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Enlightenment Realities

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  • medit8ionsociety
    Question : Can the meditator be affected by physical disturbances during nirvikalpa samadhi? My friend and I disagree on this point. Ramana Maharshi : Both of
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 25, 2010
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      Question : Can the meditator be affected by
      physical disturbances during nirvikalpa samadhi?
      My friend and I disagree on this point.
      Ramana Maharshi : Both of you are right. One of
      you is referring to kevala and the other to sahaja
      samadhi. In both cases the mind is immersed in
      the bliss of the Self. In the former, physical
      movements may cause disturbance to the meditator,
      because the mind has not completely died out.
      It is still alive and can, as after deep sleep,
      at any moment be active again.

      It is compared to a bucket, which, although
      completely submerged under water, can be pulled
      out by a rope which is still attached to it. In
      sahaja, the mind has sunk completely into the
      Self, like the bucket which has got drowned in
      the depths of the well along with its rope. In
      sahaja there is nothing left to be disturbed or
      pulled back to the world. One's activities then
      resemble that of the child who sucks its mother's
      milk in sleep, and is hardly aware of the feeding.

      Question : How can one function in the world
      in such a state?
      Ramana Maharshi : One who accustoms himself
      naturally to meditation and enjoys the bliss
      of meditation will not lose his samadhi state
      whatever external work he does, whatever thoughts
      may come to him. That is sahaja nirvikalpa. Sahaja
      nirvikalpa is nasa [total destruction of the mind]
      whereas kevala nirvikalpa is laya [temporary
      abeyance of the mind].

      Those who are in the laya samadhi state will
      have to bring the mind back under control from
      time to time. If the mind is destroyed, as it
      is in sahaja samadhi, it will never sprout again.
      Whatever is done by such people is just incidental,
      they will never slide down from their high state.

      Those that are in the kevala nirvikalpa state
      are not realized, they are still seekers. Those
      who are in the sahaja nirvikalpa state are like
      a light in a windless place, or the ocean without
      waves; that is, there is no movement in them. They
      cannot find anything which is different from
      themselves. For those who do not reach that state,
      everything appears to be different from themselves.

      Question : Is the experience of kevala nirvikalpa
      the same as that of sahaja, although one comes down
      from it to the relative world?
      Ramana Maharshi : There is neither coming down nor
      going up - he who goes up and down is not real. In
      kevala nirvikalpa there is the mental bucket still
      in existence under the water, and it can be pulled
      out at any moment. Sahaja is like the river that
      has linked up with the ocean from which there is
      no return. Why do you ask all these questions? Go
      on practicing till you have the experience yourself.
    • sandeep chatterjee
      Hi Bob Sahaja is like the river that has linked up with the ocean from which there is no return. Yes. There is no further integration. Or the preparation of
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 26, 2010
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        Hi Bob


        Sahaja is like the river that has linked up with the ocean from which there is
        no return.


        Yes.

        There is no further integration.

        Or the preparation of integration.

        Or the need to prepare for integration.



        There is nothing "further".

        And in the apperception of "nothing further is the apperception that there was never a "past".



        In the absence of the further and the absence of the past....

        ......there is nothing like a present.


        Neither is time of any relevance nor is timelessness a concept to be pursued.



        And that is why just like the river loses it's riverine identity......

        .......the ocean loses it's oceanic identity.


        With the term "loses" not connotating that such was the case .......and........ in time it is no longer the case..

        ...but to point that inferred identities .....

        .....no matter how profoundly expansive  the boundary of the identity....

        .....were never existent at all.




        And that is why thought cannot configure this "loss" into a notable, recordable, recallable,
        definable , assertable, defendable .......experience.

        What can be noted, recorded, recalled, defined, asserted, defended.....

        .....is just the play of thought, with the notings, assertions, defense.......the sub-acts of the main play.






        This "loss" is not the vacuity of an idiot.


        It(using a referencing merely for this conversation) ....... poses no issue whatsoever to "be" in life......

        ......facing/dealing with whatever that being-in-life entails.

        For life is not some separative condition to be related to, posing the consequent question of how to relate.




        But nothing of life makes ....

        ....the "state of loss"(to use some mere words)........... bound by life.




        Thus the adage............in the world but not of the world.


        The abidance and the simultaneous transcendence.




        Activities, irrespective of their content......

        ......get seen to be nuances of a display of what it would like, if an such specific activities could ever be.



        For example, this very arrangement of pixels.....

        .....a nuance of a display of what writing would be like, if writing could ever be written.




         Ramana was an epitome of  compassion in explaining the notional difference between sahaja and kevala nirvikalpa. 



        There is neither coming down nor going up........ even in kevala nirvikalpa.....

        ...kevala nirvikalpa being another creativity of thought.



        For it is not that..........kevala nirvikalpa.....progresses......... to sahaja nirvikalpa.

        The river was always linked to the ocean.

        The riverine is oceanic.




         


        --- On Fri, 2/26/10, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        From: medit8ionsociety <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Enlightenment Realities
        To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 7:09 AM

         

        Question : Can the meditator be affected by
        physical disturbances during nirvikalpa samadhi?
        My friend and I disagree on this point.
        Ramana Maharshi : Both of you are right. One of
        you is referring to kevala and the other to sahaja
        samadhi. In both cases the mind is immersed in
        the bliss of the Self. In the former, physical
        movements may cause disturbance to the meditator,
        because the mind has not completely died out.
        It is still alive and can, as after deep sleep,
        at any moment be active again.

        It is compared to a bucket, which, although
        completely submerged under water, can be pulled
        out by a rope which is still attached to it. In
        sahaja, the mind has sunk completely into the
        Self, like the bucket which has got drowned in
        the depths of the well along with its rope. In
        sahaja there is nothing left to be disturbed or
        pulled back to the world. One's activities then
        resemble that of the child who sucks its mother's
        milk in sleep, and is hardly aware of the feeding.

        Question : How can one function in the world
        in such a state?
        Ramana Maharshi : One who accustoms himself
        naturally to meditation and enjoys the bliss
        of meditation will not lose his samadhi state
        whatever external work he does, whatever thoughts
        may come to him. That is sahaja nirvikalpa. Sahaja
        nirvikalpa is nasa [total destruction of the mind]
        whereas kevala nirvikalpa is laya [temporary
        abeyance of the mind].

        Those who are in the laya samadhi state will
        have to bring the mind back under control from
        time to time. If the mind is destroyed, as it
        is in sahaja samadhi, it will never sprout again.
        Whatever is done by such people is just incidental,
        they will never slide down from their high state.

        Those that are in the kevala nirvikalpa state
        are not realized, they are still seekers. Those
        who are in the sahaja nirvikalpa state are like
        a light in a windless place, or the ocean without
        waves; that is, there is no movement in them. They
        cannot find anything which is different from
        themselves. For those who do not reach that state,
        everything appears to be different from themselves.

        Question : Is the experience of kevala nirvikalpa
        the same as that of sahaja, although one comes down
        from it to the relative world?
        Ramana Maharshi : There is neither coming down nor
        going up - he who goes up and down is not real. In
        kevala nirvikalpa there is the mental bucket still
        in existence under the water, and it can be pulled
        out at any moment. Sahaja is like the river that
        has linked up with the ocean from which there is
        no return. Why do you ask all these questions? Go
        on practicing till you have the experience yourself.


      • Papajeff
        Thanks, Bob. The red flag of ego (mind s) presence wil be obvious in one s attempt to say what Ramana said, only better . It is very comforting that you let
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 26, 2010
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          Thanks, Bob.

          The red flag of ego (mind's)
          presence wil be obvious in
          one's attempt to say what
          Ramana said, "only better".

          It is very comforting that
          you let the words of Bhagavan
          speak for themselves without
          feeling the need to add
          "your" elucidation.

          A silent namaste,

          Jeff



          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Question : Can the meditator be affected by
          > physical disturbances during nirvikalpa samadhi?
          > My friend and I disagree on this point.
          > Ramana Maharshi : Both of you are right. One of
          > you is referring to kevala and the other to sahaja
          > samadhi. In both cases the mind is immersed in
          > the bliss of the Self. In the former, physical
          > movements may cause disturbance to the meditator,
          > because the mind has not completely died out.
          > It is still alive and can, as after deep sleep,
          > at any moment be active again.
          >
          > It is compared to a bucket, which, although
          > completely submerged under water, can be pulled
          > out by a rope which is still attached to it. In
          > sahaja, the mind has sunk completely into the
          > Self, like the bucket which has got drowned in
          > the depths of the well along with its rope. In
          > sahaja there is nothing left to be disturbed or
          > pulled back to the world. One's activities then
          > resemble that of the child who sucks its mother's
          > milk in sleep, and is hardly aware of the feeding.
          >
          > Question : How can one function in the world
          > in such a state?
          > Ramana Maharshi : One who accustoms himself
          > naturally to meditation and enjoys the bliss
          > of meditation will not lose his samadhi state
          > whatever external work he does, whatever thoughts
          > may come to him. That is sahaja nirvikalpa. Sahaja
          > nirvikalpa is nasa [total destruction of the mind]
          > whereas kevala nirvikalpa is laya [temporary
          > abeyance of the mind].
          >
          > Those who are in the laya samadhi state will
          > have to bring the mind back under control from
          > time to time. If the mind is destroyed, as it
          > is in sahaja samadhi, it will never sprout again.
          > Whatever is done by such people is just incidental,
          > they will never slide down from their high state.
          >
          > Those that are in the kevala nirvikalpa state
          > are not realized, they are still seekers. Those
          > who are in the sahaja nirvikalpa state are like
          > a light in a windless place, or the ocean without
          > waves; that is, there is no movement in them. They
          > cannot find anything which is different from
          > themselves. For those who do not reach that state,
          > everything appears to be different from themselves.
          >
          > Question : Is the experience of kevala nirvikalpa
          > the same as that of sahaja, although one comes down
          > from it to the relative world?
          > Ramana Maharshi : There is neither coming down nor
          > going up - he who goes up and down is not real. In
          > kevala nirvikalpa there is the mental bucket still
          > in existence under the water, and it can be pulled
          > out at any moment. Sahaja is like the river that
          > has linked up with the ocean from which there is
          > no return. Why do you ask all these questions? Go
          > on practicing till you have the experience yourself.
          >
        • medit8ionsociety
          Yo Papajeff, Thanks, but I m all for clarifications of the words of the Saints. Every religion has a tradition of expounding on what wisdom has been shared by
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 27, 2010
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            Yo Papajeff,
            Thanks, but I'm all for clarifications of the words
            of the Saints. Every religion has a tradition of
            expounding on what wisdom has been shared by their
            Gods or holiest people. And I certainly feel it's a
            "good thing" when someone helps point out a position
            that lets us gain greater understanding about such an
            esoteric subject as non-duality, or whatever we label
            Sri Ramana's thoughts (and non-thoughts). Matter of
            fact, you (your Self) do this kind of thing superbly!
            Peace and blessings,
            Bob

            "Papajeff" <jeff@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks, Bob.
            >
            > The red flag of ego (mind's)
            > presence wil be obvious in
            > one's attempt to say what
            > Ramana said, "only better".
            >
            > It is very comforting that
            > you let the words of Bhagavan
            > speak for themselves without
            > feeling the need to add
            > "your" elucidation.
            >
            > A silent namaste,
            >
            > Jeff
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Question : Can the meditator be affected by
            > > physical disturbances during nirvikalpa samadhi?
            > > My friend and I disagree on this point.
            > > Ramana Maharshi : Both of you are right. One of
            > > you is referring to kevala and the other to sahaja
            > > samadhi. In both cases the mind is immersed in
            > > the bliss of the Self. In the former, physical
            > > movements may cause disturbance to the meditator,
            > > because the mind has not completely died out.
            > > It is still alive and can, as after deep sleep,
            > > at any moment be active again.
            > >
            > > It is compared to a bucket, which, although
            > > completely submerged under water, can be pulled
            > > out by a rope which is still attached to it. In
            > > sahaja, the mind has sunk completely into the
            > > Self, like the bucket which has got drowned in
            > > the depths of the well along with its rope. In
            > > sahaja there is nothing left to be disturbed or
            > > pulled back to the world. One's activities then
            > > resemble that of the child who sucks its mother's
            > > milk in sleep, and is hardly aware of the feeding.
            > >
            > > Question : How can one function in the world
            > > in such a state?
            > > Ramana Maharshi : One who accustoms himself
            > > naturally to meditation and enjoys the bliss
            > > of meditation will not lose his samadhi state
            > > whatever external work he does, whatever thoughts
            > > may come to him. That is sahaja nirvikalpa. Sahaja
            > > nirvikalpa is nasa [total destruction of the mind]
            > > whereas kevala nirvikalpa is laya [temporary
            > > abeyance of the mind].
            > >
            > > Those who are in the laya samadhi state will
            > > have to bring the mind back under control from
            > > time to time. If the mind is destroyed, as it
            > > is in sahaja samadhi, it will never sprout again.
            > > Whatever is done by such people is just incidental,
            > > they will never slide down from their high state.
            > >
            > > Those that are in the kevala nirvikalpa state
            > > are not realized, they are still seekers. Those
            > > who are in the sahaja nirvikalpa state are like
            > > a light in a windless place, or the ocean without
            > > waves; that is, there is no movement in them. They
            > > cannot find anything which is different from
            > > themselves. For those who do not reach that state,
            > > everything appears to be different from themselves.
            > >
            > > Question : Is the experience of kevala nirvikalpa
            > > the same as that of sahaja, although one comes down
            > > from it to the relative world?
            > > Ramana Maharshi : There is neither coming down nor
            > > going up - he who goes up and down is not real. In
            > > kevala nirvikalpa there is the mental bucket still
            > > in existence under the water, and it can be pulled
            > > out at any moment. Sahaja is like the river that
            > > has linked up with the ocean from which there is
            > > no return. Why do you ask all these questions? Go
            > > on practicing till you have the experience yourself.
            > >
            >
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