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Cause and Effect and On-line Strategies

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  • medit8ionsociety
    Carl Sagan once said that to really find the cause of any effect you have to go back to the Big Bang and work from there. In a universe that s characterized by
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 16, 2010
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      Carl Sagan once said that to really find
      the cause of any effect you have to go back
      to the Big Bang and work from there. In a
      universe that's characterized by adjectives
      and adverbs like "Chaos", it's interesting
      that things pop up exactly when they would
      fit in. Right after reading Papajeff and
      Sandeep, both of whom I respect and think
      are wiser than the average bear, I found this
      site that deals with strategies that are used
      in on-line arguments.
      http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70321
      I hope you enjoy what is shareed there even if it
      doesn't exactly fit with what has been going on
      in these recent posts. In the case of the last few
      posts here, I want to say that when I read Sandeep,
      my mind's chatter often stops and that opens the
      "doors of perception", and since Swami Chidananda's
      recent death, I think Sandeep may be the most conscious
      person in India. Similarly, Papajeff is one of
      the brightest lights in America and has been very
      generous in presenting his wise in-sights. Both of these
      guys have demonstrated real Charity in the wisdom they
      share, and as I consider sharing those things that
      you have found to have helped you evolve in
      consciousness with others to the best thing you can
      do for someone. I feel this forum has been privileged
      to have so often been able to nurture our inner gardens
      with their enlightening words. I suggest that it is well
      worth checking out Papajeff's Yahoo group
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mysticheartmeditation/
      and Sandeep's web site:
      http://www.the-covenant.net/
      They both are thought provoking and thought stopping.
      And both have the potential to take you right to
      The Big Bang!
      Enjoy!
      Peace and blessings,
      Bob
    • Sandeep
      Hi Bob, ... Why even stop at that minor event? ... Much though it may seem like..........there is no linear cause-effect continuum. ... Exactly. Including the
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 16, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Bob,



        medit8ionsociety wrote:
         

        Carl Sagan once said that to really find
        the cause of any effect you have to go back
        to the Big Bang and work from there.



        Why even stop at that minor event?

        :-)

        Much though it may seem like..........there is no linear cause-effect continuum.



        In a
        universe that's characterized by adjectives
        and adverbs like "Chaos", it's interesting
        that things pop up exactly when they would
        fit in.



        Exactly.

        Including the arising thought which may of  the nature of bewilderment, anger, agony............as to how can this "pop up" be  seen  to be a fit...
        .. from any perspective.

        Aka, earthquakes, tsunamis, innocents getting blown apart in the name of Allah or democracy.

         


        Right after reading Papajeff and
        Sandeep, both of whom I respect and think
        are wiser than the average bear, I found this
        site that deals with strategies that are used
        in on-line arguments.
        http://www.jerzeede vil.com/forums/ showthread. php?t=70321



        LOL

        Very good.

        Being on the cyber circuit from the early 80s.....have seen all these variations.



        I hope you enjoy what is shareed there even if it
        doesn't exactly fit with what has been going on
        in these recent posts. In the case of the last few
        posts here, I want to say that when I read Sandeep,
        my mind's chatter often stops and that opens the
        "doors of perception", and since Swami Chidananda's
        recent death, I think Sandeep may be the most conscious
        person in India.




        Hey, the geographical spread of that endorsement is too small.

        Bob, how do you expect me to expand the business, in face of competition ?

        Be a little more generous, a bit more expansive, will ya!.




        Coming back to the subject of effortless effort.

        In fact, every effort is effortless.

        Not that reaching an enlightened state makes subsequent efforting as effortless.

        Effortless effort is already the case.

        What would effortfull effort be?

        It would be the enacting of actions, accompanied by a sense of ownership of the action, which as a package deal comes with the sense of stake with the unfolding actions.

        Doing......... with the accompanying halo of "I am the one doing such and such and I am the one who hopes that such and such will get me, the other,
        society, community, nation, humanity at large, such and such".

        The halo is all mentation.

        The presence or absence of the halo of mentation.........does not in any way effect the nature or content of the moment, which unfolds exactly as it did as the moment.

        (A delving would apperceive that even the physical act as the content of the moment.... is a wiggle in the field of mentation, but let's leave that for the moment)


        So this state of effortless effort( to use some terms for this communication)........can it ever be reached, attained, realized, achieved?

        What is not-the-case.......can be made to be the case.

        Which obviously needs something to be done by some one.

        What is already the case........how can it be made to be the case again?



        Now, espying these pixels.....thought immediately comes up......

        "-that's all neo-advaita bullshit, did not such and such (put in any of your favourite saint sage).....toil for decades, even several past lifetimes...........to reach salvation, enlightenment.

        -"When nothing in life, ie.fame, fortune, sex, power can be got without rowing your boat......how can the biggest mazumma be achieved just by sitting on your back-side".

        Thought may even construct..

        "- How can such nonsense be allowed to be espoused when I through such exacting and arduous rock climbing have reached the pinnacle of spirituality"

        "-What would I be left with........if all that I have done and achieved in the field of spirituality be debunked.....

        ....what would I be.....if ......it is all fluff?".



        In reverse thought may even construct

        " That is why effort is the very obstruction to realization, enlightenment and must be totally shunned.
         I must hunt down all these doers and negate them on every spiritual lists on cyber space, as well as all physical satsanghs."


        Both schools of thought.........are actually the same.

        What is the difference between believing that something is necessary, that something is the causal requirement for what-is-already-the-case to be reached.......

        ......and .....

        ..... believing that nothing has to be done........ as the causal requirement...... for what-is-already-the-case to be reached.

        No difference whatsoever.


        Which is why............if a specific technique is getting enacted which is held to be meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry........coming across a spectacle of need, anguish, suffering and getting moved to do whatever one did in that moment to assuage the spectacle......(whether succeeded or not)

        .......in each of these instances.........the apperceiving is that...........each of the instance was a natural nuance of the moment.....an unfolding play of totality as that very specific act of a multi-act drama......

        a drama .....which is nothing but a display of what would be it be like, if for example .....meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry, empathy.....

        ...was ever possible to be.




        Similarly, the absence of any of these facets of phenomenality........are as much .........a natural nuance of the moment.....as much as acts
        of the same multi-act drama.



        Now what is to be pursued, craved, intended, affirmed?

        What is to be shunned, avoided, negated?





        The instance....... no matter what it's content.......... is not a means to another instance.

        The instance........ no matter what its content........ is not an obstruction to another instance

        For no instance has a relation with another instance.

        Why not?

        Because each instance, irrespective of the content of that instance.........is complete in itself.


        There is no pop-up needing to fit into frame.

        The pop-up IS the frame.




        In this light of apperception(again a mere term)............where there is no surrounding halo of intentions, will, stakes, hopes.....

        the apperception that ....the halo IS the very unfolding meditation, if so.

        the apperception that .....the halo IS the very unfolding of empathy, if so.

        The apperception that....the halo IS the very unfolding absence of any such activities, if such is the case.



        The apperception that the pervading stillness..........is not an effect of what is unfolding................whether the unfolding happens in the dirt of the gutter

        or in the pristinity of cathedral towers.



        The light of this apperception .........consumes( to use a term).......all "other" instances......... both the recalled and the projected.


        The consumption of the recall and the projected .............is the consumption of even this instance.



        And the apperception that the Big Bang ...


        ..a mere infantile wiggle....

        .....to display what would it be like...... IF...... something could ever be on display.







      • Papajeff
        Hey Bob, Neat take on the loop back to the Big Bang as one of Awakening...at least that was my take on your take. About your generous comments: I would be
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 17, 2010
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          Hey Bob,

          Neat take on the loop back
          to the Big Bang as one of
          Awakening...at least that
          was my take on your take.

          About your generous comments:
          I would be humbled by them...
          except my brother often asks,
          "How can you be humble and
          know you're humble?"

          100W Love,

          Jeff

          PS: Strategies? Well, maybe
          a couple...or so...resonated
          as vaguely familiar.

          --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Carl Sagan once said that to really find
          > the cause of any effect you have to go back
          > to the Big Bang and work from there. In a
          > universe that's characterized by adjectives
          > and adverbs like "Chaos", it's interesting
          > that things pop up exactly when they would
          > fit in. Right after reading Papajeff and
          > Sandeep, both of whom I respect and think
          > are wiser than the average bear, I found this
          > site that deals with strategies that are used
          > in on-line arguments.
          > http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70321
          > I hope you enjoy what is shareed there even if it
          > doesn't exactly fit with what has been going on
          > in these recent posts. In the case of the last few
          > posts here, I want to say that when I read Sandeep,
          > my mind's chatter often stops and that opens the
          > "doors of perception", and since Swami Chidananda's
          > recent death, I think Sandeep may be the most conscious
          > person in India. Similarly, Papajeff is one of
          > the brightest lights in America and has been very
          > generous in presenting his wise in-sights. Both of these
          > guys have demonstrated real Charity in the wisdom they
          > share, and as I consider sharing those things that
          > you have found to have helped you evolve in
          > consciousness with others to the best thing you can
          > do for someone. I feel this forum has been privileged
          > to have so often been able to nurture our inner gardens
          > with their enlightening words. I suggest that it is well
          > worth checking out Papajeff's Yahoo group
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mysticheartmeditation/
          > and Sandeep's web site:
          > http://www.the-covenant.net/
          > They both are thought provoking and thought stopping.
          > And both have the potential to take you right to
          > The Big Bang!
          > Enjoy!
          > Peace and blessings,
          > Bob
          >
        • sean tremblay
          I am not even going to pretend to understand what direction this conversation has turned.I asked a simple question about doing good things for bullshit reasons
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 17, 2010
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            I am not even going to pretend to understand what direction this conversation has turned.
            I asked a simple question about doing good things for bullshit reasons and now these rantings are about as meaningfull to me as the garbled speach of your average bag lady
            And you sir Sandeep I probably should respect you like Bob does...But I don't probably because I have no Idea who you are....But you seem to be full of answers and the rest of us should all nbow down to your greatness...But I don't think so you spew ego laden rants that from a position of superiority.  Now I have been biting my tonque with you for the past two years, to be polite but I have had you are offensive, combative and easily offended, And I am tired of you you are tedious at best!  You also keep mentioning the war in Afghanistn in a round about way You got something you want to say to me come out and say! I've heard it all before.
            Bob I'm sorry about this you have been very supportive over the past few years, and I appreciate all you have done for me.  But I am not going to bow wide eyed like an school girl just because a guy has a reputation for have cows follow him. I'm fuckin done with this shit thank you 

            --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Sandeep <sandeep1960@...> wrote:

            From: Sandeep <sandeep1960@...>
            Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Cause and Effect and On-line Strategies
            To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 12:04 AM

             

            Hi Bob,



            medit8ionsociety wrote:

             

            Carl Sagan once said that to really find
            the cause of any effect you have to go back
            to the Big Bang and work from there.



            Why even stop at that minor event?

            :-)

            Much though it may seem like........ ..there is no linear cause-effect continuum.



            In a
            universe that's characterized by adjectives
            and adverbs like "Chaos", it's interesting
            that things pop up exactly when they would
            fit in.



            Exactly.

            Including the arising thought which may of  the nature of bewilderment, anger, agony....... .....as to how can this "pop up" be  seen  to be a fit...
            .. from any perspective.

            Aka, earthquakes, tsunamis, innocents getting blown apart in the name of Allah or democracy.

             


            Right after reading Papajeff and
            Sandeep, both of whom I respect and think
            are wiser than the average bear, I found this
            site that deals with strategies that are used
            in on-line arguments.
            http://www.jerzeede vil.com/forums/ showthread. php?t=70321



            LOL

            Very good.

            Being on the cyber circuit from the early 80s.....have seen all these variations.



            I hope you enjoy what is shareed there even if it
            doesn't exactly fit with what has been going on
            in these recent posts. In the case of the last few
            posts here, I want to say that when I read Sandeep,
            my mind's chatter often stops and that opens the
            "doors of perception", and since Swami Chidananda's
            recent death, I think Sandeep may be the most conscious
            person in India.




            Hey, the geographical spread of that endorsement is too small.

            Bob, how do you expect me to expand the business, in face of competition ?

            Be a little more generous, a bit more expansive, will ya!.




            Coming back to the subject of effortless effort.

            In fact, every effort is effortless.

            Not that reaching an enlightened state makes subsequent efforting as effortless.

            Effortless effort is already the case.

            What would effortfull effort be?

            It would be the enacting of actions, accompanied by a sense of ownership of the action, which as a package deal comes with the sense of stake with the unfolding actions.

            Doing....... .. with the accompanying halo of "I am the one doing such and such and I am the one who hopes that such and such will get me, the other,
            society, community, nation, humanity at large, such and such".

            The halo is all mentation.

            The presence or absence of the halo of mentation... ......does not in any way effect the nature or content of the moment, which unfolds exactly as it did as the moment.

            (A delving would apperceive that even the physical act as the content of the moment.... is a wiggle in the field of mentation, but let's leave that for the moment)


            So this state of effortless effort( to use some terms for this communication) ........can it ever be reached, attained, realized, achieved?

            What is not-the-case. ......can be made to be the case.

            Which obviously needs something to be done by some one.

            What is already the case........ how can it be made to be the case again?



            Now, espying these pixels.....thought immediately comes up......

            "-that's all neo-advaita bullshit, did not such and such (put in any of your favourite saint sage).....toil for decades, even several past lifetimes... ........to reach salvation, enlightenment.

            -"When nothing in life, ie.fame, fortune, sex, power can be got without rowing your boat......how can the biggest mazumma be achieved just by sitting on your back-side".

            Thought may even construct..

            "- How can such nonsense be allowed to be espoused when I through such exacting and arduous rock climbing have reached the pinnacle of spirituality"

            "-What would I be left with........ if all that I have done and achieved in the field of spirituality be debunked.... .

            ....what would I be.....if ......it is all fluff?".



            In reverse thought may even construct

            " That is why effort is the very obstruction to realization, enlightenment and must be totally shunned.
             I must hunt down all these doers and negate them on every spiritual lists on cyber space, as well as all physical satsanghs."


            Both schools of thought..... ....are actually the same.

            What is the difference between believing that something is necessary, that something is the causal requirement for what-is-already- the-case to be reached..... ..

            ......and .....

            ..... believing that nothing has to be done........ as the causal requirement. ..... for what-is-already- the-case to be reached.

            No difference whatsoever.


            Which is why......... ...if a specific technique is getting enacted which is held to be meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry. .......coming across a spectacle of need, anguish, suffering and getting moved to do whatever one did in that moment to assuage the spectacle... ...(whether succeeded or not)

            .......in each of these instances... ......the apperceiving is that........ ...each of the instance was a natural nuance of the moment.....an unfolding play of totality as that very specific act of a multi-act drama......

            a drama .....which is nothing but a display of what would be it be like, if for example .....meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry, empathy.....

            ...was ever possible to be.




            Similarly, the absence of any of these facets of phenomenality. .......are as much .........a natural nuance of the moment.....as much as acts
            of the same multi-act drama.



            Now what is to be pursued, craved, intended, affirmed?

            What is to be shunned, avoided, negated?





            The instance.... ... no matter what it's content..... ..... is not a means to another instance.

            The instance.... .... no matter what its content..... ... is not an obstruction to another instance

            For no instance has a relation with another instance.

            Why not?

            Because each instance, irrespective of the content of that instance.... .....is complete in itself.


            There is no pop-up needing to fit into frame.

            The pop-up IS the frame.




            In this light of apperception( again a mere term)....... .....where there is no surrounding halo of intentions, will, stakes, hopes.....

            the apperception that ....the halo IS the very unfolding meditation, if so.

            the apperception that .....the halo IS the very unfolding of empathy, if so.

            The apperception that....the halo IS the very unfolding absence of any such activities, if such is the case.



            The apperception that the pervading stillness... .......is not an effect of what is unfolding... ......... ....whether the unfolding happens in the dirt of the gutter

            or in the pristinity of cathedral towers.



            The light of this apperception .........consumes( to use a term)....... all "other" instances... ...... both the recalled and the projected.


            The consumption of the recall and the projected ............ .is the consumption of even this instance.



            And the apperception that the Big Bang ...


            ..a mere infantile wiggle....

            .....to display what would it be like...... IF...... something could ever be on display.








          • cosmic_yogi1
            Brother Sandeep! Your piercing insight is truly appreci-Loved:-) Thank you for sharing. Hanif ONE, or ZERO;-)
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 17, 2010
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              Brother Sandeep!

              Your piercing insight is truly appreci-Loved:-) Thank you for sharing.

              Hanif

              ONE, or ZERO;-)



              --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, Sandeep <sandeep1960@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Bob,
              >
              >
              >
              > medit8ionsociety wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Carl Sagan once said that to really find
              > > the cause of any effect you have to go back
              > > to the Big Bang and work from there.
              > >
              >
              >
              > Why even stop at that minor event?
              >
              > :-)
              >
              > Much though it may seem like..........there is no linear cause-effect
              > continuum.
              >
              >
              >
              > > In a
              > > universe that's characterized by adjectives
              > > and adverbs like "Chaos", it's interesting
              > > that things pop up exactly when they would
              > > fit in.
              > >
              >
              >
              > Exactly.
              >
              > Including the arising thought which may of the nature of bewilderment,
              > anger, agony............as to how can this "pop up" be seen to be a fit...
              > .. from any perspective.
              >
              > Aka, earthquakes, tsunamis, innocents getting blown apart in the name of
              > Allah or democracy.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > Right after reading Papajeff and
              > > Sandeep, both of whom I respect and think
              > > are wiser than the average bear, I found this
              > > site that deals with strategies that are used
              > > in on-line arguments.
              > > http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70321
              > > <http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70321>
              > >
              >
              >
              > LOL
              >
              > Very good.
              >
              > Being on the cyber circuit from the early 80s.....have seen all these
              > variations.
              >
              >
              >
              > > I hope you enjoy what is shareed there even if it
              > > doesn't exactly fit with what has been going on
              > > in these recent posts. In the case of the last few
              > > posts here, I want to say that when I read Sandeep,
              > > my mind's chatter often stops and that opens the
              > > "doors of perception", and since Swami Chidananda's
              > > recent death, I think Sandeep may be the most conscious
              > > person in India.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hey, the geographical spread of that endorsement is too small.
              >
              > Bob, how do you expect me to expand the business, in face of competition ?
              >
              > Be a little more generous, a bit more expansive, will ya!.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Coming back to the subject of effortless effort.
              >
              > In fact, every effort is effortless.
              >
              > Not that reaching an enlightened state makes subsequent efforting as
              > effortless.
              >
              > Effortless effort is already the case.
              >
              > What would effortfull effort be?
              >
              > It would be the enacting of actions, accompanied by a sense of ownership
              > of the action, which as a package deal comes with the sense of stake
              > with the unfolding actions.
              >
              > Doing......... with the accompanying halo of "I am the one doing such
              > and such and I am the one who hopes that such and such will get me, the
              > other,
              > society, community, nation, humanity at large, such and such".
              >
              > The halo is all mentation.
              >
              > The presence or absence of the halo of mentation.........does not in any
              > way effect the nature or content of the moment, which unfolds exactly as
              > it did as the moment.
              >
              > (A delving would apperceive that even the physical act as the content of
              > the moment.... is a wiggle in the field of mentation, but let's leave
              > that for the moment)
              >
              >
              > So this state of effortless effort( to use some terms for this
              > communication)........can it ever be reached, attained, realized, achieved?
              >
              > What is not-the-case.......can be made to be the case.
              >
              > Which obviously needs something to be done by some one.
              >
              > What is already the case........how can it be made to be the case again?
              >
              >
              >
              > Now, espying these pixels.....thought immediately comes up......
              >
              > "-that's all neo-advaita bullshit, did not such and such (put in any of
              > your favourite saint sage).....toil for decades, even several past
              > lifetimes...........to reach salvation, enlightenment.
              >
              > -"When nothing in life, ie.fame, fortune, sex, power can be got without
              > rowing your boat......how can the biggest mazumma be achieved just by
              > sitting on your back-side".
              >
              > Thought may even construct..
              >
              > "- How can such nonsense be allowed to be espoused when I through such
              > exacting and arduous rock climbing have reached the pinnacle of
              > spirituality"
              >
              > "-What would I be left with........if all that I have done and achieved
              > in the field of spirituality be debunked.....
              >
              > ....what would I be.....if ......it is all fluff?".
              >
              >
              >
              > In reverse thought may even construct
              >
              > " That is why effort is the very obstruction to realization,
              > enlightenment and must be totally shunned.
              > I must hunt down all these doers and negate them on every spiritual
              > lists on cyber space, as well as all physical satsanghs."
              >
              >
              > Both schools of thought.........are actually the same.
              >
              > What is the difference between believing that something is necessary,
              > that something is the causal requirement for what-is-already-the-case to
              > be reached.......
              >
              > ......and .....
              >
              > ..... believing that nothing has to be done........ as the causal
              > requirement...... for what-is-already-the-case to be reached.
              >
              > No difference whatsoever.
              >
              >
              > Which is why............if a specific technique is getting enacted which
              > is held to be meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry........coming across
              > a spectacle of need, anguish, suffering and getting moved to do whatever
              > one did in that moment to assuage the spectacle......(whether succeeded
              > or not)
              >
              > .......in each of these instances.........the apperceiving is
              > that...........each of the instance was a natural nuance of the
              > moment.....an unfolding play of totality as that very specific act of a
              > multi-act drama......
              >
              > a drama .....which is nothing but a display of what would be it be like,
              > if for example .....meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry, empathy.....
              >
              > ...was ever possible to be.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Similarly, the absence of any of these facets of
              > phenomenality........are as much .........a natural nuance of the
              > moment.....as much as acts
              > of the same multi-act drama.
              >
              >
              >
              > Now what is to be pursued, craved, intended, affirmed?
              >
              > What is to be shunned, avoided, negated?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The instance....... no matter what it's content.......... is not a means
              > to another instance.
              >
              > The instance........ no matter what its content........ is not an
              > obstruction to another instance
              >
              > For no instance has a relation with another instance.
              >
              > Why not?
              >
              > Because each instance, irrespective of the content of that
              > instance.........is complete in itself.
              >
              >
              > There is no pop-up needing to fit into frame.
              >
              > The pop-up IS the frame.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > In this light of apperception(again a mere term)............where there
              > is no surrounding halo of intentions, will, stakes, hopes.....
              >
              > the apperception that ....the halo IS the very unfolding meditation, if so.
              >
              > the apperception that .....the halo IS the very unfolding of empathy, if so.
              >
              > The apperception that....the halo IS the very unfolding absence of any
              > such activities, if such is the case.
              >
              >
              >
              > The apperception that the pervading stillness..........is not an effect
              > of what is unfolding................whether the unfolding happens in the
              > dirt of the gutter
              >
              > or in the pristinity of cathedral towers.
              >
              >
              >
              > The light of this apperception .........consumes( to use a
              > term).......all "other" instances......... both the recalled and the
              > projected.
              >
              >
              > The consumption of the recall and the projected .............is the
              > consumption of even this instance.
              >
              >
              >
              > And the apperception that the Big Bang ...
              >
              >
              > ..a mere infantile wiggle....
              >
              > .....to display what would it be like...... IF...... something could
              > ever be on display.
              >
            • sandeep chatterjee
              Hi Sean, Greetings, ... From: sean tremblay Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Cause and Effect and On-line Strategies To:
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 17, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Sean,

                Greetings,


                --- On Wed, 2/17/10, sean tremblay <bethjams9@...> wrote:

                From: sean tremblay <bethjams9@...>
                Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Cause and Effect and On-line Strategies
                To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 7:25 PM


                 

                I am not even going to pretend to understand what direction this conversation has turned.

                -------

                That's fine.


                -------

                I asked a simple question about doing good things for bullshit reasons and now these rantings are about as meaningfull to me as the garbled speach of your average bag lady
                And you sir Sandeep I probably should respect you like Bob does...But I don't probably because I have no Idea who you are

                --------

                OK



                ------


                ....But you seem to be full of answers and the rest of us should all nbow down to your greatness...

                -------

                Nope.

                But if that is how I appear to you......that too is fine.

                -----



                 But I don't think so you spew ego laden rants that from a position of superiority.  Now I have been biting my tonque with you for the past two years, to be polite but I have had you are offensive, combative and easily offended,


                ------

                :-)

                That must be some  worn out tongue.

                --------





                 And I am tired of you you are tedious at best!  You also keep mentioning the war in Afghanistn in a round about way You got something you want to say to me come out and say! I've heard it all before.


                ------

                eh?

                War in Afghanistan?




                ---------


                Bob I'm sorry about this you have been very supportive over the past few years, and I appreciate all you have done for me.  But I am not going to bow wide eyed like an school girl just because a guy has a reputation for have cows follow him. I'm fuckin done with this shit thank you

                --------

                Good.

                I hope you are feeling lighter.







                .

              • Aideen Mckenna
                Dearest Sean - this forum, or whatever it s called, has been my sangha for a few years now, & I treasure it, if for no other reason than what I ve learned from
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 17, 2010
                • 0 Attachment

                  Dearest Sean - this forum, or whatever it’s called, has been my sangha for a few years now, & I treasure it, if for no other reason than what I’ve learned from you.  I try to understand what’s being shared, & I think I grasp most of it.  What I find incomprehensible, I let go.  Maybe I’ll “get it” some day, maybe not.  Either way, I’m okay.  My mother died at 73, & my father died at the age I am now (72), so I’m noticing that life is short.  Most stuff (maybe all of it) is just not worth getting angry about.  At least, that’s how I see it.    

                   


                  From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of sean tremblay
                  Sent: February-17-10 6:55 AM
                  To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Cause and Effect and On-line Strategies

                   

                   

                  I am not even going to pretend to understand what direction this conversation has turned.

                  I asked a simple question about doing good things for bullshit reasons and now these rantings are about as meaningfull to me as the garbled speach of your average bag lady

                  And you sir Sandeep I probably should respect you like Bob does...But I don't probably because I have no Idea who you are....But you seem to be full of answers and the rest of us should all nbow down to your greatness... But I don't think so you spew ego laden rants that from a position of superiority.  Now I have been biting my tonque with you for the past two years, to be polite but I have had you are offensive, combative and easily offended, And I am tired of you you are tedious at best!  You also keep mentioning the war in Afghanistn in a round about way You got something you want to say to me come out and say! I've heard it all before.

                  Bob I'm sorry about this you have been very supportive over the past few years, and I appreciate all you have done for me.  But I am not going to bow wide eyed like an school girl just because a guy has a reputation for have cows follow him. I'm fuckin done with this shit thank you 

                  --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Sandeep <sandeep1960@ yahoo.com> wrote:


                  From: Sandeep <sandeep1960@ yahoo.com>
                  Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Cause and Effect and On-line Strategies
                  To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 12:04 AM

                   

                  Hi Bob,



                  medit8ionsociety wrote:

                   

                  Carl Sagan once said that to really find
                  the cause of any effect you have to go back
                  to the Big Bang and work from there.



                  Why even stop at that minor event?

                  :-)

                  Much though it may seem like........ ..there is no linear cause-effect continuum.




                  In a
                  universe that's characterized by adjectives
                  and adverbs like "Chaos", it's interesting
                  that things pop up exactly when they would
                  fit in.



                  Exactly.

                  Including the arising thought which may of  the nature of bewilderment, anger, agony....... .....as to how can this "pop up" be  seen  to be a fit...
                  .. from any perspective.

                  Aka, earthquakes, tsunamis, innocents getting blown apart in the name of Allah or democracy.

                   



                  Right after reading Papajeff and
                  Sandeep, both of whom I respect and think
                  are wiser than the average bear, I found this
                  site that deals with strategies that are used
                  in on-line arguments.
                  http://www.jerzeede vil.com/forums/ showthread. php?t=70321



                  LOL

                  Very good.

                  Being on the cyber circuit from the early 80s.....have seen all these variations.




                  I hope you enjoy what is shareed there even if it
                  doesn't exactly fit with what has been going on
                  in these recent posts. In the case of the last few
                  posts here, I want to say that when I read Sandeep,
                  my mind's chatter often stops and that opens the
                  "doors of perception", and since Swami Chidananda's
                  recent death, I think Sandeep may be the most conscious
                  person in India .




                  Hey, the geographical spread of that endorsement is too small.

                  Bob, how do you expect me to expand the business, in face of competition ?

                  Be a little more generous, a bit more expansive, will ya!.




                  Coming back to the subject of effortless effort.

                  In fact, every effort is effortless.

                  Not that reaching an enlightened state makes subsequent efforting as effortless.

                  Effortless effort is already the case.

                  What would effortfull effort be?

                  It would be the enacting of actions, accompanied by a sense of ownership of the action, which as a package deal comes with the sense of stake with the unfolding actions.

                  Doing....... .. with the accompanying halo of "I am the one doing such and such and I am the one who hopes that such and such will get me, the other,
                  society, community, nation, humanity at large, such and such".

                  The halo is all mentation.

                  The presence or absence of the halo of mentation... ......does not in any way effect the nature or content of the moment, which unfolds exactly as it did as the moment.

                  (A delving would apperceive that even the physical act as the content of the moment.... is a wiggle in the field of mentation, but let's leave that for the moment)


                  So this state of effortless effort( to use some terms for this communication) ........can it ever be reached, attained, realized, achieved?

                  What is not-the-case. ......can be made to be the case.

                  Which obviously needs something to be done by some one.

                  What is already the case........ how can it be made to be the case again?



                  Now, espying these pixels.....thought immediately comes up......

                  "-that's all neo-advaita bullshit, did not such and such (put in any of your favourite saint sage).....toil for decades, even several past lifetimes... ........to reach salvation, enlightenment.

                  -"When nothing in life, ie.fame, fortune, sex, power can be got without rowing your boat......how can the biggest mazumma be achieved just by sitting on your back-side".

                  Thought may even construct..

                  "- How can such nonsense be allowed to be espoused when I through such exacting and arduous rock climbing have reached the pinnacle of spirituality"

                  "-What would I be left with........ if all that I have done and achieved in the field of spirituality be debunked.... .

                  ....what would I be.....if ......it is all fluff?".



                  In reverse thought may even construct

                  " That is why effort is the very obstruction to realization, enlightenment and must be totally shunned.
                   I must hunt down all these doers and negate them on every spiritual lists on cyber space, as well as all physical satsanghs."


                  Both schools of thought..... ....are actually the same.

                  What is the difference between believing that something is necessary, that something is the causal requirement for what-is-already- the-case to be reached..... ..

                  ......and .....

                  ..... believing that nothing has to be done........ as the causal requirement. ..... for what-is-already- the-case to be reached.

                  No difference whatsoever.


                  Which is why......... ...if a specific technique is getting enacted which is held to be meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry. .......coming across a spectacle of need, anguish, suffering and getting moved to do whatever one did in that moment to assuage the spectacle... ...(whether succeeded or not)

                  .......in each of these instances... ......the apperceiving is that........ ...each of the instance was a natural nuance of the moment.....an unfolding play of totality as that very specific act of a multi-act drama......

                  a drama .....which is nothing but a display of what would be it be like, if for example .....meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry, empathy.....

                  ...was ever possible to be.




                  Similarly, the absence of any of these facets of phenomenality. .......are as much .........a natural nuance of the moment.....as much as acts
                  of the same multi-act drama.



                  Now what is to be pursued, craved, intended, affirmed?

                  What is to be shunned, avoided, negated?





                  The instance.... ... no matter what it's content..... ..... is not a means to another instance.

                  The instance.... .... no matter what its content..... ... is not an obstruction to another instance

                  For no instance has a relation with another instance.

                  Why not?

                  Because each instance, irrespective of the content of that instance.... .....is complete in itself.


                  There is no pop-up needing to fit into frame.

                  The pop-up IS the frame.




                  In this light of apperception( again a mere term)....... .....where there is no surrounding halo of intentions, will, stakes, hopes.....

                  the apperception that ....the halo IS the very unfolding meditation, if so.

                  the apperception that .....the halo IS the very unfolding of empathy, if so.

                  The apperception that....the halo IS the very unfolding absence of any such activities, if such is the case.



                  The apperception that the pervading stillness... .......is not an effect of what is unfolding... ......... ....whether the unfolding happens in the dirt of the gutter

                  or in the pristinity of cathedral towers.



                  The light of this apperception .........consumes( to use a term)....... all "other" instances... ...... both the recalled and the projected.


                  The consumption of the recall and the projected ............ .is the consumption of even this instance.



                  And the apperception that the Big Bang ...


                  ..a mere infantile wiggle....

                  .....to display what would it be like...... IF...... something could ever be on display.






                   

                • medit8ionsociety
                  ... Yo Sean, Semi-interesting reaction to Sandeep. I have always seen him as not there . By that I mean he has no attachment to name, fame, game, and just
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 17, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    sean tremblay <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am not even going to pretend to understand what direction this conversation has turned.I asked a simple question about doing good things for bullshit reasons and now these rantings are about as meaningfull to me as the garbled speach of your average bag ladyAnd you sir Sandeep I probably should respect you like Bob does...But I don't probably because I have no Idea who you are....But you seem to be full of answers and the rest of us should all nbow down to your greatness...But I don't think so you spew ego laden rants that from a position of superiority.  Now I have been biting my tonque with you for the past two years, to be polite but I have had you are offensive, combative and easily offended, And I am tired of you you are tedious at best!  You also keep mentioning the war in Afghanistn in a round about way You got something you want to say to me come out and say! I've heard it all before.Bob I'm sorry about this you have been very supportive over
                    > the past few years, and I appreciate all you have done for me.  But I am not going to bow wide eyed like an school girl just because a guy has a reputation for have cows follow him. I'm fuckin done with this shit thank you 
                    >
                    Yo Sean,
                    Semi-interesting reaction to Sandeep. I have always
                    seen him as "not there". By that I mean he has no
                    attachment to name, fame, game, and just presents
                    his presents, which come in the form of reminders
                    (using reminders to refer to "hey - look at what
                    your mind is chattering about"). And for me, he does
                    it very well. To me where he is coming from is in the
                    non-dual, Advaita, Vedanta and Jhana Yoga traditions,
                    and it is said that only 1 seeker in 1,000 will find
                    these concepts ones they are comfortable with. No big
                    deal about him or the way he presents things. It's not
                    a good or bad thing - it's just his way of expressing
                    the inexpressible. I think Papajeff is one of the
                    most eloquent writers around, and in a very different
                    styling, so is Sandeep. If their words don't bring you
                    peace, they are no good for you. If they do, they are.
                    I'm just pleased they both share so freely. As for you,
                    I think you will be amazingly successful when you write
                    your book because you reek of passion and your life
                    has been extra-ordinary. You're for sure "the real deal".
                    Peace and blessings,
                    Bob
                    > --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Sandeep <sandeep1960@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Sandeep <sandeep1960@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Cause and Effect and On-line Strategies
                    > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 12:04 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Bob,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > medit8ionsociety wrote:
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    > Carl Sagan once said that to really find
                    >
                    > the cause of any effect you have to go back
                    >
                    > to the Big Bang and work from there.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Why even stop at that minor event?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > :-)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Much though it may seem like........ ..there is no linear cause-effect
                    > continuum.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In a
                    >
                    > universe that's characterized by adjectives
                    >
                    > and adverbs like "Chaos", it's interesting
                    >
                    > that things pop up exactly when they would
                    >
                    > fit in.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Exactly.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Including the arising thought which may of  the nature of bewilderment,
                    > anger, agony....... .....as to how can this "pop up" be  seen  to be a
                    > fit...
                    >
                    > .. from any perspective.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Aka, earthquakes, tsunamis, innocents getting blown apart in the name
                    > of Allah or democracy.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Right after reading Papajeff and
                    >
                    > Sandeep, both of whom I respect and think
                    >
                    > are wiser than the average bear, I found this
                    >
                    > site that deals with strategies that are used
                    >
                    > in on-line arguments.
                    >
                    > http://www.jerzeede vil.com/forums/ showthread. php?t=70321
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > LOL
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Very good.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Being on the cyber circuit from the early 80s.....have seen all these
                    > variations.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I hope you enjoy what is shareed there even if it
                    >
                    > doesn't exactly fit with what has been going on
                    >
                    > in these recent posts. In the case of the last few
                    >
                    > posts here, I want to say that when I read Sandeep,
                    >
                    > my mind's chatter often stops and that opens the
                    >
                    > "doors of perception", and since Swami Chidananda's
                    >
                    > recent death, I think Sandeep may be the most conscious
                    >
                    > person in India.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hey, the geographical spread of that endorsement is too small.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Bob, how do you expect me to expand the business, in face of
                    > competition ?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Be a little more generous, a bit more expansive, will ya!.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Coming back to the subject of effortless effort.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In fact, every effort is effortless.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Not that reaching an enlightened state makes subsequent efforting as
                    > effortless.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Effortless effort is already the case.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > What would effortfull effort be?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > It would be the enacting of actions, accompanied by a sense of
                    > ownership of the action, which as a package deal comes with the sense
                    > of stake with the unfolding actions.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Doing....... .. with the accompanying halo of "I am the one doing such
                    > and such and I am the one who hopes that such and such will get me, the
                    > other,
                    >
                    > society, community, nation, humanity at large, such and such".
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The halo is all mentation.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The presence or absence of the halo of mentation... ......does not in
                    > any way effect the nature or content of the moment, which unfolds
                    > exactly as it did as the moment.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > (A delving would apperceive that even the physical act as the content
                    > of the moment.... is a wiggle in the field of mentation, but let's
                    > leave that for the moment)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > So this state of effortless effort( to use some terms for this
                    > communication) ........can it ever be reached, attained, realized,
                    > achieved?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > What is not-the-case. ......can be made to be the case.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Which obviously needs something to be done by some one.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > What is already the case........ how can it be made to be the case again?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Now, espying these pixels.....thought immediately comes up......
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "-that's all neo-advaita bullshit, did not such and such (put in any of
                    > your favourite saint sage).....toil for decades, even several past
                    > lifetimes... ........to reach salvation, enlightenment.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -"When nothing in life, ie.fame, fortune, sex, power can be got without
                    > rowing your boat......how can the biggest mazumma be achieved just by
                    > sitting on your back-side".
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thought may even construct..
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "- How can such nonsense be allowed to be espoused when I through such
                    > exacting and arduous rock climbing have reached the pinnacle of
                    > spirituality"
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "-What would I be left with........ if all that I have done and achieved
                    > in the field of spirituality be debunked.... .
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ....what would I be.....if ......it is all fluff?".
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In reverse thought may even construct
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > " That is why effort is the very obstruction to realization,
                    > enlightenment and must be totally shunned.
                    >
                    >  I must hunt down all these doers and negate them on every spiritual
                    > lists on cyber space, as well as all physical satsanghs."
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Both schools of thought..... ....are actually the same.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > What is the difference between believing that something is necessary,
                    > that something is the causal requirement for what-is-already- the-case
                    > to be reached..... ..
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ......and .....
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ..... believing that nothing has to be done........ as the causal
                    > requirement. ..... for what-is-already- the-case to be reached.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > No difference whatsoever.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Which is why......... ...if a specific technique is getting enacted
                    > which is held to be meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry. .......coming
                    > across a spectacle of need, anguish, suffering and getting moved to do
                    > whatever one did in that moment to assuage the spectacle... ...(whether
                    > succeeded or not)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > .......in each of these instances... ......the apperceiving is
                    > that........ ...each of the instance was a natural nuance of the
                    > moment.....an unfolding play of totality as that very specific act of a
                    > multi-act drama......
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > a drama .....which is nothing but a display of what would be it be
                    > like, if for example .....meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry,
                    > empathy.....
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ...was ever possible to be.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Similarly, the absence of any of these facets of
                    > phenomenality. .......are as much .........a natural nuance of the
                    > moment.....as much as acts
                    >
                    > of the same multi-act drama.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Now what is to be pursued, craved, intended, affirmed?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > What is to be shunned, avoided, negated?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The instance.... ... no matter what it's content..... ..... is not a
                    > means to another instance.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The instance.... .... no matter what its content..... ... is not an
                    > obstruction to another instance
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > For no instance has a relation with another instance.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Why not?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Because each instance, irrespective of the content of that
                    > instance.... .....is complete in itself.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > There is no pop-up needing to fit into frame.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The pop-up IS the frame.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In this light of apperception( again a mere term)....... .....where there
                    > is no surrounding halo of intentions, will, stakes, hopes.....
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > the apperception that ....the halo IS the very unfolding meditation, if
                    > so.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > the apperception that .....the halo IS the very unfolding of empathy,
                    > if so.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The apperception that....the halo IS the very unfolding absence of any
                    > such activities, if such is the case.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The apperception that the pervading stillness... .......is not an effect
                    > of what is unfolding... ......... ....whether the unfolding happens in
                    > the dirt of the gutter
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > or in the pristinity of cathedral towers.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The light of this apperception .........consumes( to use a
                    > term)....... all "other" instances... ...... both the recalled and the
                    > projected.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The consumption of the recall and the projected ............ .is the
                    > consumption of even this instance.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > And the apperception that the Big Bang ...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ..a mere infantile wiggle....
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > .....to display what would it be like...... IF...... something could
                    > ever be on display.
                    >
                  • Aideen Mckenna
                    Thanks, Bob, for letting us know more about Sandeep. And thanks for nudging Sean about the book he needs to write – because I, for one, need to read it.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 17, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Thanks, Bob, for letting us know more about Sandeep.  And thanks for nudging Sean about the book he needs to write – because I, for one, need to read it.

                      Aideen

                       


                      From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of medit8ionsociety
                      Sent: February-17-10 8:09 PM
                      To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America ] Cause and Effect and On-line Strategies

                       

                       



                      sean tremblay <bethjams9@. ..> wrote:

                      >
                      > I am not even going to pretend to understand what direction this
                      conversation has turned.I asked a simple question about doing good things for bullshit reasons and now these rantings are about as meaningfull to me as the garbled speach of your average bag ladyAnd you sir Sandeep I probably should respect you like Bob does...But I don't probably because I have no Idea who you are....But you seem to be full of answers and the rest of us should all nbow down to your greatness... But I don't think so you spew ego laden rants that from a position of superiority.  Now I have been biting my tonque with you for the past two years, to be polite but I have had you are offensive, combative and easily offended, And I am tired of you you are tedious at best!  You also keep mentioning the war in Afghanistn in a round about way You got something you want to say to me come out and say! I've heard it all before.Bob I'm sorry about this you have been very supportive over
                      > the past few years, and I appreciate all you have done for me.  But
                      I am not going to bow wide eyed like an school girl just because a guy has a reputation for have cows follow him. I'm fuckin done with this shit thank you 
                      >
                      Yo Sean,
                      Semi-interesting reaction to Sandeep. I have always
                      seen him as "not there". By that I mean he has no
                      attachment to name, fame, game, and just presents
                      his presents, which come in the form of reminders
                      (using reminders to refer to "hey - look at what
                      your mind is chattering about"). And for me, he does
                      it very well. To me where he is coming from is in the
                      non-dual, Advaita, Vedanta and Jhana Yoga traditions,
                      and it is said that only 1 seeker in 1,000 will find
                      these concepts ones they are comfortable with. No big
                      deal about him or the way he presents things. It's not
                      a good or bad thing - it's just his way of expressing
                      the inexpressible. I think Papajeff is one of the
                      most eloquent writers around, and in a very different
                      styling, so is Sandeep. If their words don't bring you
                      peace, they are no good for you. If they do, they are.
                      I'm just pleased they both share so freely. As for you,
                      I think you will be amazingly successful when you write
                      your book because you reek of passion and your life
                      has been extra-ordinary. You're for sure "the real deal".
                      Peace and blessings,
                      Bob
                      > --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Sandeep <sandeep1960@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Sandeep <sandeep1960@ ...>
                      > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of
                      w:st="on">America ] Cause and Effect and On-line Strategies
                      > To: meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com
                      > Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 12:04 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Bob,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > medit8ionsociety wrote:
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      > Carl Sagan once said that to really find
                      >
                      > the cause of any effect you have to go back
                      >
                      > to the Big Bang and work from there.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Why even stop at that minor event?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > :-)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Much though it may seem like........ ..there is no linear cause-effect
                      > continuum.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In a
                      >
                      > universe that's characterized by adjectives
                      >
                      > and adverbs like "Chaos", it's interesting
                      >
                      > that things pop up exactly when they would
                      >
                      > fit in.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Exactly.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Including the arising thought which may of  the nature of
                      bewilderment,
                      > anger, agony....... .....as to how can this "pop up" be 
                      seen  to be a
                      > fit...
                      >
                      > .. from any perspective.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Aka, earthquakes, tsunamis, innocents getting blown apart in the name
                      > of Allah or democracy.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Right after reading Papajeff and
                      >
                      > Sandeep, both of whom I respect and think
                      >
                      > are wiser than the average bear, I found this
                      >
                      > site that deals with strategies that are used
                      >
                      > in on-line arguments.
                      >
                      > http://www.jerzeede vil.com/forums/
                      showthread. php?t=70321
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > LOL
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Very good.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Being on the cyber circuit from the early 80s.....have seen all these
                      > variations.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I hope you enjoy what is shareed there even if it
                      >
                      > doesn't exactly fit with what has been going on
                      >
                      > in these recent posts. In the case of the last few
                      >
                      > posts here, I want to say that when I read Sandeep,
                      >
                      > my mind's chatter often stops and that opens the
                      >
                      > "doors of perception", and since Swami Chidananda's
                      >
                      > recent death, I think Sandeep may be the most conscious
                      >
                      > person in India .
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hey, the geographical spread of that endorsement is too small.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Bob, how do you expect me to expand the business, in face of
                      > competition ?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Be a little more generous, a bit more expansive, will ya!.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Coming back to the subject of effortless effort.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In fact, every effort is effortless.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Not that reaching an enlightened state makes subsequent efforting as
                      > effortless.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Effortless effort is already the case.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > What would effortfull effort be?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > It would be the enacting of actions, accompanied by a sense of
                      > ownership of the action, which as a package deal comes with the sense
                      > of stake with the unfolding actions.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Doing....... .. with the accompanying halo of "I am the one doing
                      such
                      > and such and I am the one who hopes that such and such will get me, the
                      > other,
                      >
                      > society, community, nation, humanity at large, such and such".
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The halo is all mentation.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The presence or absence of the halo of mentation... ......does not in
                      > any way effect the nature or content of the moment, which unfolds
                      > exactly as it did as the moment.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > (A delving would apperceive that even the physical act as the content
                      > of the moment.... is a wiggle in the field of mentation, but let's
                      > leave that for the moment)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > So this state of effortless effort( to use some terms for this
                      > communication) ........can it ever be reached, attained, realized,
                      > achieved?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > What is not-the-case. ......can be made to be the case.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Which obviously needs something to be done by some one.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > What is already the case........ how can it be made to be the case again?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Now, espying these pixels.....thought immediately comes up......
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > "-that's all neo-advaita bullshit, did not such and such (put in any
                      of
                      > your favourite saint sage).....toil for decades, even several past
                      > lifetimes... ........to reach salvation, enlightenment.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -"When nothing in life, ie.fame, fortune, sex, power can be got
                      without
                      > rowing your boat......how can the biggest mazumma be achieved just by
                      > sitting on your back-side".
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thought may even construct..
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > "- How can such nonsense be allowed to be espoused when I through
                      such
                      > exacting and arduous rock climbing have reached the pinnacle of
                      > spirituality"
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > "-What would I be left with........ if all that I have done and achieved
                      > in the field of spirituality be debunked.... .
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ....what would I be.....if ......it is all fluff?".
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In reverse thought may even construct
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > " That is why effort is the very obstruction to realization,
                      > enlightenment and must be totally shunned.
                      >
                      >  I must hunt down all these doers and negate them on every spiritual
                      > lists on cyber space, as well as all physical satsanghs."
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Both schools of thought..... ....are actually the same.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > What is the difference between believing that something is necessary,
                      > that something is the causal requirement for what-is-already- the-case
                      > to be reached..... ..
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ......and .....
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ..... believing that nothing has to be done........ as the causal
                      > requirement. ..... for what-is-already- the-case to be reached.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > No difference whatsoever.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Which is why......... ...if a specific technique is getting enacted
                      > which is held to be meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry. .......coming
                      > across a spectacle of need, anguish, suffering and getting moved to do
                      > whatever one did in that moment to assuage the spectacle... ...(whether
                      > succeeded or not)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > .......in each of these instances... ......the apperceiving is
                      > that........ ...each of the instance was a natural nuance of the
                      > moment.....an unfolding play of totality as that very specific act of a
                      > multi-act drama......
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > a drama .....which is nothing but a display of what would be it be
                      > like, if for example .....meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry,
                      > empathy.....
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ...was ever possible to be.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Similarly, the absence of any of these facets of
                      > phenomenality. .......are as much .........a natural nuance of the
                      > moment.....as much as acts
                      >
                      > of the same multi-act drama.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Now what is to be pursued, craved, intended, affirmed?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > What is to be shunned, avoided, negated?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The instance.... ... no matter what it's content..... ..... is not a
                      > means to another instance.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The instance.... .... no matter what its content..... ... is not an
                      > obstruction to another instance
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > For no instance has a relation with another instance.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Why not?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Because each instance, irrespective of the content of that
                      > instance.... .....is complete in itself.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > There is no pop-up needing to fit into frame.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The pop-up IS the frame.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In this light of apperception( again a mere term)....... .....where there
                      > is no surrounding halo of intentions, will, stakes, hopes.....
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > the apperception that ....the halo IS the very unfolding meditation, if
                      > so.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > the apperception that .....the halo IS the very unfolding of empathy,
                      > if so.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The apperception that....the halo IS the very unfolding absence of any
                      > such activities, if such is the case.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The apperception that the pervading stillness... .......is not an effect
                      > of what is unfolding... ......... ....whether the unfolding happens in
                      > the dirt of the gutter
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > or in the pristinity of cathedral towers.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The light of this apperception .........consumes( to use a
                      > term)....... all "other" instances... ...... both the recalled
                      and the
                      > projected.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The consumption of the recall and the projected ............ .is the
                      > consumption of even this instance.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > And the apperception that the Big Bang ...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ..a mere infantile wiggle....
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > .....to display what would it be like...... IF...... something could
                      > ever be on display.
                      >

                    • medit8ionsociety
                      ... Yo Aideen, Yeah, Sean can do some writing! And his real-life adventures are so unique and different there s no doubt he ll be a sensation when he begins to
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 18, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        "Aideen Mckenna" <aideenmck@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks, Bob, for letting us know more about Sandeep. And thanks for nudging
                        > Sean about the book he needs to write – because I, for one, need to read it.
                        >
                        > Aideen
                        >
                        Yo Aideen,
                        Yeah, Sean can do some writing! And his real-life
                        adventures are so unique and different there's no
                        doubt he'll be a sensation when he begins to
                        share his experiences in a venue that brings a larger
                        audience to his unique persona. He'll do something some
                        day that has this come about and I hope it's sooner than later.
                        Peace and blessings,
                        Bob
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        > medit8ionsociety
                        > Sent: February-17-10 8:09 PM
                        > To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Cause and Effect and On-line
                        > Strategies
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > sean tremblay <bethjams9@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I am not even going to pretend to understand what direction this
                        > conversation has turned.I asked a simple question about doing good things
                        > for bullshit reasons and now these rantings are about as meaningfull to me
                        > as the garbled speach of your average bag ladyAnd you sir Sandeep I probably
                        > should respect you like Bob does...But I don't probably because I have no
                        > Idea who you are....But you seem to be full of answers and the rest of us
                        > should all nbow down to your greatness...But I don't think so you spew ego
                        > laden rants that from a position of superiority. Â Now I have been biting my
                        > tonque with you for the past two years, to be polite but I have had you are
                        > offensive, combative and easily offended, And I am tired of you you are
                        > tedious at best! Â You also keep mentioning the war in Afghanistn in a round
                        > about way You got something you want to say to me come out and say! I've
                        > heard it all before.Bob I'm sorry about this you have been very supportive
                        > over
                        > > the past few years, and I appreciate all you have done for me. Â But I am
                        > not going to bow wide eyed like an school girl just because a guy has a
                        > reputation for have cows follow him. I'm fuckin done with this shit thank
                        > youÂ
                        > >
                        > Yo Sean,
                        > Semi-interesting reaction to Sandeep. I have always
                        > seen him as "not there". By that I mean he has no
                        > attachment to name, fame, game, and just presents
                        > his presents, which come in the form of reminders
                        > (using reminders to refer to "hey - look at what
                        > your mind is chattering about"). And for me, he does
                        > it very well. To me where he is coming from is in the
                        > non-dual, Advaita, Vedanta and Jhana Yoga traditions,
                        > and it is said that only 1 seeker in 1,000 will find
                        > these concepts ones they are comfortable with. No big
                        > deal about him or the way he presents things. It's not
                        > a good or bad thing - it's just his way of expressing
                        > the inexpressible. I think Papajeff is one of the
                        > most eloquent writers around, and in a very different
                        > styling, so is Sandeep. If their words don't bring you
                        > peace, they are no good for you. If they do, they are.
                        > I'm just pleased they both share so freely. As for you,
                        > I think you will be amazingly successful when you write
                        > your book because you reek of passion and your life
                        > has been extra-ordinary. You're for sure "the real deal".
                        > Peace and blessings,
                        > Bob
                        > > --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Sandeep <sandeep1960@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > From: Sandeep <sandeep1960@>
                        > > Subject: Re: [Meditation Society of America] Cause and Effect and On-line
                        > Strategies
                        > > To: meditationsocietyof
                        > <mailto:meditationsocietyofamerica%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > america@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 12:04 AM
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Â
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Bob,
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > medit8ionsociety wrote:
                        > > Â
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Carl Sagan once said that to really find
                        > >
                        > > the cause of any effect you have to go back
                        > >
                        > > to the Big Bang and work from there.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Why even stop at that minor event?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > :-)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Much though it may seem like........ ..there is no linear cause-effect
                        > > continuum.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In a
                        > >
                        > > universe that's characterized by adjectives
                        > >
                        > > and adverbs like "Chaos", it's interesting
                        > >
                        > > that things pop up exactly when they would
                        > >
                        > > fit in.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Exactly.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Including the arising thought which may of the nature of bewilderment,
                        > > anger, agony....... .....as to how can this "pop up" be seen to be a
                        > > fit...
                        > >
                        > > .. from any perspective.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Aka, earthquakes, tsunamis, innocents getting blown apart in the name
                        > > of Allah or democracy.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Â
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Right after reading Papajeff and
                        > >
                        > > Sandeep, both of whom I respect and think
                        > >
                        > > are wiser than the average bear, I found this
                        > >
                        > > site that deals with strategies that are used
                        > >
                        > > in on-line arguments.
                        > >
                        > > http://www.jerzeede vil.com/forums/ showthread. php?t=70321
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > LOL
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Very good.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Being on the cyber circuit from the early 80s.....have seen all these
                        > > variations.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I hope you enjoy what is shareed there even if it
                        > >
                        > > doesn't exactly fit with what has been going on
                        > >
                        > > in these recent posts. In the case of the last few
                        > >
                        > > posts here, I want to say that when I read Sandeep,
                        > >
                        > > my mind's chatter often stops and that opens the
                        > >
                        > > "doors of perception", and since Swami Chidananda's
                        > >
                        > > recent death, I think Sandeep may be the most conscious
                        > >
                        > > person in India.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hey, the geographical spread of that endorsement is too small.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Bob, how do you expect me to expand the business, in face of
                        > > competition ?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Be a little more generous, a bit more expansive, will ya!.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Coming back to the subject of effortless effort.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In fact, every effort is effortless.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Not that reaching an enlightened state makes subsequent efforting as
                        > > effortless.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Effortless effort is already the case.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > What would effortfull effort be?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > It would be the enacting of actions, accompanied by a sense of
                        > > ownership of the action, which as a package deal comes with the sense
                        > > of stake with the unfolding actions.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Doing....... .. with the accompanying halo of "I am the one doing such
                        > > and such and I am the one who hopes that such and such will get me, the
                        > > other,
                        > >
                        > > society, community, nation, humanity at large, such and such".
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The halo is all mentation.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The presence or absence of the halo of mentation... ......does not in
                        > > any way effect the nature or content of the moment, which unfolds
                        > > exactly as it did as the moment.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > (A delving would apperceive that even the physical act as the content
                        > > of the moment.... is a wiggle in the field of mentation, but let's
                        > > leave that for the moment)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > So this state of effortless effort( to use some terms for this
                        > > communication) ........can it ever be reached, attained, realized,
                        > > achieved?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > What is not-the-case. ......can be made to be the case.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Which obviously needs something to be done by some one.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > What is already the case........ how can it be made to be the case again?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Now, espying these pixels.....thought immediately comes up......
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "-that's all neo-advaita bullshit, did not such and such (put in any of
                        > > your favourite saint sage).....toil for decades, even several past
                        > > lifetimes... ........to reach salvation, enlightenment.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -"When nothing in life, ie.fame, fortune, sex, power can be got without
                        > > rowing your boat......how can the biggest mazumma be achieved just by
                        > > sitting on your back-side".
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Thought may even construct..
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "- How can such nonsense be allowed to be espoused when I through such
                        > > exacting and arduous rock climbing have reached the pinnacle of
                        > > spirituality"
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "-What would I be left with........ if all that I have done and achieved
                        > > in the field of spirituality be debunked.... .
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ....what would I be.....if ......it is all fluff?".
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In reverse thought may even construct
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > " That is why effort is the very obstruction to realization,
                        > > enlightenment and must be totally shunned.
                        > >
                        > > Â I must hunt down all these doers and negate them on every spiritual
                        > > lists on cyber space, as well as all physical satsanghs."
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Both schools of thought..... ....are actually the same.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > What is the difference between believing that something is necessary,
                        > > that something is the causal requirement for what-is-already- the-case
                        > > to be reached..... ..
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ......and .....
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ..... believing that nothing has to be done........ as the causal
                        > > requirement. ..... for what-is-already- the-case to be reached.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > No difference whatsoever.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Which is why......... ...if a specific technique is getting enacted
                        > > which is held to be meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry. .......coming
                        > > across a spectacle of need, anguish, suffering and getting moved to do
                        > > whatever one did in that moment to assuage the spectacle... ...(whether
                        > > succeeded or not)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > .......in each of these instances... ......the apperceiving is
                        > > that........ ...each of the instance was a natural nuance of the
                        > > moment.....an unfolding play of totality as that very specific act of a
                        > > multi-act drama......
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > a drama .....which is nothing but a display of what would be it be
                        > > like, if for example .....meditation, bhakti-japa, self-enquiry,
                        > > empathy.....
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ...was ever possible to be.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Similarly, the absence of any of these facets of
                        > > phenomenality. .......are as much .........a natural nuance of the
                        > > moment.....as much as acts
                        > >
                        > > of the same multi-act drama.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Now what is to be pursued, craved, intended, affirmed?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > What is to be shunned, avoided, negated?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The instance.... ... no matter what it's content..... ..... is not a
                        > > means to another instance.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The instance.... .... no matter what its content..... ... is not an
                        > > obstruction to another instance
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > For no instance has a relation with another instance.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Why not?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Because each instance, irrespective of the content of that
                        > > instance.... .....is complete in itself.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > There is no pop-up needing to fit into frame.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The pop-up IS the frame.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In this light of apperception( again a mere term)....... .....where there
                        > > is no surrounding halo of intentions, will, stakes, hopes.....
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > the apperception that ....the halo IS the very unfolding meditation, if
                        > > so.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > the apperception that .....the halo IS the very unfolding of empathy,
                        > > if so.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The apperception that....the halo IS the very unfolding absence of any
                        > > such activities, if such is the case.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The apperception that the pervading stillness... .......is not an effect
                        > > of what is unfolding... ......... ....whether the unfolding happens in
                        > > the dirt of the gutter
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > or in the pristinity of cathedral towers.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The light of this apperception .........consumes( to use a
                        > > term)....... all "other" instances... ...... both the recalled and the
                        > > projected.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The consumption of the recall and the projected ............ .is the
                        > > consumption of even this instance.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > And the apperception that the Big Bang ...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ..a mere infantile wiggle....
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > .....to display what would it be like...... IF...... something could
                        > > ever be on display.
                        > >
                        >
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