including the flavour called science, which cannot isolate any separative state from the entirety...... in order to further  postulate an independent casual agent for any effect.


          Just 2 weeks back neuro-scientists and behaviourial experts have collaborated and identified a "moral compass" region of the human brain which produces the thought seen as moral judgments.


          And established that this moral compass can be significantly affected by subjecting it to differing magnetic fields.



          So much for ........."it is me which thinks, ergo it is me which exists as a separative individuated self-entity(aka Descartes) and thus it is me which decides on my value system and thus the nature of my life ..........all out of my independent volition."




          Now as a response to the above.......thought may get risen in the form ...

          ..."to hell with re-connecting, all this re-connecting has only produced violence and intolerance whether at individual level or family or societal or national.

          And what is being spouted as above is more of the same cockamamie re-connecting."




          Such an risen thought  is perfectly fine.

          And is as much a nuance of thy will.:-)







        • sean tremblay
          THY is first cause, the will that begets manifestation, it could be seen as intentione human being unlike a dog or cat can look at a hill top and imagine a
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 6, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            THY is first cause, the will that begets manifestation, it could be seen as intentione human being unlike a dog or cat can look at a hill top and imagine a house, he can then imagine
            blue shutters and white siding, he can create in his mind every possible detail, this is THY Will, and then the human can gather the necessary materials and actually manifest this house, he can make it a reality from thought form to physical(some of you please avoid the urge to get all nitnoid about which form is really real, it's cliche and annoying) As I was saying the thought becomes manifest this is how in my opinion we are Made In Gods Image, it is the ability to call forth what is manifest what is potential and make it manifest, THY is god Gods will be done, THY Kingdom come-which means to actually realize and perceive the world as it really is, the problem with being made in gods image is that we can impose our will on what is already made manifest, this imposition of values and judgments causes confusion and pain and all kinds of problems/falsehood.  If you have a problem with the word God as some people do then think of God as first cause, because as far as we know everything came from something
            In the beginning was the word
            OM
             
            --- On Mon, 4/5/10, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            From: medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari
            To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 3:03 PM

             

            "tarah513" <faithearden@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Bob.
            >
            > Thanks for your reply.
            >
            > I have a penchant for reading and comprehending as the words are
            > spoken/written. I take the meaning head-on. That is just the way I am.
            > Having been a business leader, I was entrusted to communicate clearly,
            > concisely and with no "double meaning". Perhaps we would have less
            > problems with meditation, spiritual & religious speakings if it was
            > either spoken in the same manner, or, if silence just prevaled on the
            > topic if words could not do it justice.
            >
            > Reference "Thy will be done"...I am VERY serious when I ask this
            > question...exactly who is this "thy"? I could never figure it out.
            >
            > Faithe
            >
            Yo Faithe,
            "Thy will be done" is from the bible (Matthew 6:9-13)
            "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
            and for me, this goes perfectly with life experience.
            The Big "THY in the sky/heart"/" God" is what is
            being referred to here. An example of what that
            is about is the reality that you can't be sure you won't
            fall on your face when you get up from reading this,
            can you? This is where the idea that everything
            is just God's will being acted out comes in to play.
            And this can segue into interesting inner enqueries
            that are effective meditative exercises. For example,
            do we really have free will, or is everything just
            destiny? Are we capable of "doing" or do things just
            happen? What about Karma? Reincarnation? Good
            intentions? And so on and so on. Another ? I especially
            like is the admonition to obey the 1st commandment, which
            says to put no other god before God. Wouldn't that
            mean that if we are thinking about anything but God
            we are putting that thing/idea/feeling ahead of GOD?
            And if we obey all of the other 612 commandments
            (Thou shalt's/Thou shalt not's) in the old testement,
            but not the 1st, would we still be considered a sinner?
            Anyway, these are all parts of common religion
            based questions that so many of us look only outside our
            Self to answer, while Meditation points to us to look
            inside for all the spiritual answers we need. And if
            we do, maybe that's because it was "Thy's" will to do so!
            Peace and blessings,
            Bob

            > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, medit8ionsociety
            > <no_reply@> wrote:
            > >
            > > "tarah513" faithearden@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, medit8ionsociety
            > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
            > > > > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
            > > > > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
            > > > > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
            > > > >
            > > > HA-HA-HA!!!
            > > >
            > > > I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer. Let me
            > tell
            > > > you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is the
            > growing!
            > > > Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing, herbicides,
            > > > insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT grow
            > > > "effortlessly" .
            > > >
            > > > Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can I buy
            > some
            > > > if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
            > > >
            > > > Faithe
            > > >
            > > Yo Faithe,
            > > You missed the point by being so literal, but
            > > your perspective on this somewhat reminds me
            > > of this Nasrudin story:
            > > Our Mullah Nasruddin took all his savings and went
            > > to buy a shirt. All eyes and ears he entered a
            > > tailor's shop, was measured and told: "Will you
            > > be back in a week? God willing - your shirt will
            > > be finished." The week was an exercise in patience,
            > > which duly passed and our hero returned to the tailor: "Unfortunately,
            > there's been a delay. But - God
            > > willing - your shirt will be ready tomorrow."
            > > Nasrudin returned the next day. "I am sorry" he
            > > was greeted "just a few more stiches, a few more...
            > > Pray be back tomorrow and - God willing - it
            > > will be ready."
            > > "And " was the vexed Mullah heard to say
            > > "how long will it take, if we leave God out of it?"
            > >
            > > So, perhaps believing in God or Grace, or anything
            > > similar will not get your shirt made, or your crops to
            > > come to harvest, but, as Sri Mahararaj Nisargadatta said
            > > "Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not
            > > be convinced that effort will take you nowhere.
            > > The self is so self-confident that unless it is
            > > totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal
            > > conviction is not enough."
            > >
            > > As for me, I feel at One with another Kir Li Molari
            > > statement:
            > > "There's only one rule in this game – Thy will be done!"
            > > And that refers to all and everything, especially
            > > Enlightenment (or whatever you want to label IT) being
            > > a product of Grace.
            > >
            > > Peace and blessings,
            > > Bob
            > >
            >


          • sean tremblay
            P.S. Bob I liked the Mullah Nesruddin story, I could have used that line in Afghanistan! ... From: sean tremblay Subject: Re: [Meditation
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 6, 2010
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              P.S. Bob
              I liked the Mullah Nesruddin story, I could have used that line in Afghanistan!

              --- On Tue, 4/6/10, sean tremblay <bethjams9@...> wrote:

              From: sean tremblay <bethjams9@...>
              Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari
              To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 8:01 AM

               

              THY is first cause, the will that begets manifestation, it could be seen as intentione human being unlike a dog or cat can look at a hill top and imagine a house, he can then imagine
              blue shutters and white siding, he can create in his mind every possible detail, this is THY Will, and then the human can gather the necessary materials and actually manifest this house, he can make it a reality from thought form to physical(some of you please avoid the urge to get all nitnoid about which form is really real, it's cliche and annoying) As I was saying the thought becomes manifest this is how in my opinion we are Made In Gods Image, it is the ability to call forth what is manifest what is potential and make it manifest, THY is god Gods will be done, THY Kingdom come-which means to actually realize and perceive the world as it really is, the problem with being made in gods image is that we can impose our will on what is already made manifest, this imposition of values and judgments causes confusion and pain and all kinds of problems/falsehood.  If you have a problem with the word God as some people do then think of God as first cause, because as far as we know everything came from something
              In the beginning was the word
              OM
               
              --- On Mon, 4/5/10, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:

              From: medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
              Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari
              To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 3:03 PM

               

              "tarah513" <faithearden@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Bob.
              >
              > Thanks for your reply.
              >
              > I have a penchant for reading and comprehending as the words are
              > spoken/written. I take the meaning head-on. That is just the way I am.
              > Having been a business leader, I was entrusted to communicate clearly,
              > concisely and with no "double meaning". Perhaps we would have less
              > problems with meditation, spiritual & religious speakings if it was
              > either spoken in the same manner, or, if silence just prevaled on the
              > topic if words could not do it justice.
              >
              > Reference "Thy will be done"...I am VERY serious when I ask this
              > question...exactly who is this "thy"? I could never figure it out.
              >
              > Faithe
              >
              Yo Faithe,
              "Thy will be done" is from the bible (Matthew 6:9-13)
              "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
              and for me, this goes perfectly with life experience.
              The Big "THY in the sky/heart"/" God" is what is
              being referred to here. An example of what that
              is about is the reality that you can't be sure you won't
              fall on your face when you get up from reading this,
              can you? This is where the idea that everything
              is just God's will being acted out comes in to play.
              And this can segue into interesting inner enqueries
              that are effective meditative exercises. For example,
              do we really have free will, or is everything just
              destiny? Are we capable of "doing" or do things just
              happen? What about Karma? Reincarnation? Good
              intentions? And so on and so on. Another ? I especially
              like is the admonition to obey the 1st commandment, which
              says to put no other god before God. Wouldn't that
              mean that if we are thinking about anything but God
              we are putting that thing/idea/feeling ahead of GOD?
              And if we obey all of the other 612 commandments
              (Thou shalt's/Thou shalt not's) in the old testement,
              but not the 1st, would we still be considered a sinner?
              Anyway, these are all parts of common religion
              based questions that so many of us look only outside our
              Self to answer, while Meditation points to us to look
              inside for all the spiritual answers we need. And if
              we do, maybe that's because it was "Thy's" will to do so!
              Peace and blessings,
              Bob

              > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, medit8ionsociety
              > <no_reply@> wrote:
              > >
              > > "tarah513" faithearden@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, medit8ionsociety
              > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
              > > > > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
              > > > > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
              > > > > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
              > > > >
              > > > HA-HA-HA!!!
              > > >
              > > > I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer. Let me
              > tell
              > > > you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is the
              > growing!
              > > > Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing, herbicides,
              > > > insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT grow
              > > > "effortlessly" .
              > > >
              > > > Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can I buy
              > some
              > > > if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
              > > >
              > > > Faithe
              > > >
              > > Yo Faithe,
              > > You missed the point by being so literal, but
              > > your perspective on this somewhat reminds me
              > > of this Nasrudin story:
              > > Our Mullah Nasruddin took all his savings and went
              > > to buy a shirt. All eyes and ears he entered a
              > > tailor's shop, was measured and told: "Will you
              > > be back in a week? God willing - your shirt will
              > > be finished." The week was an exercise in patience,
              > > which duly passed and our hero returned to the tailor: "Unfortunately,
              > there's been a delay. But - God
              > > willing - your shirt will be ready tomorrow."
              > > Nasrudin returned the next day. "I am sorry" he
              > > was greeted "just a few more stiches, a few more...
              > > Pray be back tomorrow and - God willing - it
              > > will be ready."
              > > "And " was the vexed Mullah heard to say
              > > "how long will it take, if we leave God out of it?"
              > >
              > > So, perhaps believing in God or Grace, or anything
              > > similar will not get your shirt made, or your crops to
              > > come to harvest, but, as Sri Mahararaj Nisargadatta said
              > > "Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not
              > > be convinced that effort will take you nowhere.
              > > The self is so self-confident that unless it is
              > > totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal
              > > conviction is not enough."
              > >
              > > As for me, I feel at One with another Kir Li Molari
              > > statement:
              > > "There's only one rule in this game – Thy will be done!"
              > > And that refers to all and everything, especially
              > > Enlightenment (or whatever you want to label IT) being
              > > a product of Grace.
              > >
              > > Peace and blessings,
              > > Bob
              > >
              >



            • WestWindWood
              Meditation is a lot like farming. You have to have faith that if you make the effort to plant the seed that this is better than barren ground. First you have
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 6, 2010
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                Meditation is a lot like farming. You have to have faith that if you make the effort to plant the seed that this is better than barren ground. First you have to get the ground ready, start fresh by plowing all the weeds under, try to live the best that you can by giving up bad behavior, remove weeds that suck away from the good growth that is to come. You also have to balance the fertilizer to get the best yield possible. Then you plant the seeds; you make the commitment to this kind of future. There are different kinds of good seed, you just have to look around at what you have to work with, your soil and climate, and find the path, the technique, that works best for you. And now there is the weather, you just have to trust the process and take whatever comes. Maybe you can say the weather is effortless because you have no control over it, but at any rate just offer up the problems that occur, weather, and accept what comes.  So you trust the weather, and because of you past karma what ever happens happens, but it will be a learning experience. You keep trying and eventually, if not this year, then next year, you come out and notice that your field has all this new growth and you suddenly see this wonderful vitality; however, now with enlightenment, the wonderment of this vital energy, the work begins. You have studied agriculture, you are not going by guess here, and you know that you have to get to work in earnest and weed that which takes away from the good plantings; also look for insects, like bad friends that take away from your good efforts. Eventually your notice with the harvest that life is getting better, that yes there were problems along the way, but those problems seem like some distant worry that no longer is of concern. Maybe you die and become reincarnated to new land or maybe you work really hard on this particular farm. You have become richer, but now you have to keep at it, do the cycle over and over and become better and better over time. Eventually you become one with the vitality that comes from working the land.

                --- On Sun, 4/4/10, tarah513 <faithearden@...> wrote:

                From: tarah513 <faithearden@...>
                Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari
                To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 5:20 PM

                 


                --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, medit8ionsociety
                <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
                > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
                > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
                > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
                >
                HA-HA-HA!!!

                I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer. Let me tell
                you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is the growing!
                Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing, herbicides,
                insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT grow
                "effortlessly" .

                Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can I buy some
                if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.

                Faithe


              • sean tremblay
                Like it ... From: WestWindWood Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Faithe s Comment on Farming and Meditation To:
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 6, 2010
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                  Like it

                  --- On Tue, 4/6/10, WestWindWood <westwindwood2003@...> wrote:

                  From: WestWindWood <westwindwood2003@...>
                  Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Faithe's Comment on Farming and Meditation
                  To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 12:31 PM

                   

                  Meditation is a lot like farming. You have to have faith that if you make the effort to plant the seed that this is better than barren ground. First you have to get the ground ready, start fresh by plowing all the weeds under, try to live the best that you can by giving up bad behavior, remove weeds that suck away from the good growth that is to come. You also have to balance the fertilizer to get the best yield possible. Then you plant the seeds; you make the commitment to this kind of future. There are different kinds of good seed, you just have to look around at what you have to work with, your soil and climate, and find the path, the technique, that works best for you. And now there is the weather, you just have to trust the process and take whatever comes. Maybe you can say the weather is effortless because you have no control over it, but at any rate just offer up the problems that occur, weather, and accept what comes.  So you trust the weather, and because of you past karma what ever happens happens, but it will be a learning experience. You keep trying and eventually, if not this year, then next year, you come out and notice that your field has all this new growth and you suddenly see this wonderful vitality; however, now with enlightenment, the wonderment of this vital energy, the work begins. You have studied agriculture, you are not going by guess here, and you know that you have to get to work in earnest and weed that which takes away from the good plantings; also look for insects, like bad friends that take away from your good efforts. Eventually your notice with the harvest that life is getting better, that yes there were problems along the way, but those problems seem like some distant worry that no longer is of concern. Maybe you die and become reincarnated to new land or maybe you work really hard on this particular farm. You have become richer, but now you have to keep at it, do the cycle over and over and become better and better over time. Eventually you become one with the vitality that comes from working the land.

                  --- On Sun, 4/4/10, tarah513 <faithearden@ earthlink. net> wrote:


                  From: tarah513 <faithearden@ earthlink. net>
                  Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari
                  To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
                  Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 5:20 PM

                   


                  --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, medit8ionsociety
                  <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
                  > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
                  > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
                  > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
                  >
                  HA-HA-HA!!!

                  I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer. Let me tell
                  you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is the growing!
                  Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing, herbicides,
                  insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT grow
                  "effortlessly" .

                  Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can I buy some
                  if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.

                  Faithe



                • Papajeff
                  Faithe, Nice analogy. I started to perspire just reading it. I grew up on a farm and remember the weeding in the heat of summer and harvesting by hand as a lot
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 6, 2010
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                    Faithe,

                    Nice analogy. I started to
                    perspire just reading it.

                    I grew up on a farm and
                    remember the weeding in the
                    heat of summer and harvesting
                    by hand as a lot of work. I
                    also remember how delicious
                    the fresh fruits and veggies
                    tasted - just from the garden.

                    Still, the seed, once planted,
                    does grow effortlessly. Clearing
                    the way and keeping it clear
                    in order for the crop to reach
                    its fullest potential (of
                    enlightenment) is the work on
                    our part, as you've so nicely
                    stated.

                    Meditating is much easier than
                    weeding.

                    Thanks.

                    Jeff



                    --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, WestWindWood <westwindwood2003@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Meditation is a lot like farming. You have to have faith that if you make the effort to plant the seed that this is better than barren ground. First you have to get the ground ready, start fresh by plowing all the weeds under, try to live the best that you can by giving up bad behavior, remove weeds that suck away from the good growth that is to come. You also have to balance the fertilizer to get the best yield possible. Then you plant the seeds; you make the commitment to this kind of future. There are different kinds of good seed, you just have to look around at what you have to work with, your soil and climate, and find the path, the technique, that works best for you. And now there is the weather, you just have to trust the process and take whatever comes. Maybe you can say the weather is effortless because you have no control over it, but at any rate just offer up the problems that occur, weather, and accept what comes.  So you trust the weather,
                    > and because of you past karma what ever happens happens, but it will be a learning experience. You keep trying and eventually, if not this year, then next year, you come out and notice that your field has all this new growth and you suddenly see this wonderful vitality; however, now with enlightenment, the wonderment of this vital energy, the work begins. You have studied agriculture, you are not going by guess here, and you know that you have to get to work in earnest and weed that which takes away from the good plantings; also look for insects, like bad friends that take away from your good efforts. Eventually your notice with the harvest that life is getting better, that yes there were problems along the way, but those problems seem like some distant worry that no longer is of concern. Maybe you die and become reincarnated to new land or maybe you work really hard on this particular farm. You have become richer, but now you have to keep at it, do the
                    > cycle over and over and become better and better over time. Eventually you become one with the vitality that comes from working the land.
                    >
                    > --- On Sun, 4/4/10, tarah513 <faithearden@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: tarah513 <faithearden@...>
                    > Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari
                    > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 5:20 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, medit8ionsociety
                    > <no_reply@ .> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
                    > > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
                    > > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
                    > > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
                    > >
                    > HA-HA-HA!!!
                    >
                    > I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer. Let me tell
                    > you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is the growing!
                    > Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing, herbicides,
                    > insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT grow
                    > "effortlessly" .
                    >
                    > Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can I buy some
                    > if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
                    >
                    > Faithe
                    >
                  • cosmic_yogi1
                    Inquiring Faithe, I greet you with love and understanding. The Zen have asked--how can We truly understand verbally? If We go to the words of describing this
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 6, 2010
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                      Inquiring Faithe,

                      I greet you with love and understanding.

                      The Zen have asked--how can We truly understand verbally? If We go to
                      the words of describing this or that, how can We truly know it?

                      Bob has stated in previous correspondences that "You missed the point by
                      being so literal".

                      This brings to mind the infamous Zen Koan of 'Emptying your cup'.

                      Paraphrasing-- Your cup is too full!--'You are full of your opinions and
                      speculations. How can you know the Zen unless you empty your cup?'

                      Regarding your problem with what i have offered, i recall several
                      metaphores: Is a drop of water from the ocean still the ocean? Hot and
                      Cold is still temperature. Yin and Yang is still the Dao.

                      Great Masters, Saints and Avatars alike have said that 'We are all
                      inexstricably bound and linked to the source'. Life has been the
                      greates revealer of this truth. Hence, the 'connectedness to the ALL'.

                      As i continue to awake and observe on this journey, in meditation is
                      where i realize the 'connectedness to the ALL'. To 'remove' that idea
                      from meditation, i believe, misses the point.

                      In profound peace,

                      ONE


                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513"
                      <faithearden@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Dear Cosmic.
                      >
                      > Are you saying that you are "ONE" and that by your beingness along
                      that
                      > shows you represent unversality and are connected to the ALL?
                      >
                      > My problem with what you have offered is that saying their is a
                      > "connectedness to the ALL" is quite different from being "ALL".
                      >
                      > Where this is leading is that in meditation, once the connectedness
                      idea
                      > is removed, what then can be realized?
                      >
                      > Faithe
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                      > hanifshekhem@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Yo Faithe,
                      > > 'ONE' is a symbol representing the universality and connectedness to
                      > the ALL.
                      > >
                      > > ONE
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513"
                      > faithearden@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Cosmic.
                      > > >
                      > > > What does your name "ONE" mean...or is there no meaning intended
                      and
                      > it
                      > > > is just a label?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks in advance.
                      > > >
                      > > > Faithe
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                      > > > <hanifshekhem@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Beloved,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Beautifully stated!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ONE
                      > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      > medit8ionsociety
                      > > > no_reply@ wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > "tarah513" <faithearden@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      > > > medit8ionsociety
                      > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
                      > > > > > > > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
                      > > > > > > > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
                      > > > > > > > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > HA-HA-HA!!!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer.
                      Let
                      > me
                      > > > tell
                      > > > > > > you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is
                      the
                      > > > growing!
                      > > > > > > Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing,
                      > herbicides,
                      > > > > > > insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT
                      grow
                      > > > > > > "effortlessly".
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can
                      I
                      > buy
                      > > > some
                      > > > > > > if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Faithe
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > Yo Faithe,
                      > > > > > You missed the point by being so literal, but
                      > > > > > your perspective on this somewhat reminds me
                      > > > > > of this Nasrudin story:
                      > > > > > Our Mullah Nasruddin took all his savings and went
                      > > > > > to buy a shirt. All eyes and ears he entered a
                      > > > > > tailor's shop, was measured and told: "Will you
                      > > > > > be back in a week? God willing - your shirt will
                      > > > > > be finished." The week was an exercise in patience,
                      > > > > > which duly passed and our hero returned to the tailor:
                      > > > "Unfortunately, there's been a delay. But - God
                      > > > > > willing - your shirt will be ready tomorrow."
                      > > > > > Nasrudin returned the next day. "I am sorry" he
                      > > > > > was greeted "just a few more stiches, a few more...
                      > > > > > Pray be back tomorrow and - God willing - it
                      > > > > > will be ready."
                      > > > > > "And " was the vexed Mullah heard to say
                      > > > > > "how long will it take, if we leave God out of it?"
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > So, perhaps believing in God or Grace, or anything
                      > > > > > similar will not get your shirt made, or your crops to
                      > > > > > come to harvest, but, as Sri Mahararaj Nisargadatta said
                      > > > > > "Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not
                      > > > > > be convinced that effort will take you nowhere.
                      > > > > > The self is so self-confident that unless it is
                      > > > > > totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal
                      > > > > > conviction is not enough."
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > As for me, I feel at One with another Kir Li Molari
                      > > > > > statement:
                      > > > > > "There's only one rule in this game – Thy will be done!"
                      > > > > > And that refers to all and everything, especially
                      > > > > > Enlightenment (or whatever you want to label IT) being
                      > > > > > a product of Grace.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Peace and blessings,
                      > > > > > Bob
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Bruce Morgen
                      Dear Yogiji -- There are no ideas per se in meditation. The meditative state is the perceptual tabula rasa upon which all that comes and goes or arises and
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 6, 2010
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                        Dear Yogiji --

                        There are no ideas per se in
                        meditation. The meditative
                        state is the perceptual tabula
                        rasa upon which all that comes
                        and goes or arises and dies is
                        written, only to be erased and
                        supplanted by still more
                        aspects of the world of forms.

                        By holding on to the the idea
                        of Oneness, one is certainly
                        filling the perceptual cup
                        with yet another preconception
                        -- remember, the Tao that can
                        be spoken of (that is,
                        expressed as an idea) is not
                        the true Tao.

                        Hiya, Faithe!

                        Much love -- Bruce



                        On 4/6/2010 6:16 PM, cosmic_yogi1 wrote:
                        > Inquiring Faithe,
                        >
                        > I greet you with love and understanding.
                        >
                        > The Zen have asked--how can We truly understand verbally? If We go to
                        > the words of describing this or that, how can We truly know it?
                        >
                        > Bob has stated in previous correspondences that "You missed the point by
                        > being so literal".
                        >
                        > This brings to mind the infamous Zen Koan of 'Emptying your cup'.
                        >
                        > Paraphrasing-- Your cup is too full!--'You are full of your opinions and
                        > speculations. How can you know the Zen unless you empty your cup?'
                        >
                        > Regarding your problem with what i have offered, i recall several
                        > metaphores: Is a drop of water from the ocean still the ocean? Hot and
                        > Cold is still temperature. Yin and Yang is still the Dao.
                        >
                        > Great Masters, Saints and Avatars alike have said that 'We are all
                        > inexstricably bound and linked to the source'. Life has been the
                        > greates revealer of this truth. Hence, the 'connectedness to the ALL'.
                        >
                        > As i continue to awake and observe on this journey, in meditation is
                        > where i realize the 'connectedness to the ALL'. To 'remove' that idea
                        > from meditation, i believe, misses the point.
                        >
                        > In profound peace,
                        >
                        > ONE
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513"
                        > <faithearden@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Dear Cosmic.
                        >>
                        >> Are you saying that you are "ONE" and that by your beingness along
                        >>
                        > that
                        >
                        >> shows you represent unversality and are connected to the ALL?
                        >>
                        >> My problem with what you have offered is that saying their is a
                        >> "connectedness to the ALL" is quite different from being "ALL".
                        >>
                        >> Where this is leading is that in meditation, once the connectedness
                        >>
                        > idea
                        >
                        >> is removed, what then can be realized?
                        >>
                        >> Faithe
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                        >> hanifshekhem@ wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> Yo Faithe,
                        >>> 'ONE' is a symbol representing the universality and connectedness to
                        >>>
                        >> the ALL.
                        >>
                        >>> ONE
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513"
                        >>>
                        >> faithearden@ wrote:
                        >>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Hi Cosmic.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> What does your name "ONE" mean...or is there no meaning intended
                        >>>>
                        > and
                        >
                        >> it
                        >>
                        >>>> is just a label?
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Thanks in advance.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Faithe
                        >>>>
                        >>>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                        >>>> <hanifshekhem@> wrote:
                        >>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Beloved,
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Beautifully stated!
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> ONE
                        >>>>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        >>>>>
                        >> medit8ionsociety
                        >>
                        >>>> no_reply@ wrote:
                        >>>>
                        >>>>>> "tarah513"<faithearden@> wrote:
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>> medit8ionsociety
                        >>>>
                        >>>>>>> <no_reply@> wrote:
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>> By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
                        >>>>>>>> makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
                        >>>>>>>> the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
                        >>>>>>>> the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> HA-HA-HA!!!
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer.
                        >>>>>>>
                        > Let
                        >
                        >> me
                        >>
                        >>>> tell
                        >>>>
                        >>>>>>> you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is
                        >>>>>>>
                        > the
                        >
                        >>>> growing!
                        >>>>
                        >>>>>>> Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing,
                        >>>>>>>
                        >> herbicides,
                        >>
                        >>>>>>> insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT
                        >>>>>>>
                        > grow
                        >
                        >>>>>>> "effortlessly".
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can
                        >>>>>>>
                        > I
                        >
                        >> buy
                        >>
                        >>>> some
                        >>>>
                        >>>>>>> if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>> Faithe
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>>>
                        >>>>>> Yo Faithe,
                        >>>>>> You missed the point by being so literal, but
                        >>>>>> your perspective on this somewhat reminds me
                        >>>>>> of this Nasrudin story:
                        >>>>>> Our Mullah Nasruddin took all his savings and went
                        >>>>>> to buy a shirt. All eyes and ears he entered a
                        >>>>>> tailor's shop, was measured and told: "Will you
                        >>>>>> be back in a week? God willing - your shirt will
                        >>>>>> be finished." The week was an exercise in patience,
                        >>>>>> which duly passed and our hero returned to the tailor:
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>> "Unfortunately, there's been a delay. But - God
                        >>>>
                        >>>>>> willing - your shirt will be ready tomorrow."
                        >>>>>> Nasrudin returned the next day. "I am sorry" he
                        >>>>>> was greeted "just a few more stiches, a few more...
                        >>>>>> Pray be back tomorrow and - God willing - it
                        >>>>>> will be ready."
                        >>>>>> "And " was the vexed Mullah heard to say
                        >>>>>> "how long will it take, if we leave God out of it?"
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> So, perhaps believing in God or Grace, or anything
                        >>>>>> similar will not get your shirt made, or your crops to
                        >>>>>> come to harvest, but, as Sri Mahararaj Nisargadatta said
                        >>>>>> "Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not
                        >>>>>> be convinced that effort will take you nowhere.
                        >>>>>> The self is so self-confident that unless it is
                        >>>>>> totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal
                        >>>>>> conviction is not enough."
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> As for me, I feel at One with another Kir Li Molari
                        >>>>>> statement:
                        >>>>>> "There's only one rule in this game – Thy will be done!"
                        >>>>>> And that refers to all and everything, especially
                        >>>>>> Enlightenment (or whatever you want to label IT) being
                        >>>>>> a product of Grace.
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>> Peace and blessings,
                        >>>>>> Bob
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>>
                      • cosmic_yogi1
                        Yo Bruce, i stand corrected---All perceptions are illusion. Thank you for sharing much metta, ONE
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 6, 2010
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                          Yo Bruce,

                          i stand corrected---All perceptions are illusion.

                          Thank you for sharing

                          much metta,

                          ONE

                          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513" <faithearden@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear Cosmic.
                          >
                          > Are you saying that you are "ONE" and that by your beingness along that
                          > shows you represent unversality and are connected to the ALL?
                          >
                          > My problem with what you have offered is that saying their is a
                          > "connectedness to the ALL" is quite different from being "ALL".
                          >
                          > Where this is leading is that in meditation, once the connectedness idea
                          > is removed, what then can be realized?
                          >
                          > Faithe
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                          > <hanifshekhem@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Yo Faithe,
                          > > 'ONE' is a symbol representing the universality and connectedness to
                          > the ALL.
                          > >
                          > > ONE
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513"
                          > faithearden@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Cosmic.
                          > > >
                          > > > What does your name "ONE" mean...or is there no meaning intended and
                          > it
                          > > > is just a label?
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks in advance.
                          > > >
                          > > > Faithe
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                          > > > <hanifshekhem@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Beloved,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Beautifully stated!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ONE
                          > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                          > medit8ionsociety
                          > > > no_reply@ wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "tarah513" <faithearden@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                          > > > medit8ionsociety
                          > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
                          > > > > > > > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
                          > > > > > > > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
                          > > > > > > > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > HA-HA-HA!!!
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer. Let
                          > me
                          > > > tell
                          > > > > > > you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is the
                          > > > growing!
                          > > > > > > Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing,
                          > herbicides,
                          > > > > > > insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT grow
                          > > > > > > "effortlessly".
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can I
                          > buy
                          > > > some
                          > > > > > > if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Faithe
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > Yo Faithe,
                          > > > > > You missed the point by being so literal, but
                          > > > > > your perspective on this somewhat reminds me
                          > > > > > of this Nasrudin story:
                          > > > > > Our Mullah Nasruddin took all his savings and went
                          > > > > > to buy a shirt. All eyes and ears he entered a
                          > > > > > tailor's shop, was measured and told: "Will you
                          > > > > > be back in a week? God willing - your shirt will
                          > > > > > be finished." The week was an exercise in patience,
                          > > > > > which duly passed and our hero returned to the tailor:
                          > > > "Unfortunately, there's been a delay. But - God
                          > > > > > willing - your shirt will be ready tomorrow."
                          > > > > > Nasrudin returned the next day. "I am sorry" he
                          > > > > > was greeted "just a few more stiches, a few more...
                          > > > > > Pray be back tomorrow and - God willing - it
                          > > > > > will be ready."
                          > > > > > "And " was the vexed Mullah heard to say
                          > > > > > "how long will it take, if we leave God out of it?"
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > So, perhaps believing in God or Grace, or anything
                          > > > > > similar will not get your shirt made, or your crops to
                          > > > > > come to harvest, but, as Sri Mahararaj Nisargadatta said
                          > > > > > "Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not
                          > > > > > be convinced that effort will take you nowhere.
                          > > > > > The self is so self-confident that unless it is
                          > > > > > totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal
                          > > > > > conviction is not enough."
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > As for me, I feel at One with another Kir Li Molari
                          > > > > > statement:
                          > > > > > "There's only one rule in this game – Thy will be done!"
                          > > > > > And that refers to all and everything, especially
                          > > > > > Enlightenment (or whatever you want to label IT) being
                          > > > > > a product of Grace.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Peace and blessings,
                          > > > > > Bob
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • hanif sashekhem
                          Peace and Love Bruce, i apprecilove your wisdom in respect towards Oneness, however i must ask you---is your understanding of the meditative state that you
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 6, 2010
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                            Peace and Love Bruce,
                             
                            i apprecilove your wisdom in respect towards Oneness, however i must ask you---is your understanding of the meditative state that you describe also an idea?
                            It seems that We all suffer from the illusions of our perceptions:)
                             
                            ONE
                             
                            > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: editor@...
                            > Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:52:49 -0400
                            > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Practice Makes Perfect by Kir Li Molari
                            >
                            > Dear Yogiji --
                            >
                            > There are no ideas per se in
                            > meditation. The meditative
                            > state is the perceptual tabula
                            > rasa upon which all that comes
                            > and goes or arises and dies is
                            > written, only to be erased and
                            > supplanted by still more
                            > aspects of the world of forms.
                            >
                            > By holding on to the the idea
                            > of Oneness, one is certainly
                            > filling the perceptual cup
                            > with yet another preconception
                            > -- remember, the Tao that can
                            > be spoken of (that is,
                            > expressed as an idea) is not
                            > the true Tao.
                            >
                            > Hiya, Faithe!
                            >
                            > Much love -- Bruce
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On 4/6/2010 6:16 PM, cosmic_yogi1 wrote:
                            > > Inquiring Faithe,
                            > >
                            > > I greet you with love and understanding.
                            > >
                            > > The Zen have asked--how can We truly understand verbally? If We go to
                            > > the words of describing this or that, how can We truly know it?
                            > >
                            > > Bob has stated in previous correspondences that "You missed the point by
                            > > being so literal".
                            > >
                            > > This brings to mind the infamous Zen Koan of 'Emptying your cup'.
                            > >
                            > > Paraphrasing-- Your cup is too full!--'You are full of your opinions and
                            > > speculations. How can you know the Zen unless you empty your cup?'
                            > >
                            > > Regarding your problem with what i have offered, i recall several
                            > > metaphores: Is a drop of water from the ocean still the ocean? Hot and
                            > > Cold is still temperature. Yin and Yang is still the Dao.
                            > >
                            > > Great Masters, Saints and Avatars alike have said that 'We are all
                            > > inexstricably bound and linked to the source'. Life has been the
                            > > greates revealer of this truth. Hence, the 'connectedness to the ALL'.
                            > >
                            > > As i continue to awake and observe on this journey, in meditation is
                            > > where i realize the 'connectedness to the ALL'. To 'remove' that idea
                            > > from meditation, i believe, misses the point.
                            > >
                            > > In profound peace,
                            > >
                            > > ONE
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513"
                            > > <faithearden@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> Dear Cosmic.
                            > >>
                            > >> Are you saying that you are "ONE" and that by your beingness along
                            > >>
                            > > that
                            > >
                            > >> shows you represent unversality and are connected to the ALL?
                            > >>
                            > >> My problem with what you have offered is that saying their is a
                            > >> "connectedness to the ALL" is quite different from being "ALL".
                            > >>
                            > >> Where this is leading is that in meditation, once the connectedness
                            > >>
                            > > idea
                            > >
                            > >> is removed, what then can be realized?
                            > >>
                            > >> Faithe
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                            > >> hanifshekhem@ wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>> Yo Faithe,
                            > >>> 'ONE' is a symbol representing the universality and connectedness to
                            > >>>
                            > >> the ALL.
                            > >>
                            > >>> ONE
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513"
                            > >>>
                            > >> faithearden@ wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Hi Cosmic.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> What does your name "ONE" mean...or is there no meaning intended
                            > >>>>
                            > > and
                            > >
                            > >> it
                            > >>
                            > >>>> is just a label?
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Thanks in advance.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Faithe
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                            > >>>> <hanifshekhem@> wrote:
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Beloved,
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Beautifully stated!
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> ONE
                            > >>>>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                            > >>>>>
                            > >> medit8ionsociety
                            > >>
                            > >>>> no_reply@ wrote:
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>>> "tarah513"<faithearden@> wrote:
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>> medit8ionsociety
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>>>> <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>> By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
                            > >>>>>>>> makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
                            > >>>>>>>> the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
                            > >>>>>>>> the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
                            > >>>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> HA-HA-HA!!!
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > > Let
                            > >
                            > >> me
                            > >>
                            > >>>> tell
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>>>> you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > > the
                            > >
                            > >>>> growing!
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing,
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >> herbicides,
                            > >>
                            > >>>>>>> insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > > grow
                            > >
                            > >>>>>>> "effortlessly".
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > > I
                            > >
                            > >> buy
                            > >>
                            > >>>> some
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>>>> if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Faithe
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> Yo Faithe,
                            > >>>>>> You missed the point by being so literal, but
                            > >>>>>> your perspective on this somewhat reminds me
                            > >>>>>> of this Nasrudin story:
                            > >>>>>> Our Mullah Nasruddin took all his savings and went
                            > >>>>>> to buy a shirt. All eyes and ears he entered a
                            > >>>>>> tailor's shop, was measured and told: "Will you
                            > >>>>>> be back in a week? God willing - your shirt will
                            > >>>>>> be finished." The week was an exercise in patience,
                            > >>>>>> which duly passed and our hero returned to the tailor:
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>> "Unfortunately, there's been a delay. But - God
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>>> willing - your shirt will be ready tomorrow."
                            > >>>>>> Nasrudin returned the next day. "I am sorry" he
                            > >>>>>> was greeted "just a few more stiches, a few more...
                            > >>>>>> Pray be back tomorrow and - God willing - it
                            > >>>>>> will be ready."
                            > >>>>>> "And " was the vexed Mullah heard to say
                            > >>>>>> "how long will it take, if we leave God out of it?"
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> So, perhaps believing in God or Grace, or anything
                            > >>>>>> similar will not get your shirt made, or your crops to
                            > >>>>>> come to harvest, but, as Sri Mahararaj Nisargadatta said
                            > >>>>>> "Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not
                            > >>>>>> be convinced that effort will take you nowhere.
                            > >>>>>> The self is so self-confident that unless it is
                            > >>>>>> totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal
                            > >>>>>> conviction is not enough."
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> As for me, I feel at One with another Kir Li Molari
                            > >>>>>> statement:
                            > >>>>>> "There's only one rule in this game – Thy will be done!"
                            > >>>>>> And that refers to all and everything, especially
                            > >>>>>> Enlightenment (or whatever you want to label IT) being
                            > >>>>>> a product of Grace.
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> Peace and blessings,
                            > >>>>>> Bob
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
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                          • Papajeff
                            Faithe, Beyond connectedness is the realization put so beautifully by Ramana Maharshi: The very form of God if Love. So it s One, in the matrix of Love. If
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 7, 2010
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                              Faithe,

                              Beyond "connectedness" is the
                              realization put so beautifully
                              by Ramana Maharshi:

                              "The very form of God if Love."

                              So it's One, in the matrix of Love.

                              If the realization or understanding
                              includes merely the connectness
                              or sense of Oneness...but not
                              the God (Love)-Realization, the
                              realization is not on the
                              level of the jnani yogi - there
                              is no Knowing.

                              Those who mistake the Oneness
                              for fully awakened tend to
                              be the one's who parrot the
                              half-baked teachings about,
                              "nothing to realize, everyone's
                              already enlightened, just get
                              on with your life"...pablum.

                              One Love,

                              Jeff

                              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513" <faithearden@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Cosmic.
                              >
                              > Are you saying that you are "ONE" and that by your beingness along that
                              > shows you represent unversality and are connected to the ALL?
                              >
                              > My problem with what you have offered is that saying their is a
                              > "connectedness to the ALL" is quite different from being "ALL".
                              >
                              > Where this is leading is that in meditation, once the connectedness idea
                              > is removed, what then can be realized?
                              >
                              > Faithe
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                              > <hanifshekhem@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Yo Faithe,
                              > > 'ONE' is a symbol representing the universality and connectedness to
                              > the ALL.
                              > >
                              > > ONE
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513"
                              > faithearden@ wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi Cosmic.
                              > > >
                              > > > What does your name "ONE" mean...or is there no meaning intended and
                              > it
                              > > > is just a label?
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks in advance.
                              > > >
                              > > > Faithe
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                              > > > <hanifshekhem@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Beloved,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Beautifully stated!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ONE
                              > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                              > medit8ionsociety
                              > > > no_reply@ wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > "tarah513" <faithearden@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                              > > > medit8ionsociety
                              > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
                              > > > > > > > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
                              > > > > > > > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
                              > > > > > > > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > HA-HA-HA!!!
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer. Let
                              > me
                              > > > tell
                              > > > > > > you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is the
                              > > > growing!
                              > > > > > > Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing,
                              > herbicides,
                              > > > > > > insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT grow
                              > > > > > > "effortlessly".
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can I
                              > buy
                              > > > some
                              > > > > > > if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Faithe
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > Yo Faithe,
                              > > > > > You missed the point by being so literal, but
                              > > > > > your perspective on this somewhat reminds me
                              > > > > > of this Nasrudin story:
                              > > > > > Our Mullah Nasruddin took all his savings and went
                              > > > > > to buy a shirt. All eyes and ears he entered a
                              > > > > > tailor's shop, was measured and told: "Will you
                              > > > > > be back in a week? God willing - your shirt will
                              > > > > > be finished." The week was an exercise in patience,
                              > > > > > which duly passed and our hero returned to the tailor:
                              > > > "Unfortunately, there's been a delay. But - God
                              > > > > > willing - your shirt will be ready tomorrow."
                              > > > > > Nasrudin returned the next day. "I am sorry" he
                              > > > > > was greeted "just a few more stiches, a few more...
                              > > > > > Pray be back tomorrow and - God willing - it
                              > > > > > will be ready."
                              > > > > > "And " was the vexed Mullah heard to say
                              > > > > > "how long will it take, if we leave God out of it?"
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > So, perhaps believing in God or Grace, or anything
                              > > > > > similar will not get your shirt made, or your crops to
                              > > > > > come to harvest, but, as Sri Mahararaj Nisargadatta said
                              > > > > > "Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not
                              > > > > > be convinced that effort will take you nowhere.
                              > > > > > The self is so self-confident that unless it is
                              > > > > > totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal
                              > > > > > conviction is not enough."
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > As for me, I feel at One with another Kir Li Molari
                              > > > > > statement:
                              > > > > > "There's only one rule in this game – Thy will be done!"
                              > > > > > And that refers to all and everything, especially
                              > > > > > Enlightenment (or whatever you want to label IT) being
                              > > > > > a product of Grace.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Peace and blessings,
                              > > > > > Bob
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • cosmic_yogi1
                              Faithe, As the drop of water is to the ocean-that is what Oneness is. The essence of the drop is every bit the essence of the totality. All that we hold dear
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 7, 2010
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                                Faithe,

                                As the drop of water is to the ocean-that is what Oneness is.  The essence of the drop is every bit the essence of the totality.

                                All that we hold dear to our hearts, the things our soul yearns for-we do not have to give it up through the act of awakening!  Of course not, we recieve it by awakening!  This is the whole point.  Waking from this dream does not mean everything disappears.  It means everthing appears as it really is.  Life then is seen as a unified Whole, as Oneness.  Oneness knows only ONE.  In Oneness the puzzle has been made whole.  In Oneness there is no more good or bad, desirable or undesirable.  It is absolute fulfilment, completion, bliss, whatever we may call it.  It is a state of being beyond hope, for all hope is fulfilled.  We can not even faintly begin to describe the indescribable.  It can only be experienced.

                                ONE

                                 

                                 


                                --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "Papajeff" <jeff@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Faithe,
                                >
                                > Beyond "connectedness" is the
                                > realization put so beautifully
                                > by Ramana Maharshi:
                                >
                                > "The very form of God if Love."
                                >
                                > So it's One, in the matrix of Love.
                                >
                                > If the realization or understanding
                                > includes merely the connectness
                                > or sense of Oneness...but not
                                > the God (Love)-Realization, the
                                > realization is not on the
                                > level of the jnani yogi - there
                                > is no Knowing.
                                >
                                > Those who mistake the Oneness
                                > for fully awakened tend to
                                > be the one's who parrot the
                                > half-baked teachings about,
                                > "nothing to realize, everyone's
                                > already enlightened, just get
                                > on with your life"...pablum.
                                >
                                > One Love,
                                >
                                > Jeff
                                >
                                > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513" faithearden@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Dear Cosmic.
                                > >
                                > > Are you saying that you are "ONE" and that by your beingness along that
                                > > shows you represent unversality and are connected to the ALL?
                                > >
                                > > My problem with what you have offered is that saying their is a
                                > > "connectedness to the ALL" is quite different from being "ALL".
                                > >
                                > > Where this is leading is that in meditation, once the connectedness idea
                                > > is removed, what then can be realized?
                                > >
                                > > Faithe
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                                > > <hanifshekhem@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Yo Faithe,
                                > > > 'ONE' is a symbol representing the universality and connectedness to
                                > > the ALL.
                                > > >
                                > > > ONE
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "tarah513"
                                > > faithearden@ wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hi Cosmic.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > What does your name "ONE" mean...or is there no meaning intended and
                                > > it
                                > > > > is just a label?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thanks in advance.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Faithe
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "cosmic_yogi1"
                                > > > > <hanifshekhem@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Beloved,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Beautifully stated!
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > ONE
                                > > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                > > medit8ionsociety
                                > > > > no_reply@ wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > "tarah513" <faithearden@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                                > > > > medit8ionsociety
                                > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > By Grace alone effort is effortless. The farmer
                                > > > > > > > > makes an effort while planting his crop. By Grace,
                                > > > > > > > > the crop grows effortlessly. The farmer then reaps
                                > > > > > > > > the harvest and distributes it, and many are nurtured.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > HA-HA-HA!!!
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > I sure can tell that you are not a farmer! I am a farmer. Let
                                > > me
                                > > > > tell
                                > > > > > > > you, the EASY part is planting the crop. The tough part is the
                                > > > > growing!
                                > > > > > > > Once the seed changes to plant, watering, fertilizing,
                                > > herbicides,
                                > > > > > > > insecticides are constantly administered. A seed does NOT grow
                                > > > > > > > "effortlessly".
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Tell me more of this "grace" that has eluded me...where can I
                                > > buy
                                > > > > some
                                > > > > > > > if that is all that is needed for reaping a harvest.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Faithe
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Yo Faithe,
                                > > > > > > You missed the point by being so literal, but
                                > > > > > > your perspective on this somewhat reminds me
                                > > > > > > of this Nasrudin story:
                                > > > > > > Our Mullah Nasruddin took all his savings and went
                                > > > > > > to buy a shirt. All eyes and ears he entered a
                                > > > > > > tailor's shop, was measured and told: "Will you
                                > > > > > > be back in a week? God willing - your shirt will
                                > > > > > > be finished." The week was an exercise in patience,
                                > > > > > > which duly passed and our hero returned to the tailor:
                                > > > > "Unfortunately, there's been a delay. But - God
                                > > > > > > willing - your shirt will be ready tomorrow."
                                > > > > > > Nasrudin returned the next day. "I am sorry" he
                                > > > > > > was greeted "just a few more stiches, a few more...
                                > > > > > > Pray be back tomorrow and - God willing - it
                                > > > > > > will be ready."
                                > > > > > > "And " was the vexed Mullah heard to say
                                > > > > > > "how long will it take, if we leave God out of it?"
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > So, perhaps believing in God or Grace, or anything
                                > > > > > > similar will not get your shirt made, or your crops to
                                > > > > > > come to harvest, but, as Sri Mahararaj Nisargadatta said
                                > > > > > > "Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not
                                > > > > > > be convinced that effort will take you nowhere.
                                > > > > > > The self is so self-confident that unless it is
                                > > > > > > totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal
                                > > > > > > conviction is not enough."
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > As for me, I feel at One with another Kir Li Molari
                                > > > > > > statement:
                                > > > > > > "There's only one rule in this game – Thy will be done!"
                                > > > > > > And that refers to all and everything, especially
                                > > > > > > Enlightenment (or whatever you want to label IT) being
                                > > > > > > a product of Grace.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Peace and blessings,
                                > > > > > > Bob
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >

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