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The Bhagavad Gita 5

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  • westwindwood2003
    The materialistic standpoint, nothing is permanent, nihilism, atheism, (unorthodox opinions) 26. Consider: And now this constantly aborning, or thinking
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 19 8:46 PM
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      The materialistic standpoint, nothing is permanent, nihilism,
      atheism, (unorthodox opinions)

      26. Consider: And now this constantly aborning, or thinking death,
      this is inevitable, even then Oh Mighty Armed, do not grieve. (All
      together now, one, two, three, in two part harmony)

      27. Of the born, for certain there is death, and a birth for that
      which is dead, and therefore the matter is inevitable. You aught not
      to grieve. (Life, death, life, death, life, deathÂ… one after the
      other as long as there is karma to work out and then nothing at the
      end, or maybe it's just an exchange of one physical entity for
      another over and over again. This is for the materialists, but what
      of enlightenment for thou?)

      28. Un-manifested in the beginning, beings manifested in their middle
      state O Bharatha, un-manifested again in the end, so again what grief
      is there? (Nature dictates there be manifestations, but there is no
      Self through it all)

      The above opinions, although not in agreement with accepted beliefs,
      are examined. Ultimately, no big deal because whatever you believe,
      when you get whacked up the side of the head with enlightenment, then
      you have to accept It and get off your duff, and give up despondency
      or whatever you were clinging to, or believing in, accept It and go
      forth.
    • sean tremblay
      Agreed, belief is just belief and what is,is regardless westwindwood2003 wrote: The materialistic standpoint, nothing is
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 20 8:48 AM
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        Agreed,
        belief is just belief and what is,is regardless

        westwindwood2003 <westwindwood2003@...> wrote:
        The materialistic standpoint, nothing is permanent, nihilism,
        atheism, (unorthodox opinions)

        26. Consider: And now this constantly aborning, or thinking death,
        this is inevitable, even then Oh Mighty Armed, do not grieve. (All
        together now, one, two, three, in two part harmony)

        27. Of the born, for certain there is death, and a birth for that
        which is dead, and therefore the matter is inevitable. You aught not
        to grieve. (Life, death, life, death, life, deathÂ… one after the
        other as long as there is karma to work out and then nothing at the
        end, or maybe it's just an exchange of one physical entity for
        another over and over again. This is for the materialists, but what
        of enlightenment for thou?)

        28. Un-manifested in the beginning, beings manifested in their middle
        state O Bharatha, un-manifested again in the end, so again what grief
        is there? (Nature dictates there be manifestations, but there is no
        Self through it all)

        The above opinions, although not in agreement with accepted beliefs,
        are examined. Ultimately, no big deal because whatever you believe,
        when you get whacked up the side of the head with enlightenment, then
        you have to accept It and get off your duff, and give up despondency
        or whatever you were clinging to, or believing in, accept It and go
        forth.



        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

      • westwindwood2003
        Atman transcends mind, speech, and understanding 29: Enlightenment happens to someone: astonished, awed, in wonder, overwhelmed even; therefore, the speaking
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 20 9:09 PM
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          Atman transcends mind, speech, and understanding

          29: Enlightenment happens to someone: astonished, awed, in wonder,
          overwhelmed even; therefore, the speaking of this foregoing to another,
          the superlative words are not nearly enough, and so this other knows
          not of what is trying to be expressed, the words bring no
          understanding. To the casual bystanders all this description means
          nothing whatsoever.

          30: In all bodies is the indestructible Indweller, O Bharta (Arjuna),
          grieve not for them at all.

          Well, since you have the Indweller, you work with yourself so that if
          It is revealed, the superlative guidance and wisdom presented for the
          Self to take up, to evolve towards the Indweller's nature will be
          undertaken.
        • westwindwood2003
          Swerve Not From Duty 31 to 37 31. One is born into the class of people that fight for righteousness, and nothing is higher that this duty, so look at not to
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 23 8:29 AM
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            Swerve Not From Duty 31 to 37


            31. One is born into the class of people that fight for
            righteousness, and nothing is higher that this duty, so look at not
            to waver.

            32. It has happened at this time that the gift of enlightenment is
            apparent; O partha of the fighting class, go into this battle.

            33. But if you avoid this righteous warfare that is you fame, your
            duty, abandonment shall incur sin.

            34. Your dishonor will be told about by the honored and this
            everlastingly so and exceeds the pain of death

            35. Other warriors who have experienced enlightenment and currently
            hold you in high esteem will decide you are a light weigh for
            withdrawing from the battle for the spiritual.

            36. Belittling words are to be spoken and many will say your enemies
            will criticize your petty power. What could be more painful than
            this?

            37. In death you will gain heaven; victorious you will enjoy the
            earth. Therefore Arjuna, be resolved to fight.
          • sandeep chatterjee
            Thus spake Osama to the new Al Queda recruits.
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 23 10:00 AM
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              Thus spake Osama to the new Al Queda recruits.

              westwindwood2003 wrote:
              > Swerve Not From Duty 31 to 37
              > 31. One is born into the class of people that fight for
              > righteousness, and nothing is higher that this duty, so look at not
              > to waver.
              > 32. It has happened at this time that the gift of enlightenment is
              > apparent; O partha of the fighting class, go into this battle.
              > 33. But if you avoid this righteous warfare that is you fame, your
              > duty, abandonment shall incur sin.
              > 34. Your dishonor will be told about by the honored and this
              > everlastingly so and exceeds the pain of death
              > 35. Other warriors who have experienced enlightenment and currently
              > hold you in high esteem will decide you are a light weigh for
              > withdrawing from the battle for the spiritual.
              > 36. Belittling words are to be spoken and many will say your enemies
              > will criticize your petty power. What could be more painful than
              > this?
              > 37. In death you will gain heaven; victorious you will enjoy the
              > earth. Therefore Arjuna, be resolved to fight.
              >
            • sean tremblay
              And has been the rallying battle cry of all commanders to the troops of all nations who make war! In the context of Ajuna s reluctance in a military sense,
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 23 2:33 PM
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                And has been the rallying battle cry of all commanders
                to the troops of all nations who make war!
                In the context of Ajuna's reluctance in a military
                sense, this is something I myself have struggled with.
                I learned my trade i the US Army and my Darma is to
                explore, ever sense I was a boy I have had an
                insatiable curiosity. However in the context of
                soldiering I was always at odds I am realy an
                anarchist at heart with a didain for authority and a
                dislike of possesing authority over others yet.... I
                find the military in some form or other keeps creeping
                it's way back into my life!? A karmic cycle I must
                break? purhaps or Something I must give into?!
                --- sandeep chatterjee <sandeep1960@...> wrote:

                > Thus spake Osama to the new Al Queda recruits.
                >
                > westwindwood2003 wrote:
                > > Swerve Not From Duty 31 to 37
                > > 31. One is born into the class of people that
                > fight for
                > > righteousness, and nothing is higher that this
                > duty, so look at not
                > > to waver.
                > > 32. It has happened at this time that the gift of
                > enlightenment is
                > > apparent; O partha of the fighting class, go into
                > this battle.
                > > 33. But if you avoid this righteous warfare that
                > is you fame, your
                > > duty, abandonment shall incur sin.
                > > 34. Your dishonor will be told about by the
                > honored and this
                > > everlastingly so and exceeds the pain of death
                > > 35. Other warriors who have experienced
                > enlightenment and currently
                > > hold you in high esteem will decide you are a
                > light weigh for
                > > withdrawing from the battle for the spiritual.
                > > 36. Belittling words are to be spoken and many
                > will say your enemies
                > > will criticize your petty power. What could be
                > more painful than
                > > this?
                > > 37. In death you will gain heaven; victorious you
                > will enjoy the
                > > earth. Therefore Arjuna, be resolved to fight.
                > >
                >
                >



                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
              • Jeff Belyea
                Sean - Krisna s advice to Arjuna is in the context of consciousness. The battleground is the mind and the concepts that the illusory and secondary identity
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 23 5:44 PM
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                  Sean -

                  Krisna's advice to Arjuna is
                  in the context of consciousness.
                  The battleground is the mind
                  and the concepts that the illusory
                  and secondary identity (ego)
                  finds so precious.

                  Enlightenment - in one aspect, the
                  victory over ego attachments - reveals
                  a primary identity that has absolute
                  clarity and no unanswered questions
                  ...nothing to resolve...perfect peace
                  of mind and utter tranquility.

                  Jeff


                  --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, sean tremblay
                  <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > And has been the rallying battle cry of all commanders
                  > to the troops of all nations who make war!
                  > In the context of Ajuna's reluctance in a military
                  > sense, this is something I myself have struggled with.
                  > I learned my trade i the US Army and my Darma is to
                  > explore, ever sense I was a boy I have had an
                  > insatiable curiosity. However in the context of
                  > soldiering I was always at odds I am realy an
                  > anarchist at heart with a didain for authority and a
                  > dislike of possesing authority over others yet.... I
                  > find the military in some form or other keeps creeping
                  > it's way back into my life!? A karmic cycle I must
                  > break? purhaps or Something I must give into?!
                  > --- sandeep chatterjee <sandeep1960@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Thus spake Osama to the new Al Queda recruits.
                  > >
                  > > westwindwood2003 wrote:
                  > > > Swerve Not From Duty 31 to 37
                  > > > 31. One is born into the class of people that
                  > > fight for
                  > > > righteousness, and nothing is higher that this
                  > > duty, so look at not
                  > > > to waver.
                  > > > 32. It has happened at this time that the gift of
                  > > enlightenment is
                  > > > apparent; O partha of the fighting class, go into
                  > > this battle.
                  > > > 33. But if you avoid this righteous warfare that
                  > > is you fame, your
                  > > > duty, abandonment shall incur sin.
                  > > > 34. Your dishonor will be told about by the
                  > > honored and this
                  > > > everlastingly so and exceeds the pain of death
                  > > > 35. Other warriors who have experienced
                  > > enlightenment and currently
                  > > > hold you in high esteem will decide you are a
                  > > light weigh for
                  > > > withdrawing from the battle for the spiritual.
                  > > > 36. Belittling words are to be spoken and many
                  > > will say your enemies
                  > > > will criticize your petty power. What could be
                  > > more painful than
                  > > > this?
                  > > > 37. In death you will gain heaven; victorious you
                  > > will enjoy the
                  > > > earth. Therefore Arjuna, be resolved to fight.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  ______________
                  > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                  > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                  >
                • sean tremblay
                  yep, I understand it both ways ... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 23 5:46 PM
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                    yep, I understand it both ways
                    --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:

                    > Sean -
                    >
                    > Krisna's advice to Arjuna is
                    > in the context of consciousness.
                    > The battleground is the mind
                    > and the concepts that the illusory
                    > and secondary identity (ego)
                    > finds so precious.
                    >
                    > Enlightenment - in one aspect, the
                    > victory over ego attachments - reveals
                    > a primary identity that has absolute
                    > clarity and no unanswered questions
                    > ...nothing to resolve...perfect peace
                    > of mind and utter tranquility.
                    >
                    > Jeff
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                    > sean tremblay
                    > <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > And has been the rallying battle cry of all
                    > commanders
                    > > to the troops of all nations who make war!
                    > > In the context of Ajuna's reluctance in a military
                    > > sense, this is something I myself have struggled
                    > with.
                    > > I learned my trade i the US Army and my Darma is
                    > to
                    > > explore, ever sense I was a boy I have had an
                    > > insatiable curiosity. However in the context of
                    > > soldiering I was always at odds I am realy an
                    > > anarchist at heart with a didain for authority and
                    > a
                    > > dislike of possesing authority over others yet....
                    > I
                    > > find the military in some form or other keeps
                    > creeping
                    > > it's way back into my life!? A karmic cycle I must
                    > > break? purhaps or Something I must give into?!
                    > > --- sandeep chatterjee <sandeep1960@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Thus spake Osama to the new Al Queda recruits.
                    > > >
                    > > > westwindwood2003 wrote:
                    > > > > Swerve Not From Duty 31 to 37
                    > > > > 31. One is born into the class of people that
                    > > > fight for
                    > > > > righteousness, and nothing is higher that this
                    > > > duty, so look at not
                    > > > > to waver.
                    > > > > 32. It has happened at this time that the gift
                    > of
                    > > > enlightenment is
                    > > > > apparent; O partha of the fighting class, go
                    > into
                    > > > this battle.
                    > > > > 33. But if you avoid this righteous warfare
                    > that
                    > > > is you fame, your
                    > > > > duty, abandonment shall incur sin.
                    > > > > 34. Your dishonor will be told about by the
                    > > > honored and this
                    > > > > everlastingly so and exceeds the pain of death
                    >
                    > > > > 35. Other warriors who have experienced
                    > > > enlightenment and currently
                    > > > > hold you in high esteem will decide you are a
                    > > > light weigh for
                    > > > > withdrawing from the battle for the spiritual.
                    >
                    > > > > 36. Belittling words are to be spoken and many
                    > > > will say your enemies
                    > > > > will criticize your petty power. What could
                    > be
                    > > > more painful than
                    > > > > this?
                    > > > > 37. In death you will gain heaven; victorious
                    > you
                    > > > will enjoy the
                    > > > > earth. Therefore Arjuna, be resolved to
                    > fight.
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    ______________________________________________________________________
                    > ______________
                    > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                    > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                    http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                  • sean tremblay
                    to bad that idea didn t make to the guys with the ammonium nitrate. I do realize that the most violent segments of any religion realy are a minority. Was it
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 23 5:57 PM
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                      to bad that idea didn't make to the guys with the
                      ammonium nitrate.
                      I do realize that the most violent segments of any
                      religion realy are a minority. Was it Socrates who
                      said there have always coexisted two religions one for
                      the masses and one for the initiate? any way it was
                      one of the great greeks
                      --- Bruce Morgen <editor@...> wrote:

                      > The Islamic concept of jihad
                      > is understood in a similarly
                      > bifurcated way -- Muslim
                      > moderates tend to see it as
                      > referring to an inner
                      > struggle toward understanding
                      > and righteousness, while
                      > various fundy factions
                      > interpret it literally as war
                      > against "infidels" on behalf
                      > of Islam itself.
                      >
                      >
                      > sean tremblay wrote:
                      > > yep, I understand it both ways
                      > > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >> Sean -
                      > >>
                      > >> Krisna's advice to Arjuna is
                      > >> in the context of consciousness.
                      > >> The battleground is the mind
                      > >> and the concepts that the illusory
                      > >> and secondary identity (ego)
                      > >> finds so precious.
                      > >>
                      > >> Enlightenment - in one aspect, the
                      > >> victory over ego attachments - reveals
                      > >> a primary identity that has absolute
                      > >> clarity and no unanswered questions
                      > >> ...nothing to resolve...perfect peace
                      > >> of mind and utter tranquility.
                      > >>
                      > >> Jeff
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> --- In
                      > meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                      > >> sean tremblay
                      > >> <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>> And has been the rallying battle cry of all
                      > >>>
                      > >> commanders
                      > >>
                      > >>> to the troops of all nations who make war!
                      > >>> In the context of Ajuna's reluctance in a
                      > military
                      > >>> sense, this is something I myself have struggled
                      > >>>
                      > >> with.
                      > >>
                      > >>> I learned my trade i the US Army and my Darma
                      > is
                      > >>>
                      > >> to
                      > >>
                      > >>> explore, ever sense I was a boy I have had an
                      > >>> insatiable curiosity. However in the context of
                      > >>> soldiering I was always at odds I am realy an
                      > >>> anarchist at heart with a didain for authority
                      > and
                      > >>>
                      > >> a
                      > >>
                      > >>> dislike of possesing authority over others
                      > yet....
                      > >>>
                      > >> I
                      > >>
                      > >>> find the military in some form or other keeps
                      > >>>
                      > >> creeping
                      > >>
                      > >>> it's way back into my life!? A karmic cycle I
                      > must
                      > >>> break? purhaps or Something I must give into?!
                      > >>> --- sandeep chatterjee <sandeep1960@...> wrote:
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>> Thus spake Osama to the new Al Queda recruits.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> westwindwood2003 wrote:
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> Swerve Not From Duty 31 to 37
                      > >>>>> 31. One is born into the class of people that
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>> fight for
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> righteousness, and nothing is higher that this
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>> duty, so look at not
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> to waver.
                      > >>>>> 32. It has happened at this time that the gift
                      > >>>>>
                      > >> of
                      > >>
                      > >>>> enlightenment is
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> apparent; O partha of the fighting class, go
                      > >>>>>
                      > >> into
                      > >>
                      > >>>> this battle.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> 33. But if you avoid this righteous warfare
                      > >>>>>
                      > >> that
                      > >>
                      > >>>> is you fame, your
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> duty, abandonment shall incur sin.
                      > >>>>> 34. Your dishonor will be told about by the
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>> honored and this
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> everlastingly so and exceeds the pain of death
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> 35. Other warriors who have experienced
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>> enlightenment and currently
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> hold you in high esteem will decide you are a
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>> light weigh for
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> withdrawing from the battle for the spiritual.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> 36. Belittling words are to be spoken and many
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>> will say your enemies
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> will criticize your petty power. What could
                      > >>>>>
                      > >> be
                      > >>
                      > >>>> more painful than
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> this?
                      > >>>>> 37. In death you will gain heaven; victorious
                      > >>>>>
                      > >> you
                      > >>
                      > >>>> will enjoy the
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> earth. Therefore Arjuna, be resolved to
                      > >>>>>
                      > >> fight.
                      > >>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>
                      >
                      >


                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                      http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                    • Bruce Morgen
                      The Islamic concept of jihad is understood in a similarly bifurcated way -- Muslim moderates tend to see it as referring to an inner struggle toward
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 23 6:51 PM
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                        The Islamic concept of jihad
                        is understood in a similarly
                        bifurcated way -- Muslim
                        moderates tend to see it as
                        referring to an inner
                        struggle toward understanding
                        and righteousness, while
                        various fundy factions
                        interpret it literally as war
                        against "infidels" on behalf
                        of Islam itself.


                        sean tremblay wrote:
                        > yep, I understand it both ways
                        > --- Jeff Belyea <jeff@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >> Sean -
                        >>
                        >> Krisna's advice to Arjuna is
                        >> in the context of consciousness.
                        >> The battleground is the mind
                        >> and the concepts that the illusory
                        >> and secondary identity (ego)
                        >> finds so precious.
                        >>
                        >> Enlightenment - in one aspect, the
                        >> victory over ego attachments - reveals
                        >> a primary identity that has absolute
                        >> clarity and no unanswered questions
                        >> ...nothing to resolve...perfect peace
                        >> of mind and utter tranquility.
                        >>
                        >> Jeff
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com,
                        >> sean tremblay
                        >> <bethjams9@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> And has been the rallying battle cry of all
                        >>>
                        >> commanders
                        >>
                        >>> to the troops of all nations who make war!
                        >>> In the context of Ajuna's reluctance in a military
                        >>> sense, this is something I myself have struggled
                        >>>
                        >> with.
                        >>
                        >>> I learned my trade i the US Army and my Darma is
                        >>>
                        >> to
                        >>
                        >>> explore, ever sense I was a boy I have had an
                        >>> insatiable curiosity. However in the context of
                        >>> soldiering I was always at odds I am realy an
                        >>> anarchist at heart with a didain for authority and
                        >>>
                        >> a
                        >>
                        >>> dislike of possesing authority over others yet....
                        >>>
                        >> I
                        >>
                        >>> find the military in some form or other keeps
                        >>>
                        >> creeping
                        >>
                        >>> it's way back into my life!? A karmic cycle I must
                        >>> break? purhaps or Something I must give into?!
                        >>> --- sandeep chatterjee <sandeep1960@...> wrote:
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>> Thus spake Osama to the new Al Queda recruits.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> westwindwood2003 wrote:
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> Swerve Not From Duty 31 to 37
                        >>>>> 31. One is born into the class of people that
                        >>>>>
                        >>>> fight for
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> righteousness, and nothing is higher that this
                        >>>>>
                        >>>> duty, so look at not
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> to waver.
                        >>>>> 32. It has happened at this time that the gift
                        >>>>>
                        >> of
                        >>
                        >>>> enlightenment is
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> apparent; O partha of the fighting class, go
                        >>>>>
                        >> into
                        >>
                        >>>> this battle.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> 33. But if you avoid this righteous warfare
                        >>>>>
                        >> that
                        >>
                        >>>> is you fame, your
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> duty, abandonment shall incur sin.
                        >>>>> 34. Your dishonor will be told about by the
                        >>>>>
                        >>>> honored and this
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> everlastingly so and exceeds the pain of death
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> 35. Other warriors who have experienced
                        >>>>>
                        >>>> enlightenment and currently
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> hold you in high esteem will decide you are a
                        >>>>>
                        >>>> light weigh for
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> withdrawing from the battle for the spiritual.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> 36. Belittling words are to be spoken and many
                        >>>>>
                        >>>> will say your enemies
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> will criticize your petty power. What could
                        >>>>>
                        >> be
                        >>
                        >>>> more painful than
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> this?
                        >>>>> 37. In death you will gain heaven; victorious
                        >>>>>
                        >> you
                        >>
                        >>>> will enjoy the
                        >>>>
                        >>>>> earth. Therefore Arjuna, be resolved to
                        >>>>>
                        >> fight.
                        >>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>
                      • westwindwood2003
                        38. Engage yourself in this battle where pain and pleasure, gain and loss, victory and defeat matter not. You incur no sin because all these pairs are
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 30 10:29 PM
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                          38. Engage yourself in this battle where pain and pleasure, gain and
                          loss, victory and defeat matter not. You incur no sin because all
                          these pairs are released (let go of) in this battle for wisdom (right
                          behavior).

                          When you experience enlightenment, knowledge of how you should
                          conduct your affairs is presented to you in meditation; you offer up
                          the positive and negative feelings that have surfaced in meditation
                          and ask for guidance. Your desire for a particular outcome is
                          totally let go of and the insight of how you should proceed is given
                          to you.

                          39. Listen up Arjuna; taking up the yoke of Yoga means absolutely
                          adhering to the Wisdom the yoga presents to you, and in doing so, the
                          bondage of karma shall be removed.

                          You will follow a wisdom not found in your own personality, something
                          much better than your nature, and you will be changed for the better.

                          40. In this most feeble of efforts there is no production of
                          unfortunate results, even with uneven application, this duty protects
                          against great fear.

                          It has been a while since I started meditation, but I remember.
                          Meditation was such a feeble tentative effort because of my karma, my
                          condition. However, I was urged to continue by a wise person, and a
                          tiny start was all it took; it was a beginning with good results. I
                          did have great fear because I was so out of my comfort zone; having
                          what I thought was control of my destiny (hah, what an illusion that
                          is with all the self induced pain). So I worked on cultivating the
                          relationship (I was uneven in the application because I LIKED the
                          familiarity of my nature) with that Wisdom I had found, and with the
                          procedure of doing meditation came calmness, the determination to do
                          the right thing in giving up my karmic tendencies because life was
                          better that way. The fear left soon on, but the propensities still
                          persisted for many years and required much work.

                          41. One pointed determination is the destiny of Arjuna (Oh the joy of
                          the Kurus is he) because there is always a single answer for any
                          specific problem. There is but one decision for a problem since he
                          has taken to the spiritual battlefield. The mind not centered on the
                          spiritual has much recourse, and multiple choices to resolve, but
                          nothing becomes fixed as a solution.

                          The wisdom in meditation is always consistent (you present the same
                          problem again, and you get the same answer again), the answer hurts
                          no one, and is really hard to do the new behavior to change the
                          personality (and work out karma). The intellectual mind thinks of
                          many solutions to a problem, which to choose? The emotional mind can
                          be in chaos with all the feelings that surface, but the feelings come
                          to one point with enough meditation, and then come the offering up of
                          the issue to receive the wisdom on how to proceed.
                        • westwindwood2003
                          ... battlefield ... a ... he ... archery ... then ... other, ... Lots ... to ... in ... really ... enjoyment ... part ... family ... this ... to ... right ...
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 6, 2008
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                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, "westwindwood2003"
                            <westwindwood2003@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Chapter I
                            > The Bhagavad Gita, which I shall call the Gita hereafter has been
                            > called the Bible of India. The setting of the Gita is a
                            battlefield
                            > where Sri Krishna has promised to help both sides. There are two
                            > choices; one side gets the wherewithal of earthly endeavors while
                            > Krishna offers to place his unarmed self on the other side. Arjuna
                            > is first and chooses Krishna, and Duryodhana is relieved because he
                            > gets all the resources of the world. So, the armies gather on the
                            > field where previous religious sacrifices have made the battlefield
                            a
                            > spiritual place. When Duryodhana sees the army Arjuna is part of,
                            he
                            > notes strong warriors, but states he also has the same on his side
                            > and so states to his preceptor, a Brahman who has also taught
                            archery
                            > to some of those in the army associated with Arjuna. Duryodhana
                            then
                            > goes on to brag about how huge his army is and how meager the
                            other,
                            > but uses words that can also mean huge and disorganized, thrown
                            > together willy-nilly, compared to compact and well disciplined.
                            Lots
                            > of horn blowing commences on both sides, then Arjuna asks Krishna
                            to
                            > place the war chariot between the armies so that he can have a look
                            > at the enemy and then sees relatives on both sides. Arjuna falters
                            in
                            > his resolution to fight. The Gita is allegorical so Arjuna is
                            really
                            > faced with going for the spiritual approach to life and he has to
                            > decide. The spiritual against the human condition with its
                            enjoyment
                            > and pleasures and all his relatives in the army of Duryodhana as
                            part
                            > of that human condition is the choice. Arjuna thinks it would be a
                            > sin to slay these miscreants, but the next few verses go on to say
                            > how nasty these folks really are and how impiety would corrupt
                            family
                            > life if they were allowed to win. Overwhelmed with sorrow for the
                            > coming fight, Arjuna puts down his weapons.
                            >
                            > Chapter II
                            > Arjuna is overcome with compassion, distress and tears; and needs
                            > help. The Lord now speaks for the first time in the Gita and at
                            this
                            > point the real Gita proper is initiated with a statement of the
                            > fundamental message: Arjuna, do not be without strength and yield
                            to
                            > weakness of the heart. Stand up oh scorcher of foes. So Arjuna
                            says:
                            > Lord who is slayer of foes, how can I attack the people in the
                            > opposition who are worthy of worship, one who is verily the
                            > embodiment of chastity and self denial, and the other a man of
                            right
                            > conduct who was my teacher? Wealth and desires of this world would
                            > be tainted with blood. Which is best I do not know, they
                            conquering
                            > us or we them. After slaying them we should not care to live.
                            With
                            > nature overpowered by taint of pity, with mind in confusion about
                            > duty, decisively say what I should do as I am your disciple and You
                            > my refuge. This is significant because before this Arjuna was
                            > concerned about pleasant things, learning, wealth, culture, wives,
                            > progeny, kingdom. Now, he has reoriented to want what is good and
                            > this is a prerequisite for enlightenment. Arjuna says: Nothing I
                            see
                            > would remove grief that dries up my senses, even if I have the most
                            > prosperous kingdom and dominion over the celestials.
                            >
                            > Now a minister to the king whose army is fighting against the army
                            > Arjuna is in has the temporary ability to tell all of the foregoing
                            > to the king even though remote from the battlefield. The minister
                            now
                            > goes on to describe Arjuna as not wanting to fight; however, Arjuna
                            > is one who can control the need for sleep, and this signifies he
                            has
                            > some level of attainment with matters of meditation, and therefore
                            he
                            > is bound to make the correct choice. Arjuna is unlikely to call
                            off
                            > the war although the king wishes he would do so.
                            >
                            > Hrishikesa (Krishna) smiles and now speaks the words to the
                            > despondent one between the two armies.
                            >
                            > Those who should not be grieved for, you have grieved for, although
                            > you have words of wisdom. For the dead, the living, the wise
                            grieve
                            > not. Here Arjuna does not possess the first characteristic of a
                            > Yogi, the integration of thought, speech and action and he is
                            warned
                            > about loosing yoga. Bodies come and go, but the Atman exists both
                            > past and future. The soul in this body experiences childhood, youth
                            > and old age, then moves to another body. The enlightened know this
                            > and death is OK.
                            >
                            > (Chapter II to be continued later)
                            >
                          • westwindwood2003
                            A little background first. Prakriti or the phenomenal universe is delineated in the Vedic teaching. The Vedas identify the phenomenal universe so completely
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 3, 2008
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                              A little background first. Prakriti or the phenomenal universe is
                              delineated in the Vedic teaching. The Vedas identify the phenomenal
                              universe so completely that the phenomenal and Vedas are considered
                              the same essence. The three Gunas are Sattva, Rajas and Tamas and
                              constitute the Vedas. Sattva is an illumination shining forth from
                              the individual through knowledge, Rajas characteristics are greed and
                              selfish activities and Tamas inactivity, delusion, recklessness and
                              darkness. The three Gunas compete with each other, create unbalance,
                              and cause the propagation of the phenomenal universe.

                              What does one then do? The Key is Yoga. In other words, do your
                              meditation, offer up the work that is yours, perform the prescribed
                              duty revealed to you and do not desire results one way or the other,
                              just do the requested action found in meditation. In this way you
                              will not be a producer of karma. The Gita states:

                              45. Deal with the three attributes, the Vedas. Be without these three
                              attributes Oh Arjuna, free from the pairs of opposites, ever remaining
                              in the Sattva (goodness) free from (the thought of) material
                              acquisition and preservation, established in the self.


                              46. In this work, the only right thing for you is not desire the
                              fruits of your effort. Also at any time, do not let this not wanting
                              fruits of action be the motive because in not having your attachment
                              you would let there be an inaction.

                              Yoga eventually takes a person beyond the three Gunas so that even
                              Sattva eventually fades as all is worked out.

                              48. Steadfast in yoga, perform attachment abandonment, Oh Dhananjaya,
                              in success and failure be the same as yoga is called having an
                              evenness of mind.

                              However, this can only be attained by meditation. It is not attained
                              by act of willpower as the goings on are the doings of the Lord
                              speaking within and the one who meditates is in the position of a
                              willing servant. Just do it.
                            • westwindwood2003
                              49. Action not directed by yoga is by far most inferior. Oh Dhananjaya, the self-seekers, those taking advantage of opportunities without regard for the
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 5, 2008
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                                49. Action not directed by yoga is by far most
                                inferior. Oh Dhananjaya, the self-seekers,
                                those taking advantage of opportunities without
                                regard for the consequences, have a wretched
                                existence.

                                The unaware person lives their life seeking
                                pleasure, trying to get head. Perhaps something
                                happens, some calamity or maybe it is just a
                                realization that life is not right. There is
                                religion to turn to, religious works and teachers.
                                Ultimately though, there is the complete giving
                                over to God, a total offering up of what one is
                                striving for spiritually and seeking guidance in
                                deep meditation, a discovery through yoga of
                                the path to resolution of it all.

                                50. With meditation comes a calmness of mind,
                                tranquility. Also, there is wisdom that comes
                                showing the actions, the feelings even, that
                                needs to be acted upon to grow. There is
                                perfection in this life following this path.
                                Devote yourself to yoga. Good and evil deeds,
                                how do I know which is which? Pursuing
                                either should eventually cease. But, it will take
                                decades to evolve through it all because it is
                                hard to change ones personality.

                                Intellectually we have a feeling for what is
                                right and wrong, but this is action not directed
                                by yoga and is inferior. For instance, I may
                                help someone and that seems right to me;
                                however, I might be keeping that person from
                                discovering the path because they may not
                                realize life needs working on. If I do not help
                                them when I easily can do so, that might seem
                                wrong. The answer to the proper action is
                                revealed in meditation.

                                51. The wise, those who meditate, let go of the
                                desire, lets answers come when no ego
                                intervenes, discerns proper action and go
                                beyond evil, eventually evolving into the nature
                                that frees them from being bound to birthing
                                again.
                              • westwindwood2003
                                What happens to a yogi? These are active and passive. The following is passive because it just happens without effort. 51. When understanding from your
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 6, 2008
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                                  What happens to a yogi? These are active
                                  and passive. The following is passive
                                  because it just happens without effort.

                                  51. When understanding from your practice
                                  comes, intellectual delusion is bypassed.
                                  You are indifferent to what others said in the
                                  past and what you shall hear in the future.

                                  This just happens automatically because of
                                  the immediate (in this very instant)
                                  Guidance. That Guidance is all there is; the
                                  intellect is inactive.

                                  52. Your intellect analyzes what others say
                                  and you can be confused by the many
                                  options. The yogi; however, can stand
                                  immovable in the Self with steady
                                  understanding of the course of action
                                  needed.
                                • medit8ionsociety
                                  ... Yo Westwindwood, This and the previous Gita posting are, as usual, very great pointings. I like the term Guidance (with the capital G) as we often see
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 7, 2008
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                                    "westwindwood2003" <westwindwood2003@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > What happens to a yogi? These are active
                                    > and passive. The following is passive
                                    > because it just happens without effort.
                                    >
                                    > 51. When understanding from your practice
                                    > comes, intellectual delusion is bypassed.
                                    > You are indifferent to what others said in the
                                    > past and what you shall hear in the future.
                                    >
                                    > This just happens automatically because of
                                    > the immediate (in this very instant)
                                    > Guidance. That Guidance is all there is; the
                                    > intellect is inactive.
                                    >
                                    > 52. Your intellect analyzes what others say
                                    > and you can be confused by the many
                                    > options. The yogi; however, can stand
                                    > immovable in the Self with steady
                                    > understanding of the course of action
                                    > needed.
                                    >
                                    Yo Westwindwood,
                                    This and the previous Gita posting are,
                                    as usual, very great pointings. I like
                                    the term Guidance (with the capital G) as
                                    we often see "Grace" used similarly, but
                                    with the term Guidance we also get the
                                    concept that a definitive understanding
                                    takes place that transcends the mind's usual
                                    "it could be like this, or it could be
                                    like that" tendency. This allows the "Thy
                                    will be done" reality to take us over (and
                                    inner) and we then automatically let events
                                    of our life proceed as they may without
                                    any inner chattering that commonly brings
                                    us negativity (takes our peace away). And
                                    of course, we all are "Yogi's" in spite of
                                    whatever masks cover this true identity.
                                    So these wise teaching apply to all of us.
                                    Thanks again for sharing.
                                    Peace and blessings,
                                    Bob
                                  • westwindwood2003
                                    I cannot take very much credit. The book I am using gives a word for word translation from the Sanskrit. The word order takes a little getting used to and
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 7, 2008
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                                      I cannot take very much credit. The book I am using gives a word for
                                      word translation from the Sanskrit. The word order takes a little
                                      getting used to and sometimes the English words that are chosen by the
                                      author have several definitions and the author sometime uses the more
                                      obscure definition, so I find I have to use a dictionary some to get
                                      the real meaning. What I then do is try and relate that word for word
                                      English translation to my own meditation experience so that I can
                                      express that translation in a way that is more understandable I hope.
                                      What I find wonderful about the Gita is here are these words that in
                                      a condensed kind of way outlines the spiritual experience, like
                                      lecture notes that a teacher can expand on. Since I meditate myself,
                                      I feel that I can do the subject some justice, but I sometimes wonder
                                      if there might be better words than the ones I use.
                                      --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, medit8ionsociety .

                                      > Yo Westwindwood,
                                      > This and the previous Gita posting are,
                                      > as usual, very great pointings. I like
                                      > the term Guidance (with the capital G) as
                                      > we often see "Grace" used similarly, but
                                      > with the term Guidance we also get the
                                      > concept that a definitive understanding
                                      > takes place that transcends the mind's usual
                                      > "it could be like this, or it could be
                                      > like that" tendency. This allows the "Thy
                                      > will be done" reality to take us over (and
                                      > inner) and we then automatically let events
                                      > of our life proceed as they may without
                                      > any inner chattering that commonly brings
                                      > us negativity (takes our peace away). And
                                      > of course, we all are "Yogi's" in spite of
                                      > whatever masks cover this true identity.
                                      > So these wise teaching apply to all of us.
                                      > Thanks again for sharing.
                                      > Peace and blessings,
                                      > Bob
                                      >
                                    • suman sk
                                      Thanks for continued posting on the wisdom of Geeta. I read it everyday and find a wonderful insight into the true learning. It is a science in itself but only
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 8, 2008
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                                        Thanks for continued posting on the wisdom of Geeta.

                                        I read it everyday and find a wonderful insight into the true learning.

                                        It is a science in itself but only for the beleiver.

                                        Om and God bless all of us

                                         

                                        Surendra K



                                        --- On Sat, 6/7/08, westwindwood2003 <westwindwood2003@...> wrote:

                                        From: westwindwood2003 <westwindwood2003@...>
                                        Subject: [Meditation Society of America] Re: Bhagavad Gita 12
                                        To: meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Saturday, June 7, 2008, 11:53 PM

                                        I cannot take very much credit. The book I am using gives a word for
                                        word translation from the Sanskrit. The word order takes a little
                                        getting used to and sometimes the English words that are chosen by the
                                        author have several definitions and the author sometime uses the more
                                        obscure definition, so I find I have to use a dictionary some to get
                                        the real meaning. What I then do is try and relate that word for word
                                        English translation to my own meditation experience so that I can
                                        express that translation in a way that is more understandable I hope.
                                        What I find wonderful about the Gita is here are these words that in
                                        a condensed kind of way outlines the spiritual experience, like
                                        lecture notes that a teacher can expand on. Since I meditate myself,
                                        I feel that I can do the subject some justice, but I sometimes wonder
                                        if there might be better words than the ones I use.
                                        --- In meditationsocietyof america@yahoogro ups.com, medit8ionsociety .

                                        > Yo Westwindwood,
                                        > This and the previous Gita posting are,
                                        > as usual, very great pointings. I like
                                        > the term Guidance (with the capital G) as
                                        > we often see "Grace" used similarly, but
                                        > with the term Guidance we also get the
                                        > concept that a definitive understanding
                                        > takes place that transcends the mind's usual
                                        > "it could be like this, or it could be
                                        > like that" tendency. This allows the "Thy
                                        > will be done" reality to take us over (and
                                        > inner) and we then automatically let events
                                        > of our life proceed as they may without
                                        > any inner chattering that commonly brings
                                        > us negativity (takes our peace away). And
                                        > of course, we all are "Yogi's" in spite of
                                        > whatever masks cover this true identity.
                                        > So these wise teaching apply to all of us.
                                        > Thanks again for sharing.
                                        > Peace and blessings,
                                        > Bob
                                        >


                                      • WestWindWood
                                        54. Arjuna asks a question about the qualities (steady of disposition, consistent in vision) of a sage, (who has merged with the Creator, the nature of that
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
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                                          54. Arjuna asks a question about the
                                          qualities (steady of disposition,
                                          consistent in vision) of a sage, (who
                                          has merged with the Creator, the
                                          nature of that which underlies all
                                          existence). 

                                          The sage, merged into the Creator
                                          beyond the normal conscious state,
                                          we could say in deep meditation,
                                          experiences the qualities of the
                                          Creator.  The sage has, over may
                                          years of evolution, taken these
                                          experiences and incorporated in him,
                                          through proper action and behavior,
                                          the qualities of the Creator so that
                                          the sage became Self. 

                                          This seems like A LOT OF HARD
                                          WORK! But in reality, it is just a
                                          giving up of all those qualities of
                                          personality that are not of the divine
                                          nature.  It seems an agony at the
                                          time, but is nothing looking back,
                                          and why was that I clung to so
                                          important anyway, but it was.


                                          55. Sri Bhagavan (Krishna) said:
                                          All desires of the mind (of ones very
                                          heart) are cast off, Oh Partha, by
                                          becoming the Self by working with
                                          the Self in steady wisdom.

                                          Contact with the Self in meditation
                                          brings a steady wisdom, Oh what to
                                          do about my present situation and
                                          how am I going to work this out,
                                          God's will be done, and so it goes
                                          with an answer coming to me so that
                                          I become more the Self by practicing
                                          proper behavior and letting the Self
                                          emerge in place of the misguided
                                          personality that I have begun with.



                                          56. The mind is unshaken in
                                          adversity, and in pleasure, there is no
                                          latching onto and wanting to retain. 
                                          Free from attachment, fear and anger
                                          is the sage poised in wisdom.

                                          The wisdom found in meditation
                                          allows the sage these characteristics. 
                                          This is just something that happens,
                                          a symptom, not something that the
                                          sage tries to grasp and become, it just
                                          happens because one meditates.


                                        • aideenmck
                                          Belated thanks for these posts helping us to understand the Bhagavad Gita, about which I was almost totally ignorant. Recently, I ve been reading Ram Dass s
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 11, 2008
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                                            Belated thanks for these posts helping us to understand the Bhagavad
                                            Gita, about which I was almost totally ignorant. Recently, I've been
                                            reading Ram Dass's "Paths to God: Living the Bhagavad Gita" - it,
                                            too, is a revelation. Also reading Rumi's poetry, the Coleman Barks
                                            translation. And meeting Theravadin monks, listening to their dharma
                                            talks. Sometimes I feel as if I'm perceiving everything for the
                                            first time. (Where have I been?)
                                            Aideen

                                            --- In meditationsocietyofamerica@yahoogroups.com, WestWindWood
                                            <westwindwood2003@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > 54. Arjuna asks a question about the
                                            > qualities (steady of disposition,
                                            > consistent in vision) of a sage, (who
                                            > has merged with the Creator, the
                                            > nature of that which underlies all
                                            > existence).
                                            >
                                            > The sage, merged into the Creator
                                            > beyond the normal conscious state,
                                            > we could say in deep meditation,
                                            > experiences the qualities of the
                                            > Creator. The sage has, over may
                                            > years of evolution, taken these
                                            > experiences and incorporated in him,
                                            > through proper action and behavior,
                                            > the qualities of the Creator so that
                                            > the sage became Self.
                                            >
                                            > This seems like A LOT OF HARD
                                            > WORK! But in reality, it is just a
                                            > giving up of all those qualities of
                                            > personality that are not of the divine
                                            > nature. It seems an agony at the
                                            > time, but is nothing looking back,
                                            > and why was that I clung to so
                                            > important anyway, but it was.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 55. Sri Bhagavan (Krishna) said:
                                            > All desires of the mind (of ones very
                                            > heart) are cast off, Oh Partha, by
                                            > becoming the Self by working with
                                            > the Self in steady wisdom.
                                            >
                                            > Contact with the Self in meditation
                                            > brings a steady wisdom, Oh what to
                                            > do about my present situation and
                                            > how am I going to work this out,
                                            > God's will be done, and so it goes
                                            > with an answer coming to me so that
                                            > I become more the Self by practicing
                                            > proper behavior and letting the Self
                                            > emerge in place of the misguided
                                            > personality that I have begun with.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 56. The mind is unshaken in
                                            > adversity, and in pleasure, there is no
                                            > latching onto and wanting to retain.
                                            > Free from attachment, fear and anger
                                            > is the sage poised in wisdom.
                                            >
                                            > The wisdom found in meditation
                                            > allows the sage these characteristics.
                                            > This is just something that happens,
                                            > a symptom, not something that the
                                            > sage tries to grasp and become, it just
                                            > happens because one meditates.
                                            >
                                          • westwindwood2003
                                            I do not know Sanskrit and so I know that I am not going to always get a translation correct. If I do make a mistake, I do not feel that I am causing any harm
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 14, 2008
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                                              I do not know Sanskrit and so I know
                                              that I am not going to always get a
                                              translation correct. If I do make a
                                              mistake, I do not feel that I am
                                              causing any harm because I just wind
                                              up commenting on a different aspect
                                              of meditation than what the Gita is
                                              referring to at that point. However,
                                              if I do get it wrong on a particular
                                              passage, I would like to hear about it
                                              if someone knows I am wrong
                                              because I might miss some facet of
                                              meditation that I might not touch on
                                              later that is important.

                                              57. Life's many experiences evoke
                                              thoughts and feelings. However,
                                              rejoicing in the good and hatred of
                                              the bad is not in the personality of
                                              the person who dwells, resides, in
                                              Wisdom.

                                              Being with that Wisdom, the one on
                                              the path feels the situation is not
                                              defined as good or bad, but God's
                                              will, and so petitions for the
                                              Knowledge of right behavior to deal
                                              wisely in the circumstance.

                                              58. A tortoise withdraws head and
                                              limbs when disturbed, and a Yogi,
                                              when confronted with an attractive
                                              sight or painful scene reflexively
                                              pulls in to contemplate the situation
                                              knowing a moment's reflection
                                              brings Wisdom.

                                              59. Seeing an object of desire, a
                                              person remains abstinent upon
                                              leaving the longing behind. Even a
                                              hint of the desirable reaction drops
                                              away from the person who perceives
                                              the Supreme.
                                            • westwindwood2003
                                              60. The wise person strives for perfection; turbulent situations though, the chaos of the day, violently carries away the mind. OK, so don t hesitate to
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                                                60. The wise person strives for
                                                perfection; turbulent situations
                                                though, the chaos of the day,
                                                violently carries away the mind.

                                                OK, so don't hesitate to meditate!

                                                61. The yogi controls the chaos of
                                                the day, these thoughts restrained
                                                and joined together. Focus on God
                                                and the yogi's thoughts are settled.

                                                The turbulent thoughts of the yogi
                                                are allowed to surface in meditation,
                                                and the calming effect of the
                                                meditation experience affects a
                                                change in the mind (this just happens
                                                without any attempt at control). With
                                                the calming, the focus can them be
                                                brought to God, who then brings
                                                wisdom allowing the thoughts to be
                                                settled.

                                                62. Objects of the senses, (what
                                                causes the turbulent thoughts of a
                                                person) cause strong attachment
                                                because a person has the propensity
                                                for that particular object of the
                                                senses. From this attachment comes
                                                desire and from desire a kind of
                                                anger, of that is mine,
                                                possessiveness.

                                                Attachment caused by their own
                                                personality, or perhaps we could say
                                                from their previous karma gives
                                                material to work on in meditation.

                                                63. From anger comes delusion and
                                                from this delusion comes a forgetting
                                                of facts (memory of what really
                                                happened or how things are), and
                                                this loss of reason with impetuous
                                                behavior, results in death.

                                                Why am I thinking of a motorcycle
                                                going 110 mph on a windy country
                                                road? Actually, this could be most
                                                anything and usually results in a visit
                                                from a police officer, or at best
                                                recognition of out of control feelings
                                                that need to be worked on in
                                                meditation.
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